fredmagnus said:

This wouldn't make any money and sadly that's the only thing they're interested in. They don't give a shit about the legacy.

All this could "make money" if marketed properly.

Not 'Purple Rain' money like these clowns only care about, but it could make money.

Prince vocal of "Nasty Girl" would get some buzz.

WhisperingDandelions said:

fredmagnus said:

This wouldn't make any money and sadly that's the only thing they're interested in. They don't give a shit about the legacy.

All this could "make money" if marketed properly.

Not 'Purple Rain' money like these clowns only care about, but it could make money.

Prince vocal of "Nasty Girl" would get some buzz.

Which makes me realize: there must be a Prince version of Vibrator, too

databank said:

PennyPurple said:

I love the first original!

The problem that remains IMHO is that part of the audience just cares about being entertained without caring much about how the product was conceived, whether it's authentic, etc. Same with fanmixes and AI mixes: as long as it's enjoyable, who cares whare it comes from and how it was made.

I realize that it's perfectly normal and I understand where y'all come from, but I still believe it's healthy to voice a different opinion/perspective like scififilmnerd did.

Where do "ya'll" (we) come from then? Un-schooled?

You acutally say "those who just want to be entertained..." I don't completely agree.

As if we don't care about how a song was conceived, the authentication of it, whatever.

Not quite fair to say "we know better" against the so called "entertained."

I count myself with the likes of Originals I, and I'm well aware of the 'made' results. And certainly would love a second edition, frankensteined or not. We have nothing to say about what the Estate decides, so every post-release is damn more than welcome.

-

We honestly even don't know exactly what Prince himself fucked up in the studio, or had it done by others. Prince for one - and it was mentioned many times by Susan Rogers - didn't care all that much for quality, even not for the finished product. He asked his engeneers to do the mix, and often used that. OK, his choice. He was known for recording 'super fast'. It was his ultimate goal, instead of thriving for perfection. He had a good ear, and could hear every mistake, but that's something else.

What do we all really know about the 'real' authenticity or perfect conceived songs he made 100 % all by himself? Sure, he made them, his choices, again.

We can have an andless debate about this.

For example; his last couple of albums, how much (by his choice) frankensteined involvement on his tunes were done by Josh for example? Think about it. TMBGITW song? The decisions during the name change, and the WB involvements, etc. OK, still his choices. But I hope you know what I mean.

-

All sorts of fans, all sorts of ears, opinions, enjoyments, likes. Still all fans. And we need all of 'm.

Though I agree to have healthy voices and different opinions.

But best not to create or divide Prince camps.

Or am I getting too hard here and missing your point?

Vannormal said:

databank said:

The problem that remains IMHO is that part of the audience just cares about being entertained without caring much about how the product was conceived, whether it's authentic, etc. Same with fanmixes and AI mixes: as long as it's enjoyable, who cares whare it comes from and how it was made.

I realize that it's perfectly normal and I understand where y'all come from, but I still believe it's healthy to voice a different opinion/perspective like scififilmnerd did.

Where do "ya'll" (we) come from then? Un-schooled?

You acutally say "those who just want to be entertained..." I don't completely agree.

As if we don't care about how a song was conceived, the authentication of it, whatever.

Not quite fair to say "we know better" against the so called "entertained."

IMHO where "y'all" come from is y'all have jobs, families, mortgages, etc. Your time is precious. Arts is to relax and y'all need to enjoy what you consume, because y'all don't spend your whole days listening to music (or watching movies, etc.). I have friends who take responsibility for this and it's OK.

+ arts not y'all's speciality, not by trade nor training.

+ we live in a culture that generally teaches us a "like/dislike" dychotomy about everything AND that everyone has to be an expert in everything, all of which is very detrimental to arts appreciation IMHO.

It's OK, no offense meant. I myself am rather "unschooled", as you say, in many things. I don't understand the first thing about economics, math, physics or DIY home improvement (among many other things).

-

We honestly even don't know exactly what Prince himself fucked up in the studio, or had it done by others. Prince for one - and it was mentioned many times by Susan Rogers - didn't care all that much for quality, even not for the finished product. He asked his engeneers to do the mix, and often used that. OK, his choice. He was known for recording 'super fast'. It was his ultimate goal, instead of thriving for perfection. He had a good ear, and could hear every mistake, but that's something else.

