WhisperingDandelions said:

lurker316 said:

WhisperingDandelions said:

He was going for an androgynous name like the "It's Pat!" character/movie from SNL in the early 90s.

An elaboration/expansion/evolution of the themes/concept found in the lyrics of "Vagina".

[Edited 7/14/23 19:25pm]

No, he wasn’t. Re-read the last several posts.

Yeah,.. eh..., script/concept is a multimedia elaboration and all, but it still seems like the use of the effect, the kind of tracks it was used on, it still seems like he was going for androgynity.

Maybe the character wasn't really androgynous, but he was trying to bait that misinterpretation a bit, much like he was doing in many facets of his early career, even though Prince famz all over will correct, "oh, his music always clearly heterosexual," "he was always singing about women,"... he was still prancing around in high heels and thong though, c'mon, he was trying to play with interpretation a bit.

Like the org can correct "If I Was Your Girlfriend" is clearly about a male seeking a more intimate emotional relationship with his girlfriend like a best friend all over the internet--he definitely was again trying to play with / bait that misinterpretation using that Camille voice on such a song concept.

Maybe just a manifestation of criticisms he felt he was unjusty getting himself ("skinny muthafucka with the high voice"), because like discussions of what/who "Victor" was, and how again famz will correct the internet, "The Kid wasn't Prince, The Kid was just a story, Prince's mom wasn't white," when now we got young Prince on tape starting the biracial rumor himself, seems like Camille's yet another allegory to himself yet again, and of course Camille's "real" background isn't pertaining to any "real" androdyny in the mythos of Prince or Victor or Camille or Tora Tora or etc. etc...

Then they got him calling other people Camille. Seems like a work in progress... much like the fambase's penchant for treating discarded rough drafts as indisputable Prince fact.

[Edited 7/16/23 16:57pm]

WhisperingDandelions said:

lurker316 said:

WhisperingDandelions said: No, he wasn’t. Re-read the last several posts.

Yeah,.. eh..., script/concept is a multimedia elaboration and all, but it still seems like the use of the effect, the kind of tracks it was used on, it still seems like he was going for androgynity.

Maybe the character wasn't really androgynous, but he was trying to bait that misinterpretation a bit, much like he was doing in many facets of his early career, even though Prince famz all over will correct, "oh, his music always clearly heterosexual," "he was always singing about women,"... he was still prancing around in high heels and thong though, c'mon, he was trying to play with interpretation a bit.

Like the org can correct "If I Was Your Girlfriend" is clearly about a male seeking a more intimate emotional relationship with his girlfriend like a best friend all over the internet--he definitely was again trying to play with / bait that misinterpretation using that Camille voice on such a song concept.

Maybe just a manifestation of criticisms he felt he was unjusty getting himself ("skinny muthafucka with the high voice"), because like discussions of what/who "Victor" was, and how again famz will correct the internet, "The Kid wasn't Prince, The Kid was just a story, Prince's mom wasn't white," when now we got young Prince on tape starting the biracial rumor himself, seems like Camille's yet another allegory to himself yet again, and of course Camille's "real" background isn't pertaining to any "real" androdyny in the mythos of Prince or Victor or Camille or Tora Tora or etc. etc...

Then they got him calling other people Camille. Seems like a work in progress... much like the fambase's penchant for treating discarded rough drafts as indisputable Prince fact.

[Edited 7/16/23 16:57pm]

I can believe he was baiting.

Yes, it can be seen as like his stage clothes - He said the girls loved it but the boys hated it. As I said above, he liked messing with the "Tipper Gore" types and the "perhaps he could be one us after all" types. But ultimately, regardless of this, he was always clearly heterosexual and did it for the girls and to stand out as not just a small weedy guy. It is no different from all straight Glam rockers "prancing" about before him and people like Alice Cooper and Bowie (who later regretted his lie when he said he was gay).

So to clarify your statement I would instead say about the choice of the name Camille: "He was going for something that can only be a man's name but one that would mess with those who look too shallowly or try to buttonhole him." Just like those who misinterpret IIWYGF one way or the other. I think Miles Davis had it right - He cultivated his image to overcome his small stature and high voice, to standout, and yet get away with what others could not.

Maybe he was referring to Camille Cosby all along.

ilocketalyssaVA said:

Maybe he was referring to Camille Cosby all along.

