I've just seen the glaring contradiction in what I have written and I think that sums up this whole mess. I can deal with Prince's immaturity in expressing himself, and find it enjoyable, but only because he still has something of value to offer me: his music. Then again, hasn't that always been the case? It's time to move on...

Ahh, the eternal question of differing viewpoints.
Can you respect and appreciate the work of those whose
'truth' differs from your own? Can knowledge of a persons
politics or beliefs alter your appreciation of their music or art?
...Should it?

"Ain't no room for disagree"
or
"We can agree to disagree"


There are no answers...only questions.

Anji said:

Artists!



:LOL:


Actually, at his best, his art comes off with a genuine conviction that attracts me for being exactly that. When he's trying to please a certain demographic it sounds forced. So yeah.

I have to add something.

If Prince drew art from his soul, and the result was a reflection of hatred for mankind, I would not enjoy the music because good art speaks clearly to values (however non-verbal that speech is) and he's a competent artist, so I'd feel it.

But he doesn't...he preaches happiness, at least at the higher levels of abstraction, and the how (whether it be J.W. or what) are mere details that can be abstracted away from--up to a point anyway, from this listener's perspective. The J.W. themes of TRC, for example, are to me a harmless mythological backdrop for more important grander themes, as "good and evil" are the grander themes of the mundane details of the Jedi in Star Wars. It's the ideas that count, not the names and places.

When values get really abstract, as most art is, it reaches themes that all humans can understand. And happiness values are something I can feel and groove on.

teller said:

i agree with what you're saying, but the undertone of the message lately is "my way or the highway" which is fine, but if he's got a closed mind about it, why should i just accept it as a closely held personal belief of his and be tolerant of it?

AaronMaximus said:

Because a truly tolerant person does not become intolerant just because he
encounters a "close-minded" person.
Now U certainly don't have to tolerate the message in order to be tolerant of the messenger.

SensualMelody said:

oh, i'm certainly tolerant of him and the message. i still buy his music, no matter how insane he gets.

still, why would anyone expect people to have an open mind to what he's saying when his mind is closed? if he's not open to other views, that's automatically going to make people intolerant of his. that's human nature.

BorisFishpaw said:

The difference is in saying what I believe IS the truth, instead of saying I BELIEVE this is the truth. The first leaves no room for disagreement, while the latter does. Albeit subtle, it makes of a world of difference.

And yes, I think knowledge of a person's politics and beliefs can alter your appreciation of their music or art. I used to appreciate Prince's music more than nowadays, because I could agree a lot more with his former beliefs, political and relgious, which actually were more or less the same during his entire carreer. Knowledge of a person's business practices also makes a huge difference (for me at least), especially when those practices are not in line with his religious and political beliefs, making it all look more like hypocracy than honest faith.

--
[This message was edited Fri Sep 12 1:52:22 PDT 2003 by Abrazo]

Anji said:

see my answer above. Prince isn't saying: "I BELIEVE this is the truth". He is saying: "What I believe IS the truth, so there ain't not room for disagree", which is a small step towards saying: "Get out, heathen!" (if you don't accept my version of the truth as the truth)


It's not amusing. And for the record, I personally have little problem with his religious beliefs, altho' I do undertsand why others have and I do think he could be less absolute in his expressions. My personal problem with his expressions is more in the realm of his political beliefs, which I think he expresses in a very offensive manner, not regarding the least who is listening and how it will come across. For a big part, "The Cause" of fan's reactions lies with Prince himself and therefore Prince should look at himself first if he wants to blame the issues the Prince community has on somebody, instead of instantly blaiming it all on his fans, and instantly alienating any fan that has a problem with what and how he expresses himself.

Like I said: he shouldn't stop expressing himself, but he should realise WHO he is directing his messages to, take that into account, and try to bring the message in a way that doesn't provoke so many people to become so defensive.


Not all have the same confidence as you Anji. I referred to the power messages of an artist like Prince can have on certain fans. I am trying to say with that that Prince has more responsibility in how he expresses himself and what he says than any average person from the street.


No, I do not feel like that, but many self-proclaimed "fams" feel like that. I think it si ridiculous to say that, but Prince does and has been for a couple of years now. That's why I have a problem with him doing that. I mean, just take a look here at prince.org, even here there are still many so-called fams defending Prince for every move and fart he makes. To me, it becomes sometimes frightening to see how much influence he can have on certain people. That kind of influence can be abused easily, especially when it is connected to a business, religious and political agenda. Just saying...



No, that doesn't make him a friend, so my question is: why does he keep on referring to fans as friends? (i.e. only the fans that are willing to call themselves and act like "fams", i.e. never criticising any move or fart he makes.) You don't ask that question. That kind of way of dealing with your fans does not show me that he has a sense of business about him. In fact, now that we are "talking business" Prince has proven to be such a lousy businessman that I think he has no business sense at all, which is a shame, because he controls all his business now, but doesn't have a clue on how to get on with it without alienating just about any long time fan/ customer. In fact his business sense has caused his fanbase to dwindle almost to the point where there are only a bunch of "fams" left, willing to kiss his ass day and night, while the public at large believes Prince has retired years ago.
Who is to blame for that?
You and I both know the answer to that.
--
[This message was edited Fri Sep 12 2:17:47 PDT 2003 by Abrazo]

AaronMaximus said:

In other words that's what I mean.

