Kares said:

nayroo2002 said:

All twelve notes have already been used in every possible way.

.
This is such a stubborn misconception, sorry, but I hate hearing it all the time.
For the record: music is not just "12 notes". It's a mix of an endless number of notes in between those 12 too, an endless variety of rhythm, timbre, intonation, instrumentation, artistic expression – there'll be no "running out of unique combinations" ever.

Hearing Don Ellis' quarter-tone trumpet was a recent reminder of this for me.

databank said:

happyshopper said:

AI is already getting out of hand!

I noticed on YouTube someone has taken Princes demo vocals and put them over finished versions by other artists to create a whole album worth of tracks, which they've named "Get Blue".

It's surprisingly good, but this is going to get confused with real leaked tracks very quickly!!

Clearly. Any casual listener running into those will believe they're the real thing.

That's their problem, isn't it?
And those interested will then pick up on that.
In the end, I trust that there will always be someone to point out whether it is real or fake.
It's the same with fake news or factual news.
If you can, lean on common sense, look further, dig deeper.
And somehow I embrace AI and all the new technology coming our way.
People have to accept and understand that life is a constant way of learning.
And with that, everything moves slowly.

Everything seeps in slowly for those who are not along for the ride.
Likewise for those who are unable to distinguish real Prince music from AI-made, or self-created versions.
So be it, you can't stop or bring everyone along I think.

databank said:

nayroo2002 said:

Pretty soon (the next 100 years, or so?), noone newly born will ever learn how to play a musical instrument within their lifetime.
Why should they?
All twelve notes have already been used in every possible way.
Plus, AI can do it all for us with super generic results.

This could be said about pretty much any human activity. And it'll probably be much sooner than 100 years.

Hopefully (let's be optimistic for the sake of it ) it will be like Star Trek and people will just acquire skills and do things because they want to. We tend to forget it, but liberating humans from labor is an old humanist dream.

Couldn't agree more.

Kares said:

nayroo2002 said:

All twelve notes have already been used in every possible way.

.
This is such a stubborn misconception, sorry, but I hate hearing it all the time.
For the record: music is not just "12 notes". It's a mix of an endless number of notes in between those 12 too, an endless variety of rhythm, timbre, intonation, instrumentation, artistic expression – there'll be no "running out of unique combinations" ever.

Exactly!

Vannormal said:

databank said:

It brings the question of whether it's ethical to remix tracks after an artist's death (or without the consent owning the masters if the label choses to do so). Admitedly, I have listened to (and enjoyed) such official remixes on rare occasions, so I'd be dishonest if I said I condemn the practice entirely. And admitedly, once an artist is gone, it doesn't make a difference whether it's an official remix mandated by the label or fans doing it.

.

That said, I have not and will most likely never care for, or listen to fanmade mixes because I have no interest in them, if only because so far, those few cases where I enjoyed such posthumous remixes were because they were made by professional musicians who actually did add something personal and/or interesting to the songs, turning them into something else entirely (for example, Bill Laswell's posthumous remixes of Bob Marley: one may like them of not, but he definitely did turn Marley's music into Laswell music).

.

To mention one Prince fanmix I have heard recently, I certainly wouldn't call Strawberry Shortcake a fabulous new creation, it's just soup IMHO. So is any song substituting Prince's vocals to someone else's and, for that matter, those frankensteined songs on Originals. It doesn't bring any added, personal, creatively challenging value to the songs. It's just soup.

.

But I guess at the end of the day, my perspective remains that I do not listen to music to be entertained, which is why I have zero interest in anyone "improving" an artist's music in order to make it more digestible. What I'm interested in is observing an artist's creative process, in all its glories and failures. I often enjoy listening to records I don't really like or watching movies I don't really like, particularly if they're from a musician or director I usually do like. I don't get frustrated. I have fun observing what it is I think does not work and why, and what I think does work despite the flaws.

.

Now probably, some day, there will be a brand new, original record (or novel, or film) made entirely by an AI that I will find mindblowing. I'm very curious about the day it happens and how I will react to it. And maybe someday some fan —with or without an AI— will remix Prince and add something truly unique to the songs, that gives them a whole new flavor that I will find interesting. But people and/or AI removing Tony M. from Willing And Able, reversing backward vocals or adding Prince's vocals to I Hear Your Voice aren't doing me a favor. No offense to the people making those, I'm sure they mean well, but as far as I'm concerned, they're just ruining Prince's work and the result is, well... soup

With all due respect, there is no really better or morally sound way to listen to, enjoy or not enjoy Prince's music for study purposes.
We all have different approaches to his output, and just as well. I fully support those who can see the added value through the layering, and then want to take the liberty of sharing that with the rest of us paying mortals.
Getting deep into Prince's world of life in a special way adds value to the researchers.

