I never understood where the confusion came from.

Anji darling...


For many years within the black community there have been "those" that have had negative comments on Prince's lifestyle. Many have commented on the fact he hasn't been "seen" with a dark skinned woman. Many have commented that he can't choose between doing "black" R&B or "white" rock & roll. Also in the late eighties with the development of gansta rap...many rappers made comments that black men should not be running like sissys with eye liner and their hair straight...kinda like a direct aim at Prince and similar male recording artists...


But the unfortunate age old issue...skin color. We all know that Prince a light skinned black male. Sad to say the issue of color is and will always be an issue within the black race. Prince has always been attacked with the community for this feature (which of course is not his fault). Many light skinned blacks go through this type of "self racism."

Prince is just one of many to be judged. So now the image you see is a black man that is stating..."I Prince am a black male...period"

Maybe this has always been an issue with him and he never made it known. I do understand and feel his pain. Maybe too you will soon see an end to him wearing high-heel shoes...etc...maybe the pressure finally has gotten to him and he wishes to be seen as a "strong black male figure." Possibly from his current associate with JW members.

Prince is definately changing. Interesting to see what he turn out looking like when he is complete...

Thanks for that respose, Juney! One thought I have is does Prince need to conform to be seen as a strong black male, as you suggest?

I'm not sure he looks funky without the heels!

Hi June,
I read your post with great interest. Only one problem. You talk about the black community without stating the things Prince himself did to distance himself from that community.

---
For many years within the black community there have been "those" that have had negative comments on Prince's lifestyle. Many have commented on the fact he hasn't been "seen" with a dark skinned woman. Many have commented that he can't choose between doing "black" R&B or "white" rock & roll. Also in the late eighties with the development of gansta rap...many rappers made comments that black men should not be running like sissys with eye liner and their hair straight...kinda like a direct aim at Prince and similar male recording artists...
---

First of all about Prince and women of colour. I am sure I was not the only one who noticed that the Only time we ever saw a dark skinned sister in any Prince project was in "Under The Cherry Moon" when we saw a brief glimpse of what he did not want to go back to. But whatever his tastes in women are is his business. Also wasn't it Prince who lied and said he was part Italian/part Black. When both his parents are black?
I agree with you though. The renewed maleness in music made the straightend hair obsolete. Frankly I see this as a positive thing. Black musicians have been 'conking' and doing other harmful practices to their hair for generations. Asserting ones natural features is great. It also marks a recognision that ones good given feature are beautiful.

---
But the unfortunate age old issue...skin color. We all know that Prince a light skinned black male. Sad to say the issue of color is and will always be an issue within the black race. Prince has always been attacked with the community for this feature (which of course is not his fault). Many light skinned blacks go through this type of "self racism."
---

None of the biographies I have read ever said that Prince endured any negative treatment for being fair-skinned. His first group to embrace him was the black media and the black community. It was when he wanted to grow his audience and cross-over that prince began to reinvent his racial identity. He took several steps to do this. Claiming to be of mixed race, replacing black musicians with white ones.etc. Also if you look at his skin colour on the first two albums, you can see that his skin appears darker than it has since. Hmmm. Maybe Michael Jackson was not the only one who did some bleaching.
To be fair though. The early eighties was a lot different than now. It was hard for a black artist to find that cross-over audience, and the prevailing wisdom was to be less "black" in order to do that. Not now. It is really cool to be a black man today. Girls of all colors want ya. Plus with hip-hop being at the forefront of music and popular culture. Nuff said.
I think its a cruel irony that both Prince and MJ are now more determined than ever to reclaim there original colour when for a large part of the last two decades they were trying to distance themselves from it. But don't blaim the "black community". The "black" community has given these brothers nothing but love. If anything blame the system that for so long made it hard for black men to be themselves and succeed.

...

