Prince, being Jehovah's Witness, does not believe in a political system (which would involve the law). Does this mean downloading is a moral decision in his eyes? And doesn't he believe that his artistry is a God given gift? If he does believe its a gift then why would he care if someone pays for his music or swaps it? Isn't charging someone for access to a God given gift wrong? I understand that he needs to make a living and if everyone swapped he would be broke and unable to make the music at all...and i should say, i'm all for peeps paying for music...but this was just something that popped into my head. I would think a great way of thanking God for your gift would be to share it with as many people as possible...filesharing provides that outlet.

Interesting train of thought.

I think at the end of the day, Prince sees his music as his art, and wants whatever he can get to sustain creating that art

Let's not forget his love of being #1 at the bank.

From the little I have read of the bible, my understanding is that Jesus never voted, but he recognised the political system (or system of government) that existed - and he encouraged people to obey the laws set by the Romans (despite the fact that he had no say in voting in those people who ruled at the time).

At least one of his parables encourages people to make the best use of their God-given talents and skills, and he also suggested people do not hide their light under a bushel.

I don't recall Jesus ever criticising or condemning people for using their talents as a means of paid employment per se. However, my understanding is that people were encouraged to use their income wisely.

My assumption would be that Jesus charged for his carpentry work but healed the sick for free.

Although I am not a Jehovah's Witness, I don't believe any of this is out of line with their beliefs. Nor do I recall the passage in 'the sermon on the mount', starting: 'Blessed are the filesharers ...


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[This message was edited Wed Jul 23 7:51:33 PDT 2003 by langebleu]

Prince is one of the biggest musical thiefs on the planet!

Who's to say he doesn't music swap. God my ass!

langebleu said:

i'm not saying prince should work for free. i think he should be paid for his work. i just think he goes to a lot of trouble to keep peeps from swapping and downloading. rather than suing fan clubs and websites (for simply reminding people that he's out there) maybe he should spen dsome of that money on advertising and a marketing team. but who am i to say what he should do with his money, i'm only a fan...oops, fam, i mean.

and just for the record, i own all of p's official recordings via buying them at record stores. i own tons of bootlegs from filesharing. downloading bootlegs is not harmful to any artist as they are not competing for sales from other officially released works.

Putting all the religious nonsense [sorry, I didn't mean to be redundant] aside:

There is a fatal flaw in a common rationalization relied upon by many who purchase and sell bootlegs -- the rationalization that "I'm not doing any harm to the artist because I buy all of his official releases."

Even if you buy all of the official releases over the counter, the bootlegging of the remainder of the artist's property (and someone's property is what we're talking about) diminishes and, in some cases, destroys the artist's opportunity to profit from having created that remainder.

The back-up rationale: "Oh, but, bootlegs help to generate demand for official releases, so I'm doing the artist a favor."

Oh, really now? I'm just glad no one is holding their breath waiting for publication of proof that bootlegging is the best way to accomplish that goal. And, anyway, who appointed you Chief Marketing Officer to decide which economic and artistic trade-offs were in the artist's best interest?

If the artist says he doesn't care and is willing to accept the economic consequences associated with the bootlegging of his material, that's his decision. (Mind you, it's a suicidal decision if the artist is trying to operate independently.) If the artist has an interest in protecting himself from the adverse consequences of bootlegging, why can't his right to preserve control over his artistic presentations be respected? His property, his decision, no?
There are a million reasons to be annoyed by the record labels and record stores and to hope that the economic balance of power shifts more toward artists. But the fact that we don't like the labels or stores doesn't justify taking in a way that also hurts the artists.

And as much as we may find fault with the business judgment of the artists over whom we obsess, stealing is stealing. The fact that -- geniuses that we are -- we could naturally make perfect economic decisions in a business as speculative as the recording industry is beside the point.

We have as much right to commercially trade in bootlegs as we have to take diamonds cut by Cartier from their vault, simply because we think they're not doing enough to aggressively or intelligently market their inventory to meet the demands of the diamond-buying public.

