rdhull said:

what, you think i don't know that already? that's not what i'm aiming for--i ain't askin for sites to come back or what-not. i'm askin for some fuckin respect towards the (remaining) fanbase.


won't know for sure till we speak out, right? besides the thing with uptown, as far as i know nobody within the p community has taken a stand against the bullcrap p's been flingin around. it's been pretty much relegated to online chatter within fansites and stuff. no real action.

Handclapsfingasnapz said:

You're absolutely right. It should be serious. I say flood NPGMC's contacts (from as many e-mail accounts as we all have) and express how horrible we fans feel he's treating and has treated us over time. To release substandard products to the general market (including some items that were originally advertised as being club exclusives) while cracking down on sites that deal in info about his earlier, better work is just foolishness.

It's like Prince is in denial that his earlier work was better than his current drek. Even worse, it seems to be to the extent that he doesn't even want a record of those unreleased, superior tracks.

Attacking the people who keep him afloat and remotely relevant is a stupid, stupid practice for any businessman. Our corporate expression of that to him should send a strong signal.

One he'll probably disregard.

ThreadBare said:

true...


true again--but nobody's ever backfired against it, so to speak. strike and counter-strike, see what i'm sayin?

ThreadBare said:

And he will disregard it..and the attention it brings might be in his favor as well..little by little u see artists talking about their true feelings of downloading their music so u think they wont understand his stance on sites being taken down etc? But then again this may open a new door as well. Sure there are download friendly artists but few and far between I bet...plus I do understand that its about the passion and fandom that is created that is being torn asumder..thats different imo and understandable. But were most of those sites using unoffical music or its content?

.
[This message was edited Sun Jan 18 20:43:09 PST 2004 by rdhull]

See, that's one thing that would have to be done in this kind of a "dissent" project - there'd have to be a really specific description of these sites, so folks not in the know can't be manipulated into thinking these were like download sites where there were demos and live concert downloads flyin' left and right all over the place. To the best of my understanding, these sites simply listed known bootleg recordings and the quality of the recordings, right?

rdhull said:

that's only half right. i really have lost my desire to see him perform live. i've lost my desire to follow his every move. frankly, i've lost my interest in anything except the music. and since i dislike his behaviour and unappreciative attitude so much, i really will not pay for anything he releases. i never bought the aladdin dvd. i don't plan to. i have the audio version of it thanks to a fellow orger who burnt it for me. that is really the bottom line. i would never be interested in going to another celebration (and i think there will be another one). and i have no desire o join the club again since i've no interest in concerts or purchasing merchandise.he has honestly turned me off. if you check my profile you will see very few posts in this forum. i only pop in now and again (more so when a topic, like this, catches my attention) but usually i stick around music:non prince. its more fun. i think if people are really tired of his behaviour, it may just be time to stop worrying about it. it is supposed to be entertainment. if its doing more aggravating than entertaining, why spend the time and cash on it. i mean, its not like he's a family member that you kind of HAVE to put up with. he's a millionaire, egotistical, holier than thou artist.

Anxiety said:

And to many artists and the industry thats a nono...and where it may backfire. I would think it would cocnetrate on sites that had no unofficial or copyrighted material if that can even be possible. Or sites that had no boot info at all at least.

Anxiety said:

yup--smallclub.org and g2p merely had information about the material, they weren't vendors of the stuff.

Handclapsfingasnapz said:

I think that would have to be made really clear in any kind of expression - through repetition, really big letters, whatever - it's important that's not misconstrued.

SassyBritches said:[quote]

rdhull said:

and that was my botom line..I never said folks would support him financially..i said they would be there still downloadin or burnin the current released material...nobody has the balls to say "I quit" completely becasue of principle.



That aint saying much because there are those who are asskissers so to speak or just regulars who feel that way



yeahj well you just had this acct since dec 17 so that aint really sayin much..it isnt as if you have been here even ahalf year to assess that amount of Prince related content that u choose not to take part in etc..but I understand what u are saying



Isnt that the funiest part of all of this lol?

I'm sure CJ would be more than willing to help spread the word on what a tyrant Prince is being and the upset his actions are causing within his fanbase.

PrimordialOoze said:

yeah that will really cause trouble for him

rdhull said:

I do realize Prince couldn't give half a shit what CJ writes about him.

I was mostly kidding. I'll be more clear next time.

Thanks for the sarcasm though.

Okay, so what happens now? The thread title is "Stand, up organize" so let's get to it...

I guess first, who's our audience? Prince? Other listeners of Prince's music? Music community at large?

Second, what EXACTLY are the issues? Does this movement have a mission statement?

Third, what do we hope to accomplish? Anything, or do we just want to express ourselves?

Forth, how big we wanna make this?

Do we keep spinning? or do we do something?

