I have a question, guys:
.
We know that Prince loved to jam and many of his original multitracks are much longer than the versions he released on his albums. And although some of his best 12" singles contain the entire, original recordings, it can be argued that in many cases he probably didn't even plan on releasing the unedited, full version, it was just one of the working methods he used for recording. Keeping the tape rolling and jamming, and finishing composition at the editing stage.
.
So I'm wondering, can we consider the original, unedited take (what's on the multitrack reel) to be the "full version" of a composition – or should we just view that as raw material, that will only become a "full, final version" after editing out some less interesting parts of it?
.
In other words: IF the Estate would resume releasing vault material, can we accept any edits (like how P edited the songs for the Crystal Ball 3CD set) or should we always expect/demand the entire recordings to be released?
.
I vote for the latter, but perhaps not everyone feels this way.

Kares said:

I have a question, guys:
.
We know that Prince loved to jam and many of his original multitracks are much longer than the versions he released on his albums. And although some of his best 12" singles contain the entire, original recordings, it can be argued that in many cases he probably didn't even plan on releasing the unedited, full version, it was just one of the working methods he used for recording. Keeping the tape rolling and jamming, and finishing composition at the editing stage.
.
So I'm wondering, can we consider the original, unedited take (what's on the multitrack reel) to be the "full version" of a composition – or should we just view that as raw material, that will only become a "full, final version" after editing out some less interesting parts of it?
.
In other words: IF the Estate would resume releasing vault material, can we accept any edits (like how P edited the songs for the Crystal Ball 3CD set) or should we always expect/demand the entire recordings to be released?
.
I vote for the latter, but perhaps not everyone feels this way.

I don't want them to mess with the recordings he left by making 'creative' chioces to 'finish' his work as if someone else than him knows what he would have done or liked.
Usually he had a song finished and mixeed and copied to a tape to listen to the mix in his car and then dunped it in the vault if he was content wnough with it, so those versions shoudl IMO be released and if they want to release a fuller version dfrom his multitrack along with it then also do that unles they try to get creative with it and have some hip producer who's having his 15 minutes buthcwer it to cater to the younger/newer fans who like that dated plastic shit they produce and tarnish Prince name, work and lewgacy at the same time, teh Lonny and Spicer way.

This is an interesting question, Kares. You really got the gears spinning on this one.

Isaac Hayes was notorious for this. I have a few of Isaac Hayes’ multitracks and, for example (I’m going off memory here), the full “Joy” multitrack goes for over 30 minutes. The released album cut is nearly 16 minutes long. While I’m tempted to consider the multitrack version the “full” version of the song, I view it more of a rough assemblage that will be edited down to the “finalized” album version.

When it comes to P, I mostly favor unedited takes. However, I understand that physical media has constraints so some editing might be necessary. If a fully mixed, unedited version of WDC goes for nearly 10 minutes, I want to hear that version. If the option is there, I prefer unedited takes for the most part.

Unedited.

I generally agree with Kares's view on published songs vs unedited takes. I haven't listened to many unedited takes of artists' songs.

>

Of course both can be equally enjoyed by the listener, or for any version to be preferred over the other. I think the listener's taste dictates over such preference and it may vary among tunes.

>

I like the unedited take of "Data Bank," btw. The band interaction at the end is funny and cute. I also enjoy the "not for pop consumption" vibe on that one.

Germanegro said:

I generally agree with Kares's view on published songs vs unedited takes. I haven't listened to many unedited takes of artists' songs.

>

Of course both can be equally enjoyed by the listener, or for any version to be preferred over the other. I think the listener's taste dictates over such preference and it may vary among tunes.

>

I like the unedited take of "Data Bank," btw. The band interaction at the end is funny and cute. I also enjoy the "not for pop consumption" vibe on that one.

For the most part I prefer the 12' versions. For example: the extended version of "let's go crazy" that is heard in the film is THE version as far as I am concerned. It elevates the song to one of my fav Prince tracks. Same with Erotic City and Little Red Corvette, Raspberry Beret, U Got the Look, Gett Off, etc.

-

All of that said, I find that some versions are pop perfection and maybe are more sweet when short. Kiss is crazy extended and I love it. Yet, it takes and absolutely perfect pop song and drags is out.

Kares said:

I have a question, guys:
.
We know that Prince loved to jam and many of his original multitracks are much longer than the versions he released on his albums. And although some of his best 12" singles contain the entire, original recordings, it can be argued that in many cases he probably didn't even plan on releasing the unedited, full version, it was just one of the working methods he used for recording. Keeping the tape rolling and jamming, and finishing composition at the editing stage.
.
So I'm wondering, can we consider the original, unedited take (what's on the multitrack reel) to be the "full version" of a composition – or should we just view that as raw material, that will only become a "full, final version" after editing out some less interesting parts of it?
.
In other words: IF the Estate would resume releasing vault material, can we accept any edits (like how P edited the songs for the Crystal Ball 3CD set) or should we always expect/demand the entire recordings to be released?
.
I vote for the latter, but perhaps not everyone feels this way.

My position was always clear: vault releases aren't meant to be toyed with to become entertainment products, chart, get radio airplay and please the crowds: they're archive material. What's in there is what's in there. What's released should document what's in there.

.

Thus, my position was always that the Estate shouldn't mess with the material in any way, because the Estate isn't Prince. I can tolerate a new mix if no mix was found whatsoever because, obviously, a song can't be released unmixed (for as long as we're being told it's an new mix and why it was made, and preferably made by an engineer that worked with Prince in his lifetime). If a mix only exists on cassette or in a "rough demo" state, then I'd rather have the cassette ripped or the "rough demo" mix than a new mix. When it comes to edits, they're welcome to release an existing edit if they believe it to be superior to a longer cut, but making their own edits: nope.