You are letting this thread die now, Anji?

.
[This message was edited Mon Sep 15 11:15:07 PDT 2003 by naturegirl]

Fascinating thread….

One thing I found interesting was the focus on whether or not Anji wrote the dialogue and that he divulge his source for the material… People became obsessed with the source rather than the message…

Excerpt of said obession:


It sparked conversation….



The point is that discussion has taken place, as I’m sure Anji knew it would, and many fine points are being made. Do you need to know the source of a point in order to understand or discuss it?


I’ve been a fan for 24 years now. I cannot begin to express how much of an impact Prince, his music and their messages have had on my life. I would need chapters, volumes, novels and libraries to contain the vast multitude of lessons, edification and joy I’ve received from this man and his music.

As a youth, Prince spoke his truth. That truth was never concerned with who heard it. That truth was never concerned with being popular. That truth was never concerned with appeasing anyone. That truth was only concerned in expressing itself. The main focus on his expression in his youth was in unity, love, coming together…black, white, Puerto Rican everybody just a freakin. Nowadays, his messages seem to divide rather than unite.

Many of you know me as a challenger of religion. I grew up religious and went from thinking I knew all the answers to realizing that I hardly know any. And I’ve watched Prince go from realizing he has none to thinking he has them all. My belief is that nobody, not one person, not one group holds all the right answers and nobody is exclusive to the truth.

We are varied…in our thoughts, our emotions, and our physical makeup. We can only seek to come together and find our commonality. That is what makes the world a fantastic place. That is what I loved about Prince when I was growing up. He put a message out there and let it stand as a beacon or a well, something to guide and replenish. Those messages brought salvation to many of us. To me, music is the closest we'll get to hearing the voice of God. How can God's voice not save you? One man's gift has created a whole community that spans every part of the globe. That kind of gift can only come from God.

I have been pained watching Prince bind himself in chains. I understand the many twists and turns that life has to offer. I’ve been through many myself. Being 33, I understand that for the young sexuality is a primary drive and focus. It’s what your body understands. And as you get older, you realize that there is more to life than just fucking. My libido is still as huge as ever, but I myself find the need and desire to grow and connect on higher levels. I understand that about getting older.

I too am confortable enough in my own skin and with my own faith and beliefs that I don’t feel the need to jump ship because Prince is singing a different tune than he used to. If Prince actually verbally acknowledged that he had problems with Gay people, I would cease to support him financially. But in all honesty, I would still seek out his work (without paying him for it) because over 2/3 of my life has been spent relishing in this man’s art and I honestly can’t say that my curiosity would not get the best of me to want to listen to what kind of music he was making and what he was saying.

I too think that Prince cannot be contained. Prince was never one to be kept cooped up in a box. Everything about him proves otherwise. It's only a matter of time before the bubble bursts....

.
[This message was edited Sun Sep 14 19:39:10 PDT 2003 by SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy]

Great contribution to this thread super. You explain perfectly why so many fans, who have been along for the ride for a long time, can not easily let go of Prince and his music, just because they don't agree with his new found beliefs, be they political, religious, or his practices in business. Like you said: if he is serious with being anti-gay then you wouldn't support him financially anymore, but you would still listen to his music. There are some on this website that would tell you to either like it or leave it. But you explain perfectly why leaving is not such an easy thing to do, especially when the man's music has helped you a great deal in your lifetime.

It's a shame tho' that Anji himself has stopped commenting on this thread. I would like to hear what he has to say about your comments.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

A heartfelt response. I hear what you are saying, Supa, and understand where you are coming from.

I guess my principles or emotions have learned to stand alone from Prince's, or anyone's for that matter, although he still is a source of great inspiration. To be honest with you, I look at him nowadays and try to decipher what I can learn from him in terms of his 'success' factors, and where I see things going poorly for him.

I also sense things have a huge potential for turning somewhat psychotic for him, unfortunately. And that will be very much related to his affiliation with the JW's organisation, and a number of other factors I'd rather not go into. He will never reject God, though. Or at least, let's hope not from his sanity's point of view.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

I was thinking the same thing.

