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Reply #60 posted 12/03/03 2:22pm

madartista

avatar

Supernova said:

Romance1600 said:

But really.

I think Prince is right on the nail in many respects in his lyrics. It is obvious, to me at least, that he craves to be taken seriously in his lyrics, and I can do that for an extent, when he spoke of freedom, love and sexuality, but when the preaching, dogma and judgementality came in, I think it spoils things.

TRC is like a 2nd wind, and I wonder what that 2nd wind might sound like without the dogma.

If you don't agree with me, I respect that, but at least have the courtesy to expound on your thoughts, don't just give a shitty two word answer. Tsk, tsk. wink

Spare me. The "shitty two word answer" was my umpteenth way of saying that many of you Prince fans take way too much of his PERSONAL LIFE too seriously. And if you don't like the dogma he's preaching, don't listen to his music - it'll prevent the obvious internal grief many of you seem to experience because of his own personal beliefs. I really can't take all the whining about his religious persuasion seriously considering he preached about illicit sex for years and not a peep out of the most vocal hypocritcal fans. His truth isn't yours, and yours isn't his, so be it. To arrogantly act as if you have The Truth and constantly judge him for not continuing to validate your truth for the rest of your fandomed life (just because you don't agree) is NO LESS arrogant and judgemental as you proclaim him to be, but you'll never have the backbone to admit it - the only difference is that you probably don't have a public platform for your dogma. So, you're damn right, I say, GET OVER IT, ALREADY.

Or just wallow in your whiny disappointment. Your choice.


No thanks. I take his PERSONAL LIFE so seriously because he presents it very strongly and very publicly. He makes his PERSONAL LIFE very much part of his work. I know his Truth isn't mine, and mine certainly isn't his. I respect that, but I also have no problem saying that I'm disappointed that this particular artist has chosen a path that is a radical departure from the world he created in previous works. It doesn't ruin it for me, but yes, it does disappoint. I don't wallow in that disappoinment, but it definitely creeps up on me when I hear certain works.
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Reply #61 posted 12/03/03 2:38pm

PrimordialOoze

OdysseyMiles said:

PrimordialOoze said:

OdysseyMiles said:


Most people think JWs are trying to change them or tell them that what they have is "better".


Yeah I wonder why that is?

hmm

It's a mystery how people get that impression, isn't it?


Sarcasm is a beautiful thing smile.
I figure people get that impression because they're being narrow-minded



You know what? That's a nice easy answer to throw out but I think it's a bit shortsighted.

I am not a narrowminded person. I do NOT feel one religion is "better" than another or that someone with a different belief than mine is "wrong", or that my own beliefs are the only truly "right" way to belive or worship. I respect each person's choice in such a deeply personal issue as religion and God.

I have never had a problem with the JW religion in and of itself. If the JW religion gives a person happiness and peace and fulfills their spiritual needs then I say good for them. Maybe I don't agree with the religion as a whole, but hey - respect my choices and I'll respect yours. And in the end, I realize I am not an authority on which religion is the only "right" one. I would never be so arrogant as to think I could make that judgement because WHO REALLY KNOWS that.

But after spending much time over at the NPGMC boards, in the chatroom, here, and through communications with JW via other means, I have seen firsthand a LOT of hypocrisy and a LOT of arrogance and intolerance, and that makes me SICK. The attitudes that seem to permeate (at least over at the club) regarding JWs is that they are right, and if you don't believe as they do you are ridiculed, stifled, and/or berated. It is a very divisive atmosphere. The way many of those self-proclaimed JWs over at the club speak to others and conduct themselves is so hypocritical I cannot believe it, coming for a RELIGIOUS group of people who one would think would try to live a life of tolerance, love and acceptance..just as God teaches (or so I thought).

So either those people are all very misrepresentive of the JW religion, or else the JW religion truly does use pushy tactics and has an arrogant, intolerant mindset of non-JWs. Which is it?

Cuz I ain't narrowminded, pal. I base my judgements on personal experience and on what I observe myself. And what I've observed as made me disgusted a number of times now.

In closing let me say that if Prince, or whoever, finds their spiritual needs most fully filled by the JW religion, that's great. But don't treat me as though I am beneath you, or that I'm "wrong" or doomed because I choose to be of another faith.
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Reply #62 posted 12/03/03 2:44pm

BinaryJustin

Religion is worse than any other drug.
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Reply #63 posted 12/03/03 3:13pm

Serious

avatar

katt said:

BKOOLBABY said:

I can only add one comment on this subject. Freedom of religion!

smile clapping dancing jig ur a star


Freedom of religion is an important issue, but so is freedom of speech and Prince and his NPGMC don't have a clue what that is about sad sigh sigh
With a very special thank you to Tina: Is hammer already absolute, how much some people verändern...ICH hope is never so I will be! And if, then I hope that I would then have wen in my environment who joins me in the A....
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Reply #64 posted 12/03/03 3:15pm

imnotsayinthis
just2bnasty

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

imnotsayinthisjust2bnasty said:

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

imnotsayinthisjust2bnasty said:

honestly, i'd rather hear him talk about something he believes in than sing about something he has no emotion for.


Case in point...Everywhere from TRC. Wow!

The main issue that I have had with all the JW stuff is the attempt at revisionist history. No amount of changing lyrics and deleting words from past music will change the facts of the past. It's like taking a family portrait and cutting out the father saying he never existed just because the parents got divorced.

As long as Prince moves forward, and not backward trying to paint false pictures, I'm happy. I wish he were the leader he once was too. But I'm happy that we still get music from the man and that I am my own leader.

i don't see how prince changing lyrics on updated versions of his songs is any different that tori amos making changes to the songs that appear on her greatest hits collection. the fact is, those songs may be indicative of how he felt at the time of writing them but not how he feels presently. if he releases updated and changed versions of the previous albums it is only a statement on his work growing up. i don't talk about the same things i did when i was a kid and i don't speak the same way either.

prince's choice to release edited versions doesn't stop us from listening to the original versions. it merely provides him with the piece of mind that comes along with doing something you feel you must do. he just happens to feel that he mus rectify a situation. i don't particularly agree with that personally but, at the end of the day, they are his songs and it is his money. if he wants to spend his money on electricity and distribution costs, so be it.



I'll tell you the reason it's different. Because it's feuled by a guilt trip. There is nothing to rectify. Changing lyrics to old songs won't make them reflect your current beliefs. Everyone already has the material as it was originally released. We all knew what he said and what he stood for.

I agree with you in that if Prince wants to waste his time, he's got the green light to do so. However this indicates a complete lack of logic IMO.

lack of your logic; perfectly logical to prince.

however, we know p can be quite illogical a lot of the time lol
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Reply #65 posted 12/03/03 3:52pm

Supernova

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madartista said:

Supernova said:

Romance1600 said:

But really.

I think Prince is right on the nail in many respects in his lyrics. It is obvious, to me at least, that he craves to be taken seriously in his lyrics, and I can do that for an extent, when he spoke of freedom, love and sexuality, but when the preaching, dogma and judgementality came in, I think it spoils things.

TRC is like a 2nd wind, and I wonder what that 2nd wind might sound like without the dogma.

