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Thread started 06/22/22 12:35pm

johnnieb

Prince's Jazz Fusion music

I really think the Estate should start a separate imprint / label for Prince's jazz efforts. Why, becuase 2 things?

1) I think the casual Prince fan and new Prince fan won't really sink into that stuff, so I don't think it would be a big seller so the incentive is not there for the estate.

2) The estate can have a separate team working on digging through the vault and find The Flesh Sessions, Madhouse, Munich cafe, other live jazz sets andshelved projects etc. and getting an actual Jazz Mastering person to remaster the tracks and put them out on the "Prince Jazz" label to the jazz community and partnet with a label like Blue Note or something.

A lot of his jazz work is stellar and deserves to be treated well, and pushing it into the jazz world would be highly profitable I think then if they put it out to the mainstream pop world.

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Reply #1 posted 06/22/22 12:40pm

trickyjoe7777

Great idea, and so it won't happen sadly

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Reply #2 posted 06/22/22 2:49pm

mb71

avatar

johnnieb said:

1) I think the casual Prince fan and new Prince fan won't really sink into that stuff, so I don't think it would be a big seller so the incentive is not there for the estate.

Yeah, but it should be available for nutters like us.
Make this stuff available as downloads, maybe with limited edition cd's and vinyl for the physical heads.

Bandcamp would be perfect for such a venture.

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Reply #3 posted 06/22/22 4:04pm

GustavoRibas

avatar

Unfortunately, most Prince fans don´t care about his jazzy efforts much and I m not sure if Prince´s jazzy stuff would be respected by most jazz cats.

.

But I really love his instrumental/jazz funk. I would love the Estate to release this stuff for specific fans, even if available as downloads on a site.

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Reply #4 posted 06/23/22 7:24am

johnnieb

GustavoRibas said:

Unfortunately, most Prince fans don´t care about his jazzy efforts much and I m not sure if Prince´s jazzy stuff would be respected by most jazz cats.

.

But I really love his instrumental/jazz funk. I would love the Estate to release this stuff for specific fans, even if available as downloads on a site.

There is enough jazz fans out there that I think Jazz by Prince would have an audience. Even if the releases are only Record Store Day limited releases at firest. I just think that if a completely separate team working on it so that they don't have to wait for the mainstream releases.

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Reply #5 posted 06/23/22 7:29am

JoeyCococo

i am just hopeful we see Madhouse 8 ( and 16) released with a fantastic remaster --as good as the one they did for SOTT. I think it's probably his greatest display of virtuoso playing on drums and bass......and, we can barely hear it.

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Reply #6 posted 06/23/22 7:40am

rockford

johnnieb said:

GustavoRibas said:

Unfortunately, most Prince fans don´t care about his jazzy efforts much and I m not sure if Prince´s jazzy stuff would be respected by most jazz cats.

.

But I really love his instrumental/jazz funk. I would love the Estate to release this stuff for specific fans, even if available as downloads on a site.

There is enough jazz fans out there that I think Jazz by Prince would have an audience. Even if the releases are only Record Store Day limited releases at firest. I just think that if a completely separate team working on it so that they don't have to wait for the mainstream releases.

You would think, but Prince wasn't good at jazz. Not even a little. His "jazz" is no different than his "classical" music: the scribblings of a dilettante. Prince was amazing, but he wasn't amazing at everything. Art is subjective and you and many other may very well love his instrumental music. Calling him a jazz artist - meaning he could hop on the bandstand with a jazz band, hang with them, and play any number of jazz standards - is silly. He made instrumental music that couold best be described as funk with some jazz smells added. People like what they like and I'm glad you like Prince's instrumental music. I like some things on whatever that album was that had some violin. As much as I like it, it's still not jazz. Prince was not a jazz musician and more than he was a country and western musician. Being really great (perhaps the best), at a thing doesn't make you really great at all other things. Jimi Hendrix tried to play a sitar once. The story goes that he got so frustrated he tossed it across the studio and said, "Get that damned thing away from me." If Jimi Hendrix fans were like Prince fans they're say the noise of him tossing the sitar across the room was proof enough that he was a sitar master.

