lust said:

Cool lyric. A truly great social commentator at times! [Edited 6/25/22 20:45pm]

He was generally pretty uninformed about politics and a dilettante at best. Living a secluded lifestyle surrounded by people who are afraid to tell you something that might upset you doesn't typically lend itself to self-awareness, much less an awareness of the complexities of other humans and their completely different misconceptions. Prince was also easily misled by conspiracy theorists and the chemtrails nonsense on Tavis Smiley sounded EXACTLY like the garbage Alex Jones was spouting at the time.

As for the lyric, it's absolutely true. No fault there. It's a little like saying the sky is blue, but I applaud the simple truths as much as the more complex realizations. I think that song is pretty clever overall and I'm happy we can both agree on that.

rockford said:

lust said:

Cool lyric. A truly great social commentator at times! [Edited 6/25/22 20:45pm]

He was generally pretty uninformed about politics and a dilettante at best. Living a secluded lifestyle surrounded by people who are afraid to tell you something that might upset you doesn't typically lend itself to self-awareness, much less an awareness of the complexities of other humans and their completely different misconceptions. Prince was also easily misled by conspiracy theorists and the chemtrails nonsense on Tavis Smiley sounded EXACTLY like the garbage Alex Jones was spouting at the time.

As for the lyric, it's absolutely true. No fault there. It's a little like saying the sky is blue, but I applaud the simple truths as much as the more complex realizations. I think that song is pretty clever overall and I'm happy we can both agree on that.

I agree that he was misled by the conspiracy nonsense at times but I disagree that he was uninformed politically. You can kind of see the trajectory of it starting with his record label battles (maybe even before that) up until almost the end. Plus there are numerous stories about how much of a newsie he was as told by band members and others and how that practise seeped into his songwriting.

its not necessarily about him being uniformed, more that he didnt really create many great songs from his politcal beliefs. SOTT for example is jsut a list of fucked up things happening but he makes it into something musically strong. we march, less so. even free, you could see it as a politically minded/patriotically minded song (contradicts the line quoted in this post a bit though) that is quite naive, but its just a great tune. same for ronnie talk to russia. i kind of like family name, i think that at least had a target. but a lot of the later songs, they were just a bit rambly, or kinda saying stuff thats been said a million times in a not very interesting way, not lyrically, or musically.

rockford said:

lust said:

Cool lyric. A truly great social commentator at times! [Edited 6/25/22 20:45pm]

He was generally pretty uninformed about politics and a dilettante at best. Living a secluded lifestyle surrounded by people who are afraid to tell you something that might upset you doesn't typically lend itself to self-awareness, much less an awareness of the complexities of other humans and their completely different misconceptions. Prince was also easily misled by conspiracy theorists and the chemtrails nonsense on Tavis Smiley sounded EXACTLY like the garbage Alex Jones was spouting at the time.

As for the lyric, it's absolutely true. No fault there. It's a little like saying the sky is blue, but I applaud the simple truths as much as the more complex realizations. I think that song is pretty clever overall and I'm happy we can both agree on that.

lol......Prince was well informed about a lot of things.

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

its not necessarily about him being uniformed, more that he didnt really create many great songs from his politcal beliefs. SOTT for example is jsut a list of fucked up things happening but he makes it into something musically strong. we march, less so. even free, you could see it as a politically minded/patriotically minded song (contradicts the line quoted in this post a bit though) that is quite naive, but its just a great tune. same for ronnie talk to russia. i kind of like family name, i think that at least had a target. but a lot of the later songs, they were just a bit rambly, or kinda saying stuff thats been said a million times in a not very interesting way, not lyrically, or musically.

I think Ronnie, Talk To Russia is a great example of his political awareness. The lyrics aren't over expansive but the 80s was rife with fears of the end of the world due to nuclear proliferation and it's clearly evident in this song.

rockford said:

lust said:

Cool lyric. A truly great social commentator at times! [Edited 6/25/22 20:45pm]

He was generally pretty uninformed about politics and a dilettante at best. Living a secluded lifestyle surrounded by people who are afraid to tell you something that might upset you doesn't typically lend itself to self-awareness, much less an awareness of the complexities of other humans and their completely different misconceptions. Prince was also easily misled by conspiracy theorists and the chemtrails nonsense on Tavis Smiley sounded EXACTLY like the garbage Alex Jones was spouting at the time.