If you don't agree with me, I respect that, but at least have the courtesy to expound on your thoughts, don't just give a shitty two word answer. Tsk, tsk. wink

Spare me. The "shitty two word answer" was my umpteenth way of saying that many of you Prince fans take way too much of his PERSONAL LIFE too seriously. And if you don't like the dogma he's preaching, don't listen to his music - it'll prevent the obvious internal grief many of you seem to experience because of his own personal beliefs. I really can't take all the whining about his religious persuasion seriously considering he preached about illicit sex for years and not a peep out of the most vocal hypocritcal fans. His truth isn't yours, and yours isn't his, so be it. To arrogantly act as if you have The Truth and constantly judge him for not continuing to validate your truth for the rest of your fandomed life (just because you don't agree) is NO LESS arrogant and judgemental as you proclaim him to be, but you'll never have the backbone to admit it - the only difference is that you probably don't have a public platform for your dogma. So, you're damn right, I say, GET OVER IT, ALREADY.

Or just wallow in your whiny disappointment. Your choice.


No thanks. I take his PERSONAL LIFE so seriously because he presents it very strongly and very publicly.

Well, that's certainly an outsider's issue you've decided to take upon yourself, and nobody can do anything to alleviate what you yourself decide to challenge yourself with.

For anyone else I may have come off too strong to, it wasn't my intent to represent my thoughts as "bent out of shape", as theblueangel described. Honestly, I was on as even a keel when I made that post as I am writing this one. I'm not a believer of the Jehova Witnesses doctrine, and yet I've never been in agreement with everything Prince has ever sung about prior to his affiliation with said religion either.

But if listeners or viewers of an artist's work have to have our own beliefs validated down to the "i"'s dotted and the "t"'s crossed in every aspect then we are way too needy and immaturely unrealistic about the concept of art in the first place. We may as well put our entire collections (of whatever they may be) up for sale on eBay and be done with it. If you can find an artist in any field that validates your entire belief system down to the nth degree, more power to you. Good luck with that.

My interpretations of his recent lyrics may be off base, and so may yours (meaning anyone he hasn't explicitly explained them to). So all we have is a lot of assumptions. Apparently those of us who still support the man have decided that those interpretations are not bad enough to boycott Shorty's work. It seems we all want him to represent the "freedom" that he did prior to his studying of the Witnesses doctrine - yet we don't want to allow him the basic right of freedom to choose the religion he sees fit. We as human beings are contradictory sometimes. And yes, I do include myself.


NovalovesyoutooSWANG, and psykosoul.
This post not for the wimp contingent. All whiny wusses avert your eyes.
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Reply #66 posted 12/03/03 4:02pm

SupaFunkyOrgan
grinderSexy

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imnotsayinthisjust2bnasty said:

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

imnotsayinthisjust2bnasty said:

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

imnotsayinthisjust2bnasty said:

honestly, i'd rather hear him talk about something he believes in than sing about something he has no emotion for.


Case in point...Everywhere from TRC. Wow!

The main issue that I have had with all the JW stuff is the attempt at revisionist history. No amount of changing lyrics and deleting words from past music will change the facts of the past. It's like taking a family portrait and cutting out the father saying he never existed just because the parents got divorced.

As long as Prince moves forward, and not backward trying to paint false pictures, I'm happy. I wish he were the leader he once was too. But I'm happy that we still get music from the man and that I am my own leader.

i don't see how prince changing lyrics on updated versions of his songs is any different that tori amos making changes to the songs that appear on her greatest hits collection. the fact is, those songs may be indicative of how he felt at the time of writing them but not how he feels presently. if he releases updated and changed versions of the previous albums it is only a statement on his work growing up. i don't talk about the same things i did when i was a kid and i don't speak the same way either.

prince's choice to release edited versions doesn't stop us from listening to the original versions. it merely provides him with the piece of mind that comes along with doing something you feel you must do. he just happens to feel that he mus rectify a situation. i don't particularly agree with that personally but, at the end of the day, they are his songs and it is his money. if he wants to spend his money on electricity and distribution costs, so be it.



I'll tell you the reason it's different. Because it's feuled by a guilt trip. There is nothing to rectify. Changing lyrics to old songs won't make them reflect your current beliefs. Everyone already has the material as it was originally released. We all knew what he said and what he stood for.

I agree with you in that if Prince wants to waste his time, he's got the green light to do so. However this indicates a complete lack of logic IMO.

lack of your logic; perfectly logical to prince.

however, we know p can be quite illogical a lot of the time lol


Downright ridiculous is more like it nod
2010: Healing the Wounds of the Past.... http://prince.org/msg/8/325740
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Reply #67 posted 12/03/03 4:52pm

madartista

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Supernova said:

Well, that's certainly an outsider's issue you've decided to take upon yourself, and nobody can do anything to alleviate what you yourself decide to challenge yourself with.

For anyone else I may have come off too strong to, it wasn't my intent to represent my thoughts as "bent out of shape", as theblueangel described. Honestly, I was on as even a keel when I made that post as I am writing this one. I'm not a believer of the Jehova Witnesses doctrine, and yet I've never been in agreement with everything Prince has ever sung about prior to his affiliation with said religion either.

But if listeners or viewers of an artist's work have to have our own beliefs validated down to the "i"'s dotted and the "t"'s crossed in every aspect then we are way too needy and immaturely unrealistic about the concept of art in the first place. We may as well put our entire collections (of whatever they may be) up for sale on eBay and be done with it. If you can find an artist in any field that validates your entire belief system down to the nth degree, more power to you. Good luck with that.

My interpretations of his recent lyrics may be off base, and so may yours (meaning anyone he hasn't explicitly explained them to). So all we have is a lot of assumptions. Apparently those of us who still support the man have decided that those interpretations are not bad enough to boycott Shorty's work. It seems we all want him to represent the "freedom" that he did prior to his studying of the Witnesses doctrine - yet we don't want to allow him the basic right of freedom to choose the religion he sees fit. We as human beings are contradictory sometimes. And yes, I do include myself.


NovalovesyoutooSWANG, and psykosoul.


Well put, Nova. I completely agree with some of what you say, but I'm definitely looking at this differently. I'm not looking for him to validate my belief system. Maybe other's are coming across with that in their posts, and maybe mine came across that way, but being disappointed in the choices he has made doesn't therefore mean that I want him to have the same beliefs as I. That's not my intention.
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Reply #68 posted 12/03/03 5:01pm

TonyC

Romance1600 said:

... is that how someone who got it so right...


... could get it so wrong.

It's such a fucking shame.


Hallelujah, brother! It's just like how Prince went from writing a brilliant, perceptive song like "Race" to whining about Abraham Lincoln 150 years after the fact...just sad.
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Reply #69 posted 12/03/03 5:03pm

Supernova

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madartista said:

Supernova said:

Well, that's certainly an outsider's issue you've decided to take upon yourself, and nobody can do anything to alleviate what you yourself decide to challenge yourself with.

For anyone else I may have come off too strong to, it wasn't my intent to represent my thoughts as "bent out of shape", as theblueangel described. Honestly, I was on as even a keel when I made that post as I am writing this one. I'm not a believer of the Jehova Witnesses doctrine, and yet I've never been in agreement with everything Prince has ever sung about prior to his affiliation with said religion either.

