Anji said: papabeat said: Your position that he was surrounding himself with legends to boost his ego makes no sense. First, it wasn't precedent setting, as he'd done it before with Mavis Staples and George Clinton, legends arguably more legendary than either Larry or Chaka. Second, why would associating himself with has-beens boost his ego? Maybe he merely was fulfilling a childhood dream by working with his musical idols.
I think Prince acutely recognised his struggle between money and art especially during the Rave era. I think that's because he realised he hadn't managed to do anything successfully post Warner Brothers. He neither managed a great selling album during that era, nor did he manage fully supporting any truly artistic endeavours. That is, until The Rainbow Children.
Regarding The Truth, Prince has always sought new avenues for getting his music out. In the case of Crystal Ball, offering an extensive set of archival material, PLUS a brand new album. It's like a greatest hits cd with 3 new songs. It doesn't necessarily mean that he wasn't confident in the merits of The Truth. Assuming you're right, does that mean that along with High, Prince regarded both One Night Alone and Xpectation as less worthy projects, given their fan-club only status? And if so, that means three of his last five albums have been deemed as having not enough merit for traditional release, hardly the artistic rebirth you're claiming. (For the record, I don't believe the 3 of 5 claim - I'm merely posing the argument. I think TRC is brilliant, High sucks, ONA is as worthy as The Truth, Xpectation is brilliant, and N.E.W.S. a nonfactor, a pretty good track record over the last 3 years.) One might argue that by surrounding himself with the likes of Larry and Chaka, he could have sub-consciously been making himself feel better about his inability to achieve what it is he clearly set out to do since The Gold Experience. I definitely think he found comfort in surrounding himself with his idols during a time when commercial success alluded him. The artistic rebirth I'm suggesting started with The Rainbow Children and has continued since. Although I rate the other projects in being part of this era, I would only consider The Rainbow Children and N.E.W.S. as being worthy of retail release. That's not contradictory to what I have been saying. Except he did have a great selling album after WB. Emancipation - which also was a critical success, it central criticism being too much Prince music (that's a complaint?) - which sold over 700,000 copies (700+K * 3 discs = 2.3 million sales). You may think it was an artistic copout, but The Truth was also well regarded in reviews for CB. So that's 2 critically received albums between 1996 and 2001, when we saw TRC. Three artistic victories in six years - not bad, given that some musicians won't release one album in that span. | |
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The only thing I like about it is that u have 2 give Him credit where credit is due - it is unlike ANYTHING he has ever released before, and 4 that (whether u like it or not) he should be applauded I say.
That doesn't mean we want more tho P! The only thing that bugs me about it really is why he decided 2 release N*E*W*S as an officially released Prince album/product yet Xpectation was only available as a download 2 the NPGMC. it may be subjective/relative - but Xpectation is the stronger album of the 2...surely? | |
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Jestyr said: I’ve been asked to contribute my thoughts to this thread and I while I wish I had more time to spend contemplating my contribution, I decided I would capture my initial thoughts as quickly as I can. I think that provides more interesting results sometimes.
