I've been reading alot about Miles Davis and I've notice the silmilarities the two have in both of their careers. Just like Prince, Miles Davis was seen as a strange cat who pissed of alot of his fans, by the career choices he made. I was talking with one of my College Professor 2day, he's a music lover who had the opportunity of seeing Miles Davis live before he passed away. I told him about how alot of Prince fans are mad at Prince, because of the sudden silence Prince choose 2 display, he went on talking about how Miles Davis did alot of similar things, such as ...

If u went to a Miles Davis concert, Sometimes he would even go as far as, he would play the whole show with his back turned towards the audience and they where never get 2 see his face all night. The only difference is, I think Miles Davis audience was a little more mature and instead of trashing Miles, they loved this act ... even though the tickets would be sky high

I told him about the recent silence Prince has been displaying 4 whatever reasons, he said Miles Davis very rarely talked 2 his audience during the live shows

The more I think about it, I think Prince is becoming more and more like how Miles Davis was in his career. Alot of people didn't understand what was going on, however, like Prince, Miles Davis just had a love for music in his heart, he did what he wanted 2 do regardless if pissed people off or not,which is the reason why I respect both of this cats .

After having the dicussion with my professor, I was thinking to myself, maybe Miles Davis had a lasting impression on Prince more then what we think. They did have a specail kind of relationship, My analysis is, maybe Prince is still trying 2 pay contribute 2 one of the greatest Musician there ever was whenever Miles Davis Mentioned Prince in a interview, you could see his eyes light up like he was talking about his own son.

Basically it's like this ...

Prince begin as a pop artist which establish his music career. Pop is a mixture of all music tied in all 2gether, he's been in the music 4 2 decades and drew in most of his music fans from the whole pop era... We still expecting that pop thingy from Prince even though I do believe he has moved on from that status. This is why I think alot of fans didn't like the recent stuff Prince has done, it's not just some catchy beats,tune or song 2 top charts, it's complicated music we just don't unuderstand, because we still want 2 hear the when doves cry stuff...If your are a true musicain , you really do have 2 experience all areas of music. I think it would only make since 4 Prince 2 do all insturmental record showing off the skillz he really
has.

Whenever I listen 2 N.E.W.S that's exactly what I hear... Just a little hint of Miles Davis

I agree with DigitalLisa 100%

DigitalLisa said:

The only difference? What about the quality of the music itself? And don't come back at me with "jazz elitists" comments. I'm really trying to stay open to what Prince is playing nowadays, but you really would have to be deaf to think Prince's instrumentals are on par with (most of) what Miles Davis played even in the 80's and 90's (especially live).

Olivier

olb99 said:

Oh shit!! I've gone deaf then!!

Jamademus said:

I fear so. There's nothing wrong with liking Prince's instrumentals. But Miles Davis definitely plays at a different level, that's all. We're talking about someone who played with John Coltrane, Bill Evans, Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, Keith Jarrett, Kenny Garrett, and many other "masters". I don't doubt that Prince is better than Miles Davis at playing and writing pop/funk/rock tunes, but when it comes to instrumentals, he's just average at best. I guess you cannot be good everywhere. Can't you just accept that?

Olivier

olb99 said:

A lil' definsive there?

Relax, Lisa was making some intresting points(Maybe she ain't that knowledgable about Davis' effort) but she was talking in general terms. She ain't gotta have 2 make a research and write an essay just 2 please yo ass.

You should try 2 overlook the simple mistakes.

Peace out!

P.S. Intresting thread Lisa, HI 5!
[This message was edited Tue Sep 2 14:12:28 PDT 2003 by Harlepolis]

olb99 said:

I'm sorry Olivier. I'm big fan of Miles and love his work. I have all the fusion era albums from In a Silent Way onwards. I have most of his earlier stuff. As U said Miles has played with most of the great jazz musicians of the modern era from Charlie Parker onwards. Miles' legacy is in many ways unsurpassed.
However I think Princes recent projects stand up really well. N.E.W.S is a great album it goes through many moods and styles and there is PASSION there. 4 me thats more than enough.
OK It's not Bitches Brew, or In A Silent Way. But those albums happened 30 years ago.
Can't U accept that people are entitled 2 they're opinions?
Princes recent direction 4 me is exciting and I'm sorry but 4 me N.E.W.S compares well with Miles later work. It beats the shit out of Doo Bop!
Easy Mo Be?
LORD!!