But if listeners or viewers of an artist's work have to have our own beliefs validated down to the "i"'s dotted and the "t"'s crossed in every aspect then we are way too needy and immaturely unrealistic about the concept of art in the first place. We may as well put our entire collections (of whatever they may be) up for sale on eBay and be done with it. If you can find an artist in any field that validates your entire belief system down to the nth degree, more power to you. Good luck with that.

My interpretations of his recent lyrics may be off base, and so may yours (meaning anyone he hasn't explicitly explained them to). So all we have is a lot of assumptions. Apparently those of us who still support the man have decided that those interpretations are not bad enough to boycott Shorty's work. It seems we all want him to represent the "freedom" that he did prior to his studying of the Witnesses doctrine - yet we don't want to allow him the basic right of freedom to choose the religion he sees fit. We as human beings are contradictory sometimes. And yes, I do include myself.


NovalovesyoutooSWANG, and psykosoul.


Well put, Nova. I completely agree with some of what you say, but I'm definitely looking at this differently. I'm not looking for him to validate my belief system. Maybe other's are coming across with that in their posts, and maybe mine came across that way, but being disappointed in the choices he has made doesn't therefore mean that I want him to have the same beliefs as I. That's not my intention.

I didn't mean you specifically meant that. Actually, my posts in this thread are just a reaction to the same type of things being said for the past few years within the Prince online community. It's certainly not that I have never been disappointed with anything the man has done or said.
This post not for the wimp contingent. All whiny wusses avert your eyes.
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Reply #70 posted 12/03/03 5:04pm

rudedog

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Romance1600 said:

I'll get over it when we get a new vocal Prince album that tells me that Prince has got over it wink


Well, Michael Jackson got over it, so eventually Prince will too. Hmm, I guess MJ is a different story smile
"The voter is less important than the man who provides money to the candidate," - Former Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens
Rudedog no no no!
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Reply #71 posted 12/03/03 5:30pm

madartista

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Supernova said:

I didn't mean you specifically meant that. Actually, my posts in this thread are just a reaction to the same type of things being said for the past few years within the Prince online community. It's certainly not that I have never been disappointed with anything the man has done or said.


Cool.

thumbs up!
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Reply #72 posted 12/03/03 5:41pm

savoirfaire

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hisroyalbadnessfan8485 said:

so sorry 2 contradict u,but...

u said that JW is a traditional religion,sorry nope

it is a cult(i'm not joking)

it was actually started in 1831 by a small group of (sorry bout the spelling)Unitarist(another cult)around the new england area(here in the US),who were unsatisfied with their own churh,since then new teachings were added slowly(in 1845,they decided 2 ignore all holidays,even b-days an anniversaries).an since about the early 1930's,is when u have the modern day JW.

how can i verify?

1.my grandfather, himself is a JW PREACHER,he preaches 2 every1 he can(including me,this is how i found out)

2.history texts an religous history books
espicially 1 that pertain solely on the basis of cult,cult history,an cult practices.they tend 2 b more detailed than just a "history of America".

i feel bad tho that prince jumped on the banwagon so quickly without checking exactly what he was getting it2.


Every religion is a cult. People differ in beliefs about how they feel their life should be run, or they desire power, or to be remembered, and that is what relgion is. I'm not saying this negatively, I'm just saying the way JW came into fruition is the same way any religion comes to fruition.
"Knowledge is preferable to ignorance. Better by far to embrace the hard truth than a reassuring faith. If we crave some cosmic purpose, then let us find ourselves a worthy goal" - Carl Sagan
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Reply #73 posted 12/03/03 5:57pm

Romance1600

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Supernova said:


Well, that's certainly an outsider's issue you've decided to take upon yourself, and nobody can do anything to alleviate what you yourself decide to challenge yourself with.

For anyone else I may have come off too strong to, it wasn't my intent to represent my thoughts as "bent out of shape", as theblueangel described. Honestly, I was on as even a keel when I made that post as I am writing this one. I'm not a believer of the Jehova Witnesses doctrine, and yet I've never been in agreement with everything Prince has ever sung about prior to his affiliation with said religion either.

But if listeners or viewers of an artist's work have to have our own beliefs validated down to the "i"'s dotted and the "t"'s crossed in every aspect then we are way too needy and immaturely unrealistic about the concept of art in the first place. We may as well put our entire collections (of whatever they may be) up for sale on eBay and be done with it. If you can find an artist in any field that validates your entire belief system down to the nth degree, more power to you. Good luck with that.

My interpretations of his recent lyrics may be off base, and so may yours (meaning anyone he hasn't explicitly explained them to). So all we have is a lot of assumptions. Apparently those of us who still support the man have decided that those interpretations are not bad enough to boycott Shorty's work. It seems we all want him to represent the "freedom" that he did prior to his studying of the Witnesses doctrine - yet we don't want to allow him the basic right of freedom to choose the religion he sees fit. We as human beings are contradictory sometimes. And yes, I do include myself.


I respect his right to explore that point of view, but what I'm saying is, I'm dissappointed that he took that religion on board, considering his past artistic work.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm a sucker for a major chord
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Reply #74 posted 12/03/03 6:12pm

madartista

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Romance1600 said:

Supernova said:


Well, that's certainly an outsider's issue you've decided to take upon yourself, and nobody can do anything to alleviate what you yourself decide to challenge yourself with.

For anyone else I may have come off too strong to, it wasn't my intent to represent my thoughts as "bent out of shape", as theblueangel described. Honestly, I was on as even a keel when I made that post as I am writing this one. I'm not a believer of the Jehova Witnesses doctrine, and yet I've never been in agreement with everything Prince has ever sung about prior to his affiliation with said religion either.

But if listeners or viewers of an artist's work have to have our own beliefs validated down to the "i"'s dotted and the "t"'s crossed in every aspect then we are way too needy and immaturely unrealistic about the concept of art in the first place. We may as well put our entire collections (of whatever they may be) up for sale on eBay and be done with it. If you can find an artist in any field that validates your entire belief system down to the nth degree, more power to you. Good luck with that.

My interpretations of his recent lyrics may be off base, and so may yours (meaning anyone he hasn't explicitly explained them to). So all we have is a lot of assumptions. Apparently those of us who still support the man have decided that those interpretations are not bad enough to boycott Shorty's work. It seems we all want him to represent the "freedom" that he did prior to his studying of the Witnesses doctrine - yet we don't want to allow him the basic right of freedom to choose the religion he sees fit. We as human beings are contradictory sometimes. And yes, I do include myself.


I respect his right to explore that point of view, but what I'm saying is, I'm dissappointed that he took that religion on board, considering his past artistic work.


Ditto. That's the same for me.
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Reply #75 posted 12/03/03 6:26pm

Jade

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wow. This thread turned the downward spiral real quick, didn't it?

Well, against my better judgement, here goes:

I really don't see what the big deal is. I don't belong to the club, so I can't comment on what goes on there. I will say, however, that people really need to get off of Prince's "ish". If being a JW makes him happy and makes him feel as though he has more of a connection and understanding of God, then I'm happy for him.