As for the lyric, it's absolutely true. No fault there. It's a little like saying the sky is blue, but I applaud the simple truths as much as the more complex realizations. I think that song is pretty clever overall and I'm happy we can both agree on that.

Spot on.

Agree.

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Prince needed religion unfortunately to try to understand the bigest lonely part of his secluded life, alone at the top.

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What I like about the podcast accompanying the ''Prince and The Revolution: Live!'' release, is the acceptable stories being told by the band members and management.

He wanted so hard and so badly to be at the top, what resulted in his immediate self-exclusion from his own band mates/friends + the behaviour, the seperate limo, hotels, etc. These stories fit the whole picture. It is what makes him mere human (to me).

Sure he wanted to grow, but as a 26 year old he went way up high too fast at some point.

Thinking he was right in everything he thought and decdied, which of course partly IS true. But certainly not all. He missed a couple of side paths in his life I believe, and closed a lot of doors too - (all in my humble opinion of course).

Glad to hear these inside stories by the people that were there when it all hit off so fast for all of them. Now more than ever, these stories are important.

[Edited 6/27/22 13:55pm]

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

its not necessarily about him being uniformed, more that he didnt really create many great songs from his politcal beliefs. SOTT for example is jsut a list of fucked up things happening but he makes it into something musically strong. we march, less so. even free, you could see it as a politically minded/patriotically minded song (contradicts the line quoted in this post a bit though) that is quite naive, but its just a great tune. same for ronnie talk to russia. i kind of like family name, i think that at least had a target. but a lot of the later songs, they were just a bit rambly, or kinda saying stuff thats been said a million times in a not very interesting way, not lyrically, or musically.

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Cinnamon Girl, Dear Mr Man, United States of Division, Baltimore, the quote above from Call my name - All interesting, non-rambling, and not just repeating what had been said a million times before. How many songs looked at the US response to 9/11 as a trigger for radicalising youth before Cinnamon Girl?

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The topic is not about that you don't like his later stuff - that topic is played to death here.

IanRG said:

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

its not necessarily about him being uniformed, more that he didnt really create many great songs from his politcal beliefs. SOTT for example is jsut a list of fucked up things happening but he makes it into something musically strong. we march, less so. even free, you could see it as a politically minded/patriotically minded song (contradicts the line quoted in this post a bit though) that is quite naive, but its just a great tune. same for ronnie talk to russia. i kind of like family name, i think that at least had a target. but a lot of the later songs, they were just a bit rambly, or kinda saying stuff thats been said a million times in a not very interesting way, not lyrically, or musically.

.

Cinnamon Girl, Dear Mr Man, United States of Division, Baltimore, the quote above from Call my name - All interesting, non-rambling, and not just repeating what had been said a million times before. How many songs looked at the US response to 9/11 as a trigger for radicalising youth before Cinnamon Girl?

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The topic is not about that you don't like his later stuff - that topic is played to death here.

Great examples. The man clearly was politically aware.

onlyforaminute said:

idk about cinnamon girl being the first song to cover that (im sure theres a few hip hop tracks that did) but thats a good track, forgot about that one.

in short, prince had some good political songs, some bad ones.

just cos a song tries to say something important though, doesnt mean its good.

i do prefer songs like cinnnamon girl rather than something like born 2 die where the tone is very typically of a certain kind of 'socially conscious message song' mode (and yes i like curtis mayfield)

[Edited 6/28/22 4:47am]

[Edited 6/28/22 5:23am]

i would actually say princes most political statements were in fact musical, not lyrical.

everything he stood for, meant, wanted to get across, was in the music.

music was his battlefield.

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

i would actually say princes most political statements were in fact musical, not lyrical.

everything he stood for, meant, wanted to get across, was in the music.

music was his battlefield.

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I cannot disagree more.

