Tom said:

good question, tom...

Tom said:

I don't profess love for everything he records. However, it should be possible to engage in discussion about why there is dislike for something besides spurting juvenile generalizations like "it sucks", "it's elevator music", "he hasn't put out anything good since '86" etc. If the author of thread posed a well thought question, why doesn't he deserve a "well thought" answer. If you don't like the material, that's fine. But how he perceives the music is no less credible than the next person who might not enjoy it. The "elitist" in a person doesn't stem from his knowledge of Prince or his music, it stems from his/her ability to hold an intelligent conversation. Don't get it twisted.

teller said:

I hear as much intricate pre-planning and sketching out of a story as I do improvisation. To me this album comes across much like a film that’s directed by someone who allows for creative input from his or her actors. Prince created a working script that would allow him to tell his story, but the script left plenty of room for the individual players (actors) to improvise their parts within the constraints of the preplanned plot. And then perhaps later in post production special effects were added and editing took place to bring the storytelling to its full potential.

I don’t think he gave himself a “directed by” credit for the first time without reason. Nor did he only include his name on the front cover without reason. It’s likely his vision from the start, but it’s a vision that allowed for the creative input and inspiration of other talent. That in itself is a “new direction in music” for Prince.

Or to put another way, people who wanted pure improvisation are disappointed and angered that it’s not that, while those who think the “I” word is dirty, meandering and boring, are disappointed that it seems too improvisational. But like most everything Prince does, it’s not pure anything.

How I think this might have been created is just a theory and I could be way off base. Fortunately Prince has left his art and even its method of creation open for interpretation. But reading between the lines of the John Blackwell and Rhonda Smith interview we can discern that this was neither pure improvisation (that’s fairly obvious anyway) or a fully composed piece, complete with sheet music at the ready as the players entered the studio.

RHONDA: Yes, N.E.W.S was improvised

But pressed further on this issue:

RHONDA: Prince did give some guidelines [for each player], absolutely. He wasn't standing there with a conductor's stick, but he definitely had input.

RHONDA: [in speaking of “N.E.W.S”] You are right, it's more collaborative than it has been in the past. Prince has been open to more and we welcome that. He still always points the direction of where we are going and we appreciate that to go to some different places.

--
[This message was edited Sun Aug 24 15:10:07 PDT 2003 by Brendan]

Tom said:

Your first statement would probably only apply to a select band of fans who are still in an 'idolising Prince' stage. Really enjoying N.E.W.S. is not necessarily making excuses for Prince's music. Some people just like it, some people just don't like it. I think we're beginning to uncover why.

As for your last statement, I guess it comes down to the fact that if you are able to recognise, respect and enjoy Prince's growth as an artist, you'll always be in a minority. We're all in some form of perceived elite group, whether we choose to be there or not; just saying you like Prince excludes one from the vast majority of society. So, the question remains, how do you rate the views of the majority? Are 99% of the people right, and 1% wrong? Or is it just that we're different? I think the difference is growth. We're all at different levels here.

papabeat said:

I don’t think it’s the least bit out of line to conclude that an artist was successful when you encounter one of their creations and you’re being deeply moved and inspired by it. That’s success all by itself. And I would argue something that is ultimately much more meaningful for most artists than whether or not personal goals were met.

Of course we can’t know if Prince’s personal musical goals were met with this project. That something will probably never know for sure. And I’ve read about many artists that didn’t fully understand what they’ve created until years later or until they read feedback of their own work.

You make a good argument about the material he selects to perform being that which he feels is the most personally successful. But there is plenty of material I’d rate as great (and therefore quite successful to me) that he rarely if ever plays live. Am I to conclude that Prince doesn’t look kindly upon some of this material and that I shouldn’t like it as much because of this? No way. I could care less. The art is successful because it was created and I’m enjoying it. And I seriously doubt that the oft-played “Little Red Corvette” is one of his personal favorites, especially considering he’s expressed his indifference to this song long ago. But sometimes you have to include material in your concerts just for the fans you know are there only to hear the hits. And some stuff he might be incredibly proud of but he also feels that it just doesn’t work that great live.

And with something like “N.E.W.S” it would likely mean a special concert tour of jazz clubs or a special opening set, because it’s not likely to go over well with those expecting to hear “Little Corvette” and other hits that must be played thanks to the trappings of fame. Although it’s possible that for many years to come that he could fuse in small sections of “N.E.W.S” with his pop crowd like he has done with some of the Madhouse material. Or he could end up doing like he did with “Xeonophobia”, mix in a 10+ minute fusion piece into the more "traditional" Prince material.