Folks, he may be a mega-popstar, but he's also a human being who is searching and finding his way the best he knows how. No one can fault anyone else for deciding to choose a different spiritual path than what you may choose.

It really isn't healthy to get so caught up into someone else's personal life.
The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon...dammit!
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Reply #76 posted 12/03/03 7:05pm

CocoSweet

Cult, huh? Hmm, and I guess, all of us here aren't part of the Prince cult? And yet nobody thinks that's strange, but Prince given his life to GOD is. What a screwed up world we live in.

I just don't get why Prince being a JW gets people so worked up. I doubt very much he's sitting at home typing on the websites talking about how your choices in life are so wrong and disturbing and you could've been a better person if you...(fill in the blank). Like me and everyone here I'm sure he doesn't care who you are and what you're doing. But that's just my twocents.
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Reply #77 posted 12/03/03 7:06pm

SWANG

Romance1600 said:


I respect his right to explore that point of view, but what I'm saying is, I'm dissappointed that he took that religion on board, considering his past artistic work.



Religion has nothing to do with art...

-SWANGjusthadtoaddthat
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Reply #78 posted 12/03/03 7:16pm

17daysfan

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As far as I'm concerned, I don't care what he does in his personal life. I love him for his music. If he wants to hand out Watchtower pamphlets, then more power to him. As long as I have his music to listen to music, he can do whatever he pleases! nod
"There is no such thing as an ugly woman... just a lazy one." ~ Unknown
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Reply #79 posted 12/03/03 7:33pm

Jade

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@ Cocosweet and 17days:

Very well said, and as for him knocking on people's doors, he can knock on my door and prosyletize ANY day! wink
The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon...dammit!
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Reply #80 posted 12/03/03 11:27pm

Oh7

Well it seems like Prince did it again. If he wanted to get your attention about his beliefs...well it worked. If he wanted your ears to perk up and listen...they did. I must say to Prince...Bravo my brother you have everyone's attention. All the rest...you have to work it out amongst yourselves.
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Reply #81 posted 12/04/03 2:16am

DaFunkFreak

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I've read most of what Cee Jay posted re: the theocratic order...I am always concerned when people claim that they have found the everlasting truth...
There are no kings on this Earth, only Princes

Founder and Sole Member of the French Org Mafia
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Reply #82 posted 12/04/03 2:45am

Abrazo

SWANG said:

Romance1600 said:


I respect his right to explore that point of view, but what I'm saying is, I'm dissappointed that he took that religion on board, considering his past artistic work.



Religion has nothing to do with art...

-SWANGjusthadtoaddthat


That's very untrue SWANG. In history and still this day many art has been created due to religion and many religions have evolved together with and (partly) due to art.
You are not my "friend" because you threaten my security.
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Reply #83 posted 12/04/03 2:47am

Abrazo

CONCLUSION
The present-day great distress of the world is due solely to the wicked influence and power of the Devil, who knows that his time now is short and must end at the battle of Armageddon, which is near. (Revelation 12: 12) The only possible means for human creatures to now escape destruction is to flee to THE THEOCRACY. All who do not flee to THE THEOCRACY are certain to perish at Armageddon. Those who do now flee to THE THEOCRACY may escape the destruction and find everlasting life in endless peace.


I can understand why fans get dissapointed or have a creepy feeling when Prince is expressing, supporting, or leaning towards this view in his art.
You are not my "friend" because you threaten my security.
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Reply #84 posted 12/04/03 3:59am

hisroyalbadnes
sfan8485

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ok folks,this is my definition of cults/sects:


1.a sytemor communityof religious worship and ritual and ritual,espicially one focusing upon a single deity or spirt
2.a direvation of a particular religion.




i'll bring my history book 2marrow
btw this was webster's dictionary (like from the 50's/60's)
ignorance isnt bliss its....its......its.......a another bit word.......
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Reply #85 posted 12/04/03 4:51am

theblueangel

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OdysseyMiles said:

Well, I find it funny how so many people enjoy bad-mouthing JWs. I personally have never met more humble people in my life.


Hey, that's cool...I'm sure they're out there, and I'm glad you've met them. I personally have never met more controlling, cold people in my life...guess it all depends on who you know.
No confusion, no tears. No enemies, no fear. No sorrow, no pain. No ball, no chain.

Sex is not love. Love is not sex. Putting words in other people's mouths will only get you elected.

Need more sleep than coke or methamphetamine.
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Reply #86 posted 12/04/03 4:57am

theblueangel

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Oh, and Supernova...I hope I didn't irk you too much with my "bent out of shape" comment. I hear a LOT of what you're saying, and I really appreciate the articulate manner in which you said it. I just tend to side more with madartista on this one...I also think that of course Prince can follow any religion or belief system he wants...but that doesn't mean that I can't feel disappointment that he went from (in my eyes) such enlightenment to such oppression.
No confusion, no tears. No enemies, no fear. No sorrow, no pain. No ball, no chain.

Sex is not love. Love is not sex. Putting words in other people's mouths will only get you elected.

Need more sleep than coke or methamphetamine.
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Reply #87 posted 12/04/03 5:08am

DaFunkFreak

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Well, I guess that the controversy spurred by Prince's new-found faith relates to what you expect from Prince. Either you just dig is music and his over-the-top personnality (and this JW thing, albeit annoying and scary, is of no major consequence) or (2) you do actually seek guidance/enlightment from what he thinks or believes in. And in that latter case, you should either (1) become a JW yourself and a member of the NPGMC or (2) get some rest, make an appointment with a shrink and get laid more often.
There are no kings on this Earth, only Princes

Founder and Sole Member of the French Org Mafia
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Reply #88 posted 12/13/03 3:33am

andyf

imnotsayinthisjust2bnasty said:

it is only music. if you're searching for salvation in music you're looking in the wrong place, anyway. i don't particularly agree with everything JWs teach but there is certainly some good knowledge and lessons in the teachings (as with all religions). honestly, i'd rather hear him talk about something he believes in than sing about something he has no emotion for. when prince (or any artist i enjoy, for that matter) talks about something i disagree with i just toss it up to a difference in perspective and opinion. nothing more, nothing less.
I like this biggrin
--------
"Someone who makes you laugh when you wanna cry"
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Reply #89 posted 12/13/03 3:38am

andyf

CeeJay said:

DaFunkFreak said:

Well, I'm not saying that Al Quaida are the JW are similar, but rather than preaching for a theocratic order is not a neutral thing to say. JWs and Al Quaida share the idea according to which a unique theocratic order should replace secular orders. A theocratic order relies on a revealed and eternal truth, set in stone once and for all, leaving no space between an ideal and reality. This is the first step towards fanatism (see Kant, Cioran). As soon as you decide that an order derived from God (hence more or less unquestionnable) should be imposed on and rule the political sphere (and this is btw why JWs don't participate in politics), democracy (which relies on checks and balances and regular changeover of political power between parties) is in danger. This is why I'm saying that preaching that "there's a theocratic order" is plain scary(regardless of Prince's joy and newfound hapiness in doing so).
[This message was edited Wed Dec 3 8:09:46 PST 2003 by DaFunkFreak]

THEOCRACY - this is the biggest world issue today, over which, shortly, the final war of Armageddon shall be fought. All peoples of all nations are now being divided over this issue. In order that persons of good-will may understand The Theocratic Government and may take their stand on the side that means life, peace and joy to them, this booklet by Judge Rutherford is published.
The Theocracy is the only place of refuge for distressed humanity. It is the only hope of mankind. It is therefore in your interest to read this booklet.
THE PUBLISHER.

