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Reply #30 posted 01/08/25 6:25pm

nayroo2002

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paisleyparkgirl said:

The Jill Jones story is what ruined the doc.

OH?
So you have seen the full nine hour film???

"Whatever skin we're in
we all need 2 b friends"
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Reply #31 posted 01/08/25 9:15pm

v10letblues

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paisleyparkgirl said:

v10letblues said:

While I want to see the Netfix doc as the director inteneded, on bit from the director himself has gave me mixed feelings about it.He has mentioned that he didn't quite know where to take the narrative, which is hard to believe anyone having trouble with that, and that he settled on theJills jones, Wendy Lisa arch as the hook becasue of how compelling it was for the narrative. Now, I mean I want to see all that, but not as a gimmick or arch or becasue it helped him settle on something compelling for him to drive a narrative. But none of us have seen it and it is quite long so who knows, but i hope he didn't use her as a lazy part of the narration becasue he was stuck.

[Edited 1/8/25 9:47am]

Wendy and Lisa ? I don't think they said anything they hadn't seen before. The Jill Jones story is what ruined the doc.

This was acording to a review of the doc from a couple of folks who were reviewing it. They mentioin that the director couldnt find a center the documentary ultil he spoke to Wendy, Lisa and Jill. That he would build the heart of it against their compelling stories of working with Prince. It's supposed to be a tragic telling of a lonely man who cared about nothing but his craft. Questlove himself said after watching it he cried for days and and needed help from his psychiatrist and did not want to end up like Prince.

Everyone who has seen it has praised it, and the director is known for quality work, so it is what it is and I cannot wait to see it myself. We know no one is perfect and if we want truth and the reality of it, then we should expect and not be surprised to see it.

[Edited 1/8/25 21:17pm]

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Reply #32 posted 01/08/25 11:16pm

WhisperingDand
elions

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nayroo2002 said:

paisleyparkgirl said:

The Jill Jones story is what ruined the doc.

OH?
So you have seen the full nine hour film???

If a film has been shelved from release it can viably be considered "ruined" without that being a criticism or castigation on the quality of the content itself.


Since we're asking questions,

How is there even fervent interest in this from the types here in the first place?


Those teenyboppers on reddit and Twitter, them I get, this is their first rodeo, they're full of purple piss and raspberry vinegar, pinining on deluded hopes that a prominent link "trending" on the main page of the Netflix app is going to give them validation from their classrooms and parent/peer groups of MJ stans.


But you people should be a little more seasoned.


Like I mean there's a niche for this, sure, but as far Prince fandom pecking order priorities goes I put lame Netflix doc a couple notches below the Kim Berry Hairstylist book. It's probably... equivalent to the Toure book, at best. Worth months over discussing over potential SDE (or better yet, a Dylan-esque 'Bootleg Series')? uh, no.


And my fav of the outside entity stuff was 'Possessed: The Rise & Fall of Prince', so don't even hit me with this "OH WE ALL HAVE FLAWS," that has nothing to do with anything.

[Edited 1/8/25 23:22pm]

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Reply #33 posted 01/09/25 8:03am

Kares

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paisleyparkgirl said:

v10letblues said:

While I want to see the Netfix doc as the director inteneded, on bit from the director himself has gave me mixed feelings about it.He has mentioned that he didn't quite know where to take the narrative, which is hard to believe anyone having trouble with that, and that he settled on theJills jones, Wendy Lisa arch as the hook becasue of how compelling it was for the narrative. Now, I mean I want to see all that, but not as a gimmick or arch or becasue it helped him settle on something compelling for him to drive a narrative. But none of us have seen it and it is quite long so who knows, but i hope he didn't use her as a lazy part of the narration becasue he was stuck.

[Edited 1/8/25 9:47am]

Wendy and Lisa ? I don't think they said anything they hadn't seen before. The Jill Jones story is what ruined the doc.

.
That can't be true. Cutting one interview would've been an easily acceptable compromise for both parties, so there must be a lot more or totally different issues between them.

Friends don't let friends clap on 1 and 3.

