I've seen this issue discussed on some other forums, and there are some misconceptions going around. I wanted to post this here since this seems to have a lot more traffic than the other boards I've seen it discussed.

The moderators at the NPGMC has said that the 77 cent downloads they are going to be selling are in Microsoft's proprietary WMA format with microsoft's latest proprietary DRM. That means that these tracks

- will not play on a Macintosh
- will not play on older versions of windows
- will not play on an iPod, even for windows users with iPods

Good thing I have a PC.

I think, as a business strategy, it's a cool idea.

This way he sells less downloads, fields more complaints and makes less mone...

Oh, hang on.

alandail said:

It's very easy to find a program that will convert from wma to mp3 - just type in wma to mp3 converter in a search engine. If you don't want to buy, you can just run a demo copy for a while... I don't know what the proprietary DRM is you mention, but someone always finds a way around any protection sooner or later...

metalorange said:

Right, but working your way around the DRM copy protection is ILLEGAL. Plus, this DRM protection probably will make it impossible to make a lawful copy for your personal use, perhabs even a back-up copy is not possible. Plus, the copy protected files will definitly come with a license securing that you will not own the copy/ file you paid for and restricting your use of the file in many more ways. And if you don't want to agree to that, bad luck... No new music for you!

metalorange said:

I believe the latest DRM from Microsoft prevents this. At least it hasn't been cracked yet according to the NPGMC moderators.

Abrazo said:

Which means for Macintosh users or iPod users to be able to listen to these files, they have to break the law.

in defence of prince it was posted on the NPGMC forum what people thought of WMA files downloads so i suppose people had the chance to let him know what they thought then. from what i remember there wasn't much negative responses when the mods suggested it

softandwet said:

it was suggested to a very limited audience. People need to let them know before it's too late that this approach is unacceptable.

Also, I don't think people realize the full implications.

You can play WMA files on a mac, but the latest Microsoft DRM does not support the macintosh
You can convert WMA files to MP3, but not with Microsoft's latest DRM

The only way to listen to these files on a Macintosh is to break the law
The only way to listen to these files on an iPod is to break the law
If you upgrade your computer every year, in 10 years, even if you stick with windows, your songs will expire, and you are locked into windows for your future computers if you don't want to lose your songs. That means that if you had bought music this way in the past, Purple Rain, Sign O the Times, Lovesexy, etc., would all have expired as you an only migrate them to a new computer a maximum of 10 times.
If you have multiple windows computers, you have to choose which one you're going to listen to these files on, you can't just stream them to your other computers, like your HTPC connected to your entertainment system, like you can with iTunes.

The more I learn about this, the more problems develop.

alandail said:

yeah that sounds so fucking shit i dont know how anyone on the npgmc mods etc cannot know this, thats ridiculous

alandail said:

Right and the same very possibly holds true for other users wanting to make a lawful (back-up) copy for their personal use.

softandwet said:

In reality it's often even worse than that. And it's no surprise to me that the NPGMC hasn't thought this through sufficiently.

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[This message was edited Wed Mar 3 8:24:14 2004 by Abrazo]

alandail said:

Just burn the wma-files to cdr with your wmp and ripp the cd to mp3. Not that difficult.
Solution nr.2: Install a convertor plug-in in your wmp, and convert the files to mp3 without drm.

Piece of cake.
I did this with the MSN NEWS-downloads which were also wma-files drm-protected.

vc40 said:

you can't do either of these on a macintosh because microsoft doesn't support support the macintosh with their latest DRM. The NEWS downloads did not use the latest DRM because they did work on a Macintosh, so don't be so sure solution 2 still works - Microsoft could certainly disable it with their DRM.

And as someone pointed out on another thread, bypassing the DRM is illegal under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998. So if you buy a file from the NPGMC and manage to get the file to work on your iPod, you break the law.

alandail said:

Can't speak for mac, sorry. I have a pc.

vc40 said:

can you speak to the fact that what you are suggesting doing is illegal due to the Digital Millennium Copyright Act? Can it possibly be that the same artist who actually released a single on Napster once now is so untrusting of his own fans that he's going to restrict what hardware can be used to listen to his music without violating the law?

Can it be that all windows users don't realize that a counter runs down each time they move to a new computer and when it runs out, they lose the rights to the songs too?

this pisses me off.