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Reply #7 posted 06/23/22 7:53am

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

he has a few good instrumental tunes. like those on the SOTT remaster for example.

madhouse would not be taken seriously by any jazz fan or musician however, sorry.

prince was good at working in jazz influences in his own music, but playing jazz, that is a whole different ballgame.

i guess he gave it a good shot later in his career when he felt his chops were sharper, but even then, he was a pop songwriter, not a jazz musician. people seem think just cos you can improvise a bit, you are a jazz musician. he did not dedicate his life to jazz, which is what most jazz musicians do. im not saying his jazz stuff isnt at all enjoyable, some of it is, but a lot of it is quite boring and not sophisticated compared to other actual jazz players.

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Reply #8 posted 06/23/22 8:58am

boomshaka

I would love to just have the Madhouse albums on streaming at the very least. I really enjoyed his approach to his instrumentals both in the 80's and later in the early 2000's. No it was not straight jazz but he combined Jazz and Funk in a way only he can. I dug it and as a choreographer I see a lot of dance to it. Hope this can become more accessible in the future!
[Edited 6/23/22 8:58am]
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Reply #9 posted 06/23/22 10:33am

johnnieb

rockford said:

johnnieb said:

There is enough jazz fans out there that I think Jazz by Prince would have an audience. Even if the releases are only Record Store Day limited releases at firest. I just think that if a completely separate team working on it so that they don't have to wait for the mainstream releases.

You would think, but Prince wasn't good at jazz. Not even a little. His "jazz" is no different than his "classical" music: the scribblings of a dilettante. Prince was amazing, but he wasn't amazing at everything. Art is subjective and you and many other may very well love his instrumental music. Calling him a jazz artist - meaning he could hop on the bandstand with a jazz band, hang with them, and play any number of jazz standards - is silly. He made instrumental music that couold best be described as funk with some jazz smells added. People like what they like and I'm glad you like Prince's instrumental music. I like some things on whatever that album was that had some violin. As much as I like it, it's still not jazz. Prince was not a jazz musician and more than he was a country and western musician. Being really great (perhaps the best), at a thing doesn't make you really great at all other things. Jimi Hendrix tried to play a sitar once. The story goes that he got so frustrated he tossed it across the studio and said, "Get that damned thing away from me." If Jimi Hendrix fans were like Prince fans they're say the noise of him tossing the sitar across the room was proof enough that he was a sitar master.

Even still, it's subjective. I think the Flesh session would be a nice RSD item, also C-Note and Madhouse remastered and on vinyl. But you are right, in that his jazz stuff was improv and not Jazz Master level stuff. But I think definantly good enough for audiences to listen and enjoy and not have them stuck in the vault becuase no money can be made from them. I think there is an anvenue that the Estate can take advantage of.

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Reply #10 posted 06/23/22 12:17pm

RJOrion

Lately i listen to N.E.W.S., Kamasutra, and Xpectation more than any other Prince albums...i think im starting to get old...besides, i always loved those albums despite people's criticisms about Prince's allegedly limited Jazz skills
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Reply #11 posted 06/23/22 12:19pm

johnnieb

RJOrion said:

Lately i listen to N.E.W.S., Kamasutra, and Xpectation more than any other Prince albums...i think im starting to get old...besides, i always loved those albums despite people's criticisms about Prince's allegedly limited Jazz skills

I really like N.E.W.S and would like to see it released in vinyl with maybe C-Note along for the ride.

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Reply #12 posted 06/23/22 8:32pm

GustavoRibas

avatar

rockford said:

johnnieb said:

There is enough jazz fans out there that I think Jazz by Prince would have an audience. Even if the releases are only Record Store Day limited releases at firest. I just think that if a completely separate team working on it so that they don't have to wait for the mainstream releases.

You would think, but Prince wasn't good at jazz. Not even a little. His "jazz" is no different than his "classical" music: the scribblings of a dilettante. Prince was amazing, but he wasn't amazing at everything. Art is subjective and you and many other may very well love his instrumental music. Calling him a jazz artist - meaning he could hop on the bandstand with a jazz band, hang with them, and play any number of jazz standards - is silly. He made instrumental music that couold best be described as funk with some jazz smells added. People like what they like and I'm glad you like Prince's instrumental music. I like some things on whatever that album was that had some violin. As much as I like it, it's still not jazz. Prince was not a jazz musician and more than he was a country and western musician. Being really great (perhaps the best), at a thing doesn't make you really great at all other things. Jimi Hendrix tried to play a sitar once. The story goes that he got so frustrated he tossed it across the studio and said, "Get that damned thing away from me." If Jimi Hendrix fans were like Prince fans they're say the noise of him tossing the sitar across the room was proof enough that he was a sitar master.