My heavens. You'd think that the continuing adverse consequencss to the world of having had the 2000 US Presidential election stolen would scare even the pro-bootlegging crowd straight!

i guess you don't any bootlegs from any artists. if you did you'd realize there is a vast difference in quality between an official release and an unofficial release. if prince (or any artist) were to suddenly begin releasing all the material that has been bootlegged over the years, the owners of those bootlegs would be turning over more dollars to get it. how many people on this site are dying for prince to "release it"? you think they don't already own that stuff? yes, bootlegging is stealing. yes, it is wrong in the eyes of business. but wasn't it prince who said "money and art don't mix"? i;m not justifying anything. just playing devil's advocate. like i said, i've never paid for a bootleg...but i have downloaded the hell out of them!

by the way, are you involved in IP? you sound very well informed.

You are wrong.

Music is art. Only in recent history has this art been turned into commodity.

Talk about your golden parachutes...

OneMoJam said:

Romance1600 said:

Right!

How many of you want to be paid for work that you do ?

Do you consider bricklayers & carpenters artists?
They are artists and they get paid for their work.


I own several bootlegs and I also realize this is not proper and is WRONG.

I have every album that Prince has released.
I have every single released by Prince since 1982.
I have only 6 bootleg recordings and may not buy anymore,but who's to say.
I only collect only essential concerts .

Filesharing is destroying the industry .
Bootlegging is hurting Prince more than any other artist in music history with the exception of the Beatles.


How many of you want to get paid for the work that you do ?

imnotsayinthisjust2bnasty said:

I do own a handful of Prince bootlegs I bought back in 95 in a shop in Tokyo. I was overwhelmed by curiosity and the mystique of the illicit CDs and gave in to temptation. I have regrets, since the purchases run against my general desire to respect the property rights of artists.

I'm sure that the intent of Prince's statement was to reflect his experience that money and art don't always mix well. From Day One, he's been involved in a commercial business enterprise, the exchange of copies of his recordings for my hard-earned money. Prince's sometimes-over-the-top rhetoric aside: "This is a bidness and Prince ain't too far gone to see that." [Apologies to Billy Sparks.]

Prince's experience has taught him that the division of profit traditionally has been stacked in favor of whoever has the stronger property interest in the art and those who control distribution. In hindsight, he realized that he had ceded more property interest to his friends at WB than he should have. After all the dust settled, he finds himself free of that arrangement, for better and for worse.

Somewhat imperfectly, The Littel Fella is trying assert greater control over ownership and distribution, so that -- at the end of the day -- he receives more net profit per unit distributed, than if he stayed under the old system.
If you think you can end up with the same net profit from 100,000 units today than you did from 500,000 units yesterday, by cutting out a lot of parasitic middlemen, you try it.

Prince has gone this route at a time when technology greatly increases the risks of copyright infringement and lost profitability. And he doesn't have the marketing or distribution leverage of a monster corporation anymore which, from a consumer access standpoint, can lead to frustration. What he runs is another small label that tries to crank out product and distribute it in a cost-effective manner, at a time when the former principal means of cost effective marketing --radio airplay -- has been perverted by legalized payola, consolidation of ownership, and integration with concert promotion. As attractive an alternative medium as the internet is for direct marketing of music to listeners, it also creates opportunity for illicit dilution of the artist's commercial property rights.

Both of us are guilty of contributing to the problem. I say we turn ourselves in at front gate of Paisley Park and throw ourselves at the mercy of Manuela. Her heels probably aren't as spiked. Or should we head to Toronto?

I practice an area of law that makes IP look downright sexy. What I think I know about IP, as it applies to The Little Fella, I've picked up in the arts, music and business press.

Damn good explaination OneMo.

If you could explain to the boys & girls about legalized payola and how WB & others used their muscle to keep Prince from "making it" solo.

muleFunk said:

prince has made it solo. you can't be a megastar and be an indie star at the same time. name one "solo" artist who has been as successful as Prince in an indie world.

has ani difranco bought two huge new properties on two different continents?

prince has made the decision to be an indie artist, but only after he reaped the benefits of being a superstar. i will continue to purchase his official releases and support his indie status, but i will also continue to search out those rarities that WE ALL have learned to love. all of the hypocrisy surrounding bootlegs needs to cease. Prince is THE MOST BOOTLEGGED artist ever...that means most of y'all have something "unreleased" in your collections.