Why didn't he put his tracks with the i-Tunes music store..? (the biggest in the world, open to all users, PC, Unix, Mac..) He'd have got more money...and more pople could hear his music...

and the BIGGEST Mp3 player in the world by a HUGE fucking margin - the i-Pod wont be able to play these songs.

stupid wanker.

alandail said:

I don't know, but I would have thought the act of turning CDs into mp3s for using on an ipod is technically illegal - but everybody clearly does it without getting arrested!

I had a brief look at this Act you mention - it seems very complicated. Basically it makes it illegal to circumnavigate the protection on these files. A lot of people seem to be up in arms about this Act.

Firstly, it was an American Act, if you are not American, does it have any effect on non-americans? Has every country signed upto it? From my brief scan of it, it seems to have come about to allow companies to install protection software in their products - without the Act, they would have been infringing your public rights - so it's more for the legal benefit of the manufacturers to allow them to come up with ways to stop illegal trading of copies. It just happens to be broad enough to include other things.

Secondly, realistically, the cops are not going to pursue some individual who has converted some files into mp3s, as long as it is for personal use only. The police don't have a list of protected wma files in their car, and if they hear Prince's Musicology coming out of your car stereo, they aren't going to arrest you - they might have the right, but realistically it's not going to happen. I imagine every fan on here has a Prince bootleg somewhere - which is of course illegal, but they still got it...

I agree this file format is a pain and we should let that be known - but in the end, realistically it's going to stop no one from converting files into mp3s they can use - someone always cracks the software - yeah, it's illegal, but what you gonna do?

I remember years ago they were going to bring a law out to prevent you taping tv on videotape, they wanted you to destroy it after 24 hours! But it was of course unenforceable.

metalorange said:

so what you're saying is that it's okay with you if NPGMC sells songs that are illegal to listen on various kinds of hardware because people may figure out illegal solutions to the problem. For the record, it is NOT illegal to rip a non DRM protected CD you bought and listen to it on an iPod. It is, however, illegal to take a DRM protected computer song and through whatever means you can find, convert it into a non DRM protected computer file.

alandail said:

What I'm saying is, if the NPGMC wants to try and protect the illegal distribution of it's music, that's okay. They are within their rights to do that.

But if you feel the need to convert these files for personal use, although technically illegal, I think it is harmless because no is going to pursue the word of the law.

Do you have any bootlegs in your possession? I have the odd track for personal use. It's technically illegal, but I've made the choice to live with that, what about you?

metalorange said:

I don't own any bootlegs.

What you say makes no sense - you are saying Prince, who has been outspoken against bootlegs - even asking fans to send their bootlegs to him - now should ask his fans to break the law to listen to his legitimate releases?

How can it be harmless to require people to break the law.

I have a Mac from 1996 which does all I need it to. I am not that technologically savvy.

I won't be able to hear any new songs? Why am I even a member? Prince, you are slapping me in the face.

softandwet said:

If there were negative responses, the mods probably deleted them!!

alandail said:

Actually, if you ask me it's more like NPGMC is saying to the fans that if they don't have enough income to either already own a fairly new PC or be able to acquire one, then they could care less if they get to hear the music. The primary concern is the erroneously perceived threat of losing money due to piracy. (We all know how much money the club could rake in if they cared to.)

alandail said:

Requiring? Requiring? So Prince is holding a bop gun to your head and requiring you to break the law is he?

If you have a Mac and you're so worried about breaking the law then make it known to the NPGMC. They've been pretty responsive to those concerns in the past. Otherwise, find a friend who owns a PC and burn yourself an audio cd of the tunes.

theblueangel said:

Well, that I agree with completely - Steve Jobs figured this out - you make it easy for people to buy music online and they will. If NPGMC wants their own music store, then they should really have unprotected AAC, unprotected WMA and unprotected MP3. Let the customer get the format they want directly from the store. Why put up barriers that will cause people to either say forget it or decide it's easier to steal a copy in the format they want than to pay for it and have to try to convert it.

Alandail, I wish you were a music executive...you'd be a hella rich one.

Universaluv said:

If I

- go to a friends house and buy a song from NPGMC
- have my friend burn the song to a CD
- take the CD to my house and RIP a copy into iTunes

I've just broken the law before I even copy it to my iPod. Copy it to my iPod and I've broken the law again. The current planned policy requires macintosh users to break the law to listen to the music they are selling.

The reason I'm posting about it here is to get more people to post about it over there.