It would be nice to have people in there who are at least knowledgab;le of the official releases.
I am as critical of teh new regime as I was of the old, but time to let it go because I honestly don't think we'll ever get properly curated releases without people messing things up or making amateur mistakes like with this United States of Division release pretending it's the same version as teh Cinnamon Girl single release when it's not (different mix and instruments)

[Edited 4/9/24 1:44am]

whodknee said:

JorisE73 said:

fredmagnus said:

It sounds like a remaster so if they did some work using the master tapes for this one then maybe there's something bigger coming. Who knows...

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It's not a remaster. A remaster doesn't just add horns to a song. This is a different mix.

databank said:

Someone in another community compared both version's audio spectrums and suggested that it could just be a difference in compression/mastering, but the same mix. I'm not qualified in sound engineering to say whether this is possible, but I think it was worth mentioning.

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Sorry but no. Just listen to the first 20 seconds: the original has synths, the new version has prominent horns which aren't on the original.

This is yet another Estate release that lacks basic info.

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In one tweet they claim this was recorded in Jan 2004, yet that info is not in their press release.

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They also don't provide liner notes WRT who engineered this or who plays on it, you actually need to check an Instagram post by rad. to have some clue about who was involved.

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They don't credit the artwork or the photographer of the photo used in the artwork, nor do they specify whether this is new artwork or discarded artwork from 2004.

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If this is from the original master tape, show us photos. Explain why this sounds different from the 2004 original.

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All of that is basic info. Yet none of it is in the press release which is 1200+ words long, while there was room for some babbling from Londell or a mention of a party that took place several weeks ago etc.

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Someone please explain to me why the Estate is unable to provide such info.

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Oh, also note that the “sourced from the original master tapes in Prince’s legendary vault” quote from the CoS article is not in the press release. In fact, if you google that quote, the only results are that article. So where did they get that information from?

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And how come CoS were able to publish an article about the release of this track at the same time the track started appearing on streaming services, while other publishers (Billboard, Rolling Stone, NME,...) only published articles hours later?

the estate arent into that kind of duane tudahl/princevault kind of archivist info, i think we all know that by now

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

the estate arent into that kind of duane tudahl/princevault kind of archivist info, i think we all know that by now

isn't Duane up there helping them out? maybe somone could ask him for details?

bizzie said:

fredmagnus said:

It sounds like a remaster so if they did some work using the master tapes for this one then maybe there's something bigger coming. Who knows...

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It's not a remaster. A remaster doesn't just add horns to a song. This is a different mix.

Indeed.

That's what i meant, sorry.

it would be nice to have a surprise sde reissue of musicology at the end of april.

it would be 6 months after the diamonds and pearls release.

but i guess we're STILL not looking at such a release schedule for prince's legacy releases.

when are we ever going to dent the vault this way?

bizzie said:

This is yet another Estate release that lacks basic info.

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In one tweet they claim this was recorded in Jan 2004, yet that info is not in their press release.

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They also don't provide liner notes WRT who engineered this or who plays on it, you actually need to check an Instagram post by rad. to have some clue about who was involved.

.

They don't credit the artwork or the photographer of the photo used in the artwork, nor do they specify whether this is new artwork or discarded artwork from 2004.

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If this is from the original master tape, show us photos. Explain why this sounds different from the 2004 original.

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All of that is basic info. Yet none of it is in the press release which is 1200+ words long, while there was room for some babbling from Londell or a mention of a party that took place several weeks ago etc.

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Someone please explain to me why the Estate is unable to provide such info.

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Oh, also note that the “sourced from the original master tapes in Prince’s legendary vault” quote from the CoS article is not in the press release. In fact, if you google that quote, the only results are that article. So where did they get that information from?

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And how come CoS were able to publish an article about the release of this track at the same time the track started appearing on streaming services, while other publishers (Billboard, Rolling Stone, NME,...) only published articles hours later?

agreed, it is so sad that no decent credits are provided. well, no credits at all, really

bizzie said:

This is yet another Estate release that lacks basic info.

Thanks to Kares, the mystery is partially solved. He allowed me to quote him from a message he posted in a private community:

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"It's not the same source or mix. First of all, the speed is slightly faster on the 2024 version – but that alone of course could be just the result of playing back the same analog tape for digitising on a different machine that is not calibrated exactly the same as Paisley's machine was back in the day. So this alone is not a definitive proof for a different source, just a sign.

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If you want a smoking gun though, check out the breakdown at the 5:01 mark: not only the gap is about 30 milliseconds shorter on the new version, but there's also a keyboard sound before the hit on the one that is not present on the 2004 version (I'm using the Cinnamon Girl CD single version as a source), and even more obviously: WHERE'S THE GUITAR PART? If you listen further, you'll find that not only the mix is different, you're hearing a completely DIFFERENT PART between 5:01 and 5:49. It's a different edit. The guitar comes in right at 5:01 on the 2004 version (and it sounds much dryer than on the new version) and they get to the horn lines sooner, as the horn part is longer than on the new version. The new version discards a part of the horn section and adds a new bit before the guitar part so they'll arrive at the same point as the 2004 version at 5:49. There are many more differences in the mix of course (and there even could be further differences in the edit too), I just haven't examined the whole track in detail yet, I just focused on the end part as it stood out for me as something obviously off.

