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Thread started 06/14/22 11:51am

lurker316

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Josh Welton's role on HITNRUN PHASE ONE


I know Josh Welton is credited as producer on HITNRUN PHASE ONE, but I've always wondered how much control he truly had. On the one hand, much of the production sounds nothing like Prince and it seems obvious Josh's made a significant conribution. On the other hand, Prince could be a control freak so it's hard for me to imagine Prince not micro-managing.

I just watched a interview of Hannah discussing her time with Prince. She claims that HNR PHASE ONE was almost entirely Josh. She says:

"My husband actually produced this entire record from start to finish. And Prince hardly touched the music [on any] of these tracks. And that's a very rare thing, for Prince to not come in and really take over and add a lot musically. It says a lot about how he really trusted Joshua."

What does everyone think aout that? I realize Josh is her husband, so she could be embellishing or exaggerating his role. But at the same time, there's nothing to suggest her characterization isn't true. Have any specific production details emerged to verify or dispute her account?

Here's a link queued up to the part of the interview where Hannah makes these claims (the video is called 'What’s It Like Drumming For Prince? (The true story…)' on the official Drumeo channel):


https://youtu.be/yOapYnlQMNQ?t=1573



[Edited 6/14/22 11:53am]

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Reply #1 posted 06/14/22 1:01pm

LILpoundCAKE

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since we know for a fact that prince wrote 1000 X's & O's and we can be 80% sure he wrote most of the lyrics to all the other songs on the record and to my ears also composed several of those basic tracks, we can deduce that it's not true that prince hardly touched the music on any of the tracks.

i do believe however that prince gave josh a bunch of his own (vault) tracks and had him remix or re-produce (is that even a thing?) them.

on top of that he probably asked josh to come up with any number of instrumental tracks and later he added lyrics to them and his guitar and bass and some keys.

to me personally it always feels like HIT N RUN ONE is like the demo/try out bunch of songs that did not make the cut for "ART OFFICIAL AGE" - which was a bit more of a joint effort, more prince but still also quite a bit of josh.

as if prince worked with josh, liked what he did for his sound and then, just like always in the past, ran with it and made it his own, while keeping josh involved to add more flavour still.

in that way, HIT N RUN was the try out that evolved into ART OFFICIAL AGE and unlike in the 90s and 80s this time we got a whole album of those initial tracks that would in the past have remained unreleased.

that's how the HIT N RUN albums both feel to me, in a way. although they are a little bit different in that some of their tracks were singles or obviously very good tunes in search of an album (yet).

"if U're lookin' 4 dirt look in Ur own back yard / plant some peace flowers in Ur warzone so I can fire my bodyguards."
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Reply #2 posted 06/14/22 1:24pm

TrivialPursuit

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LILpoundCAKE said:

since we know for a fact that prince wrote 1000 X's & O's and we can be 80% sure he wrote most of the lyrics to all the other songs on the record and to my ears also composed several of those basic tracks, we can deduce that it's not true that prince hardly touched the music on any of the tracks.

i do believe however that prince gave josh a bunch of his own (vault) tracks and had him remix or re-produce (is that even a thing?) them.


That definitely holds water. Morris Hayes has often said how Prince would have a song idea or whatever, and tell Morris to just do anything and everything on it production wise, play whatever, etc. Then, Prince would later come in and take out tracks or whatever that he didn't like. It was almost like ghost writing in a round about way.

But if Welton had the bigger hand on HnR1, that's why it sucks balls.

"eye don’t really care so much what people say about me because it is a reflection of who they r."
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Reply #3 posted 06/14/22 1:38pm

lurker316

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LILpoundCAKE said:

since we know for a fact that prince wrote 1000 X's & O's and we can be 80% sure he wrote most of the lyrics to all the other songs on the record and to my ears also composed several of those basic tracks, we can deduce that it's not true that prince hardly touched the music on any of the tracks.

i do believe however that prince gave josh a bunch of his own (vault) tracks and had him remix or re-produce (is that even a thing?) them.

on top of that he probably asked josh to come up with any number of instrumental tracks and later he added lyrics to them and his guitar and bass and some keys.