Would he have describe her the way he described Camille, ie as a psychedlic pimplike man with only gorgeuos women around him to serve him while he was chasing a unreachable woman?

Would a person upon whom Clair Huxtable is based, be represented by the characters in the Camille songs?

IanRG said:

ilocketalyssaVA said:

Maybe he was referring to Camille Cosby all along.

Would he have describe her the way he described Camille, ie as a psychedlic pimplike man with only gorgeuos women around him to serve him while he was chasing a unreachable woman?

Would a person upon whom Clair Huxtable is based, be represented by the characters in the Camille songs?

I don't know about all of that, I just saw the name similiarity.

Adding to your questions, how do we know anything about the characters from the music? Did the live performances serve to conjure up the imagary or did the songs directly reference the alter ego?

I sense you took offense to what I said by comparing the two Camilles. I have way more respect than to make the comparison that you did, even by suggestion.

I recently thought about the span of Prince's career and I think he deliberately wanted people to dislike him. I think he wanted to please himself with his musical abilities but I think he really intentionally wanted people to dislike him. I think he was super into "check this out" but look deeper, so if it seems wack reverse it.

I always thought of Claire's name spelled with an "e".

I never thought Mrs. Huxtable was based on Camille Cosby.

Again - just saw the name and didn't get more into it than that. I know about Camille (completely typing that with a smirk on my face).

[Edited 7/16/23 20:20pm]

WhisperingDandelions said:

He was going for an androgynous name like the "It's Pat!" character/movie from SNL in the early 90s.

An elaboration/expansion/evolution of the themes/concept found in the lyrics of "Vagina".

[Edited 7/14/23 19:25pm]

I'm literally the ONLY PERSON IN THE WORLD who can think of the state of VIRGINIA when I see something about naming Vanity "Vagina".

ilocketalyssaVA said:

IanRG said:

Would he have describe her the way he described Camille, ie as a psychedlic pimplike man with only gorgeuos women around him to serve him while he was chasing a unreachable woman?

Would a person upon whom Clair Huxtable is based, be represented by the characters in the Camille songs?

I don't know about all of that, I just saw the name similiarity.

Adding to your questions, how do we know anything about the characters from the music? Did the live performances serve to conjure up the imagary or did the songs directly reference the alter ego?

I sense you took offense to what I said by comparing the two Camilles. I have way more respect than to make the comparison that you did, even by suggestion.

I recently thought about the span of Prince's career and I think he deliberately wanted people to dislike him. I think he wanted to please himself with his musical abilities but I think he really intentionally wanted people to dislike him. I think he was super into "check this out" but look deeper, so if it seems wack reverse it.

I always thought of Claire's name spelled with an "e".

I never thought Mrs. Huxtable was based on Camille Cosby.

Again - just saw the name and didn't get more into it than that. I know about Camille (completely typing that with a smirk on my face).

[Edited 7/16/23 20:20pm]

We can know about the personas muscians take on because they talk about them, radio DJ, fans, music mag reporters etc ask the artists or the record company or PR people about the new personas or releases or developments in the sounds and performances or influences.

No offense was taken. I do, however, have no idea what you think was disrespectful. If you mean how others have relayed what Prince said about his Camille persona or that Clair is based on Mrs Crosby, I don't see any disrespect. All I was doing was showing that Camille is nothing like Mrs Huxtable or Mrs Crosby.

Link to a source that it is Clair and she is based on Mrs Crosby.

PJMcGee said:

Let's not forget when he told Oprah that he had multiple personalities, at least one of which was female. When Chris Rock practically begged him to say the feminine stuff was a gimmick, and he said it was just who he was. Something much deeper than an elaborate plan to woo women, or fashionable androgyny.

Possibly.

It is equally possible that this was just part of how he always liked to mess with people's minds - including especially Oprah's audience. The Chris Rock quote is easily understood as Prince telling Chris that Prince doing Prince is not just a gimmick, but it is him being himself - a physically small and shy man who learned long ago that to get attention, the girls and be noticed as a schoolboy and then a musician, he needed to stand out.

The question is: Is Camille a reflection of a female personality or was the mention of female personalities just to mess with the Oprah audience? If so, why did he pick a (french)man's name? Why did he describe that this persona as a man who has no problem attracting women but can't get an unobtainable woman? Does IIWYGF reflect what Prince said about the Camille persona or that he felt that part of him was a woman? Hint The song is about a man struggling with having lost his girlfriend who is now unobtainable.