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The bottom line is: this is definitely a different master (and a different edit) to the one released in 2004, and the Estate should communicate clearly(!!!) whether they found this different edit/mix (after all, it IS possible that Prince created two versions) or they created an entirely new edit/mix from the multitracks. We certainly need an explanation."

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Check the parts he mentions, the difference is indeed obvious. Great catch!

I'm inclined to think they just found and used a different mix from back then (whether on purpose or not), because I don't see them bothering making a whole new mix of a 2004 song (and so far, when they did, they at least had the decency to credit the engineer), but who knows...

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Either way, it's a real shame if they did it on purpose and didn't say it. While it doesn't matter to casual listeners, the Prince fans community is hungry for accuracy when is comes to such details, and it's always a problem when history is being silently rewritten like this

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And if this is just the result of sloppiness, I'd be like "anyone can make a mistake" if frankensteining songs and/or sloppy errors hadn't kept piling up on nearly each and every new release since 2016...

RJOrion said:

ShellyMcG said:

I think you're giving him too much credit. I tried to extend that same courtesy of giving him the benefit of the doubt but he still went off on me, telling me everything I was saying was "meaningless" because I have never managed any artists or run an estate . I never called out any individual by their names not have I ever made it personal. So I'm not sure about your theory about his intentions. He seems to have a big problem with people discussing anything they themselves are not involved in. Which is a weird take from someone who does that very thing just as much as anyone else. But it is what it is. I don't dislike the guy (or anyone else on here to be honest) and I like talking to him about these things but when someone hypocritically calls me a hypocrite then I find that kind of amusing

Now youre just lying...you have never seen me badmouth or disrespect Prince, his family, Londell McMillan, or the estate...im all for differing opinions on musical tastes and/or musical likes and dislikes, as art is subjective, but the personal attacks against the estate and its management is uncalled for and i will speak out against it more times than not...and if some people dont like it, thats just too bad...those few people can negatively respond how you/they wish, but to me that just proves my points even further...it doesnt bother me much at all...im not gonna change a thing

^OH! Get a ROOM!!!

It's called "orgnotes"

databank said:

I'm inclined to think they just found and used a different mix from back then

That is probably exactly the case.

ShellyMcG said:

whodknee said:

I think the main gist of what RJOrion was saying is that people are being too critical of a process they know little about. More importantly people are calling Londell and the estate out of their names- very disrespectfully. RJOrion is an adult (I assume) and doesn't need me or anybody else to defend them but I'm chiming in because I happen to agree.

Has the process of releasing the music been perfect? No. Do I question some of the moves? Of course. However, I'm still happy with most of the releases and guess what? If I don't like an offering I don't buy it. Simple.

I think you're giving him too much credit. I tried to extend that same courtesy of giving him the benefit of the doubt but he still went off on me, telling me everything I was saying was "meaningless" because I have never managed any artists or run an estate . I never called out any individual by their names not have I ever made it personal. So I'm not sure about your theory about his intentions. He seems to have a big problem with people discussing anything they themselves are not involved in. Which is a weird take from someone who does that very thing just as much as anyone else. But it is what it is. I don't dislike the guy (or anyone else on here to be honest) and I like talking to him about these things but when someone hypocritically calls me a hypocrite then I find that kind of amusing

I don't know what was in RJ's mind when they made that statement but it looked to me like it was to call out those who were hypercritical of the estate to the point it seemed personal. Londell and the estate are likely learning as they go so it's natural there will be bumps in the road. The personal attacks bely a general entitlement to the music and possibly contempt that certain orgers have for Londell and Prince's chosen associates in general.

I don't think you were specifically singled out at the beginning but you took it personally as if RJ hit a nerve. I'm not going to call out the culprits. We can all go back and see who they are. The main problem is that if you haven't been in their shoes you have to take into account there are factors you may not have accounted for before leveling (over the top) criticism. That said, we're all allowed to have an opinion on it. It's best to share them cordially and constructively though.

whodknee said:

ShellyMcG said:

whodknee said: I think you're giving him too much credit. I tried to extend that same courtesy of giving him the benefit of the doubt but he still went off on me, telling me everything I was saying was "meaningless" because I have never managed any artists or run an estate . I never called out any individual by their names not have I ever made it personal. So I'm not sure about your theory about his intentions. He seems to have a big problem with people discussing anything they themselves are not involved in. Which is a weird take from someone who does that very thing just as much as anyone else. But it is what it is. I don't dislike the guy (or anyone else on here to be honest) and I like talking to him about these things but when someone hypocritically calls me a hypocrite then I find that kind of amusing

I don't know what was in RJ's mind when they made that statement but it looked to me like it was to call out those who were hypercritical of the estate to the point it seemed personal. Londell and the estate are likely learning as they go so it's natural there will be bumps in the road. The personal attacks bely a general entitlement to the music and possibly contempt that certain orgers have for Londell and Prince's chosen associates in general.