Harlepolis said:

Simple mistakes? I thought it was the point of her whole post: Prince = Miles Davis. The only difference is their audience: Prince's audience = immature; Miles Davis' audience = mature (of course, I'm simplifying here). While people can be mature *and* think that Prince sucks at playing instrumentals (the main difference between Prince and Miles being the quality of their instrumental music).

I can say it another way, if you want. Miles could play electric music, turn his back to the audience, and be an ***hole, because he was good. Because his band was good. Not because his audience was more mature. I'm pretty sure he lost a lot of fans when switching to electric instruments.

Olivier

Jamademus said:

Mmmh, yes, and Miles Davis died 12 years ago. "So what?"



That's something you read a lot on the internet. So much that it doesn't mean anything anymore. We all have opinions. Some are just more informed than others. If bad taste doesn't exist (I mean, objectively), then I'm the Pope (as some might say).



What would you say if someone used "Jughead" or "Graffiti Bridge" to compare Prince to another musician? Mmmh? That's what I thought...

Olivier

Miles never played his old stuff - apart from twice, I think...one gig at the end of his career, and once he redid some for a recording, possibly...

I might be wrong here. I forget. But that's neither here nor there.

Miles was a harder person than Prince. He went through a LOT of shit.

Now, much as I love Prince - and I properly do - Miles had more to complain about than Prince ever did. Difference is, Miles didn't complain.

When did Prince get beat up outside one of his own gigs by the police for being black, and then not be allowed to finish the concert because he was hauld to jail with his music union license confiscated?? When did Prince get shot in his hip when getting in his car? When did Prince get as ill as Miles - so ill he could barely do owt? When did [Wynton Marsalis] (add your own 'new Prince' here for comparison) come onstage with Prince and try to play, after being told not to, and also only a short while after slagging off the old school?

Yes, 'Doo Bop's a shit album. So's 'Never Let Me Down', but does that make Bowie's '...Ziggy Stardust' or 'Low' any crapper?

Miles had a lot of real indignities to put up with. Also a lot of problems he made for himself. There are slight similarities in personal choices, yeah, but ultimately, they aren't alike. Miles did like Prince a lot of course, yeah, and that was reciprocated, I'm sure.

For my money, 'N.E.W.S.' sounds a bit like Herbie Hancock in places at any rate.

Sorry if this is all over the shop and seems to aggressive, or pointless. I'm pretty damn knackered here...probably made a fool of myself.

olb99 said:

Actually I wasn't talking about the music in general,
I was simply talking about how both seemed 2 be the outcast around thier peers and in their music career/ legacy.
[This message was edited Tue Sep 2 18:01:03 PDT 2003 by Mizzunderstood]

IMO IMO IMO...

to everyone on this thread, you all have good points. miles was a master at what he did, but if you go back and listen to the different things he did in different times, comparitively speaking in terms of the types of music that was being produced during each time respectively, then you gotta give prince some credit. after all, madhouse reflects trhe mid 80's the way it should...

listen to jazz radio today and tell me that you don't appreciate what prince did with xpectation. n.e.w.s., on the other hand, isn't really a jazz piece. at least not IMO, and i don't think it's intended to be. i think of it as long jam sessions like the soundchecks we got to go to...

as far as the great musicians miles played with, very true. but who were they back then? i mean in the eyes of the public. 40 years from now, people will list the fabulous talents that prince once played with. we have no idea with what revere it will be, so IMHO that isn't a fair point at this time.

i can truly appreciate jazz purists being protective of the artform. i've learned a true appreciation of jazz over the past 4 years (i'm 38 now). i've thrown myself into straight ahead jazz, bop, and fusion. i've read miles' autobiography and comprehensive text. i watched the entire 10 tape series by ken burns. and have aquired numerous recordings to familiarize myself with this form of expression. i even subscribe to a magazine called jazziz. and i still don't consider myself any kind of expert or anything...

i do know what sounds good. i've djed for 18 years and have reeped most of my success (non-commercial by the way) from my programming abilities. i've seen so much change in pop music that i need a scorecard. i felt prince when he said 'we gonna re-define the pop. miles davis used to be pop'. most of the so-called jazz coming out, at least in the mainstream, is this smooth jazz shh..tuff that makes most purists stomachs turn. at least prince is producing QUALITY music. it may not be 'pure' jazz, but it lives up to the spirit of jazz... it's FREE!