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Prince has used from day one his music to attract his audience and his lyrics (in many songs) to make his point. He used tricks and enticements to encourage his audience to engage with his lyrics and not just the music.

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Sometimes blatantly like "Controversy" where this word is repeated.

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Sometimes with word play like "If I was your girlfriend".

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Prince's 1999 would be just a dance track like Charlie XCX's 1999 but the lyrics make it an anti-war and anti-nuke song. Without seeing the lyrics as Prince's battlefield, you are just skimming the surface and could easily think "Sister" is not the anti-incest / anti-childhood sexual abuse song that it is.

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I would actually say that Prince's political statements are in his political statements in the lyrics and without his lyrics it is like "What? No flash again?"

i dont really disagree on those examples of his lyrics being important there, but when we talk about prince and politics with a capital P, we are usually talking about things like what he addresses on welcome to america, or race, not stuff like IIWYG or even controversy which is more about his own identity. but what i mean is that the battlefield was really defined by what prince did as a black artist in the context of what was expected of black artists (by and large), and i think a lot of his motivation for his musical choices was partly just cos he loved lots of diff styles and genres, but also it was his fight against being stereotyped, or placed in a box, or musically ghettoised, i think it was a very concious thing. he was aware from day one, of what to say (eg what was left out of songs like jerk out when they got released), but more than that, of what to play, so he wouldnt be stuck in R&B purgatory. he knew the kind of career he wanted to have, and he knew that to get there, he couldnt just stick to his comfort zone. he had to push himself. he didnt make dirty mind just cos he was into grimey lo fi production or punky, new wave stuff, he knew that was waht would work to be taken seriously, to stick out, to show he wasnt just a soft R&B act. and he never sounded like that again, which makes you think he knew what the point of it was, but it wasnt necessarily his preferred sound. doesnt mean i think he was cold and calculating, just that he had his reasons. he was out to win, and knew how to play the politics of the music industry.

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

i dont really disagree on those examples of his lyrics being important there, but when we talk about prince and politics with a capital P, we are usually talking about things like what he addresses on welcome to america, or race, not stuff like IIWYG or even controversy which is more about his own identity. but what i mean is that the battlefield was really defined by what prince did as a black artist in the context of what was expected of black artists (by and large), and i think a lot of his motivation for his musical choices was partly just cos he loved lots of diff styles and genres, but also it was his fight against being stereotyped, or placed in a box, or musically ghettoised, i think it was a very concious thing. he was aware from day one, of what to say (eg what was left out of songs like jerk out when they got released), but more than that, of what to play, so he wouldnt be stuck in R&B purgatory. he knew the kind of career he wanted to have, and he knew that to get there, he couldnt just stick to his comfort zone. he had to push himself. he didnt make dirty mind just cos he was into grimey lo fi production or punky, new wave stuff, he knew that was waht would work to be taken seriously, to stick out, to show he wasnt just a soft R&B act. and he never sounded like that again, which makes you think he knew what the point of it was, but it wasnt necessarily his preferred sound. doesnt mean i think he was cold and calculating, just that he had his reasons. he was out to win, and knew how to play the politics of the music industry.

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You missed my point - Prince has ALWAYS used lyrics to make his point, whether it is political or not. His lyrical approach uses encouragements and enticements for people to engage with what he is saying whether it is about race, sex, gender, identity, religion, relationships, etc. Some of these will be overt political statements, some less so, very few do not seek to make a statement.

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You are seeking to dismiss his lyrics as subservient to imagined politics in his music. Imagined because that Prince always wanted to stand out and often explored different styles, instruments, arrangements throughout his career is not a political statement as you claimed - It was Prince seeking to stand out, not be buttonholed and because he was always looking for his next thing. Dirty Mind (album and song) is a progression that fits well within his developing sound, it is not a sound that was done once and dropped forever more. It is a stepping stone to Controversy and beyond.