.

Not that my opinion matters. They'll obviously just do what they want.

blacknote said:

This is an interesting question, Kares. You really got the gears spinning on this one.

Isaac Hayes was notorious for this. I have a few of Isaac Hayes’ multitracks and, for example (I’m going off memory here), the full “Joy” multitrack goes for over 30 minutes. The released album cut is nearly 16 minutes long. While I’m tempted to consider the multitrack version the “full” version of the song, I view it more of a rough assemblage that will be edited down to the “finalized” album version.

When it comes to P, I mostly favor unedited takes. However, I understand that physical media has constraints so some editing might be necessary. If a fully mixed, unedited version of WDC goes for nearly 10 minutes, I want to hear that version. If the option is there, I prefer unedited takes for the most part.

.
Sure, I would want to hear all the full, recorded versions too! But let's not forget that we are not "normal" audience. We're dedicated fans and collectors.

.
And speaking of When Doves Cry: we all know how P himself threw parts out of it to make it really unique and complete. Yes, editing stuff out can make something more complete.
.
Let's ask ourselves: would When Doves Cry still be a hit had P released it in its initial, full version?

databank said:

Kares said:

I have a question, guys:
.
We know that Prince loved to jam and many of his original multitracks are much longer than the versions he released on his albums. And although some of his best 12" singles contain the entire, original recordings, it can be argued that in many cases he probably didn't even plan on releasing the unedited, full version, it was just one of the working methods he used for recording. Keeping the tape rolling and jamming, and finishing composition at the editing stage.
.
So I'm wondering, can we consider the original, unedited take (what's on the multitrack reel) to be the "full version" of a composition – or should we just view that as raw material, that will only become a "full, final version" after editing out some less interesting parts of it?
.
In other words: IF the Estate would resume releasing vault material, can we accept any edits (like how P edited the songs for the Crystal Ball 3CD set) or should we always expect/demand the entire recordings to be released?
.
I vote for the latter, but perhaps not everyone feels this way.

My position was always clear: vault releases aren't meant to be toyed with to become entertainment products, chart, get radio airplay and please the crowds: they're archive material. What's in there is what's in there. What's released should document what's in there.

.

Thus, my position was always that the Estate shouldn't mess with the material in any way, because the Estate isn't Prince. I can tolerate a new mix if no mix was found whatsoever because, obviously, a song can't be released unmixed (for as long as we're being told it's an new mix and why it was made, and preferably made by an engineer that worked with Prince in his lifetime). If a mix only exists on cassette or in a "rough demo" state, then I'd rather have the cassette ripped or the "rough demo" mix than a new mix. When it comes to edits, they're welcome to release an existing edit if they believe it to be superior to a longer cut, but making their own edits: nope.

.

Not that my opinion matters. They'll obviously just do what they want.

.
Of course your opinion matters too. Perhaps only in the long run, but it does.
.
I totally get what you're saying and my opinion isn't far from yours, if it's different at all. Hence my question, and I'm questioning myself too: would we make the right decision (letting our personal craving to hear everything lead our actions) by chosing to release unedited, full takes of songs that were recorded as band jams?

.
Usually I don't care for edits at all, when they are single edits of album versions, for example. There's no question in my mind that I want to hear the full song. However, in many cases (especially the songs that were recorded as band jams) what's on the multitrack is more like raw material, that will only become a finished composition after editing.
.
Let's say there's not even a draft mix or edit found anywhere. So to release that song, it HAS to be mixed first, and mixing already involves a bunch of creative decisions, you can't just push up all the faders and print it as it is, dry – you obviously don't want to make P look stupid. You need to adjust levels and you need to apply filters, effects etc to make the mix enjoyable. So that's already a lot of guesswork about "how would he do it?", even if it's being mixed by the same engineer who tracked it originally. And perhaps that engineer is quite certain that "this or that part would certainly be edited out by P" to make the song more rounded, or better as a composition.

.
Of course, ideally we'd want to get both a rounded, "finished" version and the unedited, full tape as well. But sadly, that is an even less likely scenario until there's a ton of different songs to release to chose from. And another thing is: songs that were tracked mainly by P alone could have parts in them that would most likely have been left out of the mix entirely by him because, less is often more. So would we be doing right by him by just pushing up all the faders all the time even when we'd know that it actually makes the song weaker, not stronger?
.
Oh, and let's not forget how many casual fans thought that Emancipation's songs were too long.

[Edited 1/13/26 8:44am]

Kares said:

databank said:

My position was always clear: vault releases aren't meant to be toyed with to become entertainment products, chart, get radio airplay and please the crowds: they're archive material. What's in there is what's in there. What's released should document what's in there.

.

Thus, my position was always that the Estate shouldn't mess with the material in any way, because the Estate isn't Prince. I can tolerate a new mix if no mix was found whatsoever because, obviously, a song can't be released unmixed (for as long as we're being told it's an new mix and why it was made, and preferably made by an engineer that worked with Prince in his lifetime). If a mix only exists on cassette or in a "rough demo" state, then I'd rather have the cassette ripped or the "rough demo" mix than a new mix. When it comes to edits, they're welcome to release an existing edit if they believe it to be superior to a longer cut, but making their own edits: nope.

.

Not that my opinion matters. They'll obviously just do what they want.

.
Of course your opinion matters too. Perhaps only in the long run, but it does.
.
I totally get what you're saying and my opinion isn't far from yours, if it's different at all. Hence my question, and I'm questioning myself too: would we make the right decision (letting our personal craving to hear everything lead our actions) by chosing to release unedited, full takes of songs that were recorded as band jams?

.
Usually I don't care for edits at all, when they are single edits of album versions, for example. There's no question in my mind that I want to hear the full song. However, in many cases (especially the songs that were recorded as band jams) what's on the multitrack is more like raw material, that will only become a finished composition after editing.
.
Let's say there's not even a draft mix or edit found anywhere. So to release that song, it HAS to be mixed first, and mixing already involves a bunch of creative decisions, you can't just push up all the faders and print it as it is, dry – you obviously don't want to make P look stupid. You need to adjust levels and you need to apply filters, effects etc to make the mix enjoyable. So that's already a lot of guesswork about "how would he do it?", even if it's being mixed by the same engineer who tracked it originally. And perhaps that engineer is quite certain that "this or that part would certainly be edited out by P" to make the song more rounded, or better as a composition.

.
Of course, ideally we'd want to get both a rounded, "finished" version and the unedited, full tape as well. But sadly, that is an even less likely scenario until there's a ton of different songs to release to chose from. And another thing is: songs that were tracked mainly by P alone could have parts in them that would most likely have been left out of the mix entirely by him because, less is often more. So would we be doing right by him by just pushing up all the faders all the time even when we'd know that it actually makes the song weaker, not stronger?
.
Oh, and let's not forget how many casual fans thought that Emancipation's songs were too long.

[Edited 1/13/26 8:44am]

I would love to hear for example the In a large room with no light Jam before he made it into the song, so things like jams or rehearsals where a song a was created would also be great to release as is, but I have a feeling jams and soundschecks/rehearsal are something we'll never get in our liftime from teh Estate.

Kares said:

.
Sure, I would want to hear all the full, recorded versions too! But let's not forget that we are not "normal" audience. We're dedicated fans and collectors.

.
And speaking of When Doves Cry: we all know how P himself threw parts out of it to make it really unique and complete. Yes, editing stuff out can make something more complete.
.
Let's ask ourselves: would When Doves Cry still be a hit had P released it in its initial, full version?

Oh, and let's not forget how many casual fans thought that Emancipation's songs were too long.

I don't think vault releases should aim at "normal" audiences. There's already a whole discography for them (what Prince released in his lifetime), it's quite gigantic as it is, and Prince's success proves it's efficient at pleasing the crowds.

I don't think archive releases by any artists (alive or dead) ever realistically aimed at seducing casual fans or new audiences anyway. Archives are leftovers, things that usually weren't deemed good or commercial enough to be released at the time. They're for the initiated, either hardcore fans or, at least, people that are truly curious about the artists they like's history.

Kares said:

databank said:

My position was always clear: vault releases aren't meant to be toyed with to become entertainment products, chart, get radio airplay and please the crowds: they're archive material. What's in there is what's in there. What's released should document what's in there.

.

Thus, my position was always that the Estate shouldn't mess with the material in any way, because the Estate isn't Prince. I can tolerate a new mix if no mix was found whatsoever because, obviously, a song can't be released unmixed (for as long as we're being told it's an new mix and why it was made, and preferably made by an engineer that worked with Prince in his lifetime). If a mix only exists on cassette or in a "rough demo" state, then I'd rather have the cassette ripped or the "rough demo" mix than a new mix. When it comes to edits, they're welcome to release an existing edit if they believe it to be superior to a longer cut, but making their own edits: nope.

.

Not that my opinion matters. They'll obviously just do what they want.

.
Of course your opinion matters too. Perhaps only in the long run, but it does.
.
I totally get what you're saying and my opinion isn't far from yours, if it's different at all. Hence my question, and I'm questioning myself too: would we make the right decision (letting our personal craving to hear everything lead our actions) by chosing to release unedited, full takes of songs that were recorded as band jams?

.
Usually I don't care for edits at all, when they are single edits of album versions, for example. There's no question in my mind that I want to hear the full song. However, in many cases (especially the songs that were recorded as band jams) what's on the multitrack is more like raw material, that will only become a finished composition after editing.
.
Let's say there's not even a draft mix or edit found anywhere. So to release that song, it HAS to be mixed first, and mixing already involves a bunch of creative decisions, you can't just push up all the faders and print it as it is, dry – you obviously don't want to make P look stupid. You need to adjust levels and you need to apply filters, effects etc to make the mix enjoyable. So that's already a lot of guesswork about "how would he do it?", even if it's being mixed by the same engineer who tracked it originally. And perhaps that engineer is quite certain that "this or that part would certainly be edited out by P" to make the song more rounded, or better as a composition.

.
Of course, ideally we'd want to get both a rounded, "finished" version and the unedited, full tape as well. But sadly, that is an even less likely scenario until there's a ton of different songs to release to chose from. And another thing is: songs that were tracked mainly by P alone could have parts in them that would most likely have been left out of the mix entirely by him because, less is often more. So would we be doing right by him by just pushing up all the faders all the time even when we'd know that it actually makes the song weaker, not stronger?
.
Oh, and let's not forget how many casual fans thought that Emancipation's songs were too long.

[Edited 1/13/26 8:44am]

I guess in the case of stuff taken off jams/practice rehearsals (vs studio takes), I could cope with selected excerpts if it really made sense in the context of a particular project. I'd rather get the whole jam/rehearsal, but then it becomes a record in itself, and OK, maybe in the context of a compilation of selected moments it could work, IDK.

And yes, mixing indeed implies artistic choices, yet is absolutely necessary in some cases. Editing can hardly be absolutely necessary IMHO.

databank said:

Kares said:

.
Of course your opinion matters too. Perhaps only in the long run, but it does.
.
I totally get what you're saying and my opinion isn't far from yours, if it's different at all. Hence my question, and I'm questioning myself too: would we make the right decision (letting our personal craving to hear everything lead our actions) by chosing to release unedited, full takes of songs that were recorded as band jams?