Dansa,
I just posted something like this on the news article, basically suggesting that we need:

A) A lawyer who is on the ORG (or at least a fan)l to help G2P or smallclub ... it appears to us that NPG has no case but they need someone to help them pro bono. THere has GOT TO be some child of the 80's working at a copyright or entertainment law firm out there!!!

B) Some PR folks to help get the word out to the media about what is happening. Has anyone on here done press releases??? All we gotta do is send them to the right places and get the story picked up.

I'm in Advertising/Research... maybe we could do a survey and include those results in the press release (i.e. 90% of Prince fans think this action is bad... say it will affect their future Prince purchases etc.) I'd be happy to work on that end of it.

I think the legal and PR aspects are the ones that would have the biggest impact.

And as someone pointed out, March is a great time.

AND BY THE WAY...
to the people who keep posting annoying comments like "shut up y'all you know you are going to buy his next whatever, go to this concert"... all you're doing is projecting your own feelings on to everyone else.

I have every P recording up through and including Come; I used to call Warner Bros in the 80's to find out release dates of future projects...etc... but I gave up after Come.

I saw every tour from PR to Lovesexy, and most more than 1 show. But I have let him come to my town (NYC) and didn't even blink ... I had no interest in seeing him anymore.

Nevetheless, I spent a boatload of $$ to get my ass to the Family Jamm and it was worth every last cent!!! I'm glad he didnt' show up and take over.

I come to this site to discuss related artists and P's music from when it was still interesting. Just cuz we're here and care about his music doesn't mean we blindly accept everything he does.

So please stop telling everyone else how we feel or why we do what we do. Thanks.

The audience should be Prince and his people, Prince fans and "fams", music fans in general, the pop music press, and anyone else who would take an interest in the matter at hand.

The mission statement or thesis or argument or whatever you wanna call it is something that should be well-thought out and carefully worded. It should be written as diplomatically as possible, erring on compassionate generosity to the folks we're criticizing. The more considerate and solid the message, the harder it is to shoot full of holes with semantic BS.

I would hope that any such "demonstration" by fans would lead to an acknowledgment or a rational dialog at the very least, and an apology at the very most. Why an apology? What does NPG/Paisley/Prince have to apologize for? For the mixed messages and heavyhanded actions sent to his fans over the years - on the one hand, it's about "love 4 one another" and on the other hand it's about "cease and desist". On one hand, it's about blithely namechecking D'Angelo's favorite bootleg track in "Crystal Ball", and on the other hand NPGMC club members are discouraged from even MENTIONING vault track titles. What's it gonna be? Warm and fuzzy or authoritarian and cold? Is the music truly free, or is it freer for some than it is for others?

Maybe some clarification - a "state of the union" regarding NPG's position on bootlegs within the fan community - NO princebonics, NO "symbolic" flash animations - just a down and dirty "this is how we want it", spelled out in plain english - would be nice.

Of course, in a perfect world, the man would acknowledge the damage has already been done and there's tons of unreleased stuff floating around out there, and most of it has worked toward making him the legend he is today - even among the non-Prince-geek public, folks think of his bootleg culture in much the same way they think of Springsteen, the Grateful Dead, etc. - and that only serves to BOOST his reputation as a musical legend. He would just own up to the fact that it's out there, it's been heard, and the only way to beat the boots is to provide an alternative.

But it's not a perfect world, and the man's stubborn and we know that.

So maybe we just want to accomplish something very simple: To make our disappointment regarding the site shutdowns heard.

How big do we wanna make it? "Big" is a relative term. I think it should be noticed if it's going to be worth anyone's time. It's not difficult to point the music press to something like this, though if they bite or care is another thing altogether.

Do we do something? Well, what do we do, and who wants to do it?

GaryMF said:

rdhull is not projecting--just speaking from experience of how folks always say this and still do that...

GaryMF said:

I've done quite a bit of PR in the past.

Just Say No.

When you get a letter from Prince's camp telling you to remove your site, and you know damn well your site is perfectly legit, send them nice letter telling them to fuck off.

It's a waste of time for them to even try to follow through if they have no case to begin with.

If they contact your web host instead and try to spook them, make sure you call your hosting provider and explain the situation thoroughly. Also, let them know that if they do remove your site, you will make it a point to spread the word about their absurd policies and standards.

Maybe as part of whatever statement is made, an accompanying legal fund could be started in which folks can PayPal money to an account that would go towards future sitemasters who DO choose to say no to the cease and desist orders.

I'm sure the legalities/technicalities of setting up such a fund would be a pain in the ass, but I'm also willing to bet there are folks on here who know how to muddle through it.

Handclapsfingasnapz said:

Speak for yourself! I am fully in support of him shutting down anything that promotes bootlegs, regardless of whether they are selling them or not.