But then that is often only for the very few.
Prince made music to leave it up to the spectator. Pretty much like any artist.
What the spectator does with it is entirely up to them I believe.

It's out there. And in 2024 the world has a very different approach when it comes to music and enjoying it.

All opinions aside, it's all about how the music is perceived, listened to and enjoyed or not. Right?

Be it versions made by established names, or versions made by fans/ DIY-ers.

IMHO of course.

As long as fan-made/posthumous mixes/remixes, etc. are clearly marked/documented, I'm okay with people doing whatever they want with the music that exists. Unfortunately and this has already been discussed many times here, fan-made mixes/versions are circulating as if they were original recordings. That's a first problem. A second problem is that the availability of stem separation and generative music software is slowly leading to an explosion of new unofficial versions, most of them of low quality (some people will use the word "crap" and I cannot disagree).

We're living times where the signal-to-noise ratio is getting worse. This is the case for music, for articles, for videos, etc. I don't know what's the solution for this. I guess we'll have to wait until those generative models become better. Then we'll all be out of work, but at least the quality of automatically-generated content should become better.

(Sorry to be negative, again.)

olb99 said:

Kares said:

.
This is such a stubborn misconception, sorry, but I hate hearing it all the time.
For the record: music is not just "12 notes". It's a mix of an endless number of notes in between those 12 too, an endless variety of rhythm, timbre, intonation, instrumentation, artistic expression – there'll be no "running out of unique combinations" ever.

Hearing Don Ellis' quarter-tone trumpet was a recent reminder of this for me.

.
Or Prince's 'Hot Thing' – where those 3, low G♭ synth-notes are actually flatter than G flat.

Vannormal said:

databank said:

It brings the question of whether it's ethical to remix tracks after an artist's death (or without the consent owning the masters if the label choses to do so). Admitedly, I have listened to (and enjoyed) such official remixes on rare occasions, so I'd be dishonest if I said I condemn the practice entirely. And admitedly, once an artist is gone, it doesn't make a difference whether it's an official remix mandated by the label or fans doing it.

.

That said, I have not and will most likely never care for, or listen to fanmade mixes because I have no interest in them, if only because so far, those few cases where I enjoyed such posthumous remixes were because they were made by professional musicians who actually did add something personal and/or interesting to the songs, turning them into something else entirely (for example, Bill Laswell's posthumous remixes of Bob Marley: one may like them of not, but he definitely did turn Marley's music into Laswell music).

.

To mention one Prince fanmix I have heard recently, I certainly wouldn't call Strawberry Shortcake a fabulous new creation, it's just soup IMHO. So is any song substituting Prince's vocals to someone else's and, for that matter, those frankensteined songs on Originals. It doesn't bring any added, personal, creatively challenging value to the songs. It's just soup.

.

But I guess at the end of the day, my perspective remains that I do not listen to music to be entertained, which is why I have zero interest in anyone "improving" an artist's music in order to make it more digestible. What I'm interested in is observing an artist's creative process, in all its glories and failures. I often enjoy listening to records I don't really like or watching movies I don't really like, particularly if they're from a musician or director I usually do like. I don't get frustrated. I have fun observing what it is I think does not work and why, and what I think does work despite the flaws.

.

Now probably, some day, there will be a brand new, original record (or novel, or film) made entirely by an AI that I will find mindblowing. I'm very curious about the day it happens and how I will react to it. And maybe someday some fan —with or without an AI— will remix Prince and add something truly unique to the songs, that gives them a whole new flavor that I will find interesting. But people and/or AI removing Tony M. from Willing And Able, reversing backward vocals or adding Prince's vocals to I Hear Your Voice aren't doing me a favor. No offense to the people making those, I'm sure they mean well, but as far as I'm concerned, they're just ruining Prince's work and the result is, well... soup

With all due respect, there is no really better or morally sound way to listen to, enjoy or not enjoy Prince's music for study purposes.
We all have different approaches to his output, and just as well. I fully support those who can see the added value through the layering, and then want to take the liberty of sharing that with the rest of us paying mortals.
Getting deep into Prince's world of life in a special way adds value to the researchers.

But then that is often only for the very few.
Prince made music to leave it up to the spectator. Pretty much like any artist.
What the spectator does with it is entirely up to them I believe.

It's out there. And in 2024 the world has a very different approach when it comes to music and enjoying it.

All opinions aside, it's all about how the music is perceived, listened to and enjoyed or not. Right?