I want to share something with you. I’m from a very musical family. My father is a bass player, guitarist and vocalist, been a musician all of his adult life, is now in his sixties and told me that one thing he’s learned after all these years of playing music for a living is that for the creative person that plays music and wishes to progress, there is nowhere else to go but into jazz. Simple as that. The reason he says is that once you learn to write and record simple funk, pop or rock songs and learn all the structures and different ways to present them, it becomes a box. Limiting. Especially if you do it well. There is no envelope to push. No new landscapes to discover. No way to expand on your vocabulary. Until you go to jazz. I never really understood jazz until he explained that you must listen to jazz as if it were a conversation between the instruments. Each instrument has its voice and a sentence or paragraph to say, sometimes, like us, they talk over each other, but the main thing to remember is that it is a conversation of the moment. Abstract. So it can still present surprises for the musicians during the performance. Pop music limits you to always returning to a phrase or chorus; repetitive; more like an oration where the idea has already been presented, now it is simply being reiterated over and over. What an elitist bunch of pap. I'm sure Bob Dylan or Bruce Springsteen would love to know that they're not progressing as musicians because they haven't gravitated to jazz. Rock and roll has similar conversations between instruments, but it's up to the musician to make sure they are keeping up and exploring the different dimensions within the idiom. Many great musicians end up with some sort of jazz period. I will use the example of Joni Mitchell - one of Prince’s favorites. After some wonderful albums of very structured songs in mostly the folk music genre, she took a year off and returned with “Court and Spark” a collaboration with the LA Express, a jazz-based group of players. This was the beginning of her foray into the genre and pretty much culminated in her collaboration with Charles Mingus. As a result of these excursions, She was horribly ghetto-ized by both the jazz purists, who felt she wasn’t crating ‘real jazz’ and her existing fan base who felt she wasn’t ‘doing the music she was best at’. I am sure Prince is quite bemused to be in the same circumstance at this point in his musical journey. A creative musician creates for their own sense of understanding of themselves and their internal human struggle to be understood. Not for some fan base, nor the critics and not always for other musicians although there are exceptions to all of these. Mostly, it’s Prince’s journey and if we can tag along then - wow. Bonus for him. But we are not owed some musical equivalent of an investment return. We do not have the ability to dictate to this person what type of material he records, and we should be ashamed to desire such a thing. How can an artist create from their muse in such an environment? This is the very reason Prince fought so hard to be released from record label controls. We the fans don’t even agree on what kind of music we enjoy in general, let alone what we prefer from Prince. Specifically in regards to N.E.W.S., the criticism is baffling. I was particularly struck by comments that this is not new music and has been done and heard before and apparently there is a great misconception about what the phrase “New Directions in Music” means to Prince. It’s simply a new direction for Prince. He is not saying this is brand new music never before beheld. There also seems to be this implicit misunderstanding between Prince and his fans that some day, because he is a genius with a capital G, he will create some sort of brand new music such as the world has never heard before and revolutionize the planet with it, thus vilifying our long suffering faith in his musical mastery. I keep seeing people type things like “…music that he is capable of” or “…album that I know he still has in him”. Let me tell you, nothing created is original. Ever. That is simply not possible. All is derivative; some ideas from Lou Reed here, some concepts about arranging from Miles Davis there. And it has always been that way with Prince’s material. I don’t understand how anyone could miss that. It seems as though most people want to categorize this record as his jazz piece, but it can’t simply be put into a single category can it? It’s Prince’s version of….whatever. No original ideas? I can't truly subscribe to that reality. It's too oppressive. If I did, what need would there be for Prince? Why even try to create anything? After all, it's all been done before. There are original ideas. Take The Time, an ordinary funk and R&B combo. Except Jamie Starr took the horn charts, and turned them into beds of synth sounds. That was original. He took the familiar and made it unfamiliar, which is the original thing. Same with the legendary wiping the bass from 'Doves.' Same with making Lovesexy one track. The central problem I have with 'new directions' (and it's something I admit I should get over, they're only words, for Christ's sake), is the direct allusion to Miles' series of classic 60's albums with the phrase 'directions in music' placed at the top. Now, certainly Miles didn't invent fusion or electric jazz. But there were only a handful of groups doing it, and they'd only been doing it a couple years at most. And Miles was (still is) the biggest jazz musician in the world. Miles incorporating this sound into his group certainly is a different direction, one that shaped the way jazz was heard for the following two decades. When the allusion is placed there on the jewel case, it invites comparisons. Obviously I have more to say, and I'm addressing earlier posts on this thread, as opposed to where it has evolved to, but I know how hard it is to digest these long posts so I’ll leave it there for now. Discuss. | |
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I've said it a million times already...I'll say it again.
