richb8 said:

***

Well said. Thank you for that.

I would be very interested to hear those who so object to Jehovah's Witnesses reply to the last 3 points you've made.

richb8 said:

Yes I've talked to JW's and I've seen their oppressive social structure at work in my hometown. It also was a discussion topic when a special councel was investigating and listing the religions and sects in my countr; so these matters were adressed then.

I'm not an authority on religion. I do not believe in anything myself so it would be a bit pointless. But what you can do - also as a nonbeliever, is look at the way a "belief" sees the world, science; and how it deals with members and non-members. you don't have to be a theologon for that; you just use some common sense.

Scientology is one group you not necessarilly want to deal with.

Mindflux said:

I have read the above over and over again...and Im still seeing the same thing. Maybe u looking at it upside down or something. I have been reading alot of the threads from different topics and I see people r hellbent in kicking JWs down. If they want to believe what they want to believe, let them do it. If u dont like them, leave them the fuck alone! And im not standing up for them because they r JWs, cause i would be the same way if it was any religion. BTW, what the hell is Christendom?

Anji said:

This is the most truth that I have seen on this site in a long, long time

zobilamouche said:

Just stupid...when did Prince tell any fans to join anything except NPGMC?

LaMont said:

well, according to the kevin smith documentary "a Nght with kevin smith" in which he talks about documenting the rainbow children event, he preached all kinds of stuff and encouraged people to join his religion

one2three said:

no, it doesn't. the JWs are different because they adhere to an altered version of the bible and because they follow the watchtower which actually claims to be the voice of god himself.

XxAxX said:[quote]

one2three said:

It does?

one2three said

You are too funny!

So, even though one of the posters, Mr7, has already been on here and acknowledged that he and SensualMelody have a "difference of opinion" (which is quite a difference - they don't even agree on their own demonination!) YOU are still going to defend your position of speaking for both of them and re-adjusting their opinions so that they somehow tally???!!! Mr 7 - what you said is not what you said, do you hear??!

And, "what the hell is Christendom?" - you ask that and expect to be respected in this debate?? I tell you what, why dont you (to use your vernacular) leave us the fuck alone to carry on with some intelligence. See C, it's in the dictionary, Billy Jack!

utopia7 said:[quote]

XxAxX said:

me too . i used to admire prince's sense of style and timing, his artistry. in the old days we had diamond, pearl, mayte and geneva to watch
and yeah i know the old days are gone and the new days are here . . . but now we have larry and tina. tina waves a towel and larry takes off his shoes. . . .

FunkMistress said:[quote]

XxAxX said:

yes. it most definitely does. check out some of the debate happening in the politics and religion forum. the FACT is that, (despite having falsely predicted the end of the world on a number of occaions) the watchtower still claims to be the 'voice of god'.

MR7 said

I'm not suggesting you should have complete unity of thought, but one might at least expect you to have clarity on your denomination.

But, I thank you for taking the time to respond and doing so clearly and comprehensively. I asked for your opinion and got it, though I'm not interested in what the Watchtower's position is.

Though mine and your exchanges are vehement, I hope that others here manage to extrapilate some useful points from both sides of the fence. We (you and I) rarely agree, but I always feel I at least gain something from a debate with yourself, which is more than can be said for some. one2three seems to think I am persecuting, when I am not. I am simply voicing my opinion, along with everyone else. I'm not trying to convert anyone here either, I've said before, people are free to live their lives the way they want - its just, as you are aware, I've had experiences, so I feel I ought to have some input to these debates.

Peace.

richb8 said:

Interesting that you quoted one of my favorite passages, (which I think can be addressed powerfully to issues of race, but that is another matter).

Please note, however, that believers of ALL denominations have been hated at one time. No one denomination holds a monopoly on oppression.

Look, I am a Catholic and I have many JWs in my family. While I take issue with some of the comments about Catholicism by one or two JWs on this thread, I would never disparage the JW as a "cult." It is a religion with faithful adherents who may or may not disagree with each other on tenets of the faith at any given time. They should not be considered a "cult" because their numbers are small. Heck, Christ started out with 12 cats and a handful of women, and look what He was able to do! Seeing that faith is in essence belief without knowledge, who are any of us to speak affirmatively on what another believes?

I also agree with NPS that no one should criticize Prince for his choices in how to address his grief or any spiritual issues or crises in his life. He has a right to make his own personal choices. His music may belong to the world now, but his soul belongs to God, and he has to find his own way home.

Anji was right, originally. Prince may have found his soul again. Good for him. But I think that his constant witnessing has alienated some of his fans. Prince may indeed make soul-affirming music, but when I want spiritual fulfillment/salvation, I will turn to the foundations of my own faith. Respect mine and I'll respect yours.