Prince has not had a commercially successful release in years. yet, he is still in the tabloids on occasion and is still a successful musician. his ONA tour was in the top 20 of that year and his catalogue is still bringing him in rent money. there is no threat to his success through bootlegs. furthermore, there is HEAVY speculation that most of the bootlegs from the 90's were leaked by prince, himself, as a way to f warner bros. that could be rumour, it may not be. who knows?

it's kind of funny...i agree that people should pay for their music. i agree that when prince releases NEWS, it should be purchased and NOT downloaded. i agree that when this new dvd comes out it should be purchased and not copied. i think any artist should be paid for their efforts. i also think that if i pay $125 for a freakin' concert ticket i have every right to later purchase a bootleg of that show. greed is everywhere. not just with the bootleggers and buyers.

You make valid points and I would add that if I were Prince I would start have 5000-1000 copies of concerts recorded and sold at the next concert.Also the the unreleased albums do not have WB owning the masters so there would be no problem with the release .One problem with your theory is why pay $125 for a concert when you can buy the boot later ?

The problem is in production,distribution,& marketing.These venues are all still under the control (one way or another) of the major labels.For more info see the documentary Welcome to Death Row.The info I learned in that thing really opened my eyes.Hell,as "inde" as Death Row was they still had to go through a distributor .The distributor Interscope was sold to Time Warner for $400,000,000,while Tupac was dead & the founders of Death Row were in prison

What I was wanting OneMoJam to respond to was the instances of obvious sabotage at WB during his last years there and the strange coup that took place at Arista that derailed a critical success in Rave right when the album was taking off.
[This message was edited Thu Jul 24 5:46:33 PDT 2003 by muleFunk]

Oh come on now. Rave was not exactly a critical success, and it SURE never showed signs of taking off commercially.

I'm shocked at how much Arista paid him for that plastic piece of youknowwhat.

muleFunk said:

anyone interested in seeing a performer live is not going to let a bootleg recording be the reason for them not going to the show. the experience of being there, live, is not captured on a bootleg and i don't believe it has any impact whatsoever. as for sabotage...well, it seems to me that prince sabotaged himself. especially with arista. clive made prince a priority at that label and it wasn't good enough for prince. he wanted to be THE priority. prince killed his own record with the "rave" fiasco. he refused to release anymore singles off of it. he refused to make anymore videos. he threw another one of his temper tantrums. i understand what you mean when you speak of payola and muscle tactics, and yes, they have a negative effect on any indie artist. but you have to understand getting into the game that you will have to deal with that. that is no reason for going after kids with computers and filing subpoenas. there are other methods. i think people should be outraged at the fact that these multi billion dollar corporations are going after the very people who let them become the success that they are. hell yes, while cds are 20 bucks, i will be downloading like a mf! we need to make those greedy suits know that THEY supply OUR demand. the consumers are not the commodity in question. we are their bosses. american consumers have forgotten that we CAN tell these people what is acceptable and what is not. filesharing is a way to do that. most people like to have the package of a new cd. if it only costs 10 bucks most people are likely to go out and buy it. it will be better quality than anything you can download, plus you get the booklet and case. but for 20 bucks...no way, its not worth it. if they stop paying these "artists" $25 million, they wouldn't need to charge so much. basically, we are paying for them to be celebrities. and what prince (and all of these musicians) is crying about is not freedom or respect. its a paycheck. nothing wrong with that either...just be upfront about it and drop the act. if it was truly about the music, prince would be living comfortably off of his interest and not caring how people heard his sounds, just as long as they were heard.

[/quote]
as for sabotage...well, it seems to me that prince sabotaged himself. especially with arista. clive made prince a priority at that label and it wasn't good enough for prince. he wanted to be THE priority.