The Paisley Park Vault spreadsheet: https://goo.gl/zzWHrU
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Reply #34 posted 01/09/25 10:31am

v10letblues

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WhisperingDandelions said:



nayroo2002 said:




paisleyparkgirl said:


The Jill Jones story is what ruined the doc.



OH?
So you have seen the full nine hour film???




If a film has been shelved from release it can viably be considered "ruined" without that being a criticism or castigation on the quality of the content itself.



Since we're asking questions,


How is there even fervent interest in this from the types here in the first place?



Those teenyboppers on reddit and Twitter, them I get, this is their first rodeo, they're full of purple piss and raspberry vinegar, pinining on deluded hopes that a prominent link "trending" on the main page of the Netflix app is going to give them validation from their classrooms and parent/peer groups of MJ stans.



But you people should be a little more seasoned.



Like I mean there's a niche for this, sure, but as far Prince fandom pecking order priorities goes I put lame Netflix doc a couple notches below the Kim Berry Hairstylist book. It's probably... equivalent to the Toure book, at best. Worth months over discussing over potential SDE (or better yet, a Dylan-esque 'Bootleg Series')? uh, no.



And my fav of the outside entity stuff was 'Possessed: The Rise & Fall of Prince', so don't even hit me with this "OH WE ALL HAVE FLAWS," that has nothing to do with anything.

[Edited 1/8/25 23:22pm]



There has yet to be a half way decent Prince Doc and this one is getting a lot of praise. And yes we all have flaws. Not your cup of tea? Well don’t see it when it is released. This is one of hopefully more Prince docs to come. Perhaps we will get a corny one you can get behind later.
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Reply #35 posted 01/09/25 10:35am

mclihah2

v10letblues said:

It's supposed to be a tragic telling of a lonely man who cared about nothing but his craft.


You know, this kind of reflects my gut feeling about Prince after he died. But it's never surfaced until I read what you wrote there...

As much as we all loved him / his music / or both ... (my wife informed me that I was depressed for quite some time after he passed)... there was something itching in my mind

- He died all alone in Paisley Park, to be discovered the following day by his staff.

- There are those pictures of his lonely bedroom with pills and makeup
- Two failed marriages, no children
- Yet he couldn't stop touring, and he must have loved the adulation and experience from the shows he did

If anything, he must have loved his audiences, and his audiences loved him.- But an audience is an amorphous conglomeration of people, not a single person, to connect to...

It's hard to say this.... as much as I idolised Prince for all these years....before and after his death.... There was something sad and lonely about him at the end.

bheart bheart bheart bheart

[Edited 1/9/25 10:37am]

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Reply #36 posted 01/09/25 11:37am

olb99

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Kares said:

paisleyparkgirl said:

Wendy and Lisa ? I don't think they said anything they hadn't seen before. The Jill Jones story is what ruined the doc.

.
That can't be true. Cutting one interview would've been an easily acceptable compromise for both parties, so there must be a lot more or totally different issues between them.


If a major part of the documentary was built around the idea/narrative of a "musical genius but lonely and imperfect human being", I guess the Jill Jones part was not the only thing that would need to be removed.

[Edited 1/9/25 11:37am]

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Reply #37 posted 01/09/25 1:17pm

ghostof82

I don't think people fully appreciate what we had living amongst us. When's the next Michelangelo or Da Vinci or Mozart coming around? Not for centuries, if ever. Prince was up there. I don't think even Prince could really fathom Prince out. A Netflix doc? Give me a break.
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Reply #38 posted 01/09/25 1:23pm

olb99

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It's always easier to long for what we don't have (anymore) than appreciate what we have. Or something to that effect. biggrin The Stoics had this all figured out 2300 years ago.

[Edited 1/9/25 13:25pm]

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Reply #39 posted 01/09/25 2:54pm

paisleyparkgir
l

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v10letblues said:

paisleyparkgirl said:

Wendy and Lisa ? I don't think they said anything they hadn't seen before. The Jill Jones story is what ruined the doc.