PJMcGee said:

Come on, Ian. You can't look at the totality of the man's life and say he wasn't gender fluid to an extent. From the child who sported a silky scarf on picture day to, well, most everything else. And you don't mess with Oprah's mind on the Oprah show. She's one of the richest, most powerful and influential celebrities on the planet. (Well, in 1996 she was at least well on her way.) Nor do you mess with Chris, another iconic black superstar. And Prince didn't give Chris an elaborate tale about getting attention. He just said his femininity was not for show. It was intrinsic, who he was. The clueless journalists from earlier in Prince's career? Those are the people for whom you would spin a tale. As far as how all that relates to Camille, well that's all part of Prince's art. A rabbit hole I won't be diving into here.

Come on, PJ.

This thread is not about whether you want to believe he was gender fluid or not, but about why he chose the name Camille. You cannot overlook what Prince said about Camille and the songs written for that persona to question why he wore a silky scarf as a child and other clothes later on.

There has not been a single performer on Oprah's various shows who has not been there to push their agenda. She was never known to be an investigative journalist or to callout performers when they sprouted their lines to create an image, promote a show, a change, whatever. She literally had Dr Phil as a regular segment and promoted his show, so don't tell me about how her wealth gave her power and integrity.

You need to watch the MTV 1997 Chris Rock interview: Prince tells him staight up specifically about the androgyny thing that he was not exploring to find his sexual identity, and passed it off, not as androgyny, but just being a Gemini and literally that it was also part of the act for show, passing this off as being normal in rock and roll.

[Edited 7/17/23 20:44pm]

PJMcGee said:

So what agenda was he pushing on Oprah when he said he was part female? How would that help him sell records in America in 1996? Don't tell me that American women would be signing up for that. I guess I do have to rewatch the Chris Rock show from 1997. All I remember is Chris saying Come on, that was an act, all that feminine stuff. And Prince replying, no, that's just who I am. And Chris looking quite disheartened. And I think the whole Camille thing is complicated, but I thought his own admission of femininity added to the discussion. By the way, I asked a French friend about Camille, and he said it was both male and female. I thought the different genders would be spelled differently, but he said no.

The agenda he pushed over the whole of his career is no different from what he pushed on Oprah. That always was that he messed with people especially the "Tipper Gore" types and the "Perhaps he could be one of us afterall" types. Surely you have heard songs like Controversy and, crucially for this conversation on Camille, IIWYGF and how these messed with people's minds? Those so easily messed with are often not listening to Prince in any depth.

Except, just as no performer has ever feared messing with Oprah just because she is rich, Prince did not say he was part female. What he said was that he had multiple personalities and at least one of these is female. He is not saying he has multiple personality disorder including an unknown number of women, he is saying that he is complicated and can have a bit of a feminine side (perhaps just 1 personality out of multiple ones).

Whether other people use the French name as a woman's name is irrelevant. Lots of French men use it as a man's name. Which one could Prince possibly mean? He made it very clear that Camille was a man by his explanations of the stage/song character/album persona and by the words of the Camille songs.

PJMcGee said:

Actually, I remember Oprah bringing it up. It wasn't Prince's agenda. I think she mentioned rumors about his sexuality, and that's when he said, Whatever floats your boat.

That response is perfectly in line with how Prince always answered this question - It worked for his agenda for those so easily distracted - It is like "silly people can think what they want, it has no impact on me". It is messing with the "Tipper Gore" types and the "Perhaps he could be one of us afterall" types at the same time with the one answer.

IanRG said:

SquirrelMeat said:

But there is no Camille 'voice'. It was always a persona, never a vocal style.

It started as a vocal effect and became a persona that used it for an album of the same name that was never released.

[Edited 7/13/23 17:16pm]

So you think Automatic is Camille?

SquirrelMeat said:

IanRG said:

It started as a vocal effect and became a persona that used it for an album of the same name that was never released.

[Edited 7/13/23 17:16pm]

So you think Automatic is Camille?

No, it started as vocal effect and was later used as part of a persona for the stage and an unreleased album. Prior to this as far as we know it was not known as Camille.