DonRants said:

The truth is...we do have a tendency to be more judgemental on "our" people within the media. Yes the black community has given both Prince and MJ plenty of support..but with a touch of poison...support in love..but the first moment you do something deemed as being "anti-black" you will be ridiculed...

And as far as "the system" goes...the world loves black men. LOL..black men get more props more than what they realize. Lets be real...yes things are still not fair and many minorities have to work 10 times as hard to get ahead. But eventually we have to acknowledge the fact there is a "system" and work at "overcoming the system." We have a problem of using this as a excuse. Prince didn't bow down to this theory...neither should we...

My opinon...Prince has always been a positive figure for the black community...I've never needed him to prove anything about being black enough.

I always thought he was white.

And gay.

No. For most fans that have followed his career from the beginning, there never was a doubt. But, I do remember in his earliest interviews, he would never own up to being black and I think that confused some folks and turned some other folks (brothers and sisters) off. I maybe wrong, but I don't think it was until the late 80's/early 90's that he ackmowleged the fact that he is black...in the press,anyway.Honestly, it bothered me a bit, myself being a black man. But, black, white, straight, or gay, I couldn't get pass how bad a motherfucker he was. So his stance to keep his race out of the equation never stopped me from digging his music. I think that was his concern, that if the "black artist" label was attached to him that it would curb who his audience would be. I don't know. I wouldn't have gone about it that way, but hey, he's Prince. He's always been a fuck the rules of the industry guy. Since I do go back a ways, I can tell you that from For You to Controversy/1999, the shows that I went to there was predominantly black people just a freakin'.

The interview he did on BET with Tavis Smiley a few years ago, he did acknowledged that his audience has always been predominently black ever since the beginning of his career until now. So regardless, I think that we will always have that support and love for one another.
I also remember reading one of the interviews that Prince and Spike Lee did and Spike asked him about not being associated with black women. Prince response was that he has dated Black/Dark skinned women, but it was the media that chose to show only the other women that he was with. He admit to being young and naive at the time but now that he's older he thinks and see thinks differently.
With that said so many questioning his wife's ethnicity, she's black. Now she may not look like Angela Bassett as far as complexion goes, but her complexion is no lighter than Halle Berry's and there's no doubt that she's black. Mani's darker than Prince, yet he's black and she isn't?
The point is that maybe he didn't always embrace his race or culture, but now he does in every aspect including the women. Sometimes people have to travel a curved road to go straight. I'm just happy he found his way.
[This message was edited Sat May 31 14:42:52 PDT 2003 by CocoSweet]

I personally don't buy into the so-called "afro-centric" mindset that says that unless you wear your hair "natural" you are trying to be white, manifesting a slave mentality, and rejecting or hating your own culture or race(a self-hatred).
From what I gather, a black woman, Madame C.J. Walker, a chemist, created the scalp and hair conditioner to help heal scalp and hair problems, hair softener/relaxer to help black people with making their hair more manageable, etc. She became a millionaire and I see no shame or degredation in that.
"I am a woman who came from the cotton fields of the South. From there I was promoted to the washtub. From there I was promoted to the cook kitchen. And from there I promoted myself into the business of manufacturing hair goods and preparations...I have built my own factory on my own ground"
Madam Walker, National Negro Business League Convention, July 1912

Then I started looking at how ancient Egyptians cared for their hair. After all, Egypt is on the African continent and was one of the first great civilizations. So if you wanna go back to the "motherland" shouldn't you look there as well as the rest of the continent?
I came to find out that the Egyptians used various oils, such as linseed oil. sesame oil,olive oil, for hair care. The oils were used to improve the hair's managability, texture, and appearance. They also, shaved their hair off and wore wigs or extensions made from real human hair and plant fibers. Henna was used on hair, nails, and skin.
Black people have had enough of the white man seeking to "define" what it means to be black, but we don't need a bunch of politically correct black demagogues now drumming in our heads what it means to be black either.

Mani is black??

Yes CocoSweet. I am glad that you mentioned Mani. I was looking at a picture which is black and white but it had Mani and Prince in it. They were at some basketball game is Toronto (Mani's hometown). Now When i looked at the girl, She was Darker then Prince but you could really tell that she is African-American. So i am following what Prince says about the fact that he has dated African-American women before but the media never gives us a sign or proof that he does.

CocoSweet said:

Irish9 said:

"that if the "black artist" label was attached to him that it would curb who his audience would be.'

I always belived that was his concern. He did not want to be stuck on the black music charts. It is a different world today. Everybody loves black music but, if Prince came on the scence today he would not have a chance because he is not a rapper. What a shame that you are dammed if you do or dammed if you don't.

OH POOH!!!

Hi June,
OK your points are well taken. You are right about the complaints against Artist who have seeked the cross-over. However it has been a long time since that has been leveled at Prince.

Mr. Mcgee - take the red pill and get the hell out of the matrix. "Black Demagogues" are not the reason for not straigthening ones hair. Good old common sense will tell you it is not a healthy practise to straigthen your hair with chemicals or by burning it with a hot iron. Ask an elderly Black woman what chemicals and straightening did to her hair and note the answer you get.They will all tell you that over time it ruins your hair. Madame CJ, Walker said she wanted to prove that black people could have "beautiful hair' too. Meaning she did not consider her natural hair beautiful. Which is the programming many black people have received to this day. We were told that our natural hair is "nappy" and did not see how unique and beautiful it is. A lot of us are now realising this was bullshit and are choosing other hairstyles Idreadlocks, braids etc.) which do not involve destroying your natural hair in an attempt to meet a Europeanized standard of beauty.
Perhaps the best discussion of Black musicians and straightening hair can be found in "The Autobiography of Malcolm X". I suggest you read it, but you probably consider him a demagogue.
---
I personally don't buy into the so-called "afro-centric" mindset that says that unless you wear your hair "natural" you are trying to be white, manifesting a slave mentality, and rejecting or hating your own culture or race(a self-hatred).
From what I gather, a black woman, Madame C.J. Walker, a chemist, created the scalp and hair conditioner to help heal scalp and hair problems, hair softener/relaxer to help black people with making their hair more manageable, etc. She became a millionaire and I see no shame or degredation in that.
"I am a woman who came from the cotton fields of the South. From there I was promoted to the washtub. From there I was promoted to the cook kitchen. And from there I promoted myself into the business of manufacturing hair goods and preparations...I have built my own factory on my own ground"
Madam Walker, National Negro Business League Convention, July 1912

Then I started looking at how ancient Egyptians cared for their hair. After all, Egypt is on the African continent and was one of the first great civilizations. So if you wanna go back to the "motherland" shouldn't you look there as well as the rest of the continent?
I came to find out that the Egyptians used various oils, such as linseed oil. sesame oil,olive oil, for hair care. The oils were used to improve the hair's managability, texture, and appearance. They also, shaved their hair off and wore wigs or extensions made from real human hair and plant fibers. Henna was used on hair, nails, and skin.
Black people have had enough of the white man seeking to "define" what it means to be black, but we don't need a bunch of politically correct black demagogues now drumming in our heads what it means to be black either.

DonRants, thank-you. You've saved me from having to say so much.

1. It was Prince who attempted to distance himself from the black community, not vice versa.

2. As a black woman, I've never resisted Prince's prediliction for rock music or considered rock to be a non-black musical genre (consider the roots). Rock is actually my favorite genre and it pangs me that he sways mostly toward funk and R&B now.

Growing up in the Chicagoland area, which loves Prince dearly, I've seen his rock songs played on R&B stations all the time. WGCI for example gives him mad support.