This was acording to a review of the doc from a couple of folks who were reviewing it. They mentioin that the director couldnt find a center the documentary ultil he spoke to Wendy, Lisa and Jill. That he would build the heart of it against their compelling stories of working with Prince. It's supposed to be a tragic telling of a lonely man who cared about nothing but his craft. Questlove himself said after watching it he cried for days and and needed help from his psychiatrist and did not want to end up like Prince.

Everyone who has seen it has praised it, and the director is known for quality work, so it is what it is and I cannot wait to see it myself. We know no one is perfect and if we want truth and the reality of it, then we should expect and not be surprised to see it.

[Edited 1/8/25 21:17pm]

I think a lot of fans don't want Prince to be seen as some sort of tragic figure but hey, considering his early circumstances and how he passed, it's inevitable. It's heartbreaking but you can't hide some things.

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Reply #40 posted 01/09/25 2:56pm

paisleyparkgir
l

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WhisperingDandelions said:

nayroo2002 said:

OH?
So you have seen the full nine hour film???

If a film has been shelved from release it can viably be considered "ruined" without that being a criticism or castigation on the quality of the content itself.


Since we're asking questions,

How is there even fervent interest in this from the types here in the first place?


Those teenyboppers on reddit and Twitter, them I get, this is their first rodeo, they're full of purple piss and raspberry vinegar, pinining on deluded hopes that a prominent link "trending" on the main page of the Netflix app is going to give them validation from their classrooms and parent/peer groups of MJ stans.


But you people should be a little more seasoned.


Like I mean there's a niche for this, sure, but as far Prince fandom pecking order priorities goes I put lame Netflix doc a couple notches below the Kim Berry Hairstylist book. It's probably... equivalent to the Toure book, at best. Worth months over discussing over potential SDE (or better yet, a Dylan-esque 'Bootleg Series')? uh, no.


And my fav of the outside entity stuff was 'Possessed: The Rise & Fall of Prince', so don't even hit me with this "OH WE ALL HAVE FLAWS," that has nothing to do with anything.

[Edited 1/8/25 23:22pm]

I belong to neither group (neither a teenybopper nor seasoned) I'm in the middle but as far as the interest goes, I believed the "seasoned" ones are annoyed that this Netflix deal is holding up things deemed important to the seasoned fandom like future SDE's...you know...the long awaited PARADE SUPERDELUXE.

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Reply #41 posted 01/09/25 3:59pm

v10letblues

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paisleyparkgirl said:

v10letblues said:

This was acording to a review of the doc from a couple of folks who were reviewing it. They mentioin that the director couldnt find a center the documentary ultil he spoke to Wendy, Lisa and Jill. That he would build the heart of it against their compelling stories of working with Prince. It's supposed to be a tragic telling of a lonely man who cared about nothing but his craft. Questlove himself said after watching it he cried for days and and needed help from his psychiatrist and did not want to end up like Prince.

Everyone who has seen it has praised it, and the director is known for quality work, so it is what it is and I cannot wait to see it myself. We know no one is perfect and if we want truth and the reality of it, then we should expect and not be surprised to see it.

[Edited 1/8/25 21:17pm]

I think a lot of fans don't want Prince to be seen as some sort of tragic figure but hey, considering his early circumstances and how he passed, it's inevitable. It's heartbreaking but you can't hide some things.

Yep, the reviews I read come to the same conclusion.

[Edited 1/9/25 16:00pm]

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Reply #42 posted 01/09/25 4:12pm

v10letblues

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I tink another point of contention general audiences may have for the doc may be about Prince "grooming" young underage girls like Mayte and Anna Fantastic. Though supposedly keeping things non sexual until they turned to legal age when he was already in his 30's. The doc does not shy away from pointing these things out.

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Reply #43 posted 01/09/25 4:15pm

olb99

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v10letblues said:

I tink another point of contention general audiences may have for the doc may be about Prince "grooming" young underage girls like Mayte and Anna Fantastic. Though supposedly keeping things non sexual until they turned to legal age when he was already in his 30's. The doc does not shy away from pointing these things out.


Yeah, we had a whole thread about this, which was suspended 2 months ago.