The beauty in Prince's music was its ability to relate to one's own sense of spirituality. There now seems to be an element of spiritual exclusivity in his work now (1+1+1=3 is somewhat offensive to me, as well as certain comments attributed to Prince). Considering that along with the steadily decreasing appeal of his music to me personally, and my distaste for the people he surrounds himself with, and I can say that Prince may have gotten his "soul" back, but his music, while aesthetically appealing at times, is not as "soulful" as it used to be, at least to me.

And please, I've heard enough about the "traditional" Prince fans wanting the "nasty" Prince back. In his heyday, Prince did a number of classic songs that were neither vulgar nor sexual. Sure, some of the "mature" material was jammin', but I'll remember the classics like "Pop Life," 'Raspberry Beret," "Purple Rain," "17 Days," "Mountains," "SOTT," "The Future," "Still Would Stand All Time" and the "Lovesexy" LP, to name only a few.

I'm glad that so many people are able to connect to his music because of his new direction. It's a great feeling, I know; he's a special cat. Longtime fans should wish him well and appreciate the music he's given us already.

tackam said:

Have you heard 'Everywhere'?

Mindflux said:

I simply read the thread and came with my conclusion on it. Whatever difference they have, that's on them but I did not see it that way. I should be respected at least for that. Excuse me for my vernacular, but I just dont like when people gang up on others for their beilefs. And not once have I seen Sensual nor Mr7 do that.

"I found The Rainbow Children album, and ONA Live concert, as soulful and funky as anything I've experienced before..."

Mindflux said:

***

Thank you for your responses. I understand and respect your position and viewpoint, as I hope you respect and understand mine.

I don't really think our exchanges are that vehement. I always find you constructive in your comments.

I have no personal problem with anyone, I'm just addressing the topic from my own, personal experience. My reason for contributing is the same as yours.

I hope somewhere in our debates we reach a better understanding of each other.

Peace.





=
[This message was edited Fri May 2 12:15:35 PDT 2003 by Mr7]

one2three said:

***

Thank you for your support and responses One2Three. They have been much appreciated.

Peace.

SensualMelody said:

And why not? James Brown is 70 and still doing the "Please, please me" thing.

At the end of the terrific concert in Paris last year P has told us that he votes only for God , that upsets me because last year a fascist/ racist leader might have have been elected in France
JW despise democraty don't they understand that they can only do their door to door preaching only in free ( not perfect) countries ?
People are died and still fighting everywhere for free speech
Anyways with their politics "theophilosophy" I wonder what positive role did they play in any contry since their beginning more than a century ago, what were the jw leaders preaching during the civil right movements in the USA ? were they pro / anti slavery? Well I ask but I know...

jn2 said:

***

Hi there,

I do not despise democracy in any way. In fact, I greatly appreciate the efforts of the authorities, that is why I pay my taxes and I am a law-abiding citizen. Moreover, I believe that the authorities stand in their relevant positions by God's will.

However, from my reading of the Bible I have come to view God and his Kingdom as a heavenly Government. I sincerely believe that this heavenly Government will soon solve all the political and social problems mankind faces.

The reason I do not vote is primarily because I am already subject to a Government. My leader is Christ, rather than any human. He died for all mankind. Most Government leaders send men off to die for their causes.

Humans are impefect. In mankinds history virtually every political system has failed to bring about real, lasting change and improvements.

Governments are notoriously corrupt. Wars are waged by Presidents and leaders who claim to revere God and believe in the Bible.

In view of this, I chose not to vote or to become involved in politics. However, I do not condemn or hinder those who chose to be involved.

Ultimately, I do not believe that any human Government will ever solve the problems in the world today. Therefore I chose not to vote and instead place my faith and trust in God's heavenly Kingdom Government of love and perfect justice.

Peace.

Anji said:

Anji, you are my kind of Prince aficionado. I SO badly want to meet you someday. Please, if you ever come to the States for the Celebration or are ever in the Los Angeles area - let us know. I just want to hang with you and vibe.

jn2 said:

Just so you know there has been many witnesses tortured and killed for preaching god's word and many still preach in fear of their life underground today in various countries...
their belief of not voting is that they beileve this to be satan's system and there for ran by him vicariouly through political leaders...how could satan offer jesus the world and all it's riches if it wasn't his? they also believe that man cannot and will not establish peace on earth but only god can..."thy will be done here on earth as in heaven"

and yeah there were witnesses preaching to people of color during their fight for civil rights many learn to read through their studies with them...in the 60's the witness held a public assembly and were jailed by authorities because they were in a segreagted hall but chose to sit among each other... you know it's a lot deeper than yall really know all of the things they have been through and all that they have accomplished...

Instead of walking around with superficial knowlegde and assumptions about their organizations if you really want accurate knowledge of what they believe...stop slamming the door in thier face when they come to your door or pretending that ur not home...people pretend that they're seeking out the truth when in actuallity they run from it...
their not there to do u any harm they're just their because of love for their god and this is what he ask...you know these people have it hard sometimes it's not like they wouldn't want to be doing something else but they know someone has to do god's work

Look at them as being noah if anyone remembers that parable

Jestyr said:

Wow, Jestyr! Thank you, man. As I hope you already know, I've really enjoyed your insights on Prince too. And likewise, should you ever find yourself in London, just let me know. I got some cool tapes to vibe to!