3. As far as black men not embracing his effeminate style, look at all the rappers and other black male artists who've begged to redo his records or who've sampled him. Prince's talent and aura made him transcendent. Blacks (and I hate speaking of people as groups) have never turned their backs on Prince. C'mon even Spike Lee and Eddie Murphy loved Prince ... and Murphy used to be hard core testerone.


3. The women: It was Prince's choice to send a message out about the type of woman he wanted by choosing a string of women who all fit the same mode: very light with long hair. He lifted these types up on videos, etc. as the standard of beauty. As a young black girl, of course I subconsciously noticed that and tried to explain it away so I wouldn't resent that he had fallen for the MYTH! It seems now that he's awakening from the myth that all things Euro-centric are superlative. He's doing this as part of a personal journey not because he risked losing his black audience. Blacks would love Prince still, even if he rode down the hood on a pony with long flowing hair and three white women on the back.

4.Yes, there is intraracial prejudice due to variations in skin tone. But while a lighter skin color can attract some censure, generally it's preferred. (Remember "If you're light, you're alright, if you're brown hang around, if you're black get back." Prince grew up when these mentalities prevailed.) Unfortunately, he was probably seen as fine and pretty, largely because of his skin color. He was never hated because of it.

5. Lastly, I don't think Prince's changes have anything to to with him being judged by blacks. I believe it's an outgrowth of the spiritual and cultural assessment he been forced to undergo ever since departing Warner Brothers. While musical freedom/politics were factors, I recall Prince insinuating that he felt undervalued as a person of color. He's been looking inside himself and re-evaluating ever since.
[This message was edited Sat May 31 21:28:07 PDT 2003 by SynthiaRose]

His skin has got lighter over the years though unless he wears a lot of makeup. My friend & I noticed it on the 'Prince' album cover

GREAT thread as always ANji. ok first of all i am 100% behind the insightful points by irish,d-rants (yeah man!)
and s-rose ( being from chi-town i know your points first-hand!)

Alright my take is this. RACE will always be an issue in
the world-especially among the afro-american race and since
i've been around a while i know its tough on black artists
to "straddle the fence".

where i came from-the brothas would make cracks about prince's clothes,look,and his predominae use of his falsetto
(aw man he's a...) but they'd also dig him as musician.
the girls i knew LOVED him. and didn't care too much about
his look. the problem they had was that his videos featured
mostly non-sistas and that's who the media focused on him
dating.

if anyone been around over 40 years (like me) they will remember the time among blacks that being 'high yellow"
was looked as FINE,being DARk brown UGLY! girls and guys
alike chose who they wanted to be with by this "stupid"
CRITERIA,for ages. when the black is beautiful period came
about then IT was ok to be dark. (can i get a witness on
this fact people?" )
on the subject prince being with "non-black girls...don't
come down too hard on him. i know a lot of big time political activists and politicans who talked serious "stuff" about race-acted all "down" but were married
to something WAY different than what they said.

prince,grew up in Minneapolis. its nothing like my hometown
chicago and i'm sure his environment may have something to
do with how he views himself.

to me a afro-american male (a straight one) i always saw
him as a black man. and a straight one. the look and weird
clothes didn't freak me out too much. i've seen it all as
far as performers present themselves. and learned a long-time ago,don't LET what U see cloud what's really behind
the "story". i dug why some of my people had problems with
some of prince's "strange ways-looks etc etc...but sometimes
we tend to stereotype our OWN artist too much and chose them
on what we precieve as being "down".

i know some guys thought the b-knees about teddy pendegrass
back when he was hot -mostly cuz he was 100 male and black.

then after his tragic accident (and because of the "person"
he was with ) they turned against him! (a few sistas did,too!) my point is-don't judge a book by its cover!

prince having a heavy rock style of playing guitar (and his
rock-look) got a lot of the bros on his case-which i found
silly because: blacks created ROCk.

if you know p's background he (and all his minny buddies
sonny t,andre,morris,jam.lewis) all grew up listening to
rock stations-cuz that's all they HAD!!!

man i could go on forever on this subject.
but i'll let it go for now.

basically prince's current view of himself means he's
maturing. How he was back in the day isn't necessarily
what he is today.

the issue of his blackness never was in question to me.
(it might have been a problem within him.)

which doesn't make him a bad guy, just human.

again anji...superb thread.