There are things you are not supposed to talk about... smile

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Reply #44 posted 01/09/25 4:54pm

v10letblues

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olb99 said:

v10letblues said:

I tink another point of contention general audiences may have for the doc may be about Prince "grooming" young underage girls like Mayte and Anna Fantastic. Though supposedly keeping things non sexual until they turned to legal age when he was already in his 30's. The doc does not shy away from pointing these things out.


Yeah, we had a whole thread about this, which was suspended 2 months ago.

There are things you are not supposed to talk about... smile

Well yeah. What ruined this fansite and drove everyone away was the terrible egocentric moderation by people who have no bussiness being tasked with moderation..

[Edited 1/9/25 16:55pm]

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Reply #45 posted 01/09/25 5:32pm

Gooddoctor23

v10letblues said:

I tink another point of contention general audiences may have for the doc may be about Prince "grooming" young underage girls like Mayte and Anna Fantastic. Though supposedly keeping things non sexual until they turned to legal age when he was already in his 30's. The doc does not shy away from pointing these things out.

Bingo. Trying 2 hide from the truth rarely works.

Graycap23 was ME!
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Reply #46 posted 01/09/25 7:22pm

nayroo2002

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v10letblues said:

the terrible egocentric moderation by people who have no bussiness being tasked with moderation..

[Edited 1/9/25 16:55pm]

BUMP!!!!!!!!!!!


Back on topic:
The doc should have started with "The Truth" in the soundtrack...

"Whatever skin we're in
we all need 2 b friends"
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Reply #47 posted 01/10/25 12:09am

v10letblues

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nayroo2002 said:

v10letblues said:

the terrible egocentric moderation by people who have no bussiness being tasked with moderation..

[Edited 1/9/25 16:55pm]

BUMP!!!!!!!!!!!


Back on topic:
The doc should have started with "The Truth" in the soundtrack...

.. but "the truth" is subjective.Hopefully this is the start that opens the door for more detailed discussions of the talent and life of Prince. Hopefully this gets a lot of things out of the way so we may get a better, more well rounder perspective. No doc is going to be "definitive" or even should. The Estate and bootlickers have nothing to worry about. There will be more, this is only the begining.

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Reply #48 posted 01/10/25 7:48am

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

WhisperingDandelions said:



nayroo2002 said:




paisleyparkgirl said:


The Jill Jones story is what ruined the doc.



OH?
So you have seen the full nine hour film???




If a film has been shelved from release it can viably be considered "ruined" without that being a criticism or castigation on the quality of the content itself.



Since we're asking questions,


How is there even fervent interest in this from the types here in the first place?



Those teenyboppers on reddit and Twitter, them I get, this is their first rodeo, they're full of purple piss and raspberry vinegar, pinining on deluded hopes that a prominent link "trending" on the main page of the Netflix app is going to give them validation from their classrooms and parent/peer groups of MJ stans.



But you people should be a little more seasoned.



Like I mean there's a niche for this, sure, but as far Prince fandom pecking order priorities goes I put lame Netflix doc a couple notches below the Kim Berry Hairstylist book. It's probably... equivalent to the Toure book, at best. Worth months over discussing over potential SDE (or better yet, a Dylan-esque 'Bootleg Series')? uh, no.



And my fav of the outside entity stuff was 'Possessed: The Rise & Fall of Prince', so don't even hit me with this "OH WE ALL HAVE FLAWS," that has nothing to do with anything.

[Edited 1/8/25 23:22pm]



Doesnt matter about it being on Netflix (though there have been good music docs on Netflix like the dylan tolling thunder film) so much as prince finally getting the longform documentary treatment as dylan, stones, Beatles, etc. Now whether those artists would allow for controversies like in this Edelman documentary, prob not, so this could be seen as daring in a good way or just poor judgement. Obv the estate have seen it as the latter.
[Edited 1/10/25 7:50am]
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Reply #49 posted 01/10/25 11:05am

bizzie

mclihah2 said:


- Yet he couldn't stop touring

.

This nonsense again. Go to Princevault and look up his tours and live performances. There are long stretches of him doing none.

.

- The Parade tour was a dozen shows in Europe and a handful in Japan and a dozen shows in the USA.