THEOCRACY
By J. F. RUTHERFORD

FIRST PRINTING 5, 000, 000 copies

U. S. A. COPYRIGHT, 1941,
AND PUBLISHED BY
WATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY.
International Bible Students Association
34 Craven Terrace, London, W. 2

OTHER OFFICES:
Brooklyn, Buenos Aires, Strathfield, Cape Town, Berne,
Copenhagen, Mexico City, Manila, Bombay, Oslo,
and other cities.

THEOCRACY

WHAT is THE THEOCRACY? What kind of persons advocate THE THEOCRACY? What good will THE THEOCRACY render to the people?
Jehovah's government of the world by Christ Jesus, His King and Executive Officer, is THE THEOCRACY. No human eye will ever behold Jehovah God, because he is spirit. Christ Jesus, the King, is the "express image" of Jehovah, the Most High, and is likewise for ever invisible to human eyes. Christ Jesus is the Vindicator of Jehovah's name and carries out the orders of Almighty God. Concerning this it is written in the Scriptures: "Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see; to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen." -1 Timothy 6: 15, 16.
For many centuries Satan the Devil has operated as the invisible ruler of the nations of the earth. "When the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn." (Proverbs 29: 2) The mourning of the people of all nations to-day is the result of the rule of the wicked one Satan. THE THEOCRACY will destroy that wicked rule and in its stead set up a righteous government. There will be visible men who will perform the office of governors and who will carry out expressly the will of Almighty God for the good of the people.
For centuries Jehovah, the Almighty God, communicated to his people through his holy prophets, whom he commissioned and inspired to speak his truth. Then he sent his beloved Son, Christ Jesus, to speak for him and to execute his purposes in the earth: "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they." (Hebrews 1: 1-4) Unto Jesus the Almighty has committed "all power... in heaven and in earth," and given him authority to execute such power. (Matthew 28: 18) Christ Jesus was anointed as King at the time he was immersed in the Jordan river. He was anointed by the spirit of Jehovah. (Matthew 3: 16, 17) To Christ Jesus, the King, was then committed the judgment of the world and of men: "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son; and hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man." -John 5: 22, 27.

AUTHORITY
The Holy Scriptures, contained in the book known as The Bible, were written by men entirely devoted to Almighty God, and which men were inspired and moved by the spirit of Almighty God to record what is there written: "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man; but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the holy ghost [holy spirit(R.V.)]." (2 Peter 1: 21) "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." -2 Timothy 3: 16, 17.
The "man of God" is any man who sincerely desires to know God and to be obedient to God's commandments and who is then diligent to learn his commandments and to honor the name of the Most High by being diligent in obedience to his commandments to make known the name and the kingdom of Jehovah. To such a man the Bible, which is God's Word of truth, is a perfect and sure guide; and therefore in the language of the psalmist he says: "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." -Psalm 119: 105.
To the man who is diligent to learn and to go in the right way the Almighty God says: "The meek will he guide in judgment, and the meek will he teach his way." (Psalm 25: 9) "I will instruct thee, and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye." (Psalm 32: 8) "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths." (Proverbs 3: 5, 6) To such devoted person God makes it possible for him to have an understanding of the Scriptures, and these scriptures thoroughly equip such man to be the servant of the Most High.

The Word of Almighty God is always right and true: "For the word of the Lord is right; and all his works are done in truth." (Psalm 33: 4) The "man of God" desires at all times the truth. For that reason the Holy Scriptures, set out in The Bible, constitute the authority here cited and which shows the reason for the existence and the work of Jehovah's witnesses. This testimony is here set out in order that all persons who desire to know him have an opportunity to understand why a certain class of persons now on the earth are designated as "Jehovah's witnesses," and why such persons are engaged in a specific work at this time and are opposed so vigorously by others.
The "man of God" continuously has this prayer in his heart: "Withhold not thou thy tender mercies from me, O Lord; let thy lovingkindness and thy truth continually preserve me." (Psalm 40: 11) Thus praying, he diligently puts forth an endeavor to know the truth and serve the truth. Truth never fails, and in due time must triumph. "For the Lord is good, his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations." (Psalm 100: 5) "Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth. Thou art near, O Lord; and all thy commandments are truth." -Psalm 119: 142, 151.

THE FATHER
The Supreme One is God, who is the Almighty. He is the Father, hence the Life-giver to all who receive life and the right to life. To Abraham God said: "I am the Almighty God." (Genesis 17: 1) "From everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." (Psalm 90: 2) The name Jehovah belongs to the Almighty God and to none other, and therefore it is written: "That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the Most High over all the earth." (Psalm 83: 18) Being the Most High and the Almighty, there resides in him supreme power. His will is the perfect law by which the man of God must be guided, and, if he is thus guided, in due time he shall receive life everlasting.

THE SON
Jesus is the Son of the Almighty God. There are others who are called "gods," or mighty ones, but to those who love righteousness there is but one Almighty God; as it is written: "But to us there is but one God, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." (1 Corinthians 8: 6) Jehovah is the Father of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (2 Corinthians 11: 31) Jesus is the beloved and only begotten Son of the Almighty God, whom the Almighty, the Father, sent to earth to represent him and to declare his truth. (John 3: 16, 17) Because of complete obedience of Jesus, the Son, in carrying out the will of his Father, Jehovah, he, the Lord Jesus, is commissioned and honored and exalted by Jehovah God above all and next to the Father himself: "Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness; therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." -Psalm 45: 7.

UNITY
The Almighty God Jehovah is the Creator of heaven and earth, and all things of the earth and of heaven rightfully belong to him. (Psalm 24: 1) His throne of authority is in heaven. Thus saith Jehovah: "The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool." (Isaiah 66: 1) He is without beginning and without end. He is the "I AM"; that is to say, he was not from some time past, but his existence is without reference to time: "And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." -Exodus 3: 13, 14.
He is the Life-giver, or Father, to all those who love righteousness. He is the Giver of every good and perfect gift: "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." (James 1: 17) Every creature, whether spirit or human, that lives everlastingly, must receive his life and right to life from the Almighty, Jehovah God.
The Son of God, Christ Jesus, was from the beginning known by the name Logos (according to the Greek). He is 'the beginning of God's creation, ' and thereafter everything that was made was made by Jehovah by and through Christ Jesus. (John 1: 1-3; Revelation 3: 14) He is the official representative of Jehovah, the Most High, and the one who carries into action Jehovah's purposes. God, the Father, sent his beloved Son to earth to here perform his purposes. He was made flesh and dwelt amongst men: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, ) full of grace and truth." (John 1: 14) The man Jesus bore testimony before others, saying this: "My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." (John 4: 34) "But I have greater witness than that of John; for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me." (John 5: 36) "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6: 38-40). "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." (John 5: 30) Thus is shown complete unity of the Father and of the Son, that is to say, oneness or unity in the accomplishment of the purpose of Almighty God. Therefore Jesus said: "I and my Father are one." (John 10: 30) The Father and the Son are not "one in person," but are in full and complete unity and harmony of action. This is further shown by the scripture, to wit: "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6: 23) Jehovah God is the Life-giver, and that life thus given is administered by his beloved Son, Christ Jesus: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." -1 Timothy 2: 5.