What do we all really know about the 'real' authenticity or perfect conceived songs he made 100 % all by himself? Sure, he made them, his choices, again.

We can have an andless debate about this.

For example; his last couple of albums, how much (by his choice) frankensteined involvement on his tunes were done by Josh for example? Think about it. TMBGITW song? The decisions during the name change, and the WB involvements, etc. OK, still his choices. But I hope you know what I mean.

You're missing the whole point of what "frankensteining" and "authenticity" mean entirely. Prince couldn't possibly have frankensteined himself, whether by letting engineers mix his work or other musicians/producers finish it.

-

All sorts of fans, all sorts of ears, opinions, enjoyments, likes. Still all fans. And we need all of 'm.

Though I agree to have healthy voices and different opinions.

But best not to create or divide Prince camps.

Or am I getting too hard here and missing your point?

In the end it's not about "dividing", it's about standing for something I guess. We live in a world where arts stand for little but being "content" to consume, enjoy and forget. Industry execs openly claim their purpose is to "generate content" in order to "entertain". They often mess with artists, living or dead, and their work in the name of crowdpleasing. That shit is important to some of us, which is OK I guess since we're not exactly the majority. No offense meant.

I understand what you mean. No hard feelings, really.
Of course I appreciate the in-depth knowledge of diehards, we really do need them, and to wake over them. But the general, the less informed, should better not be trivialised.
Of course, the ‘mediocre’ can be spurred of some extra knowledge and interpretation, if desired.
I agree that the artworthiness of just about everything is under pressure. But wasn't that always the case? Right now it is more visible and audible, for sure. It's all much more 'in our face'.
We now live in a magnified image culture, and naturally there are infinitely more opinions, and self-made experts as a result. It's easy to see through them i believe. Anyways...
Like you, I too am super uneducated in all areas other than my own limited niche knowledge.

I love to hear die-hard fans go deep into all things Prince. And then I form my own opinion, like we all do.

Everything made in the arts aims to find an audience (and often generate money). Naturally, you get all forms of opinions, or none at all. It is of all times i think. You can't get everyone on board with the depth of everything.

Ever read art books by contemporary artists? I assure you, I have to devour a few every week, and you read quite a lot of ‘crap’ and ‘shit’ that should pass for in-depth studies.

After 38 years, I do know how to separate, even in the elitist approach to art.

The older you get, the broader your view becomes, and the better you also understand that there is much more than just the right of truth of the very few. It is something like The Golden Mean; the truth just always lays right off the middle and is always changing. Fortunately. If you understand what I mean.

WhisperingDandelions said:

fredmagnus said:

This wouldn't make any money and sadly that's the only thing they're interested in. They don't give a shit about the legacy.

All this could "make money" if marketed properly.

Not 'Purple Rain' money like these clowns only care about, but it could make money.

Prince vocal of "Nasty Girl" would get some buzz.

Hope he'd change the lyrics to nasty boy at least. I know he wrote these songs for women but it's kinda weird hearing him refer to himself as a girl (jealous girl) or talking about wearing a dress (I hear your voice), or even "I need a man".

The debate about posthumous mixes of very dubious quality (aka "Frankenstein mixes") reminds me of a recentish discussion about generative AI I had either here on the Org or elsewhere, I don't remember.

This was a thought experiment about an LLM model that would be trained on everything Prince ever did and would be able to generate brand new, original "Prince" songs. It would be so good that nobody would be able to tell it's not an obscure studio outtake found somewhere in the vault. The vocals would sound exactly like Prince. The guitar would sound exactly like Prince. Everything would sound exactly like Prince.

My question was: would you be able to really enjoy such a song?

My personal answer: no, I would not. I think. For me to enjoy a Prince song, I need to know it was recorded, at least in part, by Prince. I need to know it came from a human being, with emotions, with a whole life behind him/her, with struggles and successes, etc.

I was kind of baffled to read that some people wouldn't care (i.e. "A song is a song, just enjoy it.").

(We're soon going to experience some exciting and weird times, but this is another debate...).

[Edited 1/15/25 13:58pm]

olb99 said:

The debate about posthumous mixes of very dubious quality (aka "Frankenstein mixes") reminds me of a recentish discussion about generative AI I had either here on the Org or elsewhere, I don't remember.

This was a thought experiment about an LLM model that would be trained on everything Prince ever did and would be able to generate brand new, original "Prince" songs. It would be so good that nobody would be able to tell it's not an obscure studio outtake found somewhere in the vault. The vocals would sound exactly like Prince. The guitar would sound exactly like Prince. Everything would sound exactly like Prince.

My question was: would you be able to really enjoy such a song?

My personal answer: no, I would not. I think. For me to enjoy a Prince song, I need to know it was recorded, at least in part, by Prince. I need to know it came from a human being, with emotions, with a whole life behind him/her, with struggles and successes, etc.

I was kind of baffled to read that some people wouldn't care (i.e. "A song is a song, just enjoy it.").

(We're soon going to experience some exciting and weird times, but this is another debate...).

[Edited 1/15/25 13:58pm]

this will be a thing: a service that will know what you like and create new songs that you will like more than the real ones.

I attended Celebration 2024, where on the VIP ticket they played some tracks from the vault

(FRICTION being the stand out track IMHO - how Prince never released it, is up there with Extraloveable...)

anyway, I got chatting later with Charles Spicer (amongst other things, a producer) who highlighted to me when I was gushing how awesome 'Friction' sounded and how super awesome a Jamie Starr album would be, that the older tracks as they stand won't stand up to our modern play back machines and headphones - so they are not ready to 'just release' they need mix cleaning up when they are transferred to tape - this will take time and money.

An 'Orginals 2' would be great but some older songs will need this cleaning up.

Also, way better marketing - I can' think of a single Estate release that has received decent marketing, let alone good marketing since 2016 onwards. They have been targeted to the converted, not a broader mainstream audience, which is why the releases tend to be 'one week and gone' on the charts.

Back on topic - I would love to listen to the original P version of Miss Thang. TC Ellis is so not giving the Song what it needs. With P's rap maybe it could be something great. His guitar solo sure is!

paisleyparkgirl said:

WhisperingDandelions said:

All this could "make money" if marketed properly.

Not 'Purple Rain' money like these clowns only care about, but it could make money.

Prince vocal of "Nasty Girl" would get some buzz.

Hope he'd change the lyrics to nasty boy at least. I know he wrote these songs for women but it's kinda weird hearing him refer to himself as a girl (jealous girl) or talking about wearing a dress (I hear your voice), or even "I need a man".

They're demo guide vocals that he never intended anyone to experience other than through the proteges vocals.

It's why the whole "gave songs away" thing is kind of a fallacy, many of these were clearly conceived as "given away" from the very outset if he intentionally sang the opposite gender in his demos.

Even the implications of it being an "Original", nah, more like a demo, and so many are missing ornamentation he clearly intended (and saw to fruition) for the "true" versions (the true "Prince" versions, even though the majority of his fanbase will always consider the scratch demos with missing overdubs to be the "the true Prince versions").

ALSO maybe he'd flip it like he did in the "Nasty Girl" remix (maybe that one was based on a true story).

ALSO wasn't D&P basically 'Originals 2'? It's like a full LP worth of "Originals" on that one.

paisleyparkgirl said:

WhisperingDandelions said:

All this could "make money" if marketed properly.

Not 'Purple Rain' money like these clowns only care about, but it could make money.

Prince vocal of "Nasty Girl" would get some buzz.

Hope he'd change the lyrics to nasty boy at least. I know he wrote these songs for women but it's kinda weird hearing him refer to himself as a girl (jealous girl) or talking about wearing a dress (I hear your voice), or even "I need a man".

oof. so much to unpack here.

but you have heard of "Camille" right? you know that Prince played with gender and sexuality and identity all the time, right?

he was portrayed naked on a white lily with the stamen curved up like a big purple dickhead.

and you fret about him wearing a dress?

[Edited 1/16/25 21:43pm]

olb99 said:

The debate about posthumous mixes of very dubious quality (aka "Frankenstein mixes") reminds me of a recentish discussion about generative AI I had either here on the Org or elsewhere, I don't remember.

This was a thought experiment about an LLM model that would be trained on everything Prince ever did and would be able to generate brand new, original "Prince" songs. It would be so good that nobody would be able to tell it's not an obscure studio outtake found somewhere in the vault. The vocals would sound exactly like Prince. The guitar would sound exactly like Prince. Everything would sound exactly like Prince.

My question was: would you be able to really enjoy such a song?

My personal answer: no, I would not. I think. For me to enjoy a Prince song, I need to know it was recorded, at least in part, by Prince. I need to know it came from a human being, with emotions, with a whole life behind him/her, with struggles and successes, etc.

I was kind of baffled to read that some people wouldn't care (i.e. "A song is a song, just enjoy it.").

(We're soon going to experience some exciting and weird times, but this is another debate...).

[Edited 1/15/25 13:58pm]

the instruments were played by him. the vocal was sung by him, and sometimes pieces of older mixes or previous takes were repurposed by him into new versions or mixes. it's all him.

i don't care if after his death somebody did this work for him, laying a vocal over a track and treating the vocal or the performance so that it might sound better or punchier. it's all him.

i seriously don't understand the so-called purists and their pedantic need for some sort of made-up "authenticity."

so i'll be thrilled with an "originals 2" or whatever they end up doing with those vault tracks when somebody pulls their head out of their asses and releases them.

and PS: any "tone" implied by my reply is in answer to the various condescending vibes of previous answers. no offense intended, much.

[Edited 1/16/25 21:46pm]

paisleyparkgirl said:

WhisperingDandelions said:

All this could "make money" if marketed properly.

Not 'Purple Rain' money like these clowns only care about, but it could make money.

Prince vocal of "Nasty Girl" would get some buzz.

Hope he'd change the lyrics to nasty boy at least. I know he wrote these songs for women but it's kinda weird hearing him refer to himself as a girl (jealous girl) or talking about wearing a dress (I hear your voice), or even "I need a man".

This illustrates the problem I addressed above so well.

He's a thing that exists that's a little challenging. It is what it is.

Listener feels a little uncomfortable. It's too weird. Listener wishes that it would be smoothed around the edges to make it more user-friendly and easier to digest. Hell, could we please turn "If I Was Your Girlfriend" into "If I was Your Best Friend"?

The Estate could actually use an AI or some Prince imitator to replace the "wrong" words.

People happy. Prince music easy to digest. Cash flowing in

.

Nothing personal against you so please don't take it as an attack. You actually just made my point for me. Part of the audience just wants to be entertained.

.

Besides, I actually think it's so cool to have Prince sing "gay/transgender" lyrics like Dear Michaelangelo or Jealous Girl. He was an icon of "feminine masculinity" in his days. He and Madonna were gay icons in the 80s. It's part of his legacy.

olb99 said:

The debate about posthumous mixes of very dubious quality (aka "Frankenstein mixes") reminds me of a recentish discussion about generative AI I had either here on the Org or elsewhere, I don't remember.

This was a thought experiment about an LLM model that would be trained on everything Prince ever did and would be able to generate brand new, original "Prince" songs. It would be so good that nobody would be able to tell it's not an obscure studio outtake found somewhere in the vault. The vocals would sound exactly like Prince. The guitar would sound exactly like Prince. Everything would sound exactly like Prince.

My question was: would you be able to really enjoy such a song?

My personal answer: no, I would not. I think. For me to enjoy a Prince song, I need to know it was recorded, at least in part, by Prince. I need to know it came from a human being, with emotions, with a whole life behind him/her, with struggles and successes, etc.

I was kind of baffled to read that some people wouldn't care (i.e. "A song is a song, just enjoy it.").

(We're soon going to experience some exciting and weird times, but this is another debate...).

[Edited 1/15/25 13:58pm]

I've actually asked myself how I would react to a piece of art that was 100% AI-generated, whether it's music or a movie or a novel or comic book.

I won't know until I stumble unto one that I really like. Sooner or later it'll happen. I'm very curious about how it'll play out and whether I'd integrate those into my life. Obviously I should say I won't, but I can't tell TBH.

That's different though than existing works by actual artists being messed up by either AI or people.

I know many songs made by humans that tried to emulate Prince (or other artists) and it didn't stop me from enjoying them, in the sense that it was still something new. Now of course no matter how hard they tried, those artists couldn't actually pass for Prince (well, we know some people here were fooled by some songs, but generally speaking, no). There was always something from the actual artist that made it different. If it sounded like a Prince song to the point that one couldn't tell if they didn't know, how would I react? IDK.

WhisperingDandelions said:

paisleyparkgirl said:

Hope he'd change the lyrics to nasty boy at least. I know he wrote these songs for women but it's kinda weird hearing him refer to himself as a girl (jealous girl) or talking about wearing a dress (I hear your voice), or even "I need a man".

They're demo guide vocals that he never intended anyone to experience other than through the proteges vocals.

It's why the whole "gave songs away" thing is kind of a fallacy, many of these were clearly conceived as "given away" from the very outset if he intentionally sang the opposite gender in his demos.

Even the implications of it being an "Original", nah, more like a demo, and so many are missing ornamentation he clearly intended (and saw to fruition) for the "true" versions (the true "Prince" versions, even though the majority of his fanbase will always consider the scratch demos with missing overdubs to be the "the true Prince versions").

Exactly, thanks for pointing this out.

I remember reading fans explaining that a song is only a "Prince" song if he sings on it. Hell, I even read on this very board that Xpectation and NEWS aren't "real" albums because... they're instrumental

Funnily enough, we never hear people saying TRC isn't a real Prince album because he doesn't play the drums on it, or asking for a version with Prince on drums instead of John being released.

It's again a misunderstanding that has to do with audiences consuming arts without asking themselves how it's being made. Artists do act as a musical directors and have various people play various parts, including vocals. Many artists actually do release albums under their own name that only feature guest vocalists.

That said, it's nice to hear Prince's demos for those songs, it's always interesting to hear his work in progress. But the "originals" are indeed the songs that got released as they were released, particularly with the side projects where Prince controlled the whole process from composition to post-production.

shakalakaboom said:

olb99 said:

The debate about posthumous mixes of very dubious quality (aka "Frankenstein mixes") reminds me of a recentish discussion about generative AI I had either here on the Org or elsewhere, I don't remember.

This was a thought experiment about an LLM model that would be trained on everything Prince ever did and would be able to generate brand new, original "Prince" songs. It would be so good that nobody would be able to tell it's not an obscure studio outtake found somewhere in the vault. The vocals would sound exactly like Prince. The guitar would sound exactly like Prince. Everything would sound exactly like Prince.

My question was: would you be able to really enjoy such a song?

My personal answer: no, I would not. I think. For me to enjoy a Prince song, I need to know it was recorded, at least in part, by Prince. I need to know it came from a human being, with emotions, with a whole life behind him/her, with struggles and successes, etc.

I was kind of baffled to read that some people wouldn't care (i.e. "A song is a song, just enjoy it.").

(We're soon going to experience some exciting and weird times, but this is another debate...).

[Edited 1/15/25 13:58pm]

the instruments were played by him. the vocal was sung by him, and sometimes pieces of older mixes or previous takes were repurposed by him into new versions or mixes. it's all him.

i don't care if after his death somebody did this work for him, laying a vocal over a track and treating the vocal or the performance so that it might sound better or punchier. it's all him.

i seriously don't understand the so-called purists and their pedantic need for some sort of made-up "authenticity."

so i'll be thrilled with an "originals 2" or whatever they end up doing with those vault tracks when somebody pulls their head out of their asses and releases them.

and PS: any "tone" implied by my reply is in answer to the various condescending vibes of previous answers. no offense intended, much.

[Edited 1/16/25 21:46pm]

I read ya, sadly, it's extremely hard not to sound condescending when interacting on social media, as opposed to IRL.

.

Honest question: why would you want his vault material to "sound better or punchier"?

Did you really get any substantial benefit out of Baby You're A Trip, Nothing Compares 2 U or Holly Rock being overdubbed?

Wasn't the material good enough for you as it was?