.

- The Purple Rain tour had barely started and he was already sick of it.

.

- His only tour in 2012 consisted of half a dozen concerts.

.

- His only tour in 2014 consisted of a dozen concerts.

.

- He didn't tour in 2015.

.

- His 2003 "world tour" consists of 8 (EIGHT) concerts, and that's the only tour he did that year.

.

- No tour in 2005. Or in 2008. Or in 2009.

.

I didn't even go through all the decades and already I found all these examples.

.

For a comparison: Bob Dylan has done more than 70 concerts per year since 1988 (except for 2020 and 2021, but that's when there was a worldwide virus): https://www.setlist.fm/st...6adb8.html .

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Reply #50 posted 01/10/25 3:59pm

fishwillbite

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WhisperingDandelions said:

this is their first rodeo, they're full of purple piss and raspberry vinegar


Hee, love it smile

PIPS! Eurgh...
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Reply #51 posted 01/10/25 10:46pm

FrankieCoco1

bizzie said:



mclihah2 said:



- Yet he couldn't stop touring



.


This nonsense again. Go to Princevault and look up his tours and live performances. There are long stretches of him doing none.


.


- The Parade tour was a dozen shows in Europe and a handful in Japan and a dozen shows in the USA.


.


- The Purple Rain tour had barely started and he was already sick of it.


.


- His only tour in 2012 consisted of half a dozen concerts.


.


- His only tour in 2014 consisted of a dozen concerts.


.


- He didn't tour in 2015.


.


- His 2003 "world tour" consists of 8 (EIGHT) concerts, and that's the only tour he did that year.


.


- No tour in 2005. Or in 2008. Or in 2009.


.


I didn't even go through all the decades and already I found all these examples.


.


For a comparison: Bob Dylan has done more than 70 concerts per year since 1988 (except for 2020 and 2021, but that's when there was a worldwide virus): https://www.setlist.fm/st...6adb8.html .



Yep. Still annoyed about the cancelled Sign O’ The Times Wembley show in 1987 - the Americans didn’t even get a tour of that because he’d moved on. There’s a whole section on Prince Vault about cancelled/rescheduled shows - https://princevault.com/i...d_Concerts

Edit: @mclihah2 you said, “There was something sad and lonely about him at the end.” I agree and that’s likely true at quite a few points during his life too, hence his immersion in producing quite a bit of music
[Edited 1/10/25 22:54pm]
There may or may not be something coming!
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Reply #52 posted 01/11/25 6:11am

Mindbells9

avatar

bizzie said:



mclihah2 said:



- Yet he couldn't stop touring



.


This nonsense again. Go to Princevault and look up his tours and live performances. There are long stretches of him doing none.


.


- The Parade tour was a dozen shows in Europe and a handful in Japan and a dozen shows in the USA.


.


- The Purple Rain tour had barely started and he was already sick of it.


.


- His only tour in 2012 consisted of half a dozen concerts.


.


- His only tour in 2014 consisted of a dozen concerts.


.


- He didn't tour in 2015.


.


- His 2003 "world tour" consists of 8 (EIGHT) concerts, and that's the only tour he did that year.


.


- No tour in 2005. Or in 2008. Or in 2009.


.


I didn't even go through all the decades and already I found all these examples.


.


For a comparison: Bob Dylan has done more than 70 concerts per year since 1988 (except for 2020 and 2021, but that's when there was a worldwide virus): https://www.setlist.fm/st...6adb8.html .



He definitely toured in 2015. I saw him for the last time in April 2015 in Detroit.
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Reply #53 posted 01/11/25 8:14am

olb99

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Tours: https://princevault.com/i...ur_History

All concerts: https://princevault.com/index.php?title=All_Concerts

That's 2032 performances over the course of 38 years, so 53 performances a year on average, with "only":

- 10 performances in 1979

- 13 performances in 1989

- 15 performances in 1991

- 25 performances in 1996

- 17 performances in 2003

- 16 performances in 2005

- 18 performances in 2008

- 26 performances in 2009

- 21 performances in 2012


Granted, this includes all performances, including one-off performances, but I'm not sure that's relevant. When mclihah2 wrote "Yet he couldn't stop touring, and he must have loved the adulation and experience from the shows he did", I think the meaning was "Yet he couldn't stop playing live."