.
Usually I don't care for edits at all, when they are single edits of album versions, for example. There's no question in my mind that I want to hear the full song. However, in many cases (especially the songs that were recorded as band jams) what's on the multitrack is more like raw material, that will only become a finished composition after editing.
.
Let's say there's not even a draft mix or edit found anywhere. So to release that song, it HAS to be mixed first, and mixing already involves a bunch of creative decisions, you can't just push up all the faders and print it as it is, dry – you obviously don't want to make P look stupid. You need to adjust levels and you need to apply filters, effects etc to make the mix enjoyable. So that's already a lot of guesswork about "how would he do it?", even if it's being mixed by the same engineer who tracked it originally. And perhaps that engineer is quite certain that "this or that part would certainly be edited out by P" to make the song more rounded, or better as a composition.

.
Of course, ideally we'd want to get both a rounded, "finished" version and the unedited, full tape as well. But sadly, that is an even less likely scenario until there's a ton of different songs to release to chose from. And another thing is: songs that were tracked mainly by P alone could have parts in them that would most likely have been left out of the mix entirely by him because, less is often more. So would we be doing right by him by just pushing up all the faders all the time even when we'd know that it actually makes the song weaker, not stronger?
.
Oh, and let's not forget how many casual fans thought that Emancipation's songs were too long.

[Edited 1/13/26 8:44am]

I guess in the case of stuff taken off jams/practice rehearsals (vs studio takes), I could cope with selected excerpts if it really made sense in the context of a particular project. I'd rather get the whole jam/rehearsal, but then it becomes a record in itself, and OK, maybe in the context of a compilation of selected moments it could work, IDK.

And yes, mixing indeed implies artistic choices, yet is absolutely necessary in some cases. Editing can hardly be absolutely necessary IMHO.

.
But an important part of mixing is a form of editing already, you just do it with faders and mute buttons, instead of a blade (even if it's digital). You might have instruments playing through the whole track but during mixing a decision is made to mute them during all the verses, for example. That's editing too.

databank said:

Kares said:

.
Sure, I would want to hear all the full, recorded versions too! But let's not forget that we are not "normal" audience. We're dedicated fans and collectors.

.
And speaking of When Doves Cry: we all know how P himself threw parts out of it to make it really unique and complete. Yes, editing stuff out can make something more complete.
.
Let's ask ourselves: would When Doves Cry still be a hit had P released it in its initial, full version?

Oh, and let's not forget how many casual fans thought that Emancipation's songs were too long.

I don't think vault releases should aim at "normal" audiences. There's already a whole discography for them (what Prince released in his lifetime), it's quite gigantic as it is, and Prince's success proves it's efficient at pleasing the crowds.

I don't think archive releases by any artists (alive or dead) ever realistically aimed at seducing casual fans or new audiences anyway. Archives are leftovers, things that usually weren't deemed good or commercial enough to be released at the time. They're for the initiated, either hardcore fans or, at least, people that are truly curious about the artists they like's history.

.
We seem to disagree on this one.
In my view, one of the things that make P really special is that a huge chunk of his "leftovers" aren't really leftovers, they are finished masters that do deserve to be treated as any other new release, not as some archival scraping of the bottom of the barrel. I know many fans are extremely sceptical about the potential number of real gems that could be in the vault, I'm positive that there's a great number of those that can be presented on the market as proper, new albums, and they will be able to touch new generations.
Prince have expressed his desire more than once to become a composer with one of the largest catalog and that even if it won't be him, someone WILL eventually release his vault material. He has also deliberately put aside a lot of recordings intended to become inheritance for his children.
So we can absolutely be sure that he viewed his vault (or at least a significant part of it) as works worthy of release at some point in the future – not as throwaway leftovers, sketches etc.

Kares said:

databank said:

I guess in the case of stuff taken off jams/practice rehearsals (vs studio takes), I could cope with selected excerpts if it really made sense in the context of a particular project. I'd rather get the whole jam/rehearsal, but then it becomes a record in itself, and OK, maybe in the context of a compilation of selected moments it could work, IDK.

And yes, mixing indeed implies artistic choices, yet is absolutely necessary in some cases. Editing can hardly be absolutely necessary IMHO.

.
But an important part of mixing is a form of editing already, you just do it with faders and mute buttons, instead of a blade (even if it's digital). You might have instruments playing through the whole track but during mixing a decision is made to mute them during all the verses, for example. That's editing too.

True. I honestly don't know what to do in a case like this. Assumedly, if an instrument was recorded throughout and no mix exists, I would assume it was meant to be featured throughout (until decided otherwise by P, but he being gone...), but I'm no ingineer so you would know about those things better than I do.

Kares said:

databank said:

I don't think vault releases should aim at "normal" audiences. There's already a whole discography for them (what Prince released in his lifetime), it's quite gigantic as it is, and Prince's success proves it's efficient at pleasing the crowds.

I don't think archive releases by any artists (alive or dead) ever realistically aimed at seducing casual fans or new audiences anyway. Archives are leftovers, things that usually weren't deemed good or commercial enough to be released at the time. They're for the initiated, either hardcore fans or, at least, people that are truly curious about the artists they like's history.

.
We seem to disagree on this one.
In my view, one of the things that make P really special is that a huge chunk of his "leftovers" aren't really leftovers, they are finished masters that do deserve to be treated as any other new release, not as some archival scraping of the bottom of the barrel. I know many fans are extremely sceptical about the potential number of real gems that could be in the vault, I'm positive that there's a great number of those that can be presented on the market as proper, new albums, and they will be able to touch new generations.
Prince have expressed his desire more than once to become a composer with one of the largest catalog and that even if it won't be him, someone WILL eventually release his vault material. He has also deliberately put aside a lot of recordings intended to become inheritance for his children.
So we can absolutely be sure that he viewed his vault (or at least a significant part of it) as works worthy of release at some point in the future – not as throwaway leftovers, sketches etc.

I agree with you on the quality of (some of) the material if bootlegs and existing posthumous releases are any indication. And I agree that Prince considered some vault material worthy of future release (he apparently would have went on with CB '98 style projects had he not been stopped by WB). My angle isn't there, but from a pure market perspective.

.

Prince's music is far remote from what charts today, let alone tomorrow. There won't ever be a new "Kiss" or a new "When Doves Cry" even with gems like "All My Dreams" or "The Grand Progression". So either way, in his case, conquering new audiences means conquering people who are already rather curious about past music. Now they may try and have a young, hip artist remix and overdub an unreleased Prince song to make it sound charts-friendly, it's been done before with other artists, but that's a whole different approach to what we're discussing.

.

And while I have no data to support this (and random algorythmic suggestions aside), I would assume people who want to get into, say, Joni Mitchell, will first try her regular albums or greatest hits albums catalogue before exploring her Archives series. I may be wrong, but it just seems to make sense. That's how most people I know usually approached new artists at least in the LP/CD days. Just like you'd buy the regular albums before you'd go and buy bootlegs.

.

And then there's the more "philosophical" argument, which of course is a personal one: while an artists' "contemporary" catalogue aims (among other things) at selling records/streams and pleasing audiences, a defunct artists' vault catalogue aims at documenting their work for posterity and add layers of understanding to their artistic journey. It's a niche market for a niche audience, which is fine. If you're new to Prince, there are already 39 Prince studio albums and a bunch of greatest hits albums to go through before you need to listen to a vault release IMHO.

databank said:

Kares said:

.
We seem to disagree on this one.
In my view, one of the things that make P really special is that a huge chunk of his "leftovers" aren't really leftovers, they are finished masters that do deserve to be treated as any other new release, not as some archival scraping of the bottom of the barrel. I know many fans are extremely sceptical about the potential number of real gems that could be in the vault, I'm positive that there's a great number of those that can be presented on the market as proper, new albums, and they will be able to touch new generations.
Prince have expressed his desire more than once to become a composer with one of the largest catalog and that even if it won't be him, someone WILL eventually release his vault material. He has also deliberately put aside a lot of recordings intended to become inheritance for his children.
So we can absolutely be sure that he viewed his vault (or at least a significant part of it) as works worthy of release at some point in the future – not as throwaway leftovers, sketches etc.

I agree with you on the quality of (some of) the material if bootlegs and existing posthumous releases are any indication. And I agree that Prince considered some vault material worthy of future release (he apparently would have went on with CB '98 style projects had he not been stopped by WB). My angle isn't there, but from a pure market perspective.

.

Prince's music is far remote from what charts today, let alone tomorrow. There won't ever be a new "Kiss" or a new "When Doves Cry" even with gems like "All My Dreams" or "The Grand Progression". So either way, in his case, conquering new audiences means conquering people who are already rather curious about past music. Now they may try and have a young, hip artist remix and overdub an unreleased Prince song to make it sound charts-friendly, it's been done before with other artists, but that's a whole different approach to what we're discussing.

.

And while I have no data to support this (and random algorythmic suggestions aside), I would assume people who want to get into, say, Joni Mitchell, will first try her regular albums or greatest hits albums catalogue before exploring her Archives series. I may be wrong, but it just seems to make sense. That's how most people I know usually approached new artists at least in the LP/CD days. Just like you'd buy the regular albums before you'd go and buy bootlegs.

.

And then there's the more "philosophical" argument, which of course is a personal one: while an artists' "contemporary" catalogue aims (among other things) at selling records/streams and pleasing audiences, a defunct artists' vault catalogue aims at documenting their work for posterity and add layers of understanding to their artistic journey. It's a niche market for a niche audience, which is fine. If you're new to Prince, there are already 39 Prince studio albums and a bunch of greatest hits albums to go through before you need to listen to a vault release IMHO.

.
But vault material of other artists is viewed only as additional layers for their main body of work, because other artists didn't leave behind such quantities of quality material. Prince is quite unique in this regard too. (OK, Zappa left a comparable vault but he was never mainstream anyway.)
.
And people's "entry point" into a new artist's catalog can be very different, especially with P who played so many different stuff. A kid these days could connect to Art Official Age and certain future releases, more than to the bulk of the main catalog.
.
Kids don't listen to their parent's music, that's true, but styles do come back periodically, like during the blues revival, for example. Prince will come back into the mainstream too at some point, but that can only happen if his legacy is properly maintained and ready and available to be rediscovered any time. This is one of the main responsibilities of the Estate, in my opinion.
.

[Edited 1/13/26 17:18pm]

.

[Edited 1/13/26 17:15pm]

Kares said:

Kares said:

databank said:

I agree with you on the quality of (some of) the material if bootlegs and existing posthumous releases are any indication. And I agree that Prince considered some vault material worthy of future release (he apparently would have went on with CB '98 style projects had he not been stopped by WB). My angle isn't there, but from a pure market perspective.

.

Prince's music is far remote from what charts today, let alone tomorrow. There won't ever be a new "Kiss" or a new "When Doves Cry" even with gems like "All My Dreams" or "The Grand Progression". So either way, in his case, conquering new audiences means conquering people who are already rather curious about past music. Now they may try and have a young, hip artist remix and overdub an unreleased Prince song to make it sound charts-friendly, it's been done before with other artists, but that's a whole different approach to what we're discussing.

.

And while I have no data to support this (and random algorythmic suggestions aside), I would assume people who want to get into, say, Joni Mitchell, will first try her regular albums or greatest hits albums catalogue before exploring her Archives series. I may be wrong, but it just seems to make sense. That's how most people I know usually approached new artists at least in the LP/CD days. Just like you'd buy the regular albums before you'd go and buy bootlegs.