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I disagree that Prince's "most political statements were in fact musical, not lyrical".

the thing is, making a point, versus making a political point, arent quite the same thing. unless you want to start arguing everything is political, and that head is in fact a song about challenging sexual mores, or maybe that little red corvette is about politics of pleasure focusing on sexual, perhaps incompatible speed between a couple ('baby you got to slow down'). perhaps play in the sunshine was an early statement on climate change, a call to play in the sunshine before rising temperatures make it impossible.

i am not seeking to diminish his lyrics, i am seeking to diminish the idea that he has plenty of great songs with a political bent.

did prince write many excellent lines? without a doubt. did he sometimes address important issues (veganism for example on animal kingdom, to use a less obvious one)? yes. do i consider him a great 'political commentator'? im not sure. i never really bought it, barring a few songs that feature good social commentary like money dont matter tonight. but then ive never been able to quite reconcile the earlier prince of uptown with the doomsday prophesising prince of days of wild or the later prince of avalanche. compare dangelo songs like devils pie or charade (im using these as examples from an R&B artist working in the same period) to prince's later political songs and you can see the difference.

as for 'imagined', how can it be imagined when the man himself said things like:

I was brought up in a black and white world. I dig black and white; night and day, rich and poor, man and woman. I listen to all kinds of music and I want to be judged on the quality of my work, not on what I say, nor on what people claim I am, nor on the color of my skin.

[Edited 7/2/22 2:28am]

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

the thing is, making a point, versus making a political point, arent quite the same thing. unless you want to start arguing everything is political, and that head is in fact a song about challenging sexual mores, or maybe that little red corvette is about politics of pleasure focusing on sexual, perhaps incompatible speed between a couple ('baby you got to slow down'). perhaps play in the sunshine was an early statement on climate change, a call to play in the sunshine before rising temperatures make it impossible.

i am not seeking to diminish his lyrics, i am seeking to diminish the idea that he has plenty of great songs with a political bent.

did prince write many excellent lines? without a doubt. did he sometimes address important issues (veganism for example on animal kingdom, to use a less obvious one)? yes. do i consider him a great 'political commentator'? im not sure. i never really bought it, barring a few songs that feature good social commentary like money dont matter tonight. but then ive never been able to quite reconcile the earlier prince of uptown with the doomsday prophesising prince of days of wild or the later prince of avalanche. compare dangelo songs like devils pie or charade (im using these as examples from an R&B artist working in the same period) to prince's later political songs and you can see the difference.

as for 'imagined', how can it be imagined when the man himself said things like:

I was brought up in a black and white world. I dig black and white; night and day, rich and poor, man and woman. I listen to all kinds of music and I want to be judged on the quality of my work, not on what I say, nor on what people claim I am, nor on the color of my skin.

[Edited 7/2/22 2:28am]

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Within this post you defeat your own argument.

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The point Prince made in the quote is just what I said - he was not making any political point by making music, his non-political point was that he just wanted to be judged on the quality of this work, he just did not want to be buttonholed or classified - It is you who is imagining his music was, instead, a political statement, not me. I said it is not - he just wanted to stand out and be recognised for the quality of his work.

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There is absolutely nothing political in this, so I still disagree with your claim that Prince's "most political statements were in fact musical, not lyrical".

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However, when he made a song or lyric with political or social commentary, it was absolutely a song or lyric with political or social commentary and you don't have to imagine some obscure garbage argument as in your LRC and Play in the Sunshine examples to make it so - I never made such silly assertions. There were many great songs by Prince with political or social commentary - some were great regardless of the commentary, some because of the commentary - IMHO all were much better than Devil's Pie and Charade (and once more, The topic is not about that you don't like his later stuff - that topic is played to death here.)

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Frankly, I really have no interest in seeking to change you mind about your opinion of songs. The above is your opinion and it has no more weight or validity than mine or anyone else's. The OP's claim was Prince could be a truly great social commentator at times, not political - you need to understand that social commentary is not necessarily political commentary. What is to reconcile? If Prince's political and social commentary showed no growth or change from Uptown to Baltimore, then you really could say Prince was out of touch - By 2015 the threat of nuclear war with the Soviet Union had passed and the focus of Baltimore was the death of Freddie Gray and the resulting riots.

[Edited 7/2/22 14:32pm]