.

- I have to agree. I really love when Prince puts some jazz elements in his music - ´She spoke 2 me´ is one of my fave P tracks ever - but he wasn´t a jazz musician in the true sense of the word. Like somebody said, he didn´t dedicate his life to jazz, like jazz musicians do.

.

Eric Leeds said Brandford Marsalis liked Madhouse a lot. Prince could maybe please guys like funk with jazz elements, but not the ones who are searching for ´pure´ jazz.

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Reply #13 posted 06/24/22 3:40am

jazzz

.
Was Madhouse jazz? What is jazz... Ellington said: "There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind".
The music on Madhouse 8 was not so far removed from what Miles was doing at the time, and it certainly is jazzier than most of the music we hear at the major "jazz" festivals today.
Maybe the idiosyncracy of the Madhouse project, i.e. Prince's take on instrumental music, even had a certain influence on how the genre jazz would develop over the years to come.
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Reply #14 posted 06/24/22 4:04am

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

Maybe the idiosyncracy of the Madhouse project, i.e. Prince's take on instrumental music, even had a certain influence on how the genre jazz would develop over the years to come.

in the words of the great man himself, dont ever lose, dont ever lose, dont ever lose your dreeeeeams! biggrin

however...

Eric Leeds said Brandford Marsalis liked Madhouse a lot. Prince could maybe please guys like funk with jazz elements, but not the ones who are searching for ´pure´ jazz.

yeah i mean, he said roy hargrove was into it too. i can see hargrove being into madhouse as he makes stuff thats more neo-soul-jazz-funk, which is prob closer to where prince's jazz fusion stuff fits too. so while i think making too strong a case for prince being a brilliant jazz musician is maybe stretching it, i guess its fair to say he could dabble in it. i doubt he would say he was a real jazz musician but i like NEWS as not too intrusive poppy smooth jazz fusion. it was nominated for the Best Pop Instrumental Album grammy which is prob about right.

i think the 2 instrumental tracks on the SOTT SDE are maybe the best things he did in this mode just cos they show off what prince was brilliant at - composition and arranging. they are really tight and know when to change up between the sections. im not sure prince can really pull off long 14 min pieces like on NEWS, though i enjoy hearing them, just to hear him play a bit of guitar, and do something different to what he usually does. NEWS is more an album of extended jams and stretching out. almost like a live in the studio kind of thing.

[Edited 6/24/22 4:28am]

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Reply #15 posted 06/24/22 6:31am

Genesia

avatar

johnnieb said:

RJOrion said:

Lately i listen to N.E.W.S., Kamasutra, and Xpectation more than any other Prince albums...i think im starting to get old...besides, i always loved those albums despite people's criticisms about Prince's allegedly limited Jazz skills

I really like N.E.W.S and would like to see it released in vinyl with maybe C-Note along for the ride.


I still think Kamasutra sucks (that'll never change), but N.E.W.S is one of my favorites. It's the album I listen to most when I'm a) on a plane waiting for the beverage cart so I can get a cocktail (I'm not a good flier - claustrophobia) and b) when I have heavy writing to do at work.

We don’t mourn artists because we knew them. We mourn them because they helped us know ourselves.
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Reply #16 posted 06/24/22 8:10am

GustavoRibas

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yeah i mean, he said roy hargrove was into it too. i can see hargrove being into madhouse as he makes stuff thats more neo-soul-jazz-funk, which is prob closer to where prince's jazz fusion stuff fits too. so while i think making too strong a case for prince being a brilliant jazz musician is maybe stretching it, i guess its fair to say he could dabble in it. i doubt he would say he was a real jazz musician but i like NEWS as not too intrusive poppy smooth jazz fusion. it was nominated for the Best Pop Instrumental Album grammy which is prob about right.

i think the 2 instrumental tracks on the SOTT SDE are maybe the best things he did in this mode just cos they show off what prince was brilliant at - composition and arranging. they are really tight and know when to change up between the sections. im not sure prince can really pull off long 14 min pieces like on NEWS, though i enjoy hearing them, just to hear him play a bit of guitar, and do something different to what he usually does. NEWS is more an album of extended jams and stretching out. almost like a live in the studio kind of thing.