They are legally, morally and ethically wrong. Pure and simple. This is one fan that is not tired of it. Good on him I say in pursuing it and sticking by it.

Without us he's nothing! That is bullshit. It is the officially released material that without sales effects him. The sites are getting closed down because they promote boots. His image was used on a site that whilst not selling boots directly promoted them such as guide2prince and they have been dealt with accordingly.

His material that is not officially released is not yours to have. It is theft pure and simple. I loved the story of him walking into a store picking up a pile of boots, saying they were his and walking out with them.

67TBirdHeartAttack said:

Since you apparently don't live in the US, please do some research on the First Ammendment to the US Constitution, specifically the part about "Freedom of Speech" and then explain how G2P or smallclub were legally wrong. Discussing something is not illegal.

Now... when it comes to "ethics" or "morality," these are different subjects, much harder to agree upon, but certainly NOT subject to legal action or control, at least not in this country.

And out of curiousity, shall we assume you have never, do not, and never plan to listen any unreleased P track of any kind whatsoever??? Just curious, cuz based on your profile...being into all the fanclubs etc... that is really, really hard to believe. I'm just sayin'.

Peace.

rdhull said:

And sadly rd is right.

The larger majority of people will let off steam for awhile when something Prince has done has angered them and they'll complain about things, but in the end they'll go to the concerts, the Celebrations, fork money over to the NPGMC, etc. because they're worried that if they don't, they might miss out on something good. Not to mention that like Handclaps said, Prince doesn't seem to really want listen to what fans have to say.

Then of course there are always the blind sheep that will roll over and take *anything* he says or does.

Prince knows this & counts on it, and that's why he continues pulling the stuff he does.

It would be a historic moment in Prince's career of there was a "fan revolt" of some sort. IF one ever really happened, I for one can't even begin to speculate on Prince's response or reaction. I'm sure he would be stunned and what the end result of the fans' efforts, if any, would be is impossible to say.

Such a thing would have to involve a HUGE chunk of his fansbase to be effective, however, and I maybe I am way too negative but I don't believe the necessary number of fans needed to make an impact would possess the willpower to not buy his CDs, or attend the shows or whatever, once Prince started dangling enticing carrots in front of them.

I know there are some that wouldn't give in but too many fans would because in the end, once that music starts playing or he climbs up onto that stage, their resolve melts and all they hear is the music and that's all that matters. The fact that he's a huge dick 99.999% of the time becomes insignificant.

67TBird, based on your logic, true crime books and biographies of criminals and tyrants should be gathered up and burned - after all, these books go into great detail to describe murder, torture, genocide, fascism, etc.

I mean, these books aren't actually COMMITTING these crimes, but they're discussing them in a way that often leaves little to the imagination - and that's just as bad, right?

So we should set to getting rid of books like Truman Capote's "In Cold Blood", Vincent Bugliosi's "Helter Skelter", and the entire library of literature detailing atrocities like the Holocaust, the Killing Fields of Cambodia, and even the horrible treatment of the Iraqi people alleged to have been commited by Saddam Hussein by our own government.

And while we're at it, we should probably ban the book "Fahrenheit 451", since it makes book burning out to be, like, a really bad thing.

People need to face it - the music is out there, it's been heard, and it's been discussed for quite some time now. Why wasn't D'Angelo being made an example of when he told Prince "Movie Star" was his favorite bootleg track? Why would Paisley Park invite celebration fans to make suggestions for a Crystal Ball II if we aren't "supposed to" have knowledge of such material?

Naw, sorry. You might be able celebrate double standards, but it just ain't in my wiring.

Reading this whole damn thing. Anxiety, you're really on the ball. If this comes together, I think you would be the perfect person to handle the written aspect of it. Your writing is detailed, honest and to the point. It won't leave anything to question when the counter-attacks start flying.

And now, in my own silent way, I'm going to protest by finishing my cover of "Extralovable".

GaryMF said:

I wasn't just INTO the fan clubs, I jointly ran The Revolution/New Power Generation UK based fanclub/fanzine. And we actively stood against bootlegs. And your assumptions are correct I do not, will not listen to any "unreleased" material. I did a very long time ago but learnt the error of my ways.

Anxiety said:

It could be said that it was a calculated move on PP's part. There is no denying the fact that the stuff is out there so use it to your best advantage. Find out what they really want, release it and take it out of the bootleggers hands. If people can access it more easily and cheaply and with guaranteed quality then which option are they going to choose?

67TBirdHeartAttack said:

Right. So why wasn't it released then? To prove a point? To hurt our feelings?

rdhull said:

Actually, international press does indeed pick up CJ's articles. Case in point: The "Door Knocking" incident, which spread globaly, quite fast.

Trust me. She knows about the current string of cease and desist "warnings", and ink will flow.