ShellyMcG said:

nayroo2002 said:

Maybe TP can show you how to edit Prince songs.

You know, take this singer out, take that rapper out.

Maybe you just stop being a fan and take the rest with you

Serious question: does being a fan of a particular artist mean you have to like and agree with every single thing they ever did? I assume your comment is more tongue in cheek but some people in this forum seem to genuinely believe that disliking a particular song or in this case, a collaborator, means you are not a true fan. And that's just unhealthy. [Edited 9/8/23 15:01pm]

That is exactly what i needed to hear from you!

You are a golden gem in this chaos

It really doesn't matter what they put out in advance of the full set being released. No casual is buying this set, everyone who is going to stump up the cash for this is doing it regardless.

"Collaborator", please. c'mon now.

ShellyMcG said:

RJOrion said:

So now there's people showing open disrespect and negativity towards Rosie Gaines and Boni Boyer...smh...i know what thats about, and the reason behind it...same old nonsense...its weird that some of you even claim to be Prince fans at all.

I'm a Prince fan. Not a Rosie Gaines fan. If Rosie Gaines was on every Prince song then I wouldn't be a Prince fan. But she's not. So I am.

They'd still be Prince songs, though, he still wrote/produced/arranged/performed them.

Someone else miming a vocal melody Prince wrote/arranged for 5% of the songs somehow ruins them?

I'm not just singling you out, it's a common thing among a percentage of Prince fans, but like... If his vocals are that important does he even have any appeal doing all those other things on the tracks? Like are you a fan of Prince the multi-faceted artist or Prince the pop singer? All that energy spent honing his other abilities, he apparently could've just showed up to the studio and sang someone else's songs over someone else's beat cold like Usher or Justin Bieber and still kept a solid percentage of fans.

And this might be construed as a contrarian hot take or whatever, but uh. His vocals ain't all that to begin with. Literally every other talent in his trove of talents is superior to his vocal abilities. He's the GOAT artist, uhh probably not even Top 50-100 vocalists. And it's not just me, although I seem to be one of the few to acknowledge it. Everyone I've ever tried to get into Prince cites his vocals as the #1 reason why he's just not for them... again, are his vocals really that important to the essence of "Prince"?

I do get it, it's like a human association thing. It's why like if you follow communities of bands or artists with undeniably awful vocals their fans think they're like prime Teddy Pendergrass or something.

Like I'm a huge fan of The Cure, they're my #1B a slight notch behind Prince's #1A. You go to websites for them and their fans talk about Robert Smith like he's God's gifts to vocals. Literally some of the worst vocals ever, homie is gives off "drunk brit at fish & chips dive open mic night" every track, but the fans would probably get even more offended than Prince fans if he briefly featured another backing vocalist like it's like painting on the Mona Lisa.

It's like pro wrestling, how wrestling fans believe the lame 20 minute fake fights are the most important because the storylines and characters "trick" them into caring about the fake fights. Great songs/tracks "trick" fans into believing whoever's singing over them is the real secret sauce.

[Edited 9/8/23 17:05pm]

Mackopolis44 said:

Utterly pointless. I hate these peeps behind the magic curtain. No respect for the craft of songwriting and production and rubbing a great legacy in the dirt. Not for me.

Okay this has gotta be a satire post right? lol its just a fun alternate version of Cream, nothing to take that personally regarding Prince's legacy, all these sets do is give us more music from him to enjoy

strawberryletter23 said:

Mackopolis44 said:

Utterly pointless. I hate these peeps behind the magic curtain. No respect for the craft of songwriting and production and rubbing a great legacy in the dirt. Not for me.

Okay this has gotta be a satire post right? lol its just a fun alternate version of Cream, nothing to take that personally regarding Prince's legacy, all these sets do is give us more music from him to enjoy

yeah. "Cream" is lame but the "peeps behind the magic curtain" is part of the appeal of these kinda sets. Getting to observe the process a bit more, etc.

The pomp of it being a "single" maybe makes it more underwhelming but as a rando "album cut"-type drop buried deep on a Vault disc it's decent enough.

Oof, if this is any indication of the tracks we're getting here. I'd rather get live tracks from aftershows or something.

MendesCity said:

Oof, if this is any indication of the tracks we're getting here. I'd rather get live tracks from aftershows or something.

That would be neat, but they're giving us the exact same show as the Blu-Ray in 2CD form instead.

theblueangel said:

Doozer said:

If this were suddenly leaked in this quality, we'd all be creaming our shorts. This is a great "livestudio" version and is closer to the Arsenio performance, which is certainly the definitive version. The album version is smooth and simple, fine single for top 40, but is pretty subdued. There's a lot more fun in this "take 2". Considering the era we're regulated to for D&P SDE, I welcome this one. No unwanted rapping or whatever, just P doing his thang. This is the best thing I've heard yet from this SDE, no contest.

I have to firmly disagree. While I am always very eager to hear new leaks in great audio quality, this one would have gotten the same reaction from me that it gets now: "Hmmm. That's....disappointing. I won't ever purposefully listen to that again." Obviously I know Prince was a guitar virtuoso, but the general public certainly won't get that impression from this track.

This legit sucked all of the excitement that I had for this set out of me. (Well, this and also finding out yesterday that Blood on the Sheets is an instrumental - of COURSE it is). Oh well. I already bought it because I'm a sucker and I will certainly love a few songs on it.

Fair 'nuff. BUT I just don't think the average Joe is going to listen to a track named "Cream (Take 2)" and decide whether or not Prince was a guitar virtuoso. The name does imply it's not a finished product. It's a look into the development process of a song, which is what I found exciting, and in this case, contains elements that I think would've made the album version better.

I'm not even sure that the D&P proper album is a good case for Prince being a guitar virtuoso. This isn't the set to use to determine that kind of thing, and is full of enough silliness that I think "virtuoso" can be removed from the discussion, and certainly not used in the sense of "This guy was a rap-talent-identifying virtuoso!"

WhisperingDandelions said:

WhisperingDandelions said:

Landonfunkmonkey said:

mb71 said:

ShellyMcG said:

boomshaka said: I resent that!! In print it's libel.

I think Rosie is terrible, always have done. Live she was even worse. I've never liked any of his pronounced singers. Boni Boyer with her scream-until-I'm-sick thing, Rosie warbling away on every fucking thing, then the awful shouting shelby and whoever the hell else. All terrible and all totally unnecessary. Prince was a great singer, he didn't need these other screamers. And if they were so great, where are any of them now? Dead or nowhere.

Regardless of your preference for someone's singing voice over someone else's, what a dreadful thing to say.

"...if they were so great, where are any of them now? Dead or nowhere."

I wonder what your hero Prince would have made of that statement. Not much I suspect.

That's really poor, sorry.

T

Tokyo2 said:

strawberryletter23 said:

masaba1 said:

WhisperingDandelions said:

"Collaborator", please. c'mon now.

They'd still be Prince songs, though, he still wrote/produced/arranged/performed them.

Someone else miming a vocal melody Prince wrote/arranged for 5% of the songs somehow ruins them?

I'm not just singling you out, it's a common thing among a percentage of Prince fans, but like... If his vocals are that important does he even have any appeal doing all those other things on the tracks? Like are you a fan of Prince the multi-faceted artist or Prince the pop singer? All that energy spent honing his other abilities, he apparently could've just showed up to the studio and sang someone else's songs over someone else's beat cold like Usher or Justin Bieber and still kept a solid percentage of fans.

And this might be construed as a contrarian hot take or whatever, but uh. His vocals ain't all that to begin with. Literally every other talent in his trove of talents is superior to his vocal abilities. He's the GOAT artist, uhh probably not even Top 50-100 vocalists. And it's not just me, although I seem to be one of the few to acknowledge it. Everyone I've ever tried to get into Prince cites his vocals as the #1 reason why he's just not for them... again, are his vocals really that important to the essence of "Prince"?

I do get it, it's like a human association thing. It's why like if you follow communities of bands or artists with undeniably awful vocals their fans think they're like prime Teddy Pendergrass or something.

Like I'm a huge fan of The Cure, they're my #1B a slight notch behind Prince's #1A. You go to websites for them and their fans talk about Robert Smith like he's God's gifts to vocals. Literally some of the worst vocals ever, homie is gives off "drunk brit at fish & chips dive open mic night" every track, but the fans would probably get even more offended than Prince fans if he briefly featured another backing vocalist like it's like painting on the Mona Lisa.

It's like pro wrestling, how wrestling fans believe the lame 20 minute fake fights are the most important because the storylines and characters "trick" them into caring about the fake fights. Great songs/tracks "trick" fans into believing whoever's singing over them is the real secret sauce.

[Edited 9/8/23 17:05pm]

I agree in that you don't have to be a great singer to make good songs, even if you have a terrible voice. I like the cure as well, smashing pumpkins, modest mouse, built to spill. All have terrible vocalists. But bad singing doesn't really ruin a great song. Prince is interesting because I don't think he has a great natural voice, like in comparison to like a D'Angelo or Al Green or Gaye, who just have beautiful natural voices. But he's a great vocalist, in terms of what he's able to do with the voice he has. That being said he's not a bad singer, his natural voice i think is a bit nasally but it's still nice. And this Boni Boyer hate was out of pocket.

its the falsetto thats the great divider on whether people like prince or not, or if they like hs voice, or think hes a good singer. if he sung more songs in his lower/mid register, i doubt hed be as divisive (his falsetto is also a particularly kind of ebullient, thin falsetto too which might play a part in this). obv he had no intention of doing this (wonder if anyone ever said this to him) though, so it is what it is. someone should see if theres a correlation between his biggest/most acclaimed albums and whether theres more or less falsetto. all the big D&P singles for instance did not have falsetto. i think the majority of the PR album was not falsetto.

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

masaba1 said:

WhisperingDandelions said: I agree in that you don't have to be a great singer to make good songs, even if you have a terrible voice. I like the cure as well, smashing pumpkins, modest mouse, built to spill. All have terrible vocalists. But bad singing doesn't really ruin a great song. Prince is interesting because I don't think he has a great natural voice, like in comparison to like a D'Angelo or Al Green or Gaye, who just have beautiful natural voices. But he's a great vocalist, in terms of what he's able to do with the voice he has. That being said he's not a bad singer, his natural voice i think is a bit nasally but it's still nice. And this Boni Boyer hate was out of pocket.

its the falsetto thats the great divider on whether people like prince or not, or if they like hs voice, or think hes a good singer. if he sung more songs in his lower/mid register, i doubt hed be as divisive (his falsetto is also a particularly kind of ebullient, thin falsetto too which might play a part in this). obv he had no intention of doing this (wonder if anyone ever said this to him) though, so it is what it is. someone should see if theres a correlation between his biggest/most acclaimed albums and whether theres more or less falsetto. all the big D&P singles for instance did not have falsetto. i think the majority of the PR album was not falsetto.

Interesting idea, but I dunno. Even within the space of a few months in '86, 'Kiss' was hugely popular, while 'Mountains' was not.

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

Also, I remember how, only a few days after he died, they drilled open the vault.

Weren't they trying to find a will?

Mackopolis44 said:

strawberryletter23 said:

Okay this has gotta be a satire post right? lol its just a fun alternate version of Cream, nothing to take that personally regarding Prince's legacy, all these sets do is give us more music from him to enjoy

No satire intended. I'm serious. I've enjoyed following Prince while he was alive and creating music. I don't want to hear anything that detracts from the classic songs. Also, I remember how, only a few days after he died, they drilled open the vault. It makes me sad but I can't help myself when it comes to new releases. Maybe, as a huge fan, I was part of the problem and I just have to live with that. 🙄😞😕

How specifically do working demos of songs detract from the classic songs though, if I may ask? I just am not quite understanding that logic connection

For me it is the opposite - hearing this version of Cream for example is a fun listen but it also highlights the little subtle additions to the final mix that I may not have consciously thought about in a "boy I am glad he added that part in it" type of way.

I think probably the healthiest way to think about the Vault tracks and alternate demos/session takes coming out as all completely additive experiences that add instead of replace, detract, or subtract

I think this and everything else should be released, literally everything else. Yes I mean literally everything. I actually do have some thoughts about how I think this is boring, however, and will express those in another thread, BUT...

Respect for the craft of songwriting? Magic curtain? Maybe the illusion could be maintained back in the day, but these are just songs and he was just a guy. He worked his ass off just like many, many other musicians. He was terribly gifted, just like many, many other musicians... even though we all know he was far more gifted than most. That being said, sometimes the best gift we can give ourselves and future generations/fans is the knowledge that no one is born perfect, few songs are written perfect the first time around, few recordings are recorded or arranged perfectly the first time around. It takes discipline, knowledge, and talent to whip it into shape. It takes drive. Listening to something like this Cream take doesn't detract from anything unless you want to truly believe that everything he touched was golden from the get-go, and that would be a very silly world to live in.

[Edited 9/9/23 15:15pm]

lustmealways said:

I think this and everything else should be released, literally everything else. Yes I mean literally everything. I actually do have some thoughts about how I think this is boring, however, and will express those in another thread, BUT...

Respect for the craft of songwriting? Magic curtain? Maybe the illusion could be maintained back in the day, but these are just songs and he was just a guy. He worked his ass off just like many, many other musicians. He was terribly gifted, just like many, many other musicians... even though we all know he was far more gifted than most. That being said, sometimes the best gift we can give ourselves and future generations/fans is the knowledge that no one is born perfect, few songs are written perfect the first time around, few recordings are recorded or arranged perfectly the first time around. It takes discipline, knowledge, and talent to whip it into shape. It takes drive. Listening to something like this Cream take doesn't detract from anything unless you want to truly believe that everything he touched was golden from the get-go, and that would be a very silly world to live in.