But none of this will prove anything with regards to how successful Prince personally felt he was with this music. It's like me concluding that Prince must feel "N.E.W.S" is very successful to him personally because he only decided to release it to retail after sitting on it for several months. And after all, it's the first such project he's ever done so with his name on it. It doesn't prove anything.

And moving onto your other statement about there being an “Indifference to ‘N.E.W.S”. What I’ve been witnessing the last two months could never be described as “indifference”, it’s polarization. Indifference has never been an emotion that could inspire heated debates. Quite the opposite. I’ll take my chances with art that tends to polarize audiences into extreme groups of love and hate. At least people are being passionately inspired into action.

I mean just look at some of the posts here and elsewhere and all the hate and anger being stirred up. It’s like you need a disclaimer to lead your posts that says, “You can be a very intelligent person who knows an incredible amount about music and still not like ‘N.E.W.S’. Now read on for my opinion.” I know from practice that that still wouldn’t be enough to assuage some of the egos around here.

And if you're only talking about professional critics “indifference”, I've seen 4 reviews, 2 of which have been extremely praiseworthy, and 2 of which have been extremely harsh. The fact that there hasn't been more reviews is a whole other issue. I seriously doubt there is a great demand from any mainstream periodical to justify assigning a critic the task of reviewing an hour-long instrumental album, especially from an artist whose not known for such material. I think every review I've seen has been in very independent, underground locations. Almost the only place left where you can find any interesting writing taking place.

I would surmise that there wasn’t enough people who passionately loved or hated “Rave”, “One Nite Alone” the piano album or “Xpectation” to inspire and hold great heated debates for months or years over the passing of hundreds of threads.

But “TRC” still has that kind of action taking place and “N.E.W.S” is off to a good start in terms of its potential to have people at each other’s throats two months into its run.

Of course none of this proves anything. There’ll never be objective proof on the quality of a given work of art. But there are signposts along the way that can guide us, if you’re so inclined to (as someone else said so eloquently) move outside this “IMO” thinking being the sacred cow we must all kowtow to.

And the best sign post of all is of course time itself. If people are still listening to something months, years or decades later, that’s great evidence that something is speaking to people in a very special and lasting way.

Two months in, I’m one of those people.

--
[This message was edited Sun Aug 24 18:04:54 PDT 2003 by Brendan]

Brendan said:

That's an interesting way at looking at it, Brendan. I think there are at least a couple of factors in my judging whether a Prince record is a success. Firstly, what was Prince's purpose in creating N.E.W.S., and do I think he achieved it? Secondly, and more important to me, did his creation move me? In this case, N.E.W.S. moved me like no other Prince recording has ever managed to on first listenings. I have a feeling this will continue to be one of my favourite recordings, along with The Rainbow Children.

I do dispute that Prince falls into your 'most artists' category. I really don't think Prince, being the kind of person I expect him to be, would view my love for N.E.W.S. as more important than whether he personally felt it captures what he set out to do. Luckily for me, this is a creation that Prince is clearly happy with. I have to say, it does make my experience more enjoyable to sense that Prince is truly feeling his new creation, and so he should be.

Ok...so, N.E.W.S. reminds me of the music that plays when an operator puts you on hold and/or the music that plays inside of therapists office while your waiting for me them.

But int he end: s'ight. I can say, I wont play the CD (dont even have it yet) like I can play his others, but I'll get it eventually. Les C, NORTH (which people REALLY think is boring) is cool, I think it has a smooth sessy sound to it, a real mellow zone and I like SOUTH, I cant remember why, but I remember that I do. East and West are a little fuzzy in my mind.

Never sed I dint unnerstand it tho... Cause, its when you over analyse that you cant compromise.
LoL

Anji said:

I think you’re right, Anji. Upon further reflection, that last sentence in that paragraph came out poorly and I don’t think there is any defending it. Sometimes the keys get ahead of my brain, especially when I get on a long roll like this.

I’m not saying in anyway that Prince sets out to please his audience. Quite the opposite is true. True art comes from a very personal place. It seems quite obvious to me that he has been following his own muse for at least the last 2 years, and that to me is perhaps the main reason why his music has improved so much over the previous few years.

Obviously Prince is proud of his creation in the short-term, else he would have never even released it. But how he feels about it now or in the long-term has absolutely no bearing on my opinion of the work.

To consider how he feels is just one more thing getting in my way of trying to be as objective as humanly possible (of which I fail to reach each and every time).

Prince has hardly said two peeps about "The Truth" over the years, but it's my favorite album of the 90s. And until just recently he ignored it almost completely in the live setting. Should I be waiting around for his final word on his view of how successfully he personally felt he was with that album before I make that final commitment to how I feel about this album? No way, no how. Artist’s opinions of their own work can be just as flawed as anyone else's.