[Edited 6/24/22 4:28am]

.

Roy Hargrove was such an amazing artist. He could do traditional jazz, but his funk-jazz is amazing. I highly recommend his ´´RH Factor´ albums to any Prince fan who likes modern funk and musicianship.

.

About Prince, yes, his instrumental albums were cool (didnt like Xpectation much, but NEWS, Madhouse and C-Note have strong musicianship) and should be seen as ´funk instrumentals with a bit of jazz flavour´. Other guys did it in the past, like Kool and the Gang´s ´Kool Jazz´ being a good example. And there is a market for this kind of stuff. It´s only hard to try to convince a jazz musician that it´s jazz in the true sense of the word.

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Reply #17 posted 06/24/22 8:15am

Gooddoctor23

GustavoRibas said:

yeah i mean, he said roy hargrove was into it too. i can see hargrove being into madhouse as he makes stuff thats more neo-soul-jazz-funk, which is prob closer to where prince's jazz fusion stuff fits too. so while i think making too strong a case for prince being a brilliant jazz musician is maybe stretching it, i guess its fair to say he could dabble in it. i doubt he would say he was a real jazz musician but i like NEWS as not too intrusive poppy smooth jazz fusion. it was nominated for the Best Pop Instrumental Album grammy which is prob about right.

i think the 2 instrumental tracks on the SOTT SDE are maybe the best things he did in this mode just cos they show off what prince was brilliant at - composition and arranging. they are really tight and know when to change up between the sections. im not sure prince can really pull off long 14 min pieces like on NEWS, though i enjoy hearing them, just to hear him play a bit of guitar, and do something different to what he usually does. NEWS is more an album of extended jams and stretching out. almost like a live in the studio kind of thing.

[Edited 6/24/22 4:28am]

.

Roy Hargrove was such an amazing artist. He could do traditional jazz, but his funk-jazz is amazing. I highly recommend his ´´RH Factor´ albums to any Prince fan who likes modern funk and musicianship.

.

About Prince, yes, his instrumental albums were cool (didnt like Xpectation much, but NEWS, Madhouse and C-Note have strong musicianship) and should be seen as ´funk instrumentals with a bit of jazz flavour´. Other guys did it in the past, like Kool and the Gang´s ´Kool Jazz´ being a good example. And there is a market for this kind of stuff. It´s only hard to try to convince a jazz musician that it´s jazz in the true sense of the word.

Honestly........who cares about convincing jazz musicians of anything?

99.9% of everything u have been taught, is 99.9% B.S.
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Reply #18 posted 06/24/22 2:07pm

johnnieb

Gooddoctor23 said:

GustavoRibas said:

.

Roy Hargrove was such an amazing artist. He could do traditional jazz, but his funk-jazz is amazing. I highly recommend his ´´RH Factor´ albums to any Prince fan who likes modern funk and musicianship.

.

About Prince, yes, his instrumental albums were cool (didnt like Xpectation much, but NEWS, Madhouse and C-Note have strong musicianship) and should be seen as ´funk instrumentals with a bit of jazz flavour´. Other guys did it in the past, like Kool and the Gang´s ´Kool Jazz´ being a good example. And there is a market for this kind of stuff. It´s only hard to try to convince a jazz musician that it´s jazz in the true sense of the word.

Honestly........who cares about convincing jazz musicians of anything?

Ultimatley, I'd want the Estate to work on these separatly as they probably would not be BIG sellers in the Prince pop market, BUT targeting jazz/funk RSD relases etc ould be good. RSD because you don't have to make huge runs, 5000 2500 even 24,000 like TGE is a small investment to get other Prince music out there and into collectors hands ... and again not having to wait on these other releases to drop once or twice a year. We'd nevewr get to "alternantive" projects.