Good to see so many people taking part in this thread on the very important topic of skin colour.

Prince always had black (or mixed)friends/girlfriends:
Boni boyer
Members from The time
Apolonia, Vanity
Cat
Rapers (Sony T…)
Georges Clinton, Larry Graham…

plus latinos:
Jill Jones, Sheila E, Ingrid Shavez…

He travelled in marocco, Spain… Did he ever go in Africa ?
Well, Prince has always been like he always said from 1978: black and white.

DonRants said:

You hit the nail on the head when you said "choosing"...CHOICE. If you choose to wear dreads, braids, afros, etc. fine and well. If others CHOOSE to relax or hot comb it does not mean they are programmed. It means they are FREE to choose. They are no less black. I know of older black women who have done it all their lives and they still have a healthy looking full head of hair. Moderation is the key. Most damage comes from over processing-too much too frequently.
But again, my point is CHOICE.
Just as we black people come in all hues and colors, from high yellow to very dark, so too, a myriad of hair textures and styles, covering the full spectrum is fine by me.
My own children cover a full spectrum of hair textures. I have kids with hair as fine as white people's to kids with hair like lamb's wool. Same daddy(me), same mama(my wife).
I don't want white people saying you have to process, but I don't want some black people saying you shouldn't or can't.
CHOICE.

Prince is Black?



I wish I'd known this before I started my 15 year obsession
with his music.

Well, if you look at some recent pictures, particularly any pictures of him at BBall Games, his skin looks quite dark in fact.

for example:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~aar...n21_02.jpg

DavidEye said:

What do you think she is, David?

CalhounSq said:

This is a very worthwhile topic, Cal!

Anji said:

She is Egyptian...and Italian...for some...this qualifies as being black

TheP said:

No one has ever doubted Prince had black friends, especially male friends of all shades.

Some of us (Me, for example) are simply citing his symbolic choices of video and movie women, which suggested what type of woman he believes is sexy, beautiful and romantically desirable. Appollina and Vanity are both very light women of mixed heritage with long wavy/straight hair.

Big Boni wasn't presented as sexy. And besides, like Cat, she came after he disbanded the Revolution and went (shall I say it) blacker. I remember being shocked to see Cat in the Sign Live concert. From Sign of the Times on, he seems to have gone progressively "blacker" with his entourage and musical associates. (That's actually bothered me a bit. I loved the eccentric mix of The Revolution, which remains my favorite band.)
[This message was edited Sun Jun 1 8:01:47 PDT 2003 by SynthiaRose]

I'm interested to know who actually decided to play-down Prince's race from the start. I'm certain Prince would not have had the commercial sense to understand how things might have been predjudiced against him, given that he was very young and inexperienced. One theory is that his management/Warners may have gently coached him on the race issue in terms of how he approached the media.

Anji said:

From my understanding...


When you hear albums such as Dirty Mind you hear Prince discussing embracing all races and lifestyles...

I think it was Prince's enviornment...the running joke is..."Besides Prince how many black folks really live in Minneapolis?"

Prince grew up in a very diverse enviornment and he stated in earlier interviews he always hung out with the kids "from the wrong side of the tracks."

Of course during that time period...and going into the eighties...it was more "in" to be mixed than to be black...lol...lawd the things society place in the human mind...

I do think Prince did not wish to be limited to only being on the "black" charts back then...therefore he made his band and music diverse...IE...remember folks he "did" open for the Rolling Stones...and got booed off the stage

Besides..by now we should all know Prince is the ah-hem Prince of gimmicks..he knows what he is doing...he always has a plan...to stay ahead of the game...