So, yeah, that's pretty good, if you ask me, but I'm glad he wasn't "touring all the time". I like Prince, the studio musician.

[Edited 1/11/25 8:56am]

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Reply #54 posted 01/11/25 11:43am

mclihah2

bizzie said:

mclihah2 said:


- Yet he couldn't stop touring

.

This nonsense again. Go to Princevault and look up his tours and live performances. There are long stretches of him doing none.

......

.

For a comparison: Bob Dylan has done more than 70 concerts per year since 1988 (except for 2020 and 2021, but that's when there was a worldwide virus): https://www.setlist.fm/st...6adb8.html .

It's more the essence of what he was doing - I was there in 2014 for the Manchester Hit n Run show - These UK shows were last minute and intense - You could tell that Prince was connected to his audience... it really meant something to him.

After he passed, I've really absorbed a lot of his shows - Particularly the aftershows... that he celarly didn't do for the paycheck.... and it's these shows that I really am referring to....

I'm thinking about the Paisley Park Celebrations - For example the 2002 one - The love and energy shows

Again, super successful amazing musician who was able to connect with thousands of people in his show, and use them as an extension of his show..

But the more I think about it, the more it feels hollow


I always, personally, feel sad that his time with Mayte didn't last....... In a parallel universe, who knows what would have happened?


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Reply #55 posted 01/11/25 3:38pm

muleFunk

avatar

skywalker said:



happyshopper said:


All we can hope is that they’re making a new Doc with someone like Questlove or Spike Lee, and doing a proper job of it. They’ll need to reinterview a lot of people, who may not want to talk about it all again!


Agreed. Either of those two would do fine. They should have asked Spike Lee to do it in the first place.



Absolutely 100 % correct!
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Reply #56 posted 01/11/25 3:49pm

muleFunk

avatar

Gooddoctor23 said:



v10letblues said:


I tink another point of contention general audiences may have for the doc may be about Prince "grooming" young underage girls like Mayte and Anna Fantastic. Though supposedly keeping things non sexual until they turned to legal age when he was already in his 30's. The doc does not shy away from pointing these things out.



Bingo. Trying 2 hide from the truth rarely works.



The common theme with both Anna and Mayte is that their mothers were involved with their situations
. The age of consent in England is 16.The age of consent in Minnesota is 16. The age of consent in many places across the US and the world is 16.

This is not condoning or offering condemnation for this behavior. If the documentary doesn't bring context to this then it dives into tabloid speculation and I'm sure their legal teams are well aware of this fact.
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Reply #57 posted 01/11/25 11:15pm

theblueangel

avatar

olb99 said:



Kares said:




paisleyparkgirl said:



Wendy and Lisa ? I don't think they said anything they hadn't seen before. The Jill Jones story is what ruined the doc.



.
That can't be true. Cutting one interview would've been an easily acceptable compromise for both parties, so there must be a lot more or totally different issues between them.




If a major part of the documentary was built around the idea/narrative of a "musical genius but lonely and imperfect human being", I guess the Jill Jones part was not the only thing that would need to be removed.

[Edited 1/9/25 11:37am]



Which is quite frankly absurd, because I don't see how anybody who had even a moderate interest in Prince and his music from the 80s through 2016 could dispute that he was lonely. He sang about it frequently.

He also sang about his flaws, albeit less often (see Letitgo).

I'm mostly interested in this doc because of the trove of unreleased video of live performances - the estate has been so frustratingly reluctant to give us much of this - the show on the D&P SDE being the huge exception. To me, that's really the most exciting previously unseen/unheard material we've gotten since he died. My holy grail is any and all video from 1988 through 1994/95. There's gotta be so much, and we've seen and heard so little.
No confusion, no tears. No enemies, no fear. No sorrow, no pain. No ball, no chain.

Sex is not love. Love is not sex. Putting words in other people's mouths will only get you elected.

Need more sleep than coke or methamphetamine.
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