not at all..but my point was only that this thread was allowed to remain because it was allegedly about song lyrics...

almost all of the other threads regarding this were deleted...and certainly any showing an opposing account of what happened..

IceNine said:

They are very poor any way you look at them, but yeah he just wanted to piss some people off.

This is why Prince doesn't really interest me very much anymore.

lovemachine said:

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You do not support him but, you still come this site. Amazing how your lack of interest draws you to this site(LOL)
[This message was edited Thu May 29 14:55:16 PDT 2003 by laurarichardson]

This is interesting...

THE MOORS


Who were they?
The Moors are not a specific race of people. The word has never been clearly defined and remains ambiguous and confusing. This term has been broadly used to denote various people in North Africa, people who came from Morocco or simply to describe Muslims in general. Christians in the 13th century also referred to the Moors as "Moriscos" and "Mudejares".

The word MOORS may have evolved from the Greek 'Mauros' which means 'dark'. The Greeks were in Spain around 500 BC, 300 years before the Romans. The Romans probably pinched it from the Greeks, complete with its original connotation of 'dark'. This might explain why the Latin 'Maurus' translates literally into 'Moors', with no further definition. Borrowing directly from the Greek meaning, this would have been good enough for the Romans to describe the 'dark' skinned people of North Africa. This is all conjecture of course, but its close enough for me.

The Webster's New World Dictionary identifies Moors as "a member of Moslem people of mixed Arab and Berber descent." This deletion of "black" or "Negro" from the term Moor is generally recent. Though the word "Moor" originally seems to have been meant to indicate Blacks, it in time came to be applied to Muslims in general, especially the Berbers.
Africans In Early Europe

In any case, the word was first applied officially to the indigenous people of a Roman province in North Africa called Mauretania (Latin = 'land of the Moors'). This roughly corresponds to present day North Morocco and Algeria. The name Morocco is another reminder of the region's "Moorish" past.

When the Arabs swept westward and captured North Africa in the 7th century, the term was revived by Europeans to denote not only the indigenous Negroes and fairer skinned Berbers of North Africa, but the Arabs as well. (Note: It's not me saying that the Negroes were Moors. I'm simply reporting what those stupid European Christians of the time thought. Please send your protest emails back 14 centuries to these people.) Following the Arab conquest of the Berbers, inter-marriages were common and the two races (Berber and Arab) gradually merged together. Did the Berbers and Arabs do the inter-marriage thing with the dark skinned Negroes also? Probably. Who knows what went on behind closed doors. I wasn't there. History references I've seen up to now only mention Berber and Arab and make no mention of Negro and Arab marriages.

Berber identity these days is linked to the language: many of the North Africans calling themselves Arabs are more of Berber origin than Arab. In many areas, Berber identity is considered negatively, principally because many Berber societies are less developed than what is seen in the cities, where almost all inhabitants see themselves as Arabs.
Encyclopaedia of the Orient.

The term 'Moors' later became a convenient blanket term, to describe the collective Muslim conquerors and rulers in Andalucia between 711 and 1492. This is far too general for my liking. To gain a more accurate perspective into the origins of flamenco, we should try to isolate the main racial elements during the 800 years of Muslim occupation in Spain.

(I hope all this isn't putting you to sleep. There are some juicy bits coming up real soon, so stay with me if you like heroic tales of intrigue, betrayal and bloodshed.)



Events leading up to the Muslim conquest of Spain.
After the sudden death of the Visigothic King Witiza (701-711), a rebellious baron and powerful chieftain called Roderic (also known as Rodrigo), with support from within the palace, seized the throne and proclaimed himself king. The church leaders reluctantly gave their blessing to the coronation, realizing that to do otherwise was to incite further fragmentation of a country already in great turmoil.

Roderic's first task was to travel north to suppress the rebel Basques. He knew that if they broke away from his control, other regions would follow their example and his kingdom would soon collapse. In the meantime, the sons of the late King Wittiza appealed to the Muslims of North Africa for assistance against Roderic. The Arab commander Musa however, had other plans.



(The plot thickens.)

The invasion.
In the year 710, a scouting party of 700 Muslim Berbers led by the Berber leader Tariq ibn Ziyad, entered southern Spain and met with little resistance as they established control over the coastline. 20,000 or so non-Muslims within Spain, who welcomed the newcomers as allies rather than conquerors, aided them willingly. Apart from Roderic's enemies, this number included many persecuted Jews and peasants, who hated all Visigoths.

The Visigoths were so busy fighting amongst themselves, they were slow to realize what was really going on. When word of the invasion was finally sent to Roderic, he quickly returned to the south with a small band of men. They were easily overwhelmed and defeated in an ambush and Roderic was killed by Tariq's men on 19th July 711 (around lunchtime).