.

And then there's the more "philosophical" argument, which of course is a personal one: while an artists' "contemporary" catalogue aims (among other things) at selling records/streams and pleasing audiences, a defunct artists' vault catalogue aims at documenting their work for posterity and add layers of understanding to their artistic journey. It's a niche market for a niche audience, which is fine. If you're new to Prince, there are already 39 Prince studio albums and a bunch of greatest hits albums to go through before you need to listen to a vault release IMHO.

.
But vault material of other artists is viewed only as additional layers for their main body of work, because other artists didn't leave behind such quantities of quality material. Prince is quite unique in this regard too. (OK, Zappa left a comparable vault but he was never mainstream anyway.)
.
And people's "entry point" into a new artist's catalog can be very different, especially with P who played so many different stuff. A kid these days could connect to Art Official Age and certain future releases, more than to the bulk of the main catalog.
.
Kids don't listen to their parent's music, that's true, but styles do come back periodically, like during the blues revival, for example. Prince will come back into the mainstream too at some point, but that can only happen if his legacy is properly maintained and ready and available to be rediscovered any time. This is one of the main responsibilities of the Estate, in my opinion.
.

[Edited 1/13/26 17:18pm]

You may be right, IDK, as I said my statements were assumptions and I don't have statistical data to prove anything.

.

Either way, and keeping in mind that you're talking studio material mostly, I would say there's more than enough material to find a way to market some of it to casual/new listeners without "polishing" anything. From what we've learned from the SDEs, most material from at lest 1986 onwards seems to exist in useable mixes. There's lots of unfinished material, lots of finished, but not necessarily very accessible material, lots of finished and accessible material, and countless mixes and edits for many songs. So then maybe instead of "polishing", maybe it's more a matter of "curating" well.

.

The SDEs outtakes CDs were "everything goes" mixed bags of everything and, mostly, do not make for pleasant and/or cohesive listening experiences.

Take D&P SDE, for instance. You have "band sounding" material that sounds like the album and those "one-man band" new jack swing songs (mostly those for other artists).

You have alternate versions of released songs and entirely unreleased songs.

You have material that could have been released as such at the time (such as My Tender Heart or I Pledge Allegiance 2 Your Love) and lo-fi rough demos that Prince would never have released as such and that can only possibly be of interest to the hardcore (such as Standing At The Altar, Alice Through The Looking Glass or Horny Pony...).

Instead of putting all of it together in rough chronological order, they could have come-up with three or four cohesive, thematic 40/45 minutes long albums, some "polished" enough to rival the "official" 39 albums and be crowd pleasers, some mostly aimed at the most curious/hardcore listeners only. The same could be said about the SOTT and 1999 SDEs.

.

In that sense, I think Prince left us very smart guidelines of how outtakes could be intelligently assembled with Chaos & Disorder and The Vault... Old Friends 4 Sale, so that's what I'd mostly aim to do if I was in charge: try and curate albums.

.

And when it comes to practice sesions/rehearsals/soundchecks, I'd look for something like Bandcamp or a new NPGMC, because no one on Earth will care for those but the initiated anyway. I could possibly consider competently curating some rehearsals/soundchecks if, say, there's 5 takes of the same song on one, though. IDK if that would be necessary, but perhaps. But let one hour-long jams be one hour, because long jams can be fascinating to hear even if repetitive at times.

.

BTW, when I said no one cares about my opinion, besides the obvious (it's true), I was also referring to the fact that He who walks behind the rows said the people in charge don't read the Org and couldn't care less about what a small bunch of old timers like us think (and I tend to believe him).

databank said:

Kares said:

.
But vault material of other artists is viewed only as additional layers for their main body of work, because other artists didn't leave behind such quantities of quality material. Prince is quite unique in this regard too. (OK, Zappa left a comparable vault but he was never mainstream anyway.)
.
And people's "entry point" into a new artist's catalog can be very different, especially with P who played so many different stuff. A kid these days could connect to Art Official Age and certain future releases, more than to the bulk of the main catalog.
.
Kids don't listen to their parent's music, that's true, but styles do come back periodically, like during the blues revival, for example. Prince will come back into the mainstream too at some point, but that can only happen if his legacy is properly maintained and ready and available to be rediscovered any time. This is one of the main responsibilities of the Estate, in my opinion.
.

[Edited 1/13/26 17:18pm]

You may be right, IDK, as I said my statements were assumptions and I don't have statistical data to prove anything.

.

Either way, and keeping in mind that you're talking studio material mostly, I would say there's more than enough material to find a way to market some of it to casual/new listeners without "polishing" anything. From what we've learned from the SDEs, most material from at lest 1986 onwards seems to exist in useable mixes. There's lots of unfinished material, lots of finished, but not necessarily very accessible material, lots of finished and accessible material, and countless mixes and edits for many songs. So then maybe instead of "polishing", maybe it's more a matter of "curating" well.

.

The SDEs outtakes CDs were "everything goes" mixed bags of everything and, mostly, do not make for pleasant and/or cohesive listening experiences.

Take D&P SDE, for instance. You have "band sounding" material that sounds like the album and those "one-man band" new jack swing songs (mostly those for other artists).

You have alternate versions of released songs and entirely unreleased songs.

You have material that could have been released as such at the time (such as My Tender Heart or I Pledge Allegiance 2 Your Love) and lo-fi rough demos that Prince would never have released as such and that can only possibly be of interest to the hardcore (such as Standing At The Altar, Alice Through The Looking Glass or Horny Pony...).

Instead of putting all of it together in rough chronological order, they could have come-up with three or four cohesive, thematic 40/45 minutes long albums, some "polished" enough to rival the "official" 39 albums and be crowd pleasers, some mostly aimed at the most curious/hardcore listeners only. The same could be said about the SOTT and 1999 SDEs.