HIS COMMISSION
The commission of Jesus is his authority, received from his Father Jehovah, to do and perform the will of the Almighty God. The commission of Jesus is his authority to act, and includes (1) the vindication of his Father's name; (2) the redemption and deliverance of those of mankind who believe on God and Christ, and who are obedient to God's will; and (3) to set up the kingdom of Almighty God by and through which he accomplishes and completes his commission.
The name of Jehovah God is glorious above all creation. For many centuries before the coming of Jesus to earth the Devil had reproached the name of Jehovah, the Most High God, and had caused many creatures to blaspheme Jehovah's name. The Devil had challenged Jehovah to put any creature on earth who would not blaspheme and reproach God's name. To the Devil Jehovah therefore said: ' For this cause have I permitted thee to remain; to shew thee my power, and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth. ' (Exodus 9: 16, Leeser) "0 God, how long shall the adversary reproach? shall the enemy blaspheme thy name for ever? Remember this, that the enemy hath reproached, 0 Lord, and that the foolish people have blasphemed thy name." -Psalm 74: 10, 18.
The vengeance of God upon his enemies results in the complete vindication of God's holy name, demonstrating to all that Jehovah is the Almighty; that justice is the foundation of his throne; that he is perfect in wisdom and that he is holy, unselfish, and therefore God is love. To Almighty God belongs vengeance or vindication: "To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time; for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste. If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment, I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me. Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people; for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people." -Deuteronomy 32: 35, 41, 43.
It is the will of Almighty God that his holy name shall be exalted and that every creature that breathes shall in due time praise the name of the Most High: "Let every thing that hath breath praise the Lord. Praise ye the Lord." (Psalm 150: 6) "Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth." -Psalm 46: 10.
Those who have blasphemed and reproached Jehovah's name shall be brought low, but the name of Jehovah shall be exalted. (Isaiah 2: 11, 17) Such is the purpose and will of Jehovah, the Almighty God, which purpose will be carried out in due time and executed by the Beloved Son.
The Son Jesus came to do the will of his Father, who sent him, and therefore the Beloved Son says: "Then said I, Lo, I come; in the volume of the book it is written of me, I delight to do thy will, O my God; yea, thy law is within my heart." (Psalm 40: 7, 8) Concerning him it is further written: "Wherefore, when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure: then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me) to do thy will, O God. Above, when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God." (Hebrews 10: 5-9) Christ Jesus will carry out his commission and will fully Vindicate his Father's name.

As a secondary purpose, as provided in his commission of authority, Jesus was sent by his Father to purchase and deliver obedient men from death. Upon all men fell condemnation of death by reason of the sin of the first man; and by the obedience of Christ Jesus in the performance of his Father's will the way of redemption, deliverance and blessing is opened to mankind. (Romans 5: 12, 18, 19; John 3: 16, 17) It is by the kingdom of God, which is THE THEOCRACY that the purpose of Jehovah God shall be accomplished by and through Christ Jesus, his Executive Officer. It is the man Christ Jesus who by his own lifeblood furnishes the purchase price for the human race. It is the resurrected spirit, Christ Jesus, who saves and delivers from death all of the human race that believe on and obey him and his Father, Jehovah. To accomplish this ransom or redemption of men Jesus must die as a man and be resurrected as a spirit, and then carry out the purpose of Jehovah. He was therefore put to death as a man, and God raised Jesus out of death a spirit creature who lives for evermore. (1 Peter 3: 18; Acts 2: 24, 36) After his resurrection and ascension into heaven Christ Jesus spoke to his servant John these words: "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." -Revelation 1: 18.
Before Christ Jesus could set up the Kingdom and reign as King, and before he could vindicate his Father's name, he must first die and be raised out of death, then receive his kingdom, and in his Father's due time begin the reign as King. Therefore, Jesus said to his disciples: "In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." (John 14: 2, 3) Furthermore to his disciples he said: "Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me." (Luke 22: 28, 29) Concerning the man Jesus and his death, resurrection and exaltation it is written: "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." -Philippians 2: 7-11.
When he ascended on high he did not immediately begin his reign, but must wait until God's due time for him to take his great power and reign; therefore it is written: "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy foot-stool." (Psalm 110: 1; Hebrews 10: 12, 13) A long period of time must elapse and has elapsed from the time of the resurrection and ascension of Christ Jesus into heaven and until his coming and the beginning of his reign as King of THE THEOCRACY.

HIS TESTIMONY

The man Jesus when on earth must give testimony to those who would hear of and concerning the great fundamental truths set out in the foregoing Scriptural quotations. He must make known the purpose of his coming to earth as a man. To the governor then acting in Palestine Jesus said: 'I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I might bear testimony to the truth; and everyone who is of the truth heareth my voice. ' (John 18: 37) At the same time he stated: "My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now is my kingdom not from hence." (John 18: 36) It therefore follows that "this world" must come to an end before The THEOCRATIC GOVERNMENT could be put into operation. The commission of Jesus, therefore, required him while on earth to be a witness to the truth and to testify to the truth according to his Father's will, that those who desire to hear might learn the truth.
"Disciples" means those who are willing learners. The testimony of Jesus was received by the faithful disciples, whom he thereafter appointed and commissioned as his apostles and witnesses. He sent them forth and commanded and commissioned them to bear testimony to the people and to instruct the people that Jehovah is the Almighty God; that Christ Jesus is the beloved Son of Jehovah God; that by the blood of the obedient Son, Christ Jesus, the human race is purchased and redeemed and delivered; that the name of Jehovah God must be and shall be vindicated; and that at the second coming of Christ Jesus all of this would be accomplished by and through the Kingdom, or THE THEOCRACY. Therefore he taught his apostles, and all of his followers, to look for the coining and the establishment of The THEOCRATIC GOVERNMENT and to always pray to Jehovah for the coming of that Kingdom. -Matthew 6: 10.

TESTIMONY OF THE APOSTLES
From the time of the baptism of Christ Jesus to the end of his earthly existence the faithful apostles were taught by him, and from that time, as long as the apostles were on earth, they gave testimony before the people of and concerning the purpose of Jehovah, which in due time shall be accomplished by and through Christ Jesus the King. In all the testimony of those faithful apostles the fact of the coming of Christ Jesus to his kingdom was emphasized. Some of the testimony concerning his coming and his kingdom is as follows: 'We, however, are free citizens of heaven, and we are waiting with longing expectation for the coming from heaven of a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, in the exercise of the power which He has even to subject all things to Himself, will transform this body of our humiliation until it resembles the body of His glory. ' (Philippians 3: 20, 21, Weymouth; Am. Rev. Ver. ) "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom." -2 Timothy 4: 1.
That all faithful followers of Christ Jesus must continue to bear testimony to the name of Jehovah and to his THEOCRATIC GOVERNMENT this further admonition was given to them, as it is written -. "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with all long suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith; henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day; and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." -2 Timothy 4: 2-8.
To all of his obedient followers Christ Jesus gives this admonition: "Watch therefore; for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. Therefore be ye also ready; for in such an hour as ye think not, the Son of man cometh." (Matthew 24: 42, 44) From the days of the apostles up to this very hour there have been a small number of faithful men and women who at all times have been diligent in their endeavours to live and to act in ' harmony with the foregoing admonition, that is, to bear testimony to others of Jehovah God, of Christ his King, and of the Kingdom. These have earnestly waited and looked and prayed for the coming of Christ and his kingdom.