If you got that album, you got C.R.A.P. 'Nuff said. | |
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"Not life changing"
"Not revolutionary" "Not groundbreaking" "Not innovative" "Not a masterpiece" These are phrases I've read from online Prince fans for years now. Regardless of whether or not it's true about NEWS, Prince has set such a high standard that there is that contingent of fans out there who seem to think that if it's not any of those things that the music has little to no merit. As if they expect every single album to be that all important STATEMENT. What a wildly, unrealistic burden to be expected to re-invent the wheel everytime someone releases their creations to the public. It's as if some people infer that if the music isn't innovative, it couldn't possibly be a good. That's just silly. There's plenty of good music out there that isn't innovative. Show me an artist in any field that was innovative every single time they released their work, and I'll show you an artist who had an extremely short career. I don't read the majority of threads around here, but has anybody actually said NEWS is revolutionary? Has anybody outside of ... Muffy said it's life changing? This post not for the wimp contingent. All whiny wusses avert your eyes. | |
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No.
Because it just isnt. It's good - but it certainly isnt any of the above. It just IS. As I said, I DO take my hat off 2 him 4 actually releasing something unlike anything He has done previously. But it is FAR from innovative. The trailer promised something along this vein, and he COULD have really gone off on sonic tangents and pushed the envelope on it. But he didnt, he just jammed. It's ok - but ok dont cut it im afraid. Over the years Prince himself has raised the bar as well as us as 2 what is 'expected' of him - that's an accepted part of an artists life, whether they like it or not. But yeah - kudos 4 releasing it - but no more thanku! | |
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bananacologne said: No.
Precisely. But it is FAR from innovative...
Further proving my point... This post not for the wimp contingent. All whiny wusses avert your eyes. | |
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WeLL IV NOT HEAR THE n.e.w.s Album at all yet...will it be comeing to store's at all? Prince Fan~Natic 32 Years & Counting | |
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[Snip. Ian] | |
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2da6' s said: Honestly, if you people don't find a way to co-exist on the site with civility and start showing each other a bit of fucking courtesy and respect as human beings, I'm gonna recommend that Ben just axe the forums altogether. I've had it!!
Go away! This post not for the wimp contingent. All whiny wusses avert your eyes. | |
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SnowQueen said: Wow. What a pompous and elitist theory as to why some Prince fans don't care for his current output.
It's always bothered me, and I don't get why in the Prince fan community, there is always this constant need to be superior to other fans, be it either by some bootleg(s) you have, some "insider info" you claim to have, or some superior knowledge or appreciation of Prince's music or music in general someone thinks they possess. I see that attitude constantly exhibited all the time around here. Why is that? Why is that attitude and need to feel superior or to be "one up" on other fans SO rampant in the Prince fan community? Anyway about NEWS - no offense but maybe some people just plain DON'T LIKE IT. Period. I don't like some types of music and some types of literature and some types of art. So what? People have different tastes and just because someone doesn't care for a particular art form or genre or style doesn't make them less intelligent or sophisticated, or their opinions less valid. I myself personally like NEWS but I don't think I'm musically superior in comparison to those who don't care for it. Besides, if I like and enjoy it, what do I care if someone else doesn't? True, there are those who are totally stuck in one groove when it comes to Prince's music, whether it be one certain era or sound, and they aren't gonna like much else that doesn't fit that mold. It's too bad they aren't able to get the enjoyment from his current offerings that I do, but then they probably like stuff I don't and they'd probably feel bad for me that I can't enjoy what they do. But guess what? Maybe they just don't like jazz. Maybe they've listened to jazz over the years and found they just don't care for it. I've eaten in snooty expensive restaurants before and found I just don't like some "gourmet" cooking..I'd rather have a pizza from Pizza Hut than some of that stuff. Does that make me a less refined and sophisticated person just because I don't have an appreciation for escargot or whatever? My point is you shouldn't classify everyone who doesn't like Prince's current music as being narrowminded or less cultured or evolved than those who do like it. That's a very pompous attitude and unless you know EVERYONE'S exact life/musical experience(s) on which to base your theory, it's very silly to think an accurate assessment of them is being made. Forgive me if I misunderstood your post but I couldn't help get a feeling of arrogance and elitism from it and that sort of thing has just always bugged me so much around here so I had to say something. .. [This message was edited Fri Aug 22 12:44:01 PDT 2003 by SnowQueen] Well said, SnowQueen! | |
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Anji said: Based on how Prince appeared to judge how successful his records were post Warner Brothers / pre The Rainbow Children, I think it's safe to assume that he was not confident about a 'proper release' of "The Truth" album. Quite simply, he was motivated by sales back then (in an attempt to prove his viablity within the music industry, or make money off his fans, or both). As such, he did not realise the merit in releasing an album like "The Truth" in the same manner he now realises the merit in releasing an album like N.E.W.S.
