2freaky4church1 said:

ian said:

have you read the book yourself? i have and it IS shit.

laurarichardson said:

I agree with all of the above. Prince doesn't know how to ask for help. He needs help now, and still doesn't know how to ask. He really does need an outside producer, someone to help him sort out his ideas. Nobody says he has to keep the producer forever, but working with somebody else on a few tracks would be good for him.

I also agree that I never felt sympathy for Wendy or Lisa. Wendy got the free ride of her life when she joined Prince's band. She stepped into a situation where she never had to struggle to make it. She was a teenager who stepped right into a band that was already making albums and having hits.

I don't have much sympathy for Prince either. He has mansions. He has money. He vacations regularly in Hawaii. He has adulation. And with everything he was blessed with, he is *still* an asshole.

Hmmm, okay - my 2 cents time.
I finished the book last week (BIG up bananacologne), and there are only a few points that I either disagree with in it, or I just plain think are shit.

I never learned anything new about Prince.I always knew he was an two timing, two faced, arrogant, self centred, spoiled guy.I NEVER imagined you attained the position he did by being the nicest, cutest, best friend you ever had.

The book would have more validity if (like someone else pointed out) there weren't major errors in it.

What - no one was available to proof-read it??!!

---

DSMR is a much better book than Posessed.

I knew a fellow who used to be on Prince's legal team back in the early 90's.He told me shit about Prince that I still have not seen or heard of since.

Prince is not God he will make mistakes.I am glad that some have tried to help the brother out.

Oh ! I forgot that you dont like Prince now because he doesn't cuss or swear .

Which Prince do you want ?

I've finished reading the book two weekd ago. I must say I wasn't really surprised about all the negative sides to Prince's character and the way he treats people and dumps them after being critized by them.
The final chapter was IMO the weakest. It consists mostly of hearsay and speculation. It leaves a bad taste into your mouth after finishing it.

The one thing that really surprised/irritated me was the complete lack of knowledge of Hahn about rock/pop music in the past 25 years. It's already mentioned but there are quite a few mistakes when he writes about music in general. It looks like he has never listened to the radio, read music magazines or other info before he began writing this book. Therefore he doen't seem to have a real love for music in general in Prince's music specifically.
It's not bad to be critical about Prince's output but why write a book about the man when you consider most of his music mediocre?

Prince has/had issues, and, most of the time he didn't/doesn't go about dealing with them in the best way.
[This message was edited Tue Jun 24 23:54:52 PDT 2003 by lovebizzare]

I'm a big De Niro's fan as well...When I read the biography that was published a few years ago, the character that was described in the book totally disgusted me.

Do not let yourself influence by that kind of books. The idea is to sell a maximum of them so they've got to come up with as amny scandals and crap as they can. They are only interested in the dark side of superstars.

Sueme said:

ditto.
I like Wendy, and she is a very nice person, but i've always thought she had some nerve to complain. I mean, she didn't have to struggle, she didn't get booed off stage at a Stones concert, she happened to be friends with someone who was gracious enough to introduce her to someone who took her in.
She was, what, 19 when she joined, she was a kid, what did she know about "trying to make it"? Nothing. She was basicly pushed into success. I know she had other issues with Prince (the whole susannah thing), but she had no right to complain about the band, if she didn't like it, fine, but she didn't have to bitch and complain about it day in and day out(if she really did, the whole situation could be dramatized(sp?)) it was his band, not hers. He could do whatever he wanted. He was her boss, not the other way around.
But this goes for other band memebers as well.
I really do understand why Prince fired her (lisa on the other hand, I don't know, I've never heard about her making a big deal out of it). I know they were friends and everything, but he was her boss and she was his employee, of course your boss is gonna fire you if you continue to whine and complain, this is no different than working at a bank. oh well, at least she didn't do the whole scorned woman act, as others have done.
I'm not bashing her, I realy do like her, I just don't think she went about this issue in the right way-But then agian, this can be said about many of the things Prince has done.
[This message was edited Wed Jun 25 0:16:41 PDT 2003 by lovebizzare]

I agree,Wendy does come off as a total bitch in this book.So she had problems with Prince's decision to expand the Revolution for the 'Parade' tour? Well,it was PRINCE'S band and he had every right to have the type of band that HE wanted!! I think the problem was,he got a little TOO close to W&L and they began to think that they had more power and influence than they really did.They began to get huge egos and expected Prince to do everything their way (even though he was their boss).I,for one,was glad when Prince let them go.He then went on to have the best band of his career (the Lovesexy band).Curiously,Hahn doesn't really talk alot about this band.

2freaky4church1 said:

Prince smokes???

Remeber guys that this is Hahn's take on things, Wendy has always declined to comment, so do not be too harsh.

As for the book as a whole, it has some interesting parts and insights but is on a biased and bitter work.