CORPORATIONS
These are days in which corporations are organised and operated to perpetuate title to personal and real property and to carry out a fixed purpose of men, without reference to the duration of life of men. Corporations are organized and employed by followers of Christ Jesus for the purpose aforementioned. In 1884 a corporation was created and organised under the laws of the State of Pennsylvania under the name and title of Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society, the name of which corporation was later changed to WATCH TOWER BIBLE & TRACT SOCIETY. The purpose of that corporation, as stated in its charter, is as follows, to wit:
"The purpose for which the corporation is formed is, the dissemination of Bible truths in various languages by means of the publication of tracts, pamphlets, papers and other religious documents, and by the use of all other lawful means which its Board of Directors, duly constituted, shall deem expedient for the furtherance of the purpose stated."
In 1914 a like corporation was created and organized under the laws of Great Britain under the name and title of INTERNATIONAL BIBLE STUDENTS ASSOCIATION, and the purpose of that corporation is identical with that of the other one above mentioned. These corporations are one, in this, that they are dedicated to the same use and work. Together they act as printers and manufacturers of books, magazines and other literature for that body of Christian people throughout the earth who are witnesses of Jehovah God and his kingdom. Such witnesses are the followers of Christ Jesus and, in obedience to his commandments and by his authority and commission from Jehovah God, they preach or proclaim the gospel of THE THEOCRACY and hence are:

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES
Charles Taze Russell was the prime mover in the formation and organization of the corporations above named. Of course, other persons, as the law of the land requires, joined with him in the formation of such corporations. Charles T. Russell, better known as Pastor Russell, was and is a Christian, following in the footsteps of Christ Jesus and fully devoted to Jehovah God. On October 31, 1916, he finished his earthly course. He was faithful unto death in his devotion to God and to His kingdom. He devoted his all to the service of God and Christ. He was loved by all persons knowing him, who loved and served Jehovah God, and was hated by those who were unfaithful to God and who hate God and his kingdom. Like other faithful Christians, he was hated for the name of the Lord.
Some persons who do not understand, and also others who are enemies of the kingdom of God, claim and state that the body of Christians known and designated as Jehovah's witnesses now on the earth have in recent years ignored their founder, Pastor Russell, and have formed a cult or sect and have named themselves Jehovah's witnesses. That conclusion and statement so published by the aforementioned persons is without truth and fact, being wholly false.
A "cult" is a system of religious belief, ceremonies and practices indulged in and practiced by an organised body of persons.
A "sect" is a religious organisation of persons who follow a particular leader in their belief and practice of a specific religion.
"Blasphemy" consists of an indignity offered to Almighty God in words, in writing or in signs. The act of claiming the prerogative of God and that which belongs alone to Almighty God, Jehovah, is blasphemy.
"Religion" is doing anything contrary to the will of Almighty God.
"Christianity" means to joyfully do the will of Almighty God as He has commanded; and because the Lord Jesus Christ always does the will of God gladly, all his followers are properly called "Christians." These definitions are proper and correct.
Pastor Russell was the general organizer of the corporations above named, but he was not in any sense the founder or organizer of Jehovah's witnesses. The claim that any man is the founder or organizer of Jehovah's witnesses is blasphemy, for the obvious reason that it is the prerogative solely of Jehovah God to select and organize his own witnesses and no man has any authority whatsoever to select or organize them.
Jehovah's witnesses could not be a cult or sect of religionists, because Jehovah God expressly denounces religion as a snare of the Devil, employed to deceive and to entrap men and to turn them away from God. -Deuteronomy 7: 16.
Religion originated with the Devil and has been used by the Devil at all times since to deceive the people and to turn them away from the worship of Almighty God.
Who, then, are Jehovah's witnesses? and by whom are they selected and organized to perform their duties and carry on their work? They are made up of persons who are entirely devoted to Jehovah God and his kingdom and who are diligent and faithful in carrying out his orders as commanded by the Most High. They are selected or chosen by Almighty Jehovah God. No man could select them. Concerning such it is written: "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God; which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." -1 Peter 2: 9, 10.
The chief witness of Jehovah God, the Head over all of his witnesses, is the Logos, Christ Jesus, the Lord, Saviour, and King of THE THEOCRACY. One of his official titles is "The Faithful and True Witness." -Revelation 1: 5; 3: 14.
The first man who was selected as a witness of Jehovah God from amongst men was Abel, who faithfully obeyed Almighty God and received God's approval, (Genesis 4: 4) His brother Cain was a religionist, the murderer of Abel, and was cursed by Jehovah. (Genesis 4: 5-12) "By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he [Abel] obtained [the] witness that he was righteous." -Hebrews 11:4.
From the time of Abel onward Jehovah God continued to select his witnesses from amongst men. The next name appearing amongst those selected was Enoch, who "pleased God." The Scriptures then add: "Without faith it is impossible to please [God]." (Hebrews 11: 5, 6} Such of necessity means that God would never select any man as his witness who is without faith or who is unfaithful. God then selected and gave approval to Noah as one of his witnesses. Noah was joyfully obedient to the will of Almighty God, "a preacher of righteousness," and whose testimony was a rebuke to the religious practitioners, all of whom were destroyed in the flood.
Jehovah then mentions Abraham, whom he calls His "friend." To Abraham he gave promise that in due time blessings should come to all the families of the earth who would be obedient to Him. Because Abraham was faithfully obedient to the will of God he received the approval of the Most High and is designated as one of Jehovah's witnesses. Concerning Abraham it is recorded in the Bible: "For he looked for a city [organization or kingdom of Almighty God] which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God." -Hebrews 11: 10
Favourable mention and approval is also made in the Scriptures of Sarah, Isaac, and Jacob, all of whom received God's commendation and approval, "and who by faith devoted themselves to God and set their hopes and affections upon THE THEOCRATIC GOVERNMENT, and, as it is written: "Wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for he hath prepared for them a city [a place in The THEOCRATIC GOVERNMENT]. "Jehovah also selected and mentioned with his approval as his witnesses Joseph, Moses, Rahab, Gideon, Barak, Samson, David, Samuel, and all the faithful prophets, which includes those from Moses to John the Baptist. Jehovah God selected them as his witnesses, and they were all faithful to their appointment and commission. All of them suffered great persecution at the hands of religionists, and of and concerning them it is written in the Bible: "Of whom the world was not worthy." All of them received the commendation and approval of Jehovah God. (Hebrews 11: 4-40) Those faithful "witnesses of Jehovah who bore testimony to the name of Jehovah and his kingdom have the promise of the Almighty God that they shall be resurrected from death and made the visible princes or governors in the earth under the great Theocratic King, Christ Jesus," (Psalm 45: 16) They shall rule under the great and righteous King, Christ Jesus; as it is written: "Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment." (Isaiah 32: 1) Then the people will rejoice. That will be in great contrast to the present-day rule of dictators and ambitious politicians: "When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn." -Proverbs 29: 2.
Christ Jesus, the great true and faithful Witness of Jehovah, when on earth, at all times, and on repeated occasions, emphasized the importance of the Kingdom. His speech and teachings publicly and otherwise were at all times concerning THE THEOCRACY. To all his followers he gave admonition that they should continuously pray to Jehovah God: "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [religionists, who use vain repetitions and constantly finger their beads, thinking they shall be heard and answered] do; for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking." Continuing, Jesus said: "Be not ye therefore like unto them; for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of before ye ask him. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. (Matthew 6; 7-10). This further shows that the coming establishment of The THEOCRATIC GOVERNMENT is the great and important purpose of Jehovah, and which must be carried out by Christ Jesus the King.
The faithful apostles of Jesus Christ were selected by Jehovah and given to Jesus as witnesses of Jehovah. For three and one-half years Jesus had continuously given testimony to the name and kingdom of Jehovah God and had instructed his disciples whom God had chosen and given to him. When he had finished his earthly work he addressed himself to Jehovah his Father in these words: "I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out, of the world; thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee." -John 17: 6, 7.
From the days of the apostles forward Jehovah continued to select his witnesses to bear testimony to his name and his kingdom in the earth. Those proving faithful God assigns to a place in "the body" or organization of Christ Jesus; and concerning such it is written: "But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him." (1 Corinthians 12: 18) This is conclusive proof that Jehovah's witnesses are those, and those only, whom God selects, and whom no man can select.
Fully aware of God's purpose to have his witnesses in the earth, and after reviewing the selection of these witnesses by Jehovah God from Abel to John the Baptist, and after calling attention to Christ Jesus, the great "FAITHFUL AND TRUE WITNESS," the faithful apostle Paul, also one of Jehovah's witnesses, selected by Jehovah God and under inspiration of God, gives this admonition to all persons who enter into a covenant to be fully obedient unto Jehovah God and his kingdom, to wit: "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who, for the joy that was set before him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds." (Hebrews 12: 1-3) This is further and corroborative proof that Jehovah's covenant people, selected and anointed by him, are his witnesses, and not subject to the orders of men contrary to God's will.
In the light of the foregoing Scriptural testimony it must be admitted by all sincere persons that it would be blasphemy to claim that any man is the founder and organiser of Jehovah's witnesses. It is offering an indignity to Almighty God to designate his witnesses as "a sect or cult."
As further evidence as to who constitute Jehovah's witnesses, and who selects them, note the following Scriptural proof. In this present day all the world is under religious influence or demonism. There are numerous religious organizations operating with other political rulers and gangsters, together claiming the right to rule the earth, which claim constitutes blasphemy of the name of Jehovah God and his King. Divers remedies are offered to the people by these nations and their rulers, each offered remedy claiming that such respective remedy would bring about a satisfactory condition to the people. All of them deny God and Christ and are opposed to The THEOCRATIC GOVERNMENT. Are they justified in their claims and the position they take?. Jehovah speaks and says: "Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled; who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified; or let them hear, and say, It is truth." (Isaiah 43: 9) Otherwise stated, God commands that the religionists justify themselves by their testimony or else admit that they are wrong and then accept the truth. Then addressing those who have covenanted to do the will of God and who have devoted themselves unconditionally to the great THEOCRACY, Jehovah says: "Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he; before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you; therefore ye are my witnesses saith the Lord, that I am God." -Isaiah 43: 10-12.