Thanks for pointing that weak link out. I *love* the opportunity to be challenged to explain myself in a better way.

Brendan
[This message was edited Sun Aug 24 20:17:12 PDT 2003 by Brendan]

Brendan said:

Interesting. Is it obvious Prince is proud of his creation just because he released it? I don't think that this is as clear cut as you might suggest.

You mention "The Truth" as an example of an album which Prince barely made any recognition towards until recently. To be quite honest with you, I don't think he was confident about what it stood for back then. This is very much related to where Prince's values were at the time of its release. As you know, Brendan, that era was about trying to prove his industry savvy, attempting to release hit records, living on his legendary status and getting paid. It was a knee-jerk reaction to his much sought after freedom, and the energy that went into achieving it was quickly dissipated into trying to prove why. But his values were based on weak foundations.

Of course, he failed for a number of reasons but I think the most pertinent one of all is that he lost touch with what was once unique about himself. Insead of truly following his own vibe, he appeared lost trying to follow something else, the game. One major difference between Prince and the likes of Michael Jackson and especially Madonna, is that Prince's success has rarely been about commercial insight. In retrospect, it is quite laughable (and sad) that Prince even thought he could run with the likes of R. Kelly or Dr. Dre, two producers clearly in touch with making music relevant to industry.

The point I'm trying to make, is that Prince's values today are very different to what they were when "The Truth" was sheepishly released as part of the Crystal Ball package. Prince wasn't so much proud of his creations back then, not like he has been since The Rainbow Children; he was insecure about them and that's a very different trait. So, what am I trying to say? Essentially, Prince's lack of acknowledgement about "The Truth" makes sense. He didn't know its worth because he had lost touch with himself. In fact, that is what makes the album resonate so well. It's honesty is striking. However, the idea of waiting on his word to recognise credibility back then, would be like the blind following the blind. Things are very different now.

Prince is in tune with himself, his artistic spirit and most importantly, the value of that to his creativity and success. This is in many ways thanks to Mani, Larry Graham and dare I say it, his belief in God. As such, if Prince is proud of any of his creations nowadays, I think it's a good sign that you're probably listening to something special in a true artistic sense. Who can really be surprised that Prince feels N.E.W.S represents new directions in music? I think the point is, he's proud of the release of N.E.W.S. because it makes him feel like he is growing as an artist, and actually what he is bringing to the table is a new belief in himself, his music. It's a feeling.

.
[This message was edited Mon Aug 25 13:34:57 PDT 2003 by Anji]

Anji said:

Please stop simplifying things into such black and whites. First, you don't know if he was confident or not with regards to The Truth, anymore than you know about his confidence in N.E.W.S.. For all we know, he loves The Truth and feels weird about having his name on N.E.W.S., we don't know. And just because he was trying to prove something to the industry, that doesn't mean he lost any artistry in the process. Gold demonstrates that when he wants to hit with something, he can. Just because The Truth was recorded during a period you deem to be a lost period for him doesn't diminish the works - he was lost when he recorded the Black Album too.


Oh, come on. He failed? Failed at what? And again - I know I'm harping on this, but you haven't explained it - how do you know he failed? IMO (placed there because apparently it's bad to fall back on one's opinion), The Truth was a success in his attempt to create a basically 'acoustic' record. It resonated with me, and with those friends of mine who heard it. What Prince thinks of it, I don't know - but I have heard him play several of the cuts live at the Park, so Brendan, rest easy, he didn't drop it immediately after release. Now, with regards to R. Kelly and Dr. Dre, where did that come from? Prince was releasing 1) archive material; 2) instrumental music for a ballet for his new wife; and 3) an acoustic album of somewhat personal and introspective tunes. Prince wasn't even TRYING to to make music relevant to the industry, and to make the comparison is completely apples to oranges.


Beating the dead horse, you don't know how or if Prince's values have changed. Why is placing the Truth as a bonus disk in his much promoted Crystal Ball package any more sheepish than releasing N.E.W.S. first as a fan club release, and then with a small quiet release, also without a major distributor? If anything, N.E.W.S. is a more sheepish release than even Live at the Aladdin, where Prince obtained major distribution. And what about ONA, High and Xpectation? Based on your rationale, he's more lost and sheepish now than he was back then.