.

In that sense, I think Prince left us very smart guidelines of how outtakes could be intelligently assembled with Chaos & Disorder and The Vault... Old Friends 4 Sale, so that's what I'd mostly aim to do if I was in charge: try and curate albums.

.

And when it comes to practice sesions/rehearsals/soundchecks, I'd look for something like Bandcamp or a new NPGMC, because no one on Earth will care for those but the initiated anyway. I could possibly consider competently curating some rehearsals/soundchecks if, say, there's 5 takes of the same song on one, though. IDK if that would be necessary, but perhaps. But let one hour-long jams be one hour, because long jams can be fascinating to hear even if repetitive at times.

.

BTW, when I said no one cares about my opinion, besides the obvious (it's true), I was also referring to the fact that He who walks behind the rows said the people in charge don't read the Org and couldn't care less about what a small bunch of old timers like us think (and I tend to believe him).

.

1000% agree.

SDEs were the wrong concept, or let me put it this way: the concept of SDE boxes is good, but the curation was wrong. Vault discs of SDEs should be filled with demos, alternate and rehearsal versions and outtakes that are directly tied to the main album – not with just about anything they could find from that year.
.

1000% agree that unreleased material should be compiled and released as proper albums. They deserve the chance to shine on their own, instead of being buried on the 15.disc of an unrelated SDE.

.

1000% agree that rehearsals/soundchecks/etc should be distributed through a dedicated server/club online.

.

At last year's celebration, both McMillan and Spicer encouraged the fans to speak up and repeatedly promised that our input will matter.

I guess the way I look at this in a very simplified way is…

Would I rather have a radio edit or the full version that the recording artist deemed as "the finished song" before turning it over to an editor for the necessary versioning?

The radio edits on all the SDEs / DEs are pointless to me. Like "here's a version to fit a particular format" or to play to people's lack of an attention span. They have historical value, but it's as much of an afterthought to me than a finished song, assuming the "final" version wasn't already under 4 minutes.

Unless those making edits of unreleased material were connected to the original recording (like Hans Martin-Buff if we were to get some Emanicipation – Rave era outtakes), I'd rather hear what's existing than a cobbled together version made by an outsider.

Kares said:

databank said:

You may be right, IDK, as I said my statements were assumptions and I don't have statistical data to prove anything.

.

Either way, and keeping in mind that you're talking studio material mostly, I would say there's more than enough material to find a way to market some of it to casual/new listeners without "polishing" anything. From what we've learned from the SDEs, most material from at lest 1986 onwards seems to exist in useable mixes. There's lots of unfinished material, lots of finished, but not necessarily very accessible material, lots of finished and accessible material, and countless mixes and edits for many songs. So then maybe instead of "polishing", maybe it's more a matter of "curating" well.

.

The SDEs outtakes CDs were "everything goes" mixed bags of everything and, mostly, do not make for pleasant and/or cohesive listening experiences.

Take D&P SDE, for instance. You have "band sounding" material that sounds like the album and those "one-man band" new jack swing songs (mostly those for other artists).

You have alternate versions of released songs and entirely unreleased songs.

You have material that could have been released as such at the time (such as My Tender Heart or I Pledge Allegiance 2 Your Love) and lo-fi rough demos that Prince would never have released as such and that can only possibly be of interest to the hardcore (such as Standing At The Altar, Alice Through The Looking Glass or Horny Pony...).

Instead of putting all of it together in rough chronological order, they could have come-up with three or four cohesive, thematic 40/45 minutes long albums, some "polished" enough to rival the "official" 39 albums and be crowd pleasers, some mostly aimed at the most curious/hardcore listeners only. The same could be said about the SOTT and 1999 SDEs.

.

In that sense, I think Prince left us very smart guidelines of how outtakes could be intelligently assembled with Chaos & Disorder and The Vault... Old Friends 4 Sale, so that's what I'd mostly aim to do if I was in charge: try and curate albums.

.

And when it comes to practice sesions/rehearsals/soundchecks, I'd look for something like Bandcamp or a new NPGMC, because no one on Earth will care for those but the initiated anyway. I could possibly consider competently curating some rehearsals/soundchecks if, say, there's 5 takes of the same song on one, though. IDK if that would be necessary, but perhaps. But let one hour-long jams be one hour, because long jams can be fascinating to hear even if repetitive at times.

.

BTW, when I said no one cares about my opinion, besides the obvious (it's true), I was also referring to the fact that He who walks behind the rows said the people in charge don't read the Org and couldn't care less about what a small bunch of old timers like us think (and I tend to believe him).

.

1000% agree.

SDEs were the wrong concept, or let me put it this way: the concept of SDE boxes is good, but the curation was wrong. Vault discs of SDEs should be filled with demos, alternate and rehearsal versions and outtakes that are directly tied to the main album – not with just about anything they could find from that year.
.

1000% agree that unreleased material should be compiled and released as proper albums. They deserve the chance to shine on their own, instead of being buried on the 15.disc of an unrelated SDE.

.

1000% agree that rehearsals/soundchecks/etc should be distributed through a dedicated server/club online.

.

At last year's celebration, both McMillan and Spicer encouraged the fans to speak up and repeatedly promised that our input will matter.

I don't know about that. For my money I liked having new unreleased songs on my SDE's. I wouldn't mind a disc of outtakes and jams in addition to that but certainly not instead of it. Now, it would be fine if they released the unreleased songs separately from the SDE too as you suggested. However, I was fine with the SDE format as it was.

To answer the original question I prefer extended versions of songs and I don't want non-Prince edits at all....