Anji said:

Anji, I dont know U well, but it seems U have a very deep passion 4 humanity & topics surrounding psychological issues & prince. Your young, & thats cool. IMO, I would classify this as more sociological. It involves how certain "groups" are reacting 2 prince's newly found religious views, and thus how they affect the many "types" ( if U will ) of these groups who are his fans. I agree wholeheartedly that an artist is true unto himself, & MUST produce the art that is flowing within himself. I feel prince IS doing that, but harbouring a guilt deep within him that makes him yield 2 his fanbase's wishes, as he wants them 2 be happy, BUT...he also wishes 2 do "JUST SO MUCH" & is doing so. ( I guess the "psych" enters here ) His religious beliefs seem 2 be serious & important to him, ( as always, but more so now ) and lots of WHAT it WAS he once believed has CHANGED! Change is good though. Lots of us know what the JW'S beliefs are. Since prince is VERY likely a JW, one can assume he NOW has joined in those beliefs as well, and people are putting words in his mouth that HE hasnt said, but innuendo's and other accusations continue to mount. By the way prince conducts himself these days, I guess, one can assume alot! Now, we are dealing here with the homosexuality issue, not swearing, the importance to him in getting out the "TRUTH" about his ancestors, his not being suggestive, there being ONLY ONE God, as well as some things he ALWAYS believed in & passed along to his fans. In LOTS of ways I love how he changed 4 his betterment, & this also, he tries 2 pass along 2 his fans. He might be tired of "TRYING" 2 convey his convictions to his fans who only down him & dont want 2 HEAR what he has 2 say anymore. This is probably why he chose instrumentals and not talking or singing, of late. The fans not joining him in his chosen journey will just not be accepted by prince, IMO, as much as this makes him unhappy, he will, as always, do his own thing because it makes HIM happy & thats how it should be! IT IS NOT PRINCE WEEDING OUT THE HEATHENS, IT IS THE PEOPLE WHO CANNOT ACCEPT HIM AS HE IS TODAY, THAT R LEAVING HIM! He has a right to put out any music he wishes, and live any lifestyle & practice any religion he wants. But in essence he's saying if U dont like what I do, GET OUT. Dont listen. Dont follow me. Your choice. He has reached the point where he probably shouldnt care to pile in the mega-bucks 4 materialistic things, women dressed & acting like ho's, 7 fancy high class cars, being on the top 40, dancing like a chippendale dancer etc. He has ALL the devoted fanbase he needs 4 life!!! I guess one day IF he feels the need 2 convert people in order 2 buy his music even, thats HIS choice bcuz its HIS music. I hope he never gets that stringent myself, but then its MY choice if I choose 2 go there with him. Criticizing & complaining all the time will only make matters worse & possibly send him into reclusiveness. He can only give what he can & he really stretches it already. No one needs to feel guilty about what they cant do, when they already done "ALL THEY CAN". We divide ourselves, I'm afraid. We still can ALL love1another and form a bond through loving prince & his art, no matter what HE believes in, & if one listens closely & takes time to understand, his music STILL preaches togetherness 4 one & all.

What a great discussion! I've enjoyed reading all of your thoughts on this subject.

I think alot has been made of Prince's supposed 'exclusivist' message of late. Of course, Prince has always wanted to share his truth with us...just look at songs like The Ladder, God, Around The World in a Day, The Love We Make, The War, the whole Lovesexy album! etc etc..

In his search for the truth he has always struck me as a very open person (of course I am interpreting this from the art he has produced). Recently he seems to be less searching and feels that he has perhaps found the right path (I am not saying there is one!).

This is a difficult line to tread...on one hand he always was against people that would judge others and exclude sections of society for one reason or another (Uptown, Paisley Park)...now he feels that he has found the 'right way' - he values the path he has taken - it has lead him to the 'truth' but at the same time perhaps he feels less in touch with those that were happy to call themselves 'searchers' but still haven't found what they are looking for...

Despite the things that are said and assumed about Prince and his opinions on gays, jews whatever on this site and others at the end of the day - I feel that I have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

If you listen to ONA Live - when he plays Annastesia - he asks that we should celebrate our similarities not our differences - we should meet on a higher level.

Its my belief that Prince has found a truth that he resonates with, he probably feels uncomfortably with any 'exclusivity' that goes along with that truth (if there is any) this may or may not fade away depending on a)whether he is involved with the JWs at all b)how deeply he gets into it and if he lets it change his fundamental openess to others. He does not want to alienate anybody or say 'Get out, heathen!' - as always he wants to take us along for the ride, provoke discussion, contemplation and always tolerance.

The quote given above from 1+1+1=3 about 'aint no room for disagree' - I always thought this was a kinda tongue-in-cheek statement of fact. i.e. 'this is how its gonna be, if u wanna be with me' IMO, Prince is just saying that if a woman wnats to 'be with' him then she's got to be down with his beliefs - which is fair enough, ain't it? - its his choice!

I'm not saying that I am personally following Prince as a spiritual leader. However, I repect the honesty in his search and can relate to his feeling of having found 'the truth' and the difficult line he has to tread. Personally, I found - like someone said earlier in the thread - that I ultimately came to value the journey more than the destination and concluded that I could never say that I held the truth in my hand - I predict and hope that Prince will find the same thing...

Om
[This message was edited Thu Sep 18 6:27:47 PDT 2003 by OmManiPadmeHum]