What I cant fathom is why someone who calls himself a fan and who is writing such a book can seriously expect it to be well considered in terms of reviewing Prince and his career if he has not joined the NPG Muisc Club, and thus not experienced all that has been great since 2001 and thus what Freedom really feels like.

At the end of the day we all have our good and bad points, just like Prince does.

DavidEye said:

Hi Laura, that's what I'm talking about. I've no idea if the book is any good or not (I won't read it, I have very little interest in Prince beyond his music) but I just found it funny that people who hadn't even read the book were slagging it off Quite in keeping with our fanboy status here on the Org...

However, if you've read it, and it is shit, fair enough!

origmnd said:

co-sign.

mattosgood said:

"Wendy has always declined to comment"??

Funny,the book is FILLED with quotes that are attributed to her...lol...I'm just bein' silly here but yeah,I get your point

DeVaniti said:

What??? Lost???

In what way did Prince's claim against 'Uptown' magazine 'win'?

Prince sued 'Uptown' magazine on two counts.

He claimed the magazine violated copyright and trademark rights (by using the symbol in their publication).

The claim was never upheld.

Instead, 'Uptown' was allowed to continue (rather than prevented from) using the symbol by which Prince wished to be referred to during a period of his life - a symbol which many publications had used with not a whisper of legal action, perhaps due to the fact that Prince had distributed the computerised symbol typeface encouraging publishers to use it in their publications - something which Prince subsequently admitted in legal papers filed.

He also claimed 'Uptown' tried to pass itself off as an official publication.

'Uptown' denied ever having purported to have been an official publication

The passing off claim was never upheld.

'Uptown' magazine contained a disclaimer stating its independence. During the time of the legal action, 'Uptown' improved the prominence of this disclaimer on its publications, and when the legal action was settled, Uptown agreed to continue displaying the disclaimer.

The agreement permits 'Uptown' to continue to comment freely on unreleased material, although (presumably to remove any doubt that Uptown supported bootleg recordings) 'Uptown' agreed no longer to print discographies of so-called bootlegs. (The legal claims filed by Prince never alleged that 'Uptown' ever marketed bootlegs.)

Given that neither of Prince's claims upon which he sued were ever upheld legally, it's difficult to understand how he can be seen to have 'won'. Rather, the claims were vigorously and successfully defended by the legal team representing 'Uptown'.

laurarichardson said:[quote]

ian said:

There´s something I don´t understand...I haven´t read
POSSESSED yet but it seems that most people on the org
don´t really like it but prefer DMSR by Per Nielsen. I
have a lot of biographies including Pop Life by Dave Hill
, which is pretty accurate and unbiased, but WHY do people
like DMSR so much when in fact POSSESSED is based on research done by Nielsen for DMSR ??? Sure, Nielsen goes way
deeper when it comes to the music, but isn´t Possessed more
or less a bunch of "outtakes" from DMSR and therefore in the
same vein ?? So what´s the big difference really ??
I mean how can people rave about Nielsen and DMSR and hate
Possessed by Hahn when actually most of what´s been used in
Hahn´s book stems from Nielsen ...
As a collector of biographies I´m really curious where ppl
see the main differences..
Regards, the E ..still wondering whether I should order Possessed or not.

ian said:

Judging by your repeated comments, the "fanboy status" level here at the org seems to amuse you just as much as it amuses me. But leave that argument aside for a minute.

Having said that, just for objectivity's sake I actually think it would be helpful if you did pick up the book and read it,Ian.

You may sincerely mean it when you say you do not harbour an unhealthy interest in Prince beyond his music, and that's how I personally think it should be.
Besides I can think of better ways to spend your free time than having to suffer a lumpen, badly written diatribe like Hahn's book. But, like they say, no pain no gain.

If I remember correctly, at one point you said you were hoping to review the book before it came out. What was the outcome of that? I'm curious to know.

So, cast your ostrich-like demeanor aside, Ian, and take the plunge.
It won't be a pretty experience but at least it will give you some kind of insight, particularly as to why so many people posting feel the way they do about "Possessed".


.

langebleu said:

This tells me who won

UPTOWN, DAYS OF WILD and TURN IT UP 2.0 are in no way endorsed by, sponsored by, sanctioned by, authorized by, affiliated with or connected with Paisley Park Enterprises, Prince or NPG Music Club.

Nuff said.

giotto said:

Hey, what little free time I get is divided between (a) helping to run the Org (b) making videogames (c) my wife and (d) learning to drive. I don't have time to read a book about Prince

However I will read it, if someone sends me a copy I just won't spend my hard earned cash on it! Too much other stuff to read. I did offer to review the book but I never got a copy ... I think Ben got a few copies of the book that he was gonna give away in a competition, but I'm not sure if that has actually happened yet.