800 years of Muslim rule
This initial incursion was followed in 712 by a mainly Arab force of 18,000. The non-Arab portion of this number included more Berbers, Egyptians, Yemenis, Syrians and Persians. After many bloody revolts and power struggles, the Arabs took control in 788. The Berbers, despite their assistance in the successful reconnaissance mission, were soon reminded of their subordinate status in the Arab Empire and were virtually treated as second class citizens.

For the next 300 years or so, despite periods of instability, Andalucia flourished as a center of learning, culture and trade under Arab rule.



In the year 1090, a dynasty of Berbers called the Almoravids seized power from the Arabs. In 1147 an opposing dynasty of Berbers called the Almohads muscled their way into power. In 1237, the Arab controlled Nasrid Sultanate overthrew the decaying Almohad Empire and began building the Alhambra in Granada. By this time, all that was left of 'Moorish' held Spain was the southwest corner of the Peninsular. The Christians in the meantime continued their push southward until they finally moved in on Granada in 1492.

To the Christians, Moor simply meant Muslim barbarian. They didn't care where these 'Moors' came from. Their only interest was to evict every last one of them from Spain. The term 'Moorish' can really only be applied with any accuracy to the unique architecture in the region. Because of the dazzling variety of races unfairly lumped together under the blanket term 'Moors', it is far safer to use the word Islamic when talking about influences, and Muslim when talking about the people.

http://herso.hypermart.net/moors.html

sorry I am supersticious, I noticed this thread had 666 views so I thought I'd change it to 667... don't mind me, go about your discussion...

pejman said:

omg, I've done the same thing before... :O

wellbeyond said:

lovemachine said:

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You do not support him but, you still come this site. Amazing how your lack of interest draws you to this site(LOL)
[This message was edited Thu May 29 14:55:16 PDT 2003 by laurarichardson]

I take some of your points onboard Laura...

In that I doubt any right-thinking person would have any problem with Prince talking about the great aspects of black history. I get the impression that in the education syllabus in the US, for black kids in history class they are learning "black history = slavery". Clearly some balance is called for, and talking about the great accomplishments of African civilisations is an admirable thing no-one should have a problem with.

The problem some people here have though, is the way Prince went about doing it. He didn't have to express such contemptuous opinions of other civilisations, European cultures etc... you can almost taste the venom and bile in some of the comments. Bottom line is that you can certainly tell black kids how great their ancestors were and how their history isn't all slavery and oppression, but it isn't necessary to support those statements by being so dismissive and insulting regarding other peoples and civilisations. I can appreciate Prince's passion and interest in his African ancestry, so surely he should have the same respect and appreciation for other people's history and ancestry.

laurarichardson said:

I come to this site these days because of the people I've met around here. You have noticed that there is a thing called general discussion on this site? I realize that you only post to WORSHIP Prince, but this site is so much more then that.

I didn't bother to join Prince's site because he doesn't really interest me very much these days.



.
[This message was edited Thu May 29 16:54:52 PDT 2003 by lovemachine]

lovemachine said:

The odd thing is that these days there is a select group of people who listen to his music...why would he want to piss them off?
It doesn't make any sense.

applekisses said:

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"To the Christians, Moor simply meant Muslim barbarian. They didn't care where these 'Moors' came from. Their only interest was to evict every last one of them from Spain. The term 'Moorish' can really only be applied with any accuracy to the unique architecture in the region. Because of the dazzling variety of races unfairly lumped together under the blanket term 'Moors', it is far safer to use the word Islamic when talking about influences, and Muslim when talking about the people."
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Well the only problem with your statements is that have a copy of Robinson Crusoe that was published in the 1940's there is a drawing of Moors attacking Robinson Crusoe's ship.

The Moors in the illustration have African features. I have looked at other illustrations, most by European authors and the Moors always have African features.

Instead of everyone being upset about Prince's comments about the Moors why are people not upset about never learning about the Moors or any advanced African civilizations in school. I think the whole point of the poem or song is that Africans had great civilzations and did something in history besides fight amoung themselves and sell slaves to Europeans.

I do not think Prince is saying that the Moors were better than the Europeans. I think he is saying look we did great things to!!! When are we going to get our due credit.

I think anything else that people see in the poem is coming from their opinions about racial issues.
[This message was edited Thu May 29 15:17:13 PDT 2003 by laurarichardson]
[This message was edited Thu May 29 18:47:11 PDT 2003 by laurarichardson]

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Cut him some slack he probaly just started reading books yesterday. He is not a scholar. I did not learn anything about Black history beyond slavery and the civil rights movement until I started checking out books at the libary as a teenager.

I doubt if Prince has had time to go to any libaries over the last twenty years. The new information just has his head spinning. He his tight with Cornel West,so you never know he may get some insight about the things that he just now learning. I give anybody credit that wants to learn new things but realize he may be a little over enthusiatic.

laurarichardson said:

True enough Laura... this is why I really think that (a) we shouldn't be taking this too seriously and (b) we shouldn't be looking to our popstars for historical analysis