He also called his NPG/Larry/Chaka trilogy the 'Return to the Old School,' which really wasn't - it was just old faces in new masks (loved GPS2000 and Come 2 My House, BTW). Quit believing everything he says - New Directions is a slogan, an ad campaign, a reference point to make us think he's divining Miles. I'm glad you get the new cd, really. But you wanted to know why people don't, and you take this tack of 'spiritual growth, and needing to be ready for the journey,' which is complete bullocks. Maybe we don't get it because there's nothing to get. Maybe it's just four tracks of semi-composed, semi-improvised music that you love, but I think is completely inconsequential to the miraculous and distinguished career of this man we both follow and love. It's his Dylan's "Self Portrait," his Springsteen's "Human Touch,", his Miles' "Big Fun," his Costello's "Mighty Like the Rose," something that is part of the mighty one's canon, but will always be overlooked by something else when it comes time to listen to them.

.
[This message was edited Mon Aug 25 13:34:57 PDT 2003 by Anji]
[/quote]

Anji said:

Yes, perhaps I overstated that just a tad.

All I was trying to convey there is that usually artists are very enthusiastic about their work during creation or upon completion of it and therefore I can’t use this as some type of barometer for how personally successful they felt it was or how successful I should judge it to be.

It would be extremely difficult to know if that excitement and enthusiasm is justified in regards to the real quality inherent in something. I read about some artist many years ago who said they’d listen to their stuff over and over again after creation, then they’d put it away to only return to it weeks or months later with fresh ears and the stuff that moved them the most immediately is the stuff they would trust was the material right for release.

Sounds like one of many legitimate methods one could use to try and separate the intensely personal view of success with that which might have real merit outside of self.

But what I hear you saying is that because he seems to be back on track with his original spirit/vibe/focus that his enthusiasm for a given creation carries much more resonance.

That’s a damn good point.

It’s just a hard to use this as an argument about quality, especially when you’re speaking to a public that might feel Prince was only in tune with himself during the Revolution years. It tends to bring on the defensive in people, because perhaps they so strongly believe Prince’s spirit is completely in the wrong place.

That’s why I try to shy away from this. But I must say you’ve argued the point here in a fantastic way.

Immediately upon reading your piece I was going to add to your argument speculation about “The Truth” being perhaps too personal for him to be able to revisit live until recently. But upon deeper reflection of your post, that’s exactly what I think you’re getting at. Lack of confidence in his true spirit.

Stop writing such great thought provoking stuff, Anji! It means I’m spending a lot more time here than I’ve allotted for myself.

papabeat said:

[/quote]

Where’s that “indifference” you promised me.

Papabeat, this of course is all speculation. None of us can know for sure but Prince. And you could argue that since we as humans even lie to ourselves that it would be tough for even him to be completely honest about the situation. So please stop asking for objective proof.

This is a debate, a discussion and an exchange of thoughts.

- You go on attack mode regarding unsubstantiated speculation and then say something like, “Gold demonstrates that when he wants to hit with something, he can.”

Using your style of debate, “How the hell do you know what Prince was trying to demonstrate with Gold?”

- He has barely visited “The Truth” live, even still. I didn’t say he dropped it altogether upon completion.

- “Emancipation”, “NPS” and “Rave” is I suspect where that “Dre-Kelly” notion came from. Can someone not hypothesize around you without getting their head taken off?

- It’s not bad to fallback on your opinion. It’s bad to never step outside one self with humility and realize others might have input that is just as valuable or more than your own.

- If that’s all you get out of “new directions in music”, I’d say you’re starting to sound more and more like someone who has so vilified Prince that you can no longer see anything but ill intent in his actions and/or words. Surely you can imagine that there’s more to it than just that. Yes, both good and bad things, and a mix of both.

And surely we should be able to have a friendly exchange of thoughts of what this might mean without you jumping in the fray with, “Stop believing everything he says.” That’s just a different way of saying, “Prince’s music now sucks monkey balls and you’re fam if you don’t think so.” I know you’re smart enough to realize that the people you are responding to aren’t the type that believe everything Prince says.

You sound like a knowledgeable, intelligent person. But you choose to attack with that knowledge rather than enlighten with it. That’s unfortunate. Your insights could be very useful in helping us all try to decipher why the sky turned out blue.

NEWS bores me because there's nothing distinct or important about it compared to most other Jazz that's currently out there.

I had a better time listening to Miles Smiles, The Jazz Passengers "Individually Twisted" album, and Cassandra Wilson's "New Moon Daughter"...

If Prince wants to do some mellow derivative jazz albums, lovely. But I dont understand why some people are putting this album on a pedestal as some revolutionary piece of music.

papabeat said:

Based on how Prince appeared to judge how successful his records were post Warner Brothers / pre The Rainbow Children, I think it's safe to assume that he was not confident about a 'proper release' of "The Truth" album. Quite simply, he was motivated by sales back then (in an attempt to prove his viablity within the music industry, or make money off his fans, or both). As such, he did not realise the merit in releasing an album like "The Truth" in the same manner he now realises the merit in releasing an album like N.E.W.S.