I don't think you were specifically singled out at the beginning but you took it personally as if RJ hit a nerve. I'm not going to call out the culprits. We can all go back and see who they are. The main problem is that if you haven't been in their shoes you have to take into account there are factors you may not have accounted for before leveling (over the top) criticism. That said, we're all allowed to have an opinion on it. It's best to share them cordially and constructively though.

Regardless of individuals and who's responsible or in charge, 8 years is a looong time to learn, particularly since we're supposedly talking about professionals whose job it is to release music, and Prince isn't the first musician to die and leave a vault behind for other people to curate.

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There have been issues of one kind or another with nearly each and every posthumous release so far. When error is the exception, it's OK, shit happens. When error is the norm, I'd say it's legitimate to question the way things are done.

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Certainly, there is no perfect way to do this and there will always be people to think they would have done better without understanding the reality of the field. But the amount of dishonesty and/or sloppiness we've seen in the last 8 years is appalling.

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Now my point in saying this isn't to attack any specific person or have anyone lose their job, but to beg the people in charge for improvement. Not for myself or anyone here for that matter: we already have more Prince music than we'll ever need and we'll be in our graves long before the Estate is done releasing everything they have, but for the sake of Prince's legacy and future music historians.

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Art cannot always be limited to "content" and, with all due respect, contrarily to what Bob Iger recently said about Disney, isn't always just about entertaining people. It's a heritage we all share, which should be treated with respect even when it belongs to corporate entities.

MIRvmn1 said:

The Estate should release as much music as possible while we're still here, and they're well aware that we are willing to pay for more unreleased music. Instead, it's still limited to one release a year and lots of merchandise that no one cares about. Why not release both Musicology Deluxe or SDE and PR SDE?

When it comes to making unreleased material available in greater quantities, maybe they don't want to, but if they do, I honestly think a proper program involves way more than the necessary deluxe SDEs. The vault contains a lot of material unfit for such releases or any sort of physical/regular streaming release, either because of limited mass appeal or sound/video quality issues.

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1/ It appears Prince recorded almost every concert, soundcheck, rehearsal and practice sessions in audio and/or video. We're most likely talking of thousands of hours of audio and video recordings in the vault with those alone, most of which probably isn't multitracked or proshot, thus has sound/image limitations (not to mention repetitive content) that wouldn't be appealing to casual listeners.

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2/ Many mixes were tried out for many songs, but again, piling those up on CD or streaming services isn't interesting for casual listeners or SDEs (where they won't even put every released mix of Gett Off or Cream). There is also the matter of mixes that only exist on cassette and are being remade for SDEs, but since the remakes cannot ever be exactly like the originals, those cassette mixes are still interesting to fans and historians.

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3/ We also know that many album configurations exist for released albums, but all are variations on already available material and, except for maybe Camille and a few others, few are of a nature to interest anyone beyond the fanbase and music historians.

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So what to do? The David Bowie Estate certainly is an example that more physical/streaming releases could happen than what we got so far: SDE's for Prince albums and side projects, entirely unreleased projects like The Flesh, shows or rehearsals that particularly stand out... Sure. But given the ridiculous amount of material we know exist, physical/streaming releases could be complemented by a montly subscription program, be it through Bandcamp if they don't want to pay someone to maintain a website.

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Would it be profitable to pay someone to dig through the archive and an engineer to transfer and upload the material in decent quality? I cannot tell. But if they'd offer maybe a show or two, a rehearsal/soundcheck or two and an album's worth of "unworthy" studio material a month, they could probably grab 20 bucks a month or so from many fans. Bill Laswell, whose audience is niche by comparison to Prince's, manages to do it with basically three people running the whole project, so I'm sure the Prince Estate can do it.

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[Edited 4/9/24 18:59pm]

RJOrion said:

Vannormal said:

olb99 said:

To each their own. I've been wanting to hear the "full-horn" mix of "Lovesexy" ever since Eric mentioned it.

Wow! din't know that. Want to hear that one too!

Remember in which interview Eric said that?

thx

I'm starting to think that I might have hallucinated this... I'm still looking. I'll let you know. This is not from a recent interview/podcast.

bizzie said:

nor do they specify whether this is new artwork or discarded artwork from 2004.

This artwork was included in the "Musicology" booklet in 2004.

Ramzoo said:

bizzie said:

nor do they specify whether this is new artwork or discarded artwork from 2004.

This artwork was included in the "Musicology" booklet in 2004.

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Not true. That photo was used, but not with those words on top. By "artwork" I mean the complete composition.

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

the estate arent into that kind of duane tudahl/princevault kind of archivist info, i think we all know that by now

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Except they put the recording date in a tweet. And it isn't just about "archivist info", it's about properly crediting people for their contributions.

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Also: so what that "they're not into that kind of info". It is their job to provide it.

bizzie said: