Why wouldn't you include The Chocolate Invasion and The Slaughterhouse with his regular albums?

Where they should be included is before Rainbow Children, though, since almost all the tracks were released via the NPG Music Club pre-TRC.

WhisperingDandelions said:

Mackopolis44 said:

WhisperingDandelions said:

Why wouldn't you include The Chocolate Invasion and The Slaughterhouse with his regular albums?

Where they should be included is before Rainbow Children, though, since almost all the tracks were released via the NPG Music Club pre-TRC.

Aye, it's just that I know they're compilations that's all. You're right, I should include them, I do enjoy them, but where to place them? It doesn't really matter, does it? First World problems, eh? I need to check myself 🤣😅🤣

They are complilations, of a sort, but primarily of songs released by the NPGMC in 2001. So they should sit before The Rainbow Children in that sense.

leecaldon said:

Mackopolis44 said:

WhisperingDandelions said: Aye, it's just that I know they're compilations that's all. You're right, I should include them, I do enjoy them, but where to place them? It doesn't really matter, does it? First World problems, eh? I need to check myself 🤣😅🤣

They are complilations, of a sort, but primarily of songs released by the NPGMC in 2001. So they should sit before The Rainbow Children in that sense.

.
An album's release date is the date it's released as an album – regardless of its contents. Originally albums were compilations of singles anyway, multi-disc sets, packaged together like books, that's why they were called albums. We are aware of the story of the Black Album too, yet if you want to put together an official list of releases, you should list it as a 1994 album, not '87.

Kares said:

Mackopolis44 said:

Kares said:

.
An album's release date is the date it's released as an album – regardless of its contents. Originally albums were compilations of singles anyway, multi-disc sets, packaged together like books, that's why they were called albums. We are aware of the story of the Black Album too, yet if you want to put together an official list of releases, you should list it as a 1994 album, not '87.

Ahh,good points! Aye, I knew that this would provoke a debate! I'm going to listen to them in the order I became familiar with them in (first time around). I still wonder about the NPG Exodus album, is it a Prince album?😎✌️🎸

.
I admit though that in my Music app I have most P releases and in there the Black Album is between SOTT and Lovesexy, live releases (incl. some bootlegs) are sorted according to the date of the actual gig, regardless of their release date (or if they had one), and both Madhouse 24 albums are also included – so for my own listening purposes I try to keep the "natural" order as much as possible.
.
But when I compile a discography, I stick to official release dates – and absolutely include all 3 NPG albums as well as the (first 3) Time, Vanity 6, Apollonia 6, (first 3) Sheila E, Family, Madhouse etc albums, for they are Prince albums, period.
.
I find it absolutely ridiculous what Discogs does for example, listing "Prince And The Revolution" releases separate from Prince ones, as if that would be a different artist whatsoever. Isn't it a joke that when someone searches for "Prince" on Discogs they won't see Purple Rain in P's discography?
As much as I love and respect The Revolution, I think they wouldn't argue with me saying that they weren't a real band on their own right while working with Prince – they didn't collaborate with Prince, they were HIS backing band and employees.
.

Kares said:

Mackopolis44 said:

Kares said:

.
I admit though that in my Music app I have most P releases and in there the Black Album is between SOTT and Lovesexy, live releases (incl. some bootlegs) are sorted according to the date of the actual gig, regardless of their release date (or if they had one), and both Madhouse 24 albums are also included – so for my own listening purposes I try to keep the "natural" order as much as possible.
.
But when I compile a discography, I stick to official release dates – and absolutely include all 3 NPG albums as well as the (first 3) Time, Vanity 6, Apollonia 6, (first 3) Sheila E, Family, Madhouse etc albums, for they are Prince albums, period.
.
I find it absolutely ridiculous what Discogs does for example, listing "Prince And The Revolution" releases separate from Prince ones, as if that would be a different artist whatsoever. Isn't it a joke that when someone searches for "Prince" on Discogs they won't see Purple Rain in P's discography?
As much as I love and respect The Revolution, I think they wouldn't argue with me saying that they weren't a real band on their own right while working with Prince – they didn't collaborate with Prince, they were HIS backing band and employees.
.

Yes, it's a bit of a concern when algorithms are rewriting history! I would blame AI but, to be fair, it's all down to programmers and categorisation. Hopefully someday we'll see past the digital haze 😎✌️🎸

.
This has nothing to do with algorithms – it's a stupid editorial decision (one of many) from Discogs. It is the nature of these sites that anyone can contribute to (similarly to Wikipedia), they end up being full of errors and lots of endless arguments with people who lack the professional skills and knowledge of running large archives.

Kares said:

leecaldon said:

They are complilations, of a sort, but primarily of songs released by the NPGMC in 2001. So they should sit before The Rainbow Children in that sense.

.
An album's release date is the date it's released as an album – regardless of its contents. Originally albums were compilations of singles anyway, multi-disc sets, packaged together like books, that's why they were called albums. We are aware of the story of the Black Album too, yet if you want to put together an official list of releases, you should list it as a 1994 album, not '87.

Yes, but an EP or single's release date is also the day the EP or single was released.

You could look at the NPGMC monthly releases as official album releases directly by Prince instead of through a record company, be they singles, EPs or albums of new songs. Here the singles or EPs can be considered as album releases with fewer new songs because they were bundled together with prior tracks, remixes, live tracks and tracks by other people. This would put The Rainbow Chrildren LP between Ahdio 8 and 10 i.e. as the October 2001 Ahdio release.

If the concern is most Ahdios were collections of new and old tracks together with tracks by other artists, then what about the mix of artists on Graffiti Bridge?

...'Sign "O" The Times'-"the black album'-'Lovesexy'...

(not 1994)

IanRG said:

Kares said:

.
An album's release date is the date it's released as an album – regardless of its contents. Originally albums were compilations of singles anyway, multi-disc sets, packaged together like books, that's why they were called albums. We are aware of the story of the Black Album too, yet if you want to put together an official list of releases, you should list it as a 1994 album, not '87.

Yes, but an EP or single's release date is also the day the EP or single was released.

You could look at the NPGMC monthly releases as official album releases directly by Prince instead of through a record company, be they singles, EPs or albums of new songs. Here the singles or EPs can be considered as album releases with fewer new songs because they were bundled together with prior tracks, remixes, live tracks and tracks by other people. This would put The Rainbow Chrildren LP between Ahdio 8 and 10 i.e. as the October 2001 Ahdio release.

If the concern is most Ahdios were collections of new and old tracks together with tracks by other artists, then what about the mix of artists on Graffiti Bridge?

.
I wouldn't consider the "Ahdio Shows" albums. They were radio shows or podcasts. If a single or EP was released separately (either online or physical), then of course you should list those as single or EP releases. But if they (or some of them) were included on an album too, that's an album release too and should be listed as such. Singles often predate albums anyway. A 'compilation album' as we usually think of it nowdays is typically material compiled from previous albums. So in my books The Slaughterhouse and The Chocolate Invasion are normal studio albums.
.
The Rainbow Children's official release date is the date it was first made available online, not the date of the physical release.
.
Graffiti Bridge is also a normal album. It shouldn't matter that most songs were preexisting. Prince often included old songs on his albums anyway, sometimes without our knowledge – sometimes we just assumed all tracks were new.

.

[Edited 8/2/23 14:10pm]

Kares said:

IanRG said:

Yes, but an EP or single's release date is also the day the EP or single was released.

You could look at the NPGMC monthly releases as official album releases directly by Prince instead of through a record company, be they singles, EPs or albums of new songs. Here the singles or EPs can be considered as album releases with fewer new songs because they were bundled together with prior tracks, remixes, live tracks and tracks by other people. This would put The Rainbow Chrildren LP between Ahdio 8 and 10 i.e. as the October 2001 Ahdio release.

If the concern is most Ahdios were collections of new and old tracks together with tracks by other artists, then what about the mix of artists on Graffiti Bridge?

.
I wouldn't consider the "Ahdio Shows" albums. They were radio shows or podcasts. If a single or EP was released separately (either online or physical), then of course you should list those as single or EP releases. But if they (or some of them) were included on an album too, that's an album release too and should be listed as such. Singles often predate albums anyway. A 'compilation album' as we usually think of it nowdays is typically material compiled from previous albums. So in my books The Slaughterhouse and The Chocolate Invasion are normal studio albums.
.
The Rainbow Children's official release date is the date it was first made available online, not the date of the physical release.
.
Graffiti Bridge is also a normal album. It shouldn't matter that most songs were preexisting. Prince often included old songs on his albums anyway, sometimes without our knowledge – sometimes we just assumed all tracks were new.

.

[Edited 8/2/23 14:10pm]

And that is the point - Each to their own.

Each show also came with downloadable new songs that were later included on the two albums, so you certainly could say these are like singles for the two albums - so not they are not just compilation albums. The difference from the norm here is that most of the time you only have 1 or 2 pre-album release singles rather than the whole lot all being pre-released.

You missed my point about Graffiti Bridge - It was not that it is a set of pre-existing songs, but that it, like the Ahdio shows is a collection of artists - It is a compilation for a movie, not a normal album. It differs from Purple Rain because The Time and Apollonia 6 songs in the movie are not on Purple Rain album.

Kares said:

.
I admit though that in my Music app I have most P releases and in there the Black Album is between SOTT and Lovesexy, live releases (incl. some bootlegs) are sorted according to the date of the actual gig, regardless of their release date (or if they had one), and both Madhouse 24 albums are also included – so for my own listening purposes I try to keep the "natural" order as much as possible.
.
But when I compile a discography, I stick to official release dates – and absolutely include all 3 NPG albums as well as the (first 3) Time, Vanity 6, Apollonia 6, (first 3) Sheila E, Family, Madhouse etc albums, for they are Prince albums, period.
.

I have a similar approach. I agree with you that release date is the official date and should be default, but The Black Album sonically sounds out of place between Come and TGE, while it fits perfectly between SOTT and Lovesexy. So I compromise. When I organize the physical CD on my shelf and the folder in my digital files, it's sorted as 1994. But when I create playlists on my music app, it's sorted before Lovesexy.

Kares said:

leecaldon said:

They are complilations, of a sort, but primarily of songs released by the NPGMC in 2001. So they should sit before The Rainbow Children in that sense.

.
An album's release date is the date it's released as an album – regardless of its contents. Originally albums were compilations of singles anyway, multi-disc sets, packaged together like books, that's why they were called albums. We are aware of the story of the Black Album too, yet if you want to put together an official list of releases, you should list it as a 1994 album, not '87.

Right, those are "release dates", I'm talking proper order from a binge-discog catalogue perspective, which you seem to agree with given like 2 posts later you admit you sequence The Black Album after SOTT without the requisite grandiose rationale.

The one's I take most umbridge are thus, and it's pervaded all across the web because whatever looney tune put the official Prince wikipedia in permanent "locked" or "protected" mode, whatever they call it:

C-Note needs to be included in his official albums discog and not "live" albums. Though it may be "live", the contents have no officially released studio equivalent unless you count the video version of "Empty Room," and even then that's only one track. It's not Prince live at Budokan, it's not One Night Alone... Live! It's its own unique collection of tracks. idgaf if they are "jams" or not: they are "new" Prince tracks that do not appear on prior or later albums.

Crystal Ball, The Vault: Old Friends 4 Sale, Ultimate Prince, The Hits/The B-Sides, Very Best of Prince are all true compilations, designed as compilations and released as compilations. These need to stop being included in his "albums" lists. I'm sick of reviews that go into Crystal Ball like it's his formal follow-up to Emancipation. It's a Vault compilation. Acting like these are regular "Prince albums" honestly undermines the real albums.

IanRG said:

Kares said:

.
I wouldn't consider the "Ahdio Shows" albums. They were radio shows or podcasts. If a single or EP was released separately (either online or physical), then of course you should list those as single or EP releases. But if they (or some of them) were included on an album too, that's an album release too and should be listed as such. Singles often predate albums anyway. A 'compilation album' as we usually think of it nowdays is typically material compiled from previous albums. So in my books The Slaughterhouse and The Chocolate Invasion are normal studio albums.
.
The Rainbow Children's official release date is the date it was first made available online, not the date of the physical release.
.
Graffiti Bridge is also a normal album. It shouldn't matter that most songs were preexisting. Prince often included old songs on his albums anyway, sometimes without our knowledge – sometimes we just assumed all tracks were new.

.

[Edited 8/2/23 14:10pm]

And that is the point - Each to their own.

Each show also came with downloadable new songs that were later included on the two albums, so you certainly could say these are like singles for the two albums - so not they are not just compilation albums. The difference from the norm here is that most of the time you only have 1 or 2 pre-album release singles rather than the whole lot all being pre-released.

You missed my point about Graffiti Bridge - It was not that it is a set of pre-existing songs, but that it, like the Ahdio shows is a collection of artists - It is a compilation for a movie, not a normal album. It differs from Purple Rain because The Time and Apollonia 6 songs in the movie are not on Purple Rain album.

.
The "Ahdio Shows" were podcasts. Sure, they included new material, but I consider their inclusion previews. Sometime artists preview yet to be released material at discos (as P himself often did before!) or in radio shows, but we don't consider those proper releases.
.
Graffiti Bridge is a Prince album – it is HIS sole concept, material, production, even if it features a couple of other vocalists too (see 'Supernatural', for example). Again, it is not a 'compilation' as it is all new (previously unreleased) material.
.

WhisperingDandelions said:

The one's I take most umbridge are thus, and it's pervaded all across the web because whatever looney tune put the official Prince wikipedia in permanent "locked" or "protected" mode, whatever they call it:

C-Note needs to be included in his official albums discog and not "live" albums. Though it may be "live", the contents have no officially released studio equivalent unless you count the video version of "Empty Room," and even then that's only one track. It's not Prince live at Budokan, it's not One Night Alone... Live! It's its own unique collection of tracks. idgaf if they are "jams" or not: they are "new" Prince tracks that do not appear on prior or later albums.

Crystal Ball, The Vault: Old Friends 4 Sale, Ultimate Prince, The Hits/The B-Sides, Very Best of Prince are all true compilations, designed as compilations and released as compilations. These need to stop being included in his "albums" lists. I'm sick of reviews that go into Crystal Ball like it's his formal follow-up to Emancipation. It's a Vault compilation. Acting like these are regular "Prince albums" honestly undermines the real albums.

.
C-Note absolutely should be included in his official albums discography. The thing is, the whole perception of live albums being some "second rate" material originates from typical, run-of-the-mill pop artists, who can only (at best) reproduce what they already released on their studio albums, especially when they use prerecorded tracks at their concerts too, as typically they don't have anything new to say musically, so naturally their "live" albums don't count as new material.
.
For real musicians it is a totally different case. They create new music – whether in the studio or on stage, and often it doesn't even matter what "songs" they play, they might be old hits, covers or new compositions, they will play it differently every night, thus their live albums ARE important parts of their discography – see Miles Davis, for example: would you want to exclude 'Agharta' or 'Pangaea' from his catalog just because they were recorded in front of an audience? I know I wouldn't.
.
So yes, 'C-Note' does belong to the core discography – and so does Crystal Ball and The Vault OF4S too! They are first releases of that material! They are albums put together by P, regardless of when those songs were recorded.
.
To be honest, I don't really care they're not albums in the traditional sense, but I also consider some of P's single/EP releases to be part of his core catalog too, as they are just as important as his albums: The War and One Song, for example, are unique, original releases that were never part of any albums, and their constant omission from the core discographies undermines their importance.
.

[Edited 8/2/23 22:31pm]

Kares said:

C-Note absolutely should be included in his official albums discography. The thing is, the whole perception of live albums being some "second rate" material originates from typical, run-of-the-mill pop artists, who can only (at best) reproduce what they already released on their studio albums, especially when they use prerecorded tracks at their concerts too, as typically they don't have anything new to say musically, so naturally their "live" albums don't count as new material.
.
For real musicians it is a totally different case. They create new music – whether in the studio or on stage, and often it doesn't even matter what "songs" they play, they might be old hits, covers or new compositions, they will play it differently every night, thus their live albums ARE important parts of their discography – see Miles Davis, for example: would you want to exclude 'Agharta' or 'Pangaea' from his catalog just because they were recorded in front of an audience? I know I wouldn't.
.
So yes, 'C-Note' does belong to the core discography – and so does Crystal Ball and The Vault OF4S too! They are first releases of that material! They are albums put together by P, regardless of when those songs were recorded.
.
To be honest, I don't really care they're not albums in the traditional sense, but I also consider some of P's single/EP releases to be part of his core catalog too, as they are just as important as his albums: The War and One Song, for example, are unique, original releases that were never part of any albums, and their constant omission from the core discographies undermines their importance.
.

[Edited 8/2/23 22:31pm]

co-sign on the last part. Yeah, 'The War' is definitely more of an EP.

I'm even a step more extreme because I believe all his songwriting work needs to be considered "part" of his official discog. It's all important and enhances perspective on what accomplished while he was here. Only focusing on "Prince" albums is going to omit hundreds of Prince songs.

As for Crystal Ball/Old Friends 4 Sale, all bands/artists usually have like a "beat the bootleggers" compilation of rando tracks culled from previous album sessions. They're all compilations, still. I'm not saying they're unimportant, but they're compilations. You sorta maybe might kinda be working toward a point noting they are the "first releases" of material--except some of it was already released, "Good Love" on Bright Lights, Big City OST "She Spoke to Me" on Girl 6, "5 Women" already given to Kenny Rogers, all the remixes of stuff already established. Including Crystal Ball/OF4S in the official album oeuvre is a microstep away from including Girl 6 in as a "Prince album".

And it's controversial to invoke the "what Prince would want" card, but genuinely I do not believe he'd want Crystal Ball or something with "The Vault" in the literal title to be considered part of his proper "albums" discog. It's why he included 'The Truth' with Crystal Ball--there's your new album with your Vault comp.

Also didn't WB compile/sequence OF4S?

[Edited 8/3/23 0:14am]

Mackopolis44 said:

Excellent bunch of opinions and options here 👍 I got as far as Diamonds and Pearls yesterday so I'm starting with 0+> today. It's been great fun listening back through the 80s and into the 90s sparking many great memories. Like seeing the extended Thieves in the Temple video played at his gig in Birmingham before the main show. I remember that song ringing around my head for 6 weeks before it was officially released later that summer. The mad extravagance of the Cream and Gett Off videos and the complimentary tickets for a Manchester show following the Blenheim Palace no show. Great stuff 😎✌️🎸

See, there's a great example.

In my Prince folder and last time I binged Prince sequentially the Carmen Electra album always has to get binged when we're talking D&P/Love Symbol territory. Must force the Carmen, Carmen LP majority tracked spring 1991 - summer 1992, Symbol finished/tracked around the same timeframe. A lot of stuff like the Martika material and Ingrid Chavez stuff is from this period as well. "My Tender Heart", "Open Book", "Standing at the Altar', "I Hear Your Voice", "Exploding All Over Europe", some cool essential "official expanded discog" stuff from this era.

[Edited 8/3/23 0:54am]

WhisperingDandelions said:

WhisperingDandelions said:

Kares said:

C-Note absolutely should be included in his official albums discography. The thing is, the whole perception of live albums being some "second rate" material originates from typical, run-of-the-mill pop artists, who can only (at best) reproduce what they already released on their studio albums, especially when they use prerecorded tracks at their concerts too, as typically they don't have anything new to say musically, so naturally their "live" albums don't count as new material.
.
For real musicians it is a totally different case. They create new music – whether in the studio or on stage, and often it doesn't even matter what "songs" they play, they might be old hits, covers or new compositions, they will play it differently every night, thus their live albums ARE important parts of their discography – see Miles Davis, for example: would you want to exclude 'Agharta' or 'Pangaea' from his catalog just because they were recorded in front of an audience? I know I wouldn't.
.
So yes, 'C-Note' does belong to the core discography – and so does Crystal Ball and The Vault OF4S too! They are first releases of that material! They are albums put together by P, regardless of when those songs were recorded.
.
To be honest, I don't really care they're not albums in the traditional sense, but I also consider some of P's single/EP releases to be part of his core catalog too, as they are just as important as his albums: The War and One Song, for example, are unique, original releases that were never part of any albums, and their constant omission from the core discographies undermines their importance.
.

[Edited 8/2/23 22:31pm]

co-sign on the last part. Yeah, 'The War' is definitely more of an EP.

I'm even a step more extreme because I believe all his songwriting work needs to be considered "part" of his official discog. It's all important and enhances perspective on what accomplished while he was here. Only focusing on "Prince" albums is going to omit hundreds of Prince songs.

As for Crystal Ball/Old Friends 4 Sale, all bands/artists usually have like a "beat the bootleggers" compilation of rando tracks culled from previous album sessions. They're all compilations, still. I'm not saying they're unimportant, but they're compilations. You sorta maybe might kinda be working toward a point noting they are the "first releases" of material--except some of it was already released, "Good Love" on Bright Lights, Big City OST "She Spoke to Me" on Girl 6, "5 Women" already given to Kenny Rogers, all the remixes of stuff already established. Including Crystal Ball/OF4S in the official album oeuvre is a microstep away from including Girl 6 in as a "Prince album".

And it's controversial to invoke the "what Prince would want" card, but genuinely I do not believe he'd want Crystal Ball or something with "The Vault" in the literal title to be considered part of his proper "albums" discog. It's why he included 'The Truth' with Crystal Ball--there's your new album with your Vault comp.

Also didn't WB compile/sequence OF4S?

[Edited 8/3/23 0:14am]

.
For me the bottom line is: when people talk about someone's "core catalog" or "albums catalog" they usually assume that that is that artist's complete body of work – as generally live LPs and compilations tend to simply repeat previously released material. In Prince's case though this makes a massive difference, as his official, 37 or so albums are only the tip of the iceberg, and omitting stuff like Exodus, Madhouse, Crystal Ball, VaultOF4S, Kamasutra, The Time, V6/A6 etc etc makes absolutely no sense to me. They are Prince albums just as any other, and including them already DOUBLES the number of his albums – and it is far less misleading to say "his core catalog is approx 70 albums" than sticking to the usual "he made 37 albums" statement. If you put Crystal Ball or VaultOF4S under 'compilations', people will assume they aren't worth checking out as they surely consist of previously released material. Wrong.
.
And of course we're still far from talking about all of his compositions that officially saw the light of day in his lifetime. And then there's the vault too, with hundreds, possibly a thousand more original compositions.
.

[Edited 8/3/23 1:24am]

Kares said:

IanRG said:

And that is the point - Each to their own.

Each show also came with downloadable new songs that were later included on the two albums, so you certainly could say these are like singles for the two albums - so not they are not just compilation albums. The difference from the norm here is that most of the time you only have 1 or 2 pre-album release singles rather than the whole lot all being pre-released.

You missed my point about Graffiti Bridge - It was not that it is a set of pre-existing songs, but that it, like the Ahdio shows is a collection of artists - It is a compilation for a movie, not a normal album. It differs from Purple Rain because The Time and Apollonia 6 songs in the movie are not on Purple Rain album.

.
The "Ahdio Shows" were podcasts. Sure, they included new material, but I consider their inclusion previews. Sometime artists preview yet to be released material at discos (as P himself often did before!) or in radio shows, but we don't consider those proper releases.
.
Graffiti Bridge is a Prince album – it is HIS sole concept, material, production, even if it features a couple of other vocalists too (see 'Supernatural', for example). Again, it is not a 'compilation' as it is all new (previously unreleased) material.
.

Re the Ahdio shows: Yes, that is what I is said - your position is arguably able to be held - they can be seen as podcasts before the first podcasts. However, as podcasts did not exist then and they are not the same as a live preview performance at a disco or a preview play on radio, they can just as arguably be seen as releases.

Why can they be seen as releases? They are studio versions, not live versions - they are as they appeared on the latter compilation albums. The artist and body releasing them were paid for the NPGMC releases. They intended that the buyer was legally able to replay these as many times as they liked - which you cannot do with a disco or radio preview because they were not transitory plays at disco or as previews on live radio.

When you refer to your opinion as "we", is this the Royal "we"?

Re Graffiti Bidge: Again you are missing my point - It does not matter how many times you point out that it is not a compilation of previously released songs because this is not what I said - There is a difference between:

- a compilation of previously released songs (like 2004 The Chocolate Invasion and Slaughterhouse releases of songs people paid for in 2001 and 2002), and

- a compilation of not previously released songs from a movie. Graffiti Bridge IS different from Purple Rain because more than 1/3rd of the songs are attributed by Prince himself as duets or songs by other artists. Prince deliberately made sure that for Purple Rain the songs on his album did not include the other songs by other artists in the movie even though they were also HIS sole concept, material and productions.

[Edited 8/3/23 14:08pm]

WhisperingDandelions said:

The one's I take most umbridge are thus, and it's pervaded all across the web because whatever looney tune put the official Prince wikipedia in permanent "locked" or "protected" mode, whatever they call it:

C-Note needs to be included in his official albums discog and not "live" albums. Though it may be "live", the contents have no officially released studio equivalent unless you count the video version of "Empty Room," and even then that's only one track. It's not Prince live at Budokan, it's not One Night Alone... Live! It's its own unique collection of tracks. idgaf if they are "jams" or not: they are "new" Prince tracks that do not appear on prior or later albums.

Crystal Ball, The Vault: Old Friends 4 Sale, Ultimate Prince, The Hits/The B-Sides, Very Best of Prince are all true compilations, designed as compilations and released as compilations. These need to stop being included in his "albums" lists. I'm sick of reviews that go into Crystal Ball like it's his formal follow-up to Emancipation. It's a Vault compilation. Acting like these are regular "Prince albums" honestly undermines the real albums.

You kind of contradict yourself. Your point about C-Note is that it's the only the official release of songs not otherwise available. That's a valid point. But the same is true for Cyrstal Ball and The Vault.

In other words, you're using two different standards. First you argue it's a quetion of uniqueness (with respect to C-Note), but then you move the goal post to a complete different standard for Crytal Ball and The Vault... a standard, which to be honest, I'm not quite following. Yes, they were hodge podge collections of congs recorded and various times and thrown together, rather than a coherent project. But the same can be said for Purple Rain, SOTT, Graffiti Bridge, HNR2, etc. A lot of albums started off like that.

WhisperingDandelions said:

Kares said:

C-Note absolutely should be included in his official albums discography. The thing is, the whole perception of live albums being some "second rate" material originates from typical, run-of-the-mill pop artists, who can only (at best) reproduce what they already released on their studio albums, especially when they use prerecorded tracks at their concerts too, as typically they don't have anything new to say musically, so naturally their "live" albums don't count as new material.
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For real musicians it is a totally different case. They create new music – whether in the studio or on stage, and often it doesn't even matter what "songs" they play, they might be old hits, covers or new compositions, they will play it differently every night, thus their live albums ARE important parts of their discography – see Miles Davis, for example: would you want to exclude 'Agharta' or 'Pangaea' from his catalog just because they were recorded in front of an audience? I know I wouldn't.
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So yes, 'C-Note' does belong to the core discography – and so does Crystal Ball and The Vault OF4S too! They are first releases of that material! They are albums put together by P, regardless of when those songs were recorded.
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To be honest, I don't really care they're not albums in the traditional sense, but I also consider some of P's single/EP releases to be part of his core catalog too, as they are just as important as his albums: The War and One Song, for example, are unique, original releases that were never part of any albums, and their constant omission from the core discographies undermines their importance.
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[Edited 8/2/23 22:31pm]

co-sign on the last part. Yeah, 'The War' is definitely more of an EP.

I'm even a step more extreme because I believe all his songwriting work needs to be considered "part" of his official discog. It's all important and enhances perspective on what accomplished while he was here. Only focusing on "Prince" albums is going to omit hundreds of Prince songs.

As for Crystal Ball/Old Friends 4 Sale, all bands/artists usually have like a "beat the bootleggers" compilation of rando tracks culled from previous album sessions. They're all compilations, still. I'm not saying they're unimportant, but they're compilations. You sorta maybe might kinda be working toward a point noting they are the "first releases" of material--except some of it was already released, "Good Love" on Bright Lights, Big City OST "She Spoke to Me" on Girl 6, "5 Women" already given to Kenny Rogers, all the remixes of stuff already established. Including Crystal Ball/OF4S in the official album oeuvre is a microstep away from including Girl 6 in as a "Prince album".

And it's controversial to invoke the "what Prince would want" card, but genuinely I do not believe he'd want Crystal Ball or something with "The Vault" in the literal title to be considered part of his proper "albums" discog. It's why he included 'The Truth' with Crystal Ball--there's your new album with your Vault comp.

Also didn't WB compile/sequence OF4S?

[Edited 8/3/23 0:14am]

I would say it's a rather large step to group Girl 6 in with CB/OF4S - the latter two contained a majority of previously unreleased music. Girl 6 had a couple of new tracks amongst primarily already available material.

IanRG said:

Kares said:

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The "Ahdio Shows" were podcasts. Sure, they included new material, but I consider their inclusion previews. Sometime artists preview yet to be released material at discos (as P himself often did before!) or in radio shows, but we don't consider those proper releases.
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Graffiti Bridge is a Prince album – it is HIS sole concept, material, production, even if it features a couple of other vocalists too (see 'Supernatural', for example). Again, it is not a 'compilation' as it is all new (previously unreleased) material.
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Re the Ahdio shows: Yes, that is what I is said - your position is arguably able to be held - they can be seen as podcasts before the first podcasts. However, as podcasts did not exist then and they are not the same as a live preview performance at a disco or a preview play on radio, they can just as arguably be seen as releases.

Why can they be seen as releases? They are studio versions, not live versions - they are as they appeared on the latter compilation albums. The artist and body releasing them were paid for the NPGMC releases. They intended that the buyer was legally able to replay these as many times as they liked - which you cannot do with a disco or radio preview because they were not transitory plays at disco or as previews on live radio.

When you refer to your opinion as "we", is this the Royal "we"?

Re Graffiti Bidge: Again you are missing my point - It does not matter how many times you point out that it is not a compilation of previously released songs because this is not what I said - There is a difference between:

- a compilation of previously released songs (like 2004 The Chocolate Invasion and Slaughterhouse releases of songs people paid for in 2001 and 2002), and

- a compilation of not previously released songs from a movie. Graffiti Bridge IS different from Purple Rain because more than 1/3rd of the songs are attributed by Prince himself as duets or songs by other artists. Prince deliberately made sure that for Purple Rain the songs on his album did not include the other songs by other artists in the movie even though they were also HIS sole concept, material and productions.

[Edited 8/3/23 14:08pm]

The Ahdio Shows are podcasts - the term just hadn't been coined yet!

leecaldon said:

IanRG said:

Re the Ahdio shows: Yes, that is what I is said - your position is arguably able to be held - they can be seen as podcasts before the first podcasts. However, as podcasts did not exist then and they are not the same as a live preview performance at a disco or a preview play on radio, they can just as arguably be seen as releases.

Why can they be seen as releases? They are studio versions, not live versions - they are as they appeared on the latter compilation albums. The artist and body releasing them were paid for the NPGMC releases. They intended that the buyer was legally able to replay these as many times as they liked - which you cannot do with a disco or radio preview because they were not transitory plays at disco or as previews on live radio.

When you refer to your opinion as "we", is this the Royal "we"?

Re Graffiti Bidge: Again you are missing my point - It does not matter how many times you point out that it is not a compilation of previously released songs because this is not what I said - There is a difference between:

- a compilation of previously released songs (like 2004 The Chocolate Invasion and Slaughterhouse releases of songs people paid for in 2001 and 2002), and

- a compilation of not previously released songs from a movie. Graffiti Bridge IS different from Purple Rain because more than 1/3rd of the songs are attributed by Prince himself as duets or songs by other artists. Prince deliberately made sure that for Purple Rain the songs on his album did not include the other songs by other artists in the movie even though they were also HIS sole concept, material and productions.

[Edited 8/3/23 14:08pm]

The Ahdio Shows are podcasts - the term just hadn't been coined yet!

Which leaves people obsessed with their own determined rules as to what others should be allowed to consider a release with the problem that all the new songs that people paid for with their subscription in 2001/02 (other than TRC) therefore have no intended "core album" at the time they were released. Just to make it worse - the later compilation albums of these previously released songs were also only available by subscription that is no longer available or then via Tidal streaming.

My point is: It simply does not matter, we can all make up our own rules and accept other people's opinions because it is each to their own. This is especially when you have to retrofit future concepts or inconsistencies just to fit these songs in somewhere.

P.S. Remember this is not for a formal discography, but advice on playlist for a person seeking to play songs in order.

[Edited 8/5/23 14:04pm]