Anji said:

Right on!

namepeace said:

I actually found The Rainbow Children as straight up as can be, stylistically and thematically. A complete return to form, in my opinion.

Supernova said:

I've found the lyrics on The Rainbow Children as intriguing and curious as the ones on Lovesexy. Each to their own I guess...

NuPwrSoul said:

I think he's done both on The Rainbow Children. The reflected introspection is really interesting and enjoyable to me. Regardless, it's certainly an engaging and challenging take on things, and I love that kind of heat from Prince.

richb8
Just so you know there has been many witnesses tortured and killed for preaching god's word

"preaching god's word" and fighting to improve things and to help other people are 2 different things
and many still preach in fear of their life underground today in various countries...

and that says what ? catholics or communists or homosexuals lead a dangerous life in various countries too

their belief of not voting is that they beileve this to be satan's system and there for ran by him vicariouly through political leaders...

so basically no need to choose between an elected president and a dictator because satan control everything

how could satan offer jesus the world and all it's riches if it wasn't his?

I don't know

they also believe that man cannot and will not establish peace on earth but only god can..."thy will be done here on earth as in heaven"

when people are oppressed because of their beliefs, race ... we are supposed to do nothing because the world is evil


and yeah there were witnesses preaching to people of color during their fight for civil rights many learn to read through their studies with them...in the 60's the witness held a public assembly and were jailed by authorities because they were in a segreagted hall but chose to sit among each other... you know it's a lot deeper than yall really know all of the things they have been through and all that they have accomplished...
there 's a great conspiracy against the jw organisation- like for the blood transfusion thing - I have never heard of their great actions, who can name a great jw man or woman in the history of humanity?
___
mr 7
Hi there,

I do not despise democracy in any way. In fact, I greatly appreciate the efforts of the authorities, that is why I pay my taxes and I am a law-abiding citizen. Moreover, I believe that the authorities stand in their relevant positions by God's will.

However, from my reading of the Bible I have come to view God and his Kingdom as a heavenly Government.

Catholics, protestants, jewish don't come to the same conclusions from reading the bible

I sincerely believe that this heavenly Government will soon solve all the political and social problems mankind faces.

Nelson Mandela was wrong, he should have become jw and wait for god to end appartheid

The reason I do not vote is primarily because I am already subject to a Government. My leader is Christ, rather than any human.
so if someone believes in god in shouldn't vote or have political views
He died for all mankind.
con- tra -dic -tion!
Most Government leaders send men off to die for their causes.
As a french I don't forget that young americans ared dead near the place I live to free my country - Government leaders don't fall from the sky, people can't resist and force their government to take good decisions, it happens sometimes

Humans are impefect.
Big news, between Staline and let's say Gandhi the level of imperfection is not the same

In mankinds history virtually every political system has failed to bring about real, lasting change and improvements.
that's why we shouldnt stop to fight , if America was a theocracy at the end of 19 th century the jw org wouldn't even existed, russel wouldn't have lived so long

Governments are notoriously corrupt.
Religious organisations are not (no jw here has answered the guardian article story)

Wars are waged by Presidents and leaders who claim to revere God and believe in the Bible.
demagogy and democraty have growned together , we know this since the ancient Greek civilisation but I guess that since they were not christians their great philosophers are ignored of the jw (+ they were pagans the horror!)

In view of this, I chose not to vote or to become involved in politics. However, I do not condemn or hinder those who chose to be involved.
It's easy for someone to have clean hands when he/she's involved in anything

Ultimately, I do not believe that any human Government will ever solve the problems in the world today. Therefore I chose not to vote and instead place my faith and trust in God's heavenly Kingdom Government of love and perfect justice.
People of Amnesty International , anti racist organisations , ecological organisations etc should stop and pray for jehovah to change things for the best
what does jehovah think of the cancellation of the third world debt?

Peace.

jn2 said:

1.Preaching God's word isn't trying to improve things? That in itself is altruisic, trying to give the oppressed hope is that not benevolent?

2.Preaching god's word even though the penalty is death, yeah who cares that says nothing about a person's faith, they just crazy right?

3. 1 john 5:19 "the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one" yeah voting makes a world of difference just look at the last election...i know my vote counted...look at all the great things our president is doing now

4. Well if you had faith in your god yeah maybe faith alone is doing something...

5. "Every civilizatiion that has ever existed has ultimately collapsed. History is a tale of efforts that failed or aspirations that weren't realized...so as a historian, one has to live with the sense of the inevitabilty of tragedy". Henry Kissenger Political scientist.

6. The soul of the flesh is blood (lev 17:11)
The holy spirit an we ourselves have favored adding no futher burden to you, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If you carefully keep urself from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!" Acts 1:28,29


peace