[Edited 1/14/26 1:47am]

Just as I wouldn't appreciate Ben or somebody going back and editing my posts

[Edited 1/14/26 1:49am]

peedub said:

Kares said:

Kids don't listen to their parent's music, that's true, but styles do come back periodically, like during the blues revival, for example. Prince will come back into the mainstream too at some point, but that can only happen if his legacy is properly maintained and ready and available to be rediscovered any time. This is one of the main responsibilities of the Estate, in my opinion.
.

[Edited 1/13/26 17:18pm]

That's a generalization. I grew up listening (and still listen) to my mother's Beatles and Simon and Garfunkel and Linda ronstadt 45s and my dad's led Zeppelin and pink floyd and funkadelic LPs and my grandfather's Benny Goodman and Glenn Miller radio programs.

Same here. My father listened to Miles Davis, Keith Jarrett, etc. before me. What my father listened to at home certainly influenced what I listened to later. We're still having discussions about music on a regular basis. I even managed to bring him to Montreux in 2013 to see Prince (1st concert).

Am I in a minority? Certainly. I guess most children reject what their parents listen to when they're teenagers. But they might come back to it at a later time.

It's all about being curious.

Anyway, just a minor point, I guess, but still, yes, it's probably a generalization.

Kares/Databank: I'm aware that I tend to always agree with you, but once again, I pretty much agree with everything you're saying. Your posts are a breath of fresh air amidst all the noise and nonsense. That's why your opinion matter.

Something that came to mind while reading your messages: the fans' reaction to "Welcome 2 America", the album. I now realize it's pretty underwhelming. Sound issues aside, I'm glad it was released and I'm of the opinion that many more recordings like it should be released (from all eras). But listening to / reading even hardcore fans' opinions of "Welcome 2 America" is sometimes a bit depressing. So I guess my point is that archival releases shouldn't and probably can't be motivated by commercial success alone. Yes, they should not be a commercial loss. But like Bert (and Databank?) likes to repeat: some labels manage to release archival releases for minor artists all the time, so there's no rational reason why it wouldn't be possible for an artist like Prince. You just have to be passionate enough to work on small projects that don't bring much money.

[Edited 1/14/26 8:10am]

olb99 said:

peedub said:

Kares said: That's a generalization. I grew up listening (and still listen) to my mother's Beatles and Simon and Garfunkel and Linda ronstadt 45s and my dad's led Zeppelin and pink floyd and funkadelic LPs and my grandfather's Benny Goodman and Glenn Miller radio programs.

Same here. My father listened to Miles Davis, Keith Jarrett, etc. before me. What my father listened to at home certainly influenced what I listened to later. We're still having discussions about music on a regular basis. I even managed to bring him to Montreux in 2013 to see Prince (1st concert).

Am I in a minority? Certainly. I guess most children reject what their parents listen to when they're teenagers. But they might come back to it at a later time.

It's all about being curious.

Anyway, just a minor point, I guess, but still, yes, it's probably a generalization.

.

Of course I generalised because generally it is true that kids primarily listen to their own generation's music, not their parents'.

olb99 said:

Kares/Databank: I'm aware that I tend to always agree with you, but once again, I pretty much agree with everything you're saying. Your posts are a breath of fresh air amidst all the noise and nonsense. That's why your opinion matter.

Something that came to mind while reading your messages: the fans' reaction to "Welcome 2 America", the album. I now realize it's pretty underwhelming. Sound issues aside, I'm glad it was released and I'm of the opinion that many more recordings like it should be released (from all eras). But listening to / reading even hardcore fans' opinions of "Welcome 2 America" is sometimes a bit depressing. So I guess my point is that archival releases shouldn't and probably can't be motivated by commercial success alone. Yes, they should not be a commercial loss. But like Bert (and Databank?) likes to repeat: some labels manage to release archival releases for minor artists all the time, so there's no rational reason why it wouldn't be possible for an artist like Prince. You just have to be passionate enough to work on small projects that don't bring much money.

[Edited 1/14/26 8:10am]

I don't remember the fans' reaction to W2A TBH, but I think in general, Prince fans weren't particularly happy with what Prince was doing around the time this was recorded (2010), so I'm not surprised if the reaction wasn't overunthusiastic. However, I seem to remember professional reviews being pretty good overall, weren't they?

.

Either way this is yet something else because this was (or at least was supposed to be, since they couldn't help tinker with the tracklist ) a whole album left as such by Prince. IDK how many of those exist besides the very few we're aware of (probably not too many, but who knows...), but such completed (or, more accurately, in-progress, since we'll never know whether Prince would have tinkered with them a little more had he decided to release them) albums should of course absolutely be released exactly as they were found.

tomds said:

Didn't he usually create longer versions afterwards once he decided which song could be a single or a b side ? He just added a couple of minutes extra afterwards to create the 12 inch. So it wasn't a long version at first. Like Kiss for example.

YEs, also like Little Red Corvette, Let's Work, Mountains 12" versions etc.
But there is also the longer album version of Little Red Corvette that;s doesn't fade out that should be released, but now still only gatekeepers get to hear these things and I don't thikn the Estate has any interest in revidsiting the already released SDEs.

JorisE73 said:

tomds said:

Didn't he usually create longer versions afterwards once he decided which song could be a single or a b side ? He just added a couple of minutes extra afterwards to create the 12 inch. So it wasn't a long version at first. Like Kiss for example.

YEs, also like Little Red Corvette, Let's Work, Mountains 12" versions etc.
But there is also the longer album version of Little Red Corvette that;s doesn't fade out that should be released, but now still only gatekeepers get to hear these things and I don't thikn the Estate has any interest in revidsiting the already released SDEs.

.
I'm sure these were the exception though, not the rule. Of course he has put extra work into the 12" singles (and remix EPs) he deemed important, but that's only about a couple of dozen songs – as opposed to (possibly) a thousand that were recorded longer and then were cut back for an album configuration.