Back when it was recorded, the plan was for The Truth to be a "free" album that would be mailed to anyone who requested it. After thinking about that idea a little further, he decided to just include it with CB instead to save money. Since the people who ordered CB through NEWFUNK got the "special" packaging (the infamous hockey puck), he didn't bother to press the individual Truth CD cases. So it was never that he considered the album unworthy of a proper release (it got great reviews)... it was just that the original idea (giving the album away for free) turned out to be more expensive, so he gave it away with CB. The fact that he sent the original Truth/Don't Play Me promo out as a special Valentines Day surprise to industry people only a few months after releasing Emancipation indicates to me that he was in fact very proud of the Truth, though he subsequently may have distanced himself from it due to how personal parts of the album are--including the time period in which he recorded it. No Candy 4 Me | |
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But to some, “soft” is anything that’s not constantly in your face. Too bad. For the patient listener there are beautifully arousing moments within the understated sections that act as foreplay for the climatic parts. And until you’ve learned to love the more subtle portions, you cannot climax the same way.
HOLD YOUR TEXT DEACON! | |
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My head is spinning. I need a glass of "watah" This topic has "texted" me so good, I say, "Blah, blah, blah!" | |
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Anji said: "Some of the reactions I’ve read on this album are clearly based in nothing more than a simple lack of experience.
One of my favorite bands right now is Godspeed You! Black Emperor, so I don't think I'm inexperienced. Prince still sounds like pretentious elevator jazzfunk drivel no matter how hard you try putting the lack of enthusiasm for it with the listener "who isn't ready for this jelly". It's crap because Prince simply doesn't have the depth to pull it off. © Bart Van Hemelen
This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights. It is not authorized by Prince or the NPG Music Club. You assume all risk for your use. All rights reserved. | |
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thedoorkeeper said: At the time The Truth was released Prince was incapable of releasing The Truth as a single cd. The only way he could release it was in a multi-cd form. At the time of Crystal Balls release Prince was still tied up in contractual obligations with Warner Bros.
Complete and utter nonsense. © Bart Van Hemelen
This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights. It is not authorized by Prince or the NPG Music Club. You assume all risk for your use. All rights reserved. | |
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BartVanHemelen said: Anji said: "Some of the reactions I’ve read on this album are clearly based in nothing more than a simple lack of experience.