I did read DMSR, and it is a fabulous piece of work. Very in-depth, and really great for fans. I doubt anything can ever compare to that book, which is unfortunate for Mr Hahn. I'm sure his book couldn't be as bad as defensive fans here have made out, but at the same time it would have a very tough time competing with the books by Per Nilssen. Although my interest in Prince is strictly for his music, when you are a fan of something it is awful fun to hear about the "making of"... it's always interesting to hear tidbits of info surrounding the making of a classic album, or movie, or videogame. That's the appeal of DMSR, for me.

The diversity of opinion out here about my book is helpful...I've learned a lot and I think some people have made reasonable points. There are indeed a few typos (like referring to "the Edge" as "Bono") that have already been corrected for the second print-run, and I appreciate people catching them. Much more so than my incredibly talented subject, I am prone to human error.

The genuine anger from some orgers, though, is a bit hard for me to understand. I'm trying to come to terms with it and respect people's opinions, even when they are delivered harshly. "Possessed" is a critical book in many respects, but does not paint Prince as a monolithically bad person. Look at the way the book concludes -- acknowledging some apparent personal growth on the part of Prince and excitement among some associates about his new musical directions. (Page 245). And much of the first half of the book is quite laudatory of Prince's music.

A gentleman named Paul Katz posted a review of the book on amazon.com that said this:

". . . Alex Hahn has done his homework, and admirably so in my opinion. While some die-hard fans and "Prince apologists" will probably find much to be upset about, the fact is, Hahn makes his points incredibly well. I find no appearance of deliberate malice towards Prince in this book. How will fans react to *Possessed*? Depends on what kind of fan they are. If they are fans that refuse to believe anything negative about their idol, they will hate it. If they are fans that have objectivity, they will probably find it very interesting. I fall into the latter category."

It's also interesting that some orgers have called Per Nilsen's "DanceMusicSexRomance" a much better book. My hat is always off to Per, and he indeed helped quite a bit with "Possessed." Without wanting to in any way speak for Per, I do know that our views on Prince's career are in many respects similar. While Per's book is less critical in tone, I know he is very happy with how "Possessed" turned out.

Again, people have made some helpful points and my mind is open to reasoned criticism. It will help make future editions better.

One final point -- I don't know what Prince himself thinks of the book, but I do know that various people who remain in his orbit and even work with him haven't suffered any reprisals for saying some tough things in the book. I think that says a lot about Prince as someone who can grow. Part of my hope in writing the book was that Prince might be open to constructive criticism -- not necessarily from me, but from some of his talented and intelligent associates.

Anyone who reads the book and has observations should feel free to either post them out here or initiate a private dialogue with me. I appreciate the feedback.

Alex Hahn

DeVaniti said:

That tells you that Prince had to settle a futile action at the cost of appearing misguided and mistaken for starting these legal claims ... in return for a sticker!

Good points, Alex.

I think quite frequently, Prince fans are less adept at handling criticism of Prince than Prince himself is

As for the comment about "Prince apologists" - there is some truth in this really... following this guy's career for so many years, through so many ups and downs... as a fan it is natural to want to make excuses for some of the crazier bits - Graffiti Bridge movie, the name change, scrawling "slave" on his face etc.

I think the main reason Per is so appreciated for his book DMSR is this : when writing a book about an artist that has thousands of rabid, pedantic, dedicated fans... the only way to do it and not piss half of them off is to stick "to the facts" and let the quotes from your sources speak for themselves. Per's book felt like a "documentary" more than a bio, so had less room for opinion and editorial-style content. For that reason, it was a safer bet, because the hardcore fans will appreciate the attention to detail, and the "look behind the scenes" without anyone really stepping up and telling them that their musical hero can be a bit of a jerk at times.

KoolEaze said:

Same advice as I gave Ian, my friend. Read the book. It will dispel a lot of conjecture.

If you do, it will soon become clear that Hahn does not necessarily go along with much of what Nilsen has written in the past.
Could this be a red herring? Maybe. What is certain is that at times "Possessed" seems to come from a whole different perspective.
Who can say at this point whether this was intentional or not? Personally,I would favour the former hypothesis.

Sure,"Possessed" is partly based on research carried out by Nilsen for "D.M.S.R.". Let's not forget for a moment what a huge selling point Nilsen's endoresement could prove to be for Hahn - who must be more than grateful by the UPTOWN connection. A case of "if you scratch my back I'll scratch yours" if I ever saw one...

Say what you like about 'D.M.S.R.',accusations were rampant here at the org that the book read like the work of someone not well-versed in the English language ( such observations always struck me as moronic).
However, it is significant that Nilsen studiously avoided Hahn's shabby tabloid-like aspect like the plague. A credit to Nilsen, who at least treated his subject with a modicum of respect and objectivity whilst managing the trick of always remaining neutral on the subject. On the other hand, it is obvious that Hahn is quite incapable of mustering a shred of objectivity.