prince is a 'pure' musician. trying to compare him to any artist, in any format, is futile...

again, IMO, IMO, IMO... thanks for listening.

great thread

there are similarities between

prince and miles

they both are complicated personas

they are both private

they both are innovators

and they are black men

do not belittle what prince has

experienced as a black man in america

racism is alive and kickin

miles put raw sensuality in his jazz

prince oozes sensuality


the list goes on about their similarities

i'm sure there are many differences
also

the health issue is big

prince takes great care of himself

miles could have did better in that area


all in all both men are legendary

peterv said:

well 2 my understanding, I always thought pop music was a form of different styles of music all thrown in 2gether and if anybody knows how 2 play different styles of music, that artist would be Prince. Prince was more then just a catergorize pop artist like the media sometimes like 2 potray him, he was a funk, artist which was just another form of jazz, gospel and R&B, he was a Rock & Roll artist,he had a country influece and he played the blues which ultimately catergorize him as a pop artist, because of everything mentioned above. Almost every artist has some type of influence in their background, you know the person who they look up 2 the most. There's 2 people who I think made a difference in Prince life and those people I think where Larry Ghram and Miles Davis.

Miles Davis was a jazz artist true enough, but Prince also had the skillz 2 play as Miles did, even though He first came out as a Pop artist.That's what I believe some of fans go wrong, we still want 2 think Prince is a that pop artist he once was, when actually Prince is trying to getbeyond that.



Now when we get all old and grey, I'm sure Prince will end up being one of those great like Miles Davis is 2day and the next generation will be talking about all what he done 4 the music world .
[This message was edited Wed Sep 3 9:35:40 PDT 2003 by DigitalLisa]

DigitalLisa said

"well 2 my understanding, I always thought pop music was a form of different styles of music all thrown in 2gether and if anybody knows how 2 play different styles of music, that artist would be Prince. Prince was more then just a catergorize pop artist like the media sometimes like 2 potray him, he was a funk, artist which was just another form of jazz, gospel and R&B, he was a Rock & Roll artist,he had a country influece and he played the blues which ultimately catergorize him as a pop artist, because of everything mentioned above. Almost every artist has some type of influence in their background, you know the person who they look up 2 the most. There's 2 people who I think made a difference in Prince life and those people I think where Larry Ghram and Miles Davis.

Miles Davis was a jazz artist true enough, but Prince also had the skillz 2 play as Miles did, even though He first came out as a Pop artist.That's what I believe some of fans go wrong, we still want 2 think Prince is a that pop artist he once was, when actually Prince is trying to getbeyond that.



Now when we get all old and grey, I'm sure Prince will end up being one of those great like Miles Davis is 2day and the next generation will be talking about all what he done 4 the music world ."




i feel you on this... i wish more people did... still, discussion is good. let's keep this one going y'all...

peterv said:

Everyone-do yourself a favor & read "MILES"-Miles' autobiography. It is so funny, insightful, brash, arrogant, & off the cuff-much like Miles music. Alot of Prince references...I think Prince is much more artistically challenged when he channels heros like MILES, and far less challenged when channels (works with) Larry, Chaka, or these young hip-hop acts. Prince is far more talented then them...where Miles is pound for pound the truest musician/artist there has been. He balanced being an artist (inventive, daring, restless, challenging) with being a musician. Prince hasn't recorded anything musically challenging or iventive in quite a while. He's resorted to philosophical changes, life changes, & technical changes...but has yet to do something new as a artist. Prince as a pop star is maybe the greatest/purest music artist of his time (I think he's done just as challenging things as the Beatles...probably more.) Only David Bowie is a great arguement-Bowie also balanced Artistry, musicianship, & cultural relevence. Where Prince is not as relevent as is Bowie 2day, Prince is a far better musician.
So stopping the tangental sidetrack: PRINCE in our generation/time can be the heir to Miles title...he just needs to go a little further-2 really surpass him.

my 2 sense

Nero

neronava said:

What u trying 2 say,
Prince ain’t a musical genius ?
I mean I heard Miles Davis say that about Prince myself and about Prince not having any good music since the early 90's, every artist has a dry spell, Prince ain't no exception 2 the rules. I don't know about you but I think Xpectations and N.E.W.S is great, it's Miles Davis all the way baby


Blue in Green edit
[This message was edited Wed Sep 3 12:08:52 PDT 2003 by DigitalLisa]

DigitalLisa said:

The truth is, we just never realize who all the greats are until it’s 2 late and they’re already gone. Maybe People will start 2 appreciate Prince when it's 2 late ...