Clive was involved with a power struggle that eventually cost him his company.




prince killed his own record with the "rave" fiasco. he refused to release anymore singles off of it. he refused to make anymore videos. he threw another one of his temper tantrums.

Prince did snap at Clive in the beginning,however he quickly learned that Clive was not in control.After the coup at Arista,Prince then learned of the bullshit planned for him and THEN he let the project die.





i understand what you mean when you speak of payola and muscle tactics, and yes, they have a negative effect on any indie artist. but you have to understand getting into the game that you will have to deal with that.

True.

that is no reason for going after kids with computers and filing subpoenas. there are other methods. i think people should be outraged at the fact that these multi billion dollar corporations are going after the very people who let them become the success that they are. hell yes, while cds are 20 bucks, i will be downloading like a mf! we need to make those greedy suits know that THEY supply OUR demand. the consumers are not the commodity in question. we are their bosses. american consumers have forgotten that we CAN tell these people what is acceptable and what is not. filesharing is a way to do that. most people like to have the package of a new cd. if it only costs 10 bucks most people are likely to go out and buy it. it will be better quality than anything you can download, plus you get the booklet and case. but for 20 bucks...no way, its not worth it. if they stop paying these "artists" $25 million, they wouldn't need to charge so much. basically, we are paying for them to be celebrities. and what prince (and all of these musicians) is crying about is not freedom or respect. its a paycheck. nothing wrong with that either...just be upfront about it and drop the act. if it was truly about the music, prince would be living comfortably off of his interest and not caring how people heard his sounds, just as long as they were heard.[/quote]


Understand that freedom can also mean FINANCIAL freedom.I agree with some of your points .Albums that have one or two good songs have been the norm rather than the anomlie.Back in the 50's,60's,70's & 80's the "single" was the answer for that problem.Now it is the download.One problem is that people are not getting paid and the techology is advancing faster than solutions.

Also understand that the problem with many who download music is that they do not want to pay for the music.They want something for nothing.You say that the American consumer CAN tell what is what.OK,do it and see what happens.

You are talking but does anyone hear you?

Lastly ,you have a militant spirit to you, if I am correct.
How can you not have empathy with Prince and the struggle he is involved with now?

muleFunk said:

i have a degree of empathy, but you must understand that prince has painted himself into a corner. i think the idea of a music club is great for an indie artist. it provides guaranteed profit which makes the creation of product possible. i also think that if you have a music club you really need to listen to the people who took the time to join. those people are the ones supporting you. those people, yes, are the ones downloading your music, but they are also the ones who will purchase it when you release it. they are the ones who have, for years, put up with temper tantrums and stubbornness. and prince rewards these supporters with what? i'm not talking about the measley dvd, either. i'm talking about the hassle that prince fans have to go through just to be prince fans. and don't say that we don't go through more crap just to get a teaser. if prince wasn't so focused on the dollar maybe he would allow someone else to manage his marketing and website. yes, he is an indie artist now. unfortunately he is an indie artist who has no clue how to run a business. now, i'm not saying he isn't successful. any peek inot his bank account can tell you that he is. but he puts way too much focus on getting that dollar. that focus has taken away from what could be a great club experience and a great indie career. he's trying to milk his small fan base for as much as he can get and for that, i have no empathy. part of that is our fault. sadly, one by one, he is beginning to eliminate his already declining fanbase. that's the really sad thing.

declining attention span edit
[This message was edited Thu Jul 24 9:44:35 PDT 2003 by imnotsayinthisjust2bnasty]

imnotsayinthisjust2bnasty said:

Oh, that's crap. Your definition of success is buying property??. Ani DeFranco, as well as many others, have sold far more independent releases than Prince. His 'successes' as an independent have all been on the back of his success with WB, which, BTW, is probably were the $$$ to buy those properties came from.

MKevon said:

you missed my whole point.

The sad thing is that Prince could have asked true fans to run the site & his other ventures better than what has occured in the past.

muleFunk said:

...and we agree! ...

At the end of the day if I buy a bootleg that is later released officially, i will buy it. And it think that this is the route most fans take.