HOW SELECTED
What must a person do in order to put himself in line to be selected by Jehovah as one of his witnesses? He must believe or have faith that Jehovah is the only true and almighty God, and that Christ Jesus, the beloved Son of God, is man's redeemer. "Without faith it is impossible to please [God]; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Hebrews 11: 6) To all such as have a sincere desire to be followers of Christ Jesus, and hence servants of God, Jesus says: "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me," (Matthew 16: 24) Obeying these injunctions, the person unconditionally agrees to do the will of God, and that means his consecration of himself to do whatsoever the Lord's commandments direct him to do. The will of God concerning all such persons is stated in the Bible, and therefore the Scriptures constitute the guide for the Christian. To 'deny oneself, as Jesus directs, means that the person must put aside his own selfish will and determine to be guided by the will of God. If God accepts the consecration of that person, he begets him, that is to say, he acknowledges that person to be his servant and son for his purpose: "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." (James 1: 18} Thus Jehovah God accepts that person or selects him to be his servant, and from that time forward that servant is in a covenant to do the will of God, even as Jesus likewise does the will of his Father. (Ps. 40: 8) The servant is called to follow where Christ Jesus, the Master, leads: "For even hereunto were ye called; because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps." -1 Peter 2: 21.
How may the servant or person know that he is in a covenant to do God's will? The spirit of God reveals it to him; as it is written: "The spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God." (Romans 8: 16) Does that consecrated person need some other person, some man, to tell him whether he is a follower of Christ Jesus or not? No; because it is an individual matter between the creature and the Lord as to whether or not that person is in a covenant with God and has been accepted by the Lord. The person judges himself by the fixed rule of God, which never changes, and if he is the servant of God the spirit of God enlightens his mind and instructs him. Says the Lord God to such chosen ones: "I will instruct thee, and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go; I will guide thee with mine eye." (Psalm 32: 8) For that reason it is absolutely necessary for the creature thus consecrating himself to carefully study the Word of God that he may be informed as to God's will concerning him. God anoints his selected or "elect" ones by his spirit: "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you; but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." -1 John 2: 27.

HIS NAME
For what purpose does God select his servants? In order that such persons so selected may be witnesses to the name and kingdom of Jehovah God. It is written: "God at the first did visit the Gentiles [non-Jews], to take out of them a people for his name." (Acts 15: 14) Those who are selected by the Lord God must thereafter be witnesses to the name of Jehovah, the Almighty God, and to his. kingdom. His name has been reproached for centuries, his name must be vindicated, and Jehovah commands that a witness concerning his name must be given before that day of vindication, The consecrated person who is selected as Jehovah's witness must therefore proclaim His name and purpose to others. (Exodus 9: 16) He must become a "preacher of righteousness"; which means that he must proclaim to those who will hear the Word and purpose of Jehovah God, who is righteous. He must proclaim God's truth, and not the teachings or traditions of men. To do so he receives authority from the Lord, and is responsible to the Lord God for what he does or fails to do.
I don't think many people are going to read all of this. It may be very good. But all we need to strive for is this:

1. Love God--in loving yourself (properly, and as equals to all other humans), you are loving the Father, for the Kingdom of God is within as well as without
2. Treat your fellow human being as yourself. In other words, love your fellow human being, even if, at the time, he/she is your enemy.

The above, as I have said, are 2 things to strive for--try to forgive yourself and others if you or others fail. We're only human, of flesh and blood we're made, as "The Human League" once sang. Your only human, what can you do, as "INXS" once sang.

andy
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"Someone who makes you laugh when you wanna cry"
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