Be it versions made by established names, or versions made by fans/ DIY-ers.

IMHO of course.

Certainly, none of my arguments is bulletproof and, for the most part, my opinions are merely political in nature.

I guess as a former artist myself, I nurished and embraced a perspective on arts that's wildly different than, as Prince once said, "a consumer's point of view".

Vannormal said:

databank said:

Clearly. Any casual listener running into those will believe they're the real thing.

That's their problem, isn't it?
And those interested will then pick up on that.
In the end, I trust that there will always be someone to point out whether it is real or fake.
It's the same with fake news or factual news.
If you can, lean on common sense, look further, dig deeper.
And somehow I embrace AI and all the new technology coming our way.
People have to accept and understand that life is a constant way of learning.
And with that, everything moves slowly.

Everything seeps in slowly for those who are not along for the ride.
Likewise for those who are unable to distinguish real Prince music from AI-made, or self-created versions.
So be it, you can't stop or bring everyone along I think.

TBH, I'm not entirely sure about any of that

At least when it comes to fake news and conspiracy theories, it quickly becomes everyone's problem, because it impacts everything.

Of course the stakes are not comparable with songs, but it's a matter of taking the general attitude that authenticity isn't important when, IMHO, it is.

That said, indeed one cannot stop it or bring everyone along, but I still don't think it's solely their problem and I believe it's healthy to keep addressing it.

Kares said:

nayroo2002 said:

All twelve notes have already been used in every possible way.

.
This is such a stubborn misconception, sorry, but I hate hearing it all the time.
For the record: music is not just "12 notes". It's a mix of an endless number of notes in between those 12 too, an endless variety of rhythm, timbre, intonation, instrumentation, artistic expression – there'll be no "running out of unique combinations" ever.

I agree 100%.

Nevertheless, when I think of how many musical approaches were explored by so many different people, and the insane amount of music that's been produced in the course of the last century (which is pretty much every year year as much as during the whole history of humankind before that!), I'm very curious about what music (or other artforms) will be like in a hundred years, let alone in a thousand. Finding whole new esthetics may become harder and harder.

databank said:

Vannormal said:

That's their problem, isn't it?
And those interested will then pick up on that.
In the end, I trust that there will always be someone to point out whether it is real or fake.
It's the same with fake news or factual news.
If you can, lean on common sense, look further, dig deeper.
And somehow I embrace AI and all the new technology coming our way.
People have to accept and understand that life is a constant way of learning.
And with that, everything moves slowly.

Everything seeps in slowly for those who are not along for the ride.
Likewise for those who are unable to distinguish real Prince music from AI-made, or self-created versions.
So be it, you can't stop or bring everyone along I think.

TBH, I'm not entirely sure about any of that

At least when it comes to fake news and conspiracy theories, it quickly becomes everyone's problem, because it impacts everything.

Of course the stakes are not comparable with songs, but it's a matter of taking the general attitude that authenticity isn't important when, IMHO, it is.

That said, indeed one cannot stop it or bring everyone along, but I still don't think it's solely their problem and I believe it's healthy to keep addressing it.

I could not agree more to keep it on the agenda at all times.

For sure authenticity is important, always.

I will never ever change my mind when it comes to facts.

Since we're living in an over-opinioinated world, it's harder to convince authenticity to those who think different, due to their (frustrated driven) short sight opinions (i believe).

We can't keep those who believe in conspiracy theories from stayng with the truth.

Let them go through these processes, and hopefully they wake up. Yes the impact can be overwhelming.

But I repeat, you can't bring everyone along.

That doens't mean i will never stop trying to explain to whomever why facts and authenticity are so much more important.

Any artist's music can and probably will change in the near future.

I mean the way it is used, listen to and looked at since AI is here, and everyone can touch it with a few clicks and some software.

Up till now I am able to hear a difference, easily (imho).

We're not even talking about Generative AI, which is some serious levels higher than what we've seen and heard so far.

It's an unstopable thing.

Do we need to worry? No we don't.

Do we need to be awake and on the look out? Yes.

It's always been like that for ages.

Can an AI approach bring something more to the table? Possible.

I stay open for all things new, but I'm also aware and careful. Sure.

Kares said:

nayroo2002 said:

All twelve notes have already been used in every possible way.

.
This is such a stubborn misconception, sorry, but I hate hearing it all the time.
For the record: music is not just "12 notes". It's a mix of an endless number of notes in between those 12 too, an endless variety of rhythm, timbre, intonation, instrumentation, artistic expression – there'll be no "running out of unique combinations" ever.

yeah
sorry i forgot to mention the blue note, the brown note
& all those ghost notes inbetween