One of my favorite bands right now is Godspeed You! Black Emperor, so I don't think I'm inexperienced. Prince still sounds like pretentious elevator jazzfunk drivel no matter how hard you try putting the lack of enthusiasm for it with the listener "who isn't ready for this jelly". It's crap because Prince simply doesn't have the depth to pull it off. one for me two for you: 5: the word many self-descibed naysayers have come to represent without consciously realizing it by way of continued, support: (i.e., adding traffic to Prince sites religiously/continuing to buy expensive concert tickets to see Prince live, although the rain check on complaining about the prices will be cashed soon/buying every new Prince release and subconsciously planning on hating every single note after listening to it no matter what/planning on telling the online Prince community how he's lost "it" and will never get "it" back/making sure to buy any and every book or magazine about him and analyzing every quoted syllable he utters/making sure to find out how many times Prince's bowels move per day via any Prince news at a site dedicated to him/continuing to buy and listen to bootlegs of recent gigs, although he lost "it" long ago/deeming Prince's lyrics and actions as racist, yet never having the intestinal fortitude to stop supporting that "racist"/self-righteously coming back to the online Prince community to call others "fams" who don't neurotically dwell on sweating the small shit, or put themselves into position to be used, abused, taken for granted, shunned, spit upon, receiving Prince's symbolic flipping the bird gesture/thinking because you are a fan-fam you have the right to dictate what Prince should believe on a spiritual or religious basis because of the content of his music/giving the impression that you've been used, abused, taken for granted, shunned, spit upon, received Prince's symbolic flipping the bird gesture, yet coming back to give that unstated, unwavering support on all fronts so the cycle can continue, etc.). | |
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avidya said: HOLD YOUR TEXT DEACON! Wait a minute, is that what that sample says during The Sacrafice Of Victor? I think you've just made me realise what's being said! Funny that, after all these years of not paying attention.
| |
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Jestyr said: I’ve been asked to contribute my thoughts to this thread and I while I wish I had more time to spend contemplating my contribution, I decided I would capture my initial thoughts as quickly as I can. I think that provides more interesting results sometimes.
I want to share something with you. I’m from a very musical family. My father is a bass player, guitarist and vocalist, been a musician all of his adult life, is now in his sixties and told me that one thing he’s learned after all these years of playing music for a living is that for the creative person that plays music and wishes to progress, there is nowhere else to go but into jazz. Simple as that. The reason he says is that once you learn to write and record simple funk, pop or rock songs and learn all the structures and different ways to present them, it becomes a box. Limiting. Especially if you do it well. There is no envelope to push. No new landscapes to discover. No way to expand on your vocabulary. Until you go to jazz. I never really understood jazz until he explained that you must listen to jazz as if it were a conversation between the instruments. Each instrument has its voice and a sentence or paragraph to say, sometimes, like us, they talk over each other, but the main thing to remember is that it is a conversation of the moment. Abstract. So it can still present surprises for the musicians during the performance. Pop music limits you to always returning to a phrase or chorus; repetitive; more like an oration where the idea has already been presented, now it is simply being reiterated over and over. Many great musicians end up with some sort of jazz period. I will use the example of Joni Mitchell - one of Prince’s favorites. After some wonderful albums of very structured songs in mostly the folk music genre, she took a year off and returned with “Court and Spark” a collaboration with the LA Express, a jazz-based group of players. This was the beginning of her foray into the genre and pretty much culminated in her collaboration with Charles Mingus. As a result of these excursions, She was horribly ghetto-ized by both the jazz purists, who felt she wasn’t crating ‘real jazz’ and her existing fan base who felt she wasn’t ‘doing the music she was best at’. I am sure Prince is quite bemused to be in the same circumstance at this point in his musical journey. A creative musician creates for their own sense of understanding of themselves and their internal human struggle to be understood. Not for some fan base, nor the critics and not always for other musicians although there are exceptions to all of these. Mostly, it’s Prince’s journey and if we can tag along then - wow. Bonus for him. But we are not owed some musical equivalent of an investment return. We do not have the ability to dictate to this person what type of material he records, and we should be ashamed to desire such a thing. How can an artist create from their muse in such an environment? This is the very reason Prince fought so hard to be released from record label controls. We the fans don’t even agree on what kind of music we enjoy in general, let alone what we prefer from Prince. Specifically in regards to N.E.W.S., the criticism is baffling. I was particularly struck by comments that this is not new music and has been done and heard before and apparently there is a great misconception about what the phrase “New Directions in Music” means to Prince. It’s simply a new direction for Prince. He is not saying this is brand new music never before beheld. There also seems to be this implicit misunderstanding between Prince and his fans that some day, because he is a genius with a capital G, he will create some sort of brand new music such as the world has never heard before and revolutionize the planet with it, thus vilifying our long suffering faith in his musical mastery. I keep seeing people type things like “…music that he is capable of” or “…album that I know he still has in him”. Let me tell you, nothing created is original. Ever. That is simply not possible. All is derivative; some ideas from Lou Reed here, some concepts about arranging from Miles Davis there. And it has always been that way with Prince’s material. I don’t understand how anyone could miss that. It seems as though most people want to categorize this record as his jazz piece, but it can’t simply be put into a single category can it? It’s Prince’s version of….whatever. Obviously I have more to say, and I'm addressing earlier posts on this thread, as opposed to where it has evolved to, but I know how hard it is to digest these long posts so I’ll leave it there for now. Discuss. | |
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Fantastic, spot on post Jestyr. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm a sucker for a major chord | |
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BanishedBrian said: Anji said: Based on how Prince appeared to judge how successful his records were post Warner Brothers / pre The Rainbow Children, I think it's safe to assume that he was not confident about a 'proper release' of "The Truth" album. Quite simply, he was motivated by sales back then (in an attempt to prove his viablity within the music industry, or make money off his fans, or both). As such, he did not realise the merit in releasing an album like "The Truth" in the same manner he now realises the merit in releasing an album like N.E.W.S.