[Edited 6/24/22 14:08pm]

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Reply #19 posted 06/24/22 3:06pm

LILpoundCAKE

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JoeyCococo said:

i am just hopeful we see Madhouse 8 ( and 16) released with a fantastic remaster --as good as the one they did for SOTT. I think it's probably his greatest display of virtuoso playing on drums and bass......and, we can barely hear it.


yes, please! pray

and as far as this topic goes, I completely agree. that would be marvelous. I would want to own a copy of each and every one of those releases. I love his instrumental/jazzy projects.

"if U're lookin' 4 dirt look in Ur own back yard / plant some peace flowers in Ur warzone so I can fire my bodyguards."
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Reply #20 posted 06/24/22 4:36pm

GustavoRibas

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Gooddoctor23 said:

Honestly........who cares about convincing jazz musicians of anything?

.

- Well, since this topic is about releasing his jazzy stuff and how it would be appealing for this market, I just mentioned that it would probably please more his fans who like his instrumental music and those who like funk with touches of jazz.

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Reply #21 posted 06/24/22 9:40pm

onlyforaminute

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It'll be great for us who are not going to buy 75 versions of Purple Rain.
Time keeps on slipping into the future...


This moment is all there is...
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Reply #22 posted 06/25/22 1:45am

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

tbh the market for full releases of this stuff will be tiny ultimately.

i would, if i were the estate, compile a one disc set of the best prince instrumentals, as a way to convince the general music buying market that he could cut it in this field. it would also be an interesting compilation, just as a way to show off the best of a small part of his output.

what would be on it though, im not sure lol, except for (and some of these are doodles really but hey i like them):

Father's Song

Venus De Milo

Alexa De Paris

Visions (slightly cheating with this one)

Colors (and this one lol)

And That Says What?

It Ain’t Over ‘Til The Fat Lady Sings

Orgasm

Arobretum

The Plan

77 Beverly Park

Gamillah

[Edited 6/25/22 3:49am]

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Reply #23 posted 06/25/22 4:37am

Landonfunkmonk
ey

Not many good ideas on the org but this is one.

I would love to get a full Madhouse reissue plus the unreleased albums.


Also a release of a Flesh box set would be awesome.
[Edited 6/25/22 4:37am]
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Reply #24 posted 06/25/22 6:23am

RJOrion

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

tbh the market for full releases of this stuff will be tiny ultimately.



i would, if i were the estate, compile a one disc set of the best prince instrumentals, as a way to convince the general music buying market that he could cut it in this field. it would also be an interesting compilation, just as a way to show off the best of a small part of his output.



what would be on it though, im not sure lol, except for (and some of these are doodles really but hey i like them):



Father's Song


Venus De Milo


Alexa De Paris


Visions (slightly cheating with this one)


Colors (and this one lol)


And That Says What?


It Ain’t Over ‘Til The Fat Lady Sings


Orgasm


Arobretum


The Plan


77 Beverly Park


Gamillah




[Edited 6/25/22 3:49am]



No love for "2 Nigs United 4 West Compton"?
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Reply #25 posted 06/25/22 7:08am

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

i knew i forgot something!

that is better than both madhouse albums (i dont hate them though) combined.

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Reply #26 posted 06/25/22 11:00am

jazzz

.
Any love here for Eric Leeds first solo album (Times Squared)? It was supposed to be the third Madhouse album, and Prince is all over it. For me, not as strong as Madhouse 8, but I probably prefer it over Madhouse 16.
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Reply #27 posted 06/25/22 2:40pm

Gooddoctor23

jazzz said:

. Any love here for Eric Leeds first solo album (Times Squared)? It was supposed to be the third Madhouse album, and Prince is all over it. For me, not as strong as Madhouse 8, but I probably prefer it over Madhouse 16.

Love the album.

99.9% of everything u have been taught, is 99.9% B.S.
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Reply #28 posted 06/25/22 2:43pm

Gooddoctor23

Those live Madhouse sessions are GREAT. Soundboard 2.

99.9% of everything u have been taught, is 99.9% B.S.
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Reply #29 posted 06/25/22 4:30pm

LILpoundCAKE

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onlyforaminute said:

It'll be great for us who are not going to buy 75 versions of Purple Rain.


nod


"if U're lookin' 4 dirt look in Ur own back yard / plant some peace flowers in Ur warzone so I can fire my bodyguards."
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