Sad but true

You've got to respect both men. Comparing them is ridiculous. One man plays several instruments, sings, danceD, wrote numerous songs ranging from a wide spectrum of musical genres. The other man was one of the best at his particular instrument and was at the forefront of various musical innovations. You can't compare that.
Jazz purists are a joke. Miles himself didn't like to categorize his music and put it in a little box. To try and degrade Prince's or anybody else's music by saying it isn't real jazz is stupid. You missed the whole fucking point and spirit of "jazz". The artists themselves didn't call it that unless they needed to market it-- the shit is free-form music. There are no boundaries until you give it a name. What's that quote of Miles'? I'll play it for you now and tell you what it is later. (I think)

whodknee said:

That's what I'm saying
If u can't catergorize true musicianship in2 one genere
Then how can we say Prince was purely a pop artist, who can't play jazz music, or Miles Davis was a jazz artist who can't dig pop music? Truth is it's all music and if you're a true musician you should have the alibity 2 play any kind of music, regardless of what it is, without being catergorize solely in2 one .. ... I think everybody is missing my point, I'm not saying that Prince had more skillz then Miles Davis or Miles Davis had more skillz then Prince, all I was saying was they did have alot of silmilarities...

What you don't think Prince didn't expereince any racism in his early career, I mean when Prince first came out as artist MTV wasn't even playing videos from black artist, until Micheal Jackson came along... When Prince first went on tour as a opening act 4 the rolling stones, He was booed off the stage, purely because of racial issues ... I mean y'all telling me 2 my research on Miles Davis , well I think maybe some of u need 2 do ur research on Prince history again

DigitalLisa said:

What are you trying to say??? I never doubted Princes genius, nor did I deny his genius...what are you talking about.

And its fair to compare Miles & Prince, because they're both innovators in the field of music.

neronava said:

oh i getchu

I'll admit I didn't read it all and asuming you was just trying 2 diss Prince my bad

Lisa, I don't think Prince was booed offstage 4 just being black. The whole 'underpants and high-heels' image of the time probably put off much of the crowd that day. Sorry THOSE day's he supported them twice didn't he?

DigitalLisa said:

I have to say SNOOZE is about as complicated as a Sesame Street Alphabet song.

DigitalLisa said:

We all know he has skills, it's not having skills that counts, it's how you implement them.

As a side note, I know some Prince fans get snobby because Prince is a fantastic musician, and kinda deride other artists who aren't as proficient.

You can be the technically the best player in the world, but there's a difference between being a great player and a great entertainer - Prince is a bit of both, and it goes tits-up when he steers too much in either direction IMO.

If you read Miles's book he speaks very highly of Prince. And on some level it's like he was trying to pass some kind of torch to him. I think at that time in the late 1980's Prince was at the top of the mountain, riding high. He called him a little genius, and even went so far as saying M.J. can dance but Prince is a musical package.


But Miles also endorsed Cameo, what is up with that???

Music is a very funny and frightening business. I hear alot of how Prince was better in the 80's and he should return to those roots. How dumb would he be for repeating Purple Rain lyrics and music for 20 something years. Whether we dig what he puts out all the time is not the point. Musicians must constantly keep pushing musical boundaries. As a musician (and a serious one) paths we take in music aren't always clear. To others it might seem stupid. But to chose to leave certain bands, not play on big time recordings is hard. But deep in our hearts we have to follow the road that keeps our music respectable in our eyes. Whatever you put your name on and endorse follows you and says something about the person you are. Prince knows deep in his heart his music will not be appreciated until his death. I bet that on everything. He his a legend. Most artist and painter's works aren't of much value until there demise. Mark my words, you will remember this thread when P isn't with us anymore and think csharp was on to something.

DigitalLisa said:

Too true

csharp57 said:

This is true

But the things even if Prince tried 2 repeat the purple rain success I don't think it would be as good as the first time, I mean y'all know the sayin' right, if it ain't broke the don't try 2 fix it ... I'm comfortable with leaving purple rain era in the past

DigitalLisa said:

I agree 100%!!!