[Edited 9/9/23 15:15pm]

You may change your mind when you hear the early take of Jughead in six weeks time.

masaba1 said:

I agree in that you don't have to be a great singer to make good songs, even if you have a terrible voice. I like the cure as well, smashing pumpkins, modest mouse, built to spill. All have terrible vocalists. But bad singing doesn't really ruin a great song. Prince is interesting because I don't think he has a great natural voice, like in comparison to like a D'Angelo or Al Green or Gaye, who just have beautiful natural voices. But he's a great vocalist, in terms of what he's able to do with the voice he has. That being said he's not a bad singer, his natural voice i think is a bit nasally but it's still nice. And this Boni Boyer hate was out of pocket.

yeah, co-sign on this. He's not innately good but much like his art itself, he was all about taking his influences and willing himself to be a diverse myriad of styles. Medium grade singer ultimately, but put his all into being the absolute best he could possibly be.

Smashing Pumpkins, perfect example. Their fans are always like "why can't Billy get back to singing good like the old days." Like umm.....

ShellyMcG said:

I don't care who writes a song or who plays what instrument on it. The only thing that determines whether or not I like a song is how it sounds. It just so happens that I like the majority of songs that Prince wrote including songs he does not sing on himself. Like The Time, Jill Jones and some other protege acts. I don't like all of them. I don't like most of his rap songs because in general, I don't like rap music. I don't like a lot of songs where he has female vocalists oversinging every note because in general, I don't like those kinds of singers. It doesn't sound good to me. Your point about if Prince sang on songs other people wrote like Bieber or Usher is ridiculous and a massive case of false equivalency. But I'll play along because you've always been nice to me and I assume you're being genuine and not just arguing for the sake of it. The answer to your question is "it depends". If the song is good, then I would listen to it. If the song is bad then I wouldn't. Like I said I don't care who writes it. I only care for what it sounds like. Prince didn't write Betcha By Golly Wow but it's still my favourite song on the Emancipation album. My issue with the album version of Cream (a song I love by the way) is not that Prince doesn't do 100% of the vocals himself. It's that his chosen backing singer's voice does not appeal to me. That's all.

Yeah yeah, appreciate your take.

I still believe it's a % of pro wrestling theater element and an explanation of "I like what I like because I like it and think what's good is good because it's good" isn't really the super in-depth analysis of preference I was going for exactly, but, whatever. Maybe I'm speaking too much to the subconscious.

Your enjoyment "Betcha By Golly Wow" kinda emphasizes what I'm saying though, because the original writer of that is arguably just as talented/perhaps even more talented a songwriter/producer as Prince. That song is a definitive staple of philly soul along with his other decades-lasting hit "La La Means I Love You". Maybe if you picked one he sang by a writer with less clout. Prince's singing kind of ruins those covers for me personally, the originals are perfect.

[Edited 9/9/23 18:10pm]

TheNumber23 said:

WhisperingDandelions said:

Wow, some very unusual hot takes on this thread!

Personally I love hearing demos of songs we know well - the earlier the demo, the better. I especially love the really raw guitar or piano only demos that surface occasionally. Love hearing how a song idea came together over time. Maybe, it is the same reason I love rehearsals - some of the best Prince jams ever tended to when he was a bit more loose and enjoying himself. Honestly, would listen a collection of raw rehearsal jams over the more polished studio tracks anyday. It says a lot about what great bands he put together, their rehearsal jams were often better than the main shows.

This particular demo is pretty live sounding, more of a rehearsal or something. I like it, but the guitar parts and fills aren't quite written yet so it does feel as though it is missing something. Still, Prince's vocal and the rest of the song is pretty much all there. Quite nice little guitar solo towards the end as well. Love it.

The only thing I'd add, this isn't THE demo for Cream - this is quite late in the song's evolution. This song really sounds like it was written on guitar, so I suspect there's an earlier guitar demo of Cream out there, perhaps not disimilar to the Webster Hall performance.

As for Rosie, for me she was the best thing about this era of Prince, she brought so much life to the D&P and era tracks, C&D too. I didn't really enjoy Prince's rap stuff but minus the Game Boyz I'd say this era band was incredible, including Rosie. Looking forward to hearing more unreleased tracks with Rosie. As for the other vocalists mentioned earlier, Boni, Shelby etc - they're great singers, and Prince loved their sound and what they brought to his work. Remember there's a difference between a singer and an artist, these were all great singers, even if I'm not that interested in them as artists I love what they brought to Prince's work as singers.