It's clear to me that Prince has concerned himself with earning a quick buck, surrounding himself with legends (in what could possibly be described as an attempt to boost his own artistic ego) and trying to score hit records. The real problem was that he neglected his artistic muse in favour of commercial success, and when that completely failed, he was forced to re-think his values. Stubborn as he was, had he tried to come back with the High project, I suspect we would have seen a truly desperate man fighting for the attention of a hip crowd that places little value on artistic growth and experimentation. However, something happened along that path, and instead, we now have this quite brilliant 'artistic' album, The Rainbow Children, and these so-called new directions in music.

papabeat said:

I never said "The Truth" was a failure. In contrast, what I have been trying to explain, is that the failure was in Prince's reluctance to recognise the value in supporting that record. Including it as a bonus on an collection for die-hard fans, is not standing behind your art. And yes, I am making the assumption that his values were about sales back then (driven by his insecurity to prove his game) because the evidence is all pointing in that direction. And yes, the R. Kelly and Dr. Dre mention, was indeed a reference to the Emancipation era (as Brendan correctly pointed out).

Brendan said:

Yes, that's exactly the point I am trying to make, Brendan. Thankfully, you understood.

Listening to Prince's enthusiasm back then would have been foolish because his values were overly concerned with sales. It makes sense, therefore, that his stance on "The Truth" album was a cowardly one. There's a difference in values now, for whatever reason, it's about his artistic muse. And regardless of what anyone might lead themselves to believe, his stance on N.E.W.S. is anything but sheepish. He's confident about what it is, and the music stands bravely for those who wish to enjoy it.

This can only come from a renewed confidence in the value of his art and perhaps, to enjoy this album on a deeper level than just the music itself, it is necessary for one's own values to merit such artistic excursions. I guess not everyone enjoys this style of music, or thinks its a very good offering, or has the patience to wait for Prince to engage them in what they already know.

Tom said:

To be quite honest with you, Tom, I have never ever concerned myself with whether a piece of music was revolutionary. All I try and do, especially with Prince, is try and understand where he is coming from and most importantly, decide whether I like it.

It is very possible that my enjoyment of N.E.W.S. is related to my inexperience of the great jazz records out there. So, I can either do something about my ignorance if it pleases me, or enjoy the fact that I am thoroughly enjoying a new Prince album, or both.

Anji said:

Its also about freedom. At the time The Truth was released Prince was incapable of releasing The Truth as a single cd. The only way he could release it was in a multi-cd form. At the time of Crystal Balls release Prince was still tied up in contractual obligations with Warner Bros. Restraints placed on him due to the WB contract played a major part in how his music was released. Its anybodys guess in what form The Truth would have been released if he had been free of Warner Bros. like he is today. He bucked the system by releasing Crystal Ball & The Truth in the manner he did. I wouldn't call that cowardly.

Brendan said:

This is what I don't 'get' with you, Brendan.

Why are you trying to be as objective as humanly possible with a recording that you really enjoy? Perhaps, to understand whether you're somewhat blindly enjoying it, or whether you feel it should merit enjoyment? This will be an interesting one to see you explain LOL!

Shouldn't we should just enjoy what we love and not concern ourselves with any notion that that love needs to be connected with quality? I guess you could say that we love Prince and as such, should respect him truly following his own spirit. That's not to say that we will enjoy the musical results but if we do, so be it. There is no need to bring in quality into this discussion, or is there?

I can't help but feel you're getting clouded over by trying to justify quality to yourself, and I'm left wondering why.

I’ve been asked to contribute my thoughts to this thread and I while I wish I had more time to spend contemplating my contribution, I decided I would capture my initial thoughts as quickly as I can. I think that provides more interesting results sometimes.

I want to share something with you. I’m from a very musical family. My father is a bass player, guitarist and vocalist, been a musician all of his adult life, is now in his sixties and told me that one thing he’s learned after all these years of playing music for a living is that for the creative person that plays music and wishes to progress, there is nowhere else to go but into jazz. Simple as that. The reason he says is that once you learn to write and record simple funk, pop or rock songs and learn all the structures and different ways to present them, it becomes a box. Limiting. Especially if you do it well. There is no envelope to push. No new landscapes to discover. No way to expand on your vocabulary. Until you go to jazz. I never really understood jazz until he explained that you must listen to jazz as if it were a conversation between the instruments. Each instrument has its voice and a sentence or paragraph to say, sometimes, like us, they talk over each other, but the main thing to remember is that it is a conversation of the moment. Abstract. So it can still present surprises for the musicians during the performance. Pop music limits you to always returning to a phrase or chorus; repetitive; more like an oration where the idea has already been presented, now it is simply being reiterated over and over.

Many great musicians end up with some sort of jazz period. I will use the example of Joni Mitchell - one of Prince’s favorites. After some wonderful albums of very structured songs in mostly the folk music genre, she took a year off and returned with “Court and Spark” a collaboration with the LA Express, a jazz-based group of players. This was the beginning of her foray into the genre and pretty much culminated in her collaboration with Charles Mingus. As a result of these excursions, She was horribly ghetto-ized by both the jazz purists, who felt she wasn’t crating ‘real jazz’ and her existing fan base who felt she wasn’t ‘doing the music she was best at’. I am sure Prince is quite bemused to be in the same circumstance at this point in his musical journey. A creative musician creates for their own sense of understanding of themselves and their internal human struggle to be understood. Not for some fan base, nor the critics and not always for other musicians although there are exceptions to all of these. Mostly, it’s Prince’s journey and if we can tag along then - wow. Bonus for him. But we are not owed some musical equivalent of an investment return. We do not have the ability to dictate to this person what type of material he records, and we should be ashamed to desire such a thing. How can an artist create from their muse in such an environment? This is the very reason Prince fought so hard to be released from record label controls.

We the fans don’t even agree on what kind of music we enjoy in general, let alone what we prefer from Prince. Specifically in regards to N.E.W.S., the criticism is baffling. I was particularly struck by comments that this is not new music and has been done and heard before and apparently there is a great misconception about what the phrase “New Directions in Music” means to Prince. It’s simply a new direction for Prince. He is not saying this is brand new music never before beheld. There also seems to be this implicit misunderstanding between Prince and his fans that some day, because he is a genius with a capital G, he will create some sort of brand new music such as the world has never heard before and revolutionize the planet with it, thus vilifying our long suffering faith in his musical mastery. I keep seeing people type things like “…music that he is capable of” or “…album that I know he still has in him”. Let me tell you, nothing created is original. Ever. That is simply not possible. All is derivative; some ideas from Lou Reed here, some concepts about arranging from Miles Davis there. And it has always been that way with Prince’s material. I don’t understand how anyone could miss that. It seems as though most people want to categorize this record as his jazz piece, but it can’t simply be put into a single category can it? It’s Prince’s version of….whatever.

Obviously I have more to say, and I'm addressing earlier posts on this thread, as opposed to where it has evolved to, but I know how hard it is to digest these long posts so I’ll leave it there for now.

Discuss.

fascinating, jestyr...i must admit i'm new to jazz, and the whole "conversation" thing is an interesting light to shed on the whole process. and yet i take such deep pleasure in the more traditional forms--looking for raw beauty in harmonic structure, not necessarily creativity each time. i dunno...but i'm listening.

It's in the virtual absence of reviews from the press - if an artist is trying something completely different, that would be the newsworthy item, not if they are doing something the same. An all-instrumental Prince album should merit a mention. But it's not getting them. Hmmm


Maybe by reading the liner notes. It's well documented that Prince was swinging for the upper deck with that album.


Sure, but your phrase, "And until just recently he ignored it almost completely in the live setting." suggests otherwise. And I wasn't ragging on you, or being argumentative. I was merely clarifying something.




I erred with this one. The conversation had been about The Truth, and then veered off into Dre-Kelley territory, without me realizing we were talking about something else. Sorry.

That was a snide rejoinder to Anji's earlier "There’ll never be objective proof on the quality of a given work of art. But there are signposts along the way that can guide us, if you’re so inclined to (as someone else said so eloquently) move outside this “IMO” thinking being the sacred cow we must all kowtow to. " Sometimes people like what they like and don't appreciate being told that they're not growing if they don't like something else. Everybody gets an opinion, even the haters. And that doesn't mean lack of growth - maybe they've moved on from music to something else. But your point is well taken.


I don't see ill intent in Prince's words - I don't see anything in them - when you've been a fan since 1999, you know not to count on what he says until he delivers. As always, it's the music that matters. But as Anji kept talking about the 'new directions,' I needed to ask just what was new about them. And I still don't know.


Now you're just putting words in my mouth. I've not said that. In fact, I'm quite happy that everybody that loves N.E.W.S. does, and I wish I could share that warm feeling with them. Like my wife loves Duran Duran, but they leave me cold. It would be nice to share that with her. Again, the 'stop believing' quote is directed to those who are claiming that N.E.W.S. is a new direction, because I haven't heard the new in it.

I know you’re smart enough to realize that the people you are responding to aren’t the type that believe everything Prince says.

You sound like a knowledgeable, intelligent person. But you choose to attack with that knowledge rather than enlighten with it. That’s unfortunate. Your insights could be very useful in helping us all try to decipher why the sky turned out blue.[/quote]

Anji said:

Your position that he was surrounding himself with legends to boost his ego makes no sense. First, it wasn't precedent setting, as he'd done it before with Mavis Staples and George Clinton, legends arguably more legendary than either Larry or Chaka. Second, why would associating himself with has-beens boost his ego? Maybe he merely was fulfilling a childhood dream by working with his musical idols.

Regarding The Truth, Prince has always sought new avenues for getting his music out. In the case of Crystal Ball, offering an extensive set of archival material, PLUS a brand new album. It's like a greatest hits cd with 3 new songs. It doesn't necessarily mean that he wasn't confident in the merits of The Truth. Assuming you're right, does that mean that along with High, Prince regarded both One Night Alone and Xpectation as less worthy projects, given their fan-club only status? And if so, that means three of his last five albums have been deemed as having not enough merit for traditional release, hardly the artistic rebirth you're claiming. (For the record, I don't believe the 3 of 5 claim - I'm merely posing the argument. I think TRC is brilliant, High sucks, ONA is as worthy as The Truth, Xpectation is brilliant, and N.E.W.S. a nonfactor, a pretty good track record over the last 3 years.)

papabeat said:

I think Prince acutely recognised his struggle between money and art especially during the Rave era. I think that's because he realised he hadn't managed to do anything successfully post Warner Brothers. He neither managed a great selling album during that era, nor did he manage fully supporting any truly artistic endeavours. That is, until The Rainbow Children.

One might argue that by surrounding himself with the likes of Larry and Chaka, he could have sub-consciously been making himself feel better about his inability to achieve what it is he clearly set out to do since The Gold Experience. I definitely think he found comfort in surrounding himself with his idols during a time when commercial success alluded him.

The artistic rebirth I'm suggesting started with The Rainbow Children and has continued since. Although I rate the other projects in being part of this era, I would only consider The Rainbow Children and N.E.W.S. as being worthy of retail release. That's not contradictory to what I have been saying.

Anji said:

I hate great selling albums... I like Prince's flops...They cool... Probably the best ones...

Hey when Prince gonna release the white album. We had the black album... ain't it time... lol...

Anji said:

Even If I didn’t like “N.E.W.S” or “TRC” at all, I honestly would be standing up and applauding his bravery and just hoping that eventually he’d put out something that I could relate with better. Back in the mid-to-late 90s I was certainly critical of him being very predictable and safe (except for “The Truth”), so I’d be an absolute hypocrite to not give him credit now for being so much more bold.

Any artist, even artist’s I have no interest in, get my respect when they are brave enough to follow their own muse; everyone else be damned. Especially when that muse is something that is so different from what you are known for that you are just guaranteed a public thrashing.

It’s like taking all these “here’s what Prince should do” posts (which of course always correspond directly with the writers taste in music, or at least Prince music) and saying, “Fuck You!” This is my journey and you can come along if you so desire. But it’s mine. If you want a funk record, good, go out and write one. This is me, like me or hate me. But this is me now, the one who has the courage to try something different. Someday me and you might connect again, my friend, but I’ve got to be true to myself or die as an artist.

Creating from a very personal place of course doesn’t guarantee quality of work, but I’d certainly take my chances with this type of artistry over Prince trying to prove that he can top the charts, sell a triple album, be #1 at the bank without Warner Bros., and on and on.

There’s just no way he could have created what he has been the last couple of years during the mid-to-late 90s. It’s just a million miles from where he was at. And it’s not about whether you liked the music then or not or whether you like the music now, it’s about stating the one thing that is obvious. The difference is great, even if you hate it all, it’s night and day different these two periods.

I hope I’m right about him being strong enough to keep moving ahead regardless of criticism. I make that assumption due to the heat he took for “TRC” that he thus far seems unfazed by. There is always the possibility that the criticism gets to him so much that he goes back to a safe place and suddenly he’s trying to be accepted by the masses and by his fans, worrying about how he can connect again. Screw that. Connect with yourself. Be true to yourself and you’ll always find a few people who dig what you’re doing. And even if the audience leaves completely, at least you won’t have any regrets about wasting anymore time trying to please others.

He has my respect for changing, even if he never writes another piece of music that moves me.

“To live a creative life, we must lose our fear of being wrong.” – Joesph Chilton Pearce

Anji said:

That’s just my nature, Anji!

I try to workout the logical side of my brain (used for critiquing and analysis) as much as the creative side (the side that just sits back and is moved beyond words as I try to shove the lump in my throat back down so I that won’t progress much beyond that one tear that got away from me.)

I don’t think you can grow near as fast by only listening to your inner voice/spirit that either connects or doesn’t with a piece of art. My tastes have broadened immensely by trying to “be as objective as humanly possible.” It doesn’t take a lot of energy to spit out the peas. It takes a lot to figure out why you like or don’t like them, and if there is ever a chance of changing that opinion one way or the other.

How many records have I bought, films that I’ve watched or books that I’ve read had me thinking at one point, “What the fuck is this?” Every fiber of my being wanting to reject what I was experiencing. But I try not to reject it until I’ve taken it apart and tried to figure out how it ticks, and most importantly, what about it is angering me so much. Then and only then do I feel even the least bit qualified to speak to the issue of quality. And still I’m left humbled by all of my ridiculous bumbles and stumbles.

Judging other people’s creations is something that can be quite an arrogant undertaking if you think about it, and so I try to respect it at every turn. I always try to look at it as though I’m wrong first, and then work from there. It bothers me how a professional critic can take what might have been 5 years of sweat and blood from say a film director and reduce it to 3 paragraphs of cliched shit. They might be right that it was awful, but show the artist the respect that you at least took the time to understand it. And it might be a good idea to try and write something that isn’t equally as bad so that you won’t end up with irony all over your face.

And your lack of hearing many jazz classics has got nothing to do with your enjoyment of “N.E.W.S”. Music is the powerful art form that it is because you don’t have to know a fucking thing about the technicalities behind its creation to be moved by it.

Brendan

Jestyr said:

You can’t see me, Jestyr. But I’m giving you a standing ovation right now.

In particular your second to last paragraph is just brilliantly stated. There are so many of these people I call “innovation chasers” out there waiting for Prince to re-invent music again for them, when he never did it in the first place. Nor does any one person. It’s through the collective works of thousands if not millions of hard working people that you get real evolution in any particular field. Sure the greatest amongst us, Duke Ellington and Miles Davis, for example, have had a lot more input into how it evolves than say Hammer (LOL), but they’re input is still miniscule and is often far exaggerated by fan-boy types and some overzealous music historians.

Even the most original art contains an indeterminable amount of past influence and experience.

I’ve always challenged people to name a piece of art that they think is staggeringly innovative and that “changed the face of music” or some other such nonsense and then place this pronouncement in a well-read discussion forum that contains many thousands of experts in that related field. Then sit back and watch how they pick apart where all the various components also show up in part or whole and the amazing amount of record suggestions you’ll get to show you just how original it really isn’t.

Hell, even do it with something much more concrete like the invention of the light bulb and learn about how many dozens or hundreds of other people were doing the same thing.

I think it was Pablo Picasso who was touring ancient caves that contained paintings that were several thousand years old. At one point early along in his tour he paused and said, “My god, we’ve created nothing.”

Brendan

--
[This message was edited Mon Aug 25 23:59:16 PDT 2003 by Brendan]

Brendan said:

Okay, I would usually agree with such a sentiment but I guess it's really not as straightforward as this. Here's a thought, and some might argue completely contradictory to what I have been saying thus far, but it's actually not. Prince wasn't really that different from how he is now but he made certain value judgements back then which make it appear otherwise. Let me try explaining myself but bear in mind this is an issue of Prince's choices, not his ability.

How was Prince able to turn out an album like "The Truth" during the post Warner years? It's quite simple. He always could but he simply chose not to because that's not where he saw the value in his work at that time. Prince wanted success, and he decided there was a formula to enjoying it. That formula was not centred around his honest artistic musings but rather what he believed were the critical elements that sold records. The balance was more in favour of R. Kelly style production, and understandably so. That is what sold records, afterall. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Prince went on record saying that he didn't 'need' a live sound during that era because that wasn't the sound he wanted to create. Interestingly, I actually think Kirk should be considered a successful collaborator with Prince. Many people may not rate his contribution too highly but the fact of the matter is, he gave Prince the type of production style that Prince wanted. Prince thought it would sell, and he may very well have been proven right had it not been for the fact that Prince really didn't know how to successfully market himself, or his product.

So. what can we draw from this? I think the conclusion is that Prince tried to play the market after Warners but consistently failed. He didn't fail, however, because he had lost his artistic spirit or ability; that was always there in some form or another but he chose to water both of them down for his big releases. He failed because the choices he made were simply not in tune with the marketplace. Quite frankly, he didn't have the commercial sense to know how to sell to the market.

Some interesting comments there, but I don't think Prince is all that smart.