What's worse: the thought has just occurred to me that Hahn simply couldn't care less. If he is nearly as mercenary as he appears to be then why should he?

You will find that, on numerous occasions, Hahn's perspective (not to mention personal opinion) greatly differs from Nilsen's. It's interesting to observe that, at times, the author of "Possessed" appears to be at loggerheads with what has already been documented in 'Days Of Wild' (an UPTOWN publication). But, like I already said, this could well be a red herring...

You speculate that "Possessed" could be "a bunch of outtakes from "D.M.S.R" and that most of what Hahn has used "stems from Nilsen". Well, Hahn appears to have gone much further than that and gone the proverbial extra mile.
He has cannibalised a series of well-chosen passages from a number of books and has fashioned a hideously derivative pot-pourry to back up his own preconceived ideas before he administers his coup de grace. I can see remnants of books such as "Slave To The Rhythm", to name just one, used in the mix. Hahn has hardly bothered to disguise his references.

"Possessed" is not a serious attempt to chronicle the highs and lows of a spent rock-star. It is an excessively personalised account that often reads like payback time.


.

langebleu said:

Yeah, and a powerful one, in the endorsement driven society that we live, it speaks volumes. For every one that continues in the site there are many more that turn away, and you can believe that or not. I truly don't care, but since I am a Web Developer by trade, I am paid to know the kinds of things that turn people away from websites. And that 'sticker' definately does! You can say what you will about the man's methods, he still gets the job done.

AlexHahn said:

You've got Marketing 101 down, I'll give you that. Keep people interested and talking, good or bad and make sure your names out there. Oh and the concern now for how Prince might be feeling about it...definately nice touch. Just the right amount of compassion without really being compassionate. Brava!

thebumpsquad said:

'Big up' WHAT dude?

Ian your last post hit the nail on the head !

Alex,I have read your book TWICE !
I will not need to read it three times.
S.O.S.

DeVaniti said:

Fucking hell... there's a thread about the guy, with some pretty harsh comments about him and his work, so you can at least acknowledge his right to respond. More than you'll ever get from Prince. Some people

ian said:

I've read the book, and while it is informative, it is not a great bio. It does not shed light on Prince -- not for me, anyway. The author's opinions are simply too conventional and bland, as if he wanted to put Prince on trial in front of a middle class jury. This is even more obvious now that I've moved to another biography, this time on Truman Capote. Capote's reputation was quite tarnished when he died, and the book chronicles many fatal flaws -- but it doesn't come off as Truman Capote On Trial - You Be the Judge. Many aspects of Possessed are narrowly moralistic, and that 's not something that lend itself to a great bio.

Take the girlfriends, for instance : is there any doubt that all of them knew Prince was seeing other girls early in their relationship? Yet they kept seeing him... so why are we encouraged to feel sorry for them? Alex Hahn's bias shows in hilarious ways.

The associates? I have a lot of respect for some of them, but we're given the impression that Prince keeps them down and that their talent is exploited while they could be doing bigger things if only Prince hadn't been such a control freak. Yet all this talent that was supposedly stiffled under Prince does not thrive very much without it. Wendy and Lisa had some nice records, but they didn't shine without Prince, at least by Billboard's and Rolling Stone's standards. There are notable exceptions, but in most cases, if you apply the same norms that led to the infamous subtitle of Possessed in Prince's case, you find their "rise" was certainly under Prince, not after him. And there's little acknowledgment of Prince's relative tolerance of some of the associates' flaws. Both Denise Matthew and Morris Day were hooked on drugs and played little games with Prince, yet when they are dismissed or things fall apart, we're told some more about Prince's bad behavior, such as Prince taking Appolonia to some nightclub to humiliate Vanity - as much as Prince slept around, how much fun was it to have a druggie co-star who slept with everyone and your tour manager and film director? As for Morris, he had to be forced to the set of Purple Rain because he had coke-induced paranoia. Is it any wonder Prince was not so "cool" with him? Morris had a great opportunity after Purple Rain and blew it... all his own fault! But it's still Prince who is presented as the bad guy.

Possessed is too heavy on agenda and too light in real interest in the subject. In Truman Capote's biography, the author's relationship with his mother is detalied and analyzed every step of the way. In Possessed, we're told of Prince's relationship with his father during his formative years, then the dad drops out of the picture almost totally, and his disease and death barely register at the end, not even as an explanation for Prince's renewed interest in jazz. The same goes for his mother. That's very sloppy of Hahn as a biographer.

Ultimately, he does not tell Prince's life as much as stand in judgment of it. And I'm not even getting into the musical analysis, which is by-the-book, conventional and uninspired. While Prince more than deserves some of the criticism expressed, so does the author as a biographer.

And that's why Possessed is not such a great book, wherever you stand on Prince.