Back when it was recorded, the plan was for The Truth to be a "free" album that would be mailed to anyone who requested it. After thinking about that idea a little further, he decided to just include it with CB instead to save money. Since the people who ordered CB through NEWFUNK got the "special" packaging (the infamous hockey puck), he didn't bother to press the individual Truth CD cases. So it was never that he considered the album unworthy of a proper release (it got great reviews)... it was just that the original idea (giving the album away for free) turned out to be more expensive, so he gave it away with CB. The fact that he sent the original Truth/Don't Play Me promo out as a special Valentines Day surprise to industry people only a few months after releasing Emancipation indicates to me that he was in fact very proud of the Truth, though he subsequently may have distanced himself from it due to how personal parts of the album are--including the time period in which he recorded it. It really doesn't matter if the original thought was to give The Truth album away 'for free,' because he ultimately decided that it was not financially viable to do so in the end. It always come down to finances with Prince and therefore, if Prince is standing by an artistic creation that is probably not going to sell well, I feel his views about that art are in a healthy place. The point is, he was not standing by his art back then in the same manner he now chooses to do so. Take the release of N.E.W.S., for example. It goes without saying that he needs to feel that his art means something special, as he clearly does with N.E.W.S. I don't think that is the case with Xpectation though, and I can see why. It doesn't strike me as being as soulful or inspired, but a very interesting stepping stone nonetheless. | |
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The Truth was gonna follow Emancipation on EMI as I understand it, but the label folded.
We all know Prince changes his mind on a whim, and you can't judge what he does in 1997 with what he does in 2003, in terms of business/release strategy, because he just does stuff on the fly. So this stuff about him seeing The Truth as not being worthy of proper release is just unfounded speculation and clutching at straws to prove a point. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm a sucker for a major chord | |
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Romance1600 said: The Truth was gonna follow Emancipation on EMI as I understand it, but the label folded.
My point is not about Prince thinking The Truth was not worthy of release.
We all know Prince changes his mind on a whim, and you can't judge what he does in 1997 with what he does in 2003, in terms of business/release strategy, because he just does stuff on the fly. So this stuff about him seeing The Truth as not being worthy of proper release is just unfounded speculation and clutching at straws to prove a point. He just didn't think that type of record was going to do much for his reputation because his values back then were about proving himself as an independent artist in terms of sales figures, primarily. He wanted to play with the big boys. My point is that Prince decided not to support a record from an artistic point of view because of lower expected sales revenues. I believe he lost an essential aspect of that spirit of art following the poor critical and commercial reception afforded by Emancipation. . [This message was edited Mon Sep 15 2:36:49 PDT 2003 by Anji] | |
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Romance1600 said: Fantastic, spot on post Jestyr.
Why, thank you. Has this thread been revived for some reason? | |
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