to me personally it always feels like HIT N RUN ONE is like the demo/try out bunch of songs that did not make the cut for "ART OFFICIAL AGE" - which was a bit more of a joint effort, more prince but still also quite a bit of josh.

as if prince worked with josh, liked what he did for his sound and then, just like always in the past, ran with it and made it his own, while keeping josh involved to add more flavour still.

in that way, HIT N RUN was the try out that evolved into ART OFFICIAL AGE and unlike in the 90s and 80s this time we got a whole album of those initial tracks that would in the past have remained unreleased.

that's how the HIT N RUN albums both feel to me, in a way. although they are a little bit different in that some of their tracks were singles or obviously very good tunes in search of an album (yet).



Art Official Age was supposedly co-produced by Josh as well, but in this video Hannah makes an emphatic point that HNR ONE was the *only* album that Prince allowed anyone else to produce. That implicity acknowledges that Josh's role in AOA must have been less significant than his role in HNR ONE. Right?




[Edited 6/14/22 13:52pm]

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Reply #4 posted 06/14/22 2:43pm

Robbajobba

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LILpoundCAKE said:

since we know for a fact that prince wrote 1000 X's & O's and we can be 80% sure he wrote most of the lyrics to all the other songs on the record and to my ears also composed several of those basic tracks, we can deduce that it's not true that prince hardly touched the music on any of the tracks.

i do believe however that prince gave josh a bunch of his own (vault) tracks and had him remix or re-produce (is that even a thing?) them.

on top of that he probably asked josh to come up with any number of instrumental tracks and later he added lyrics to them and his guitar and bass and some keys.

to me personally it always feels like HIT N RUN ONE is like the demo/try out bunch of songs that did not make the cut for "ART OFFICIAL AGE" - which was a bit more of a joint effort, more prince but still also quite a bit of josh.

as if prince worked with josh, liked what he did for his sound and then, just like always in the past, ran with it and made it his own, while keeping josh involved to add more flavour still.

in that way, HIT N RUN was the try out that evolved into ART OFFICIAL AGE and unlike in the 90s and 80s this time we got a whole album of those initial tracks that would in the past have remained unreleased.

that's how the HIT N RUN albums both feel to me, in a way. although they are a little bit different in that some of their tracks were singles or obviously very good tunes in search of an album (yet).

I thought there was an interview around that time where Prince says that he just played guitar and sang on HnR 1 - everything else is Josh (or someone else)?

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Reply #5 posted 06/14/22 4:34pm

lurker316

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TrivialPursuit said:

LILpoundCAKE said:

since we know for a fact that prince wrote 1000 X's & O's and we can be 80% sure he wrote most of the lyrics to all the other songs on the record and to my ears also composed several of those basic tracks, we can deduce that it's not true that prince hardly touched the music on any of the tracks.

i do believe however that prince gave josh a bunch of his own (vault) tracks and had him remix or re-produce (is that even a thing?) them.


That definitely holds water. Morris Hayes has often said how Prince would have a song idea or whatever, and tell Morris to just do anything and everything on it production wise, play whatever, etc. Then, Prince would later come in and take out tracks or whatever that he didn't like. It was almost like ghost writing in a round about way.

But if Welton had the bigger hand on HnR1, that's why it sucks balls.


Was that Kirk's role on Emancipation? Prince had him do the basic tracks and then he came in and added his touch? If so, that explains why Emancipation sucks balls. I don't think HNR ONE is anything great, but at least it freshened up Prince's sound. In contrast, Emancipation made Prince sound stale and dated.


[Edited 6/14/22 17:33pm]

[Edited 6/14/22 17:34pm]

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Reply #6 posted 06/14/22 5:00pm

TrivialPursuit

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lurker316 said:

Was that Kirk's role on Emancipation? Prince had him do the base tracks and then he came in and added his touch? If so, that explains why Emancipation sucks balls. I don't think HNR ONE is anything great, but at least it freshed up Prince's sound. In contrast, Emancipation made Prince sound stale and dated.


I know that Kirk did some drum programming. I don't know about how much production he put into it. Feels like at that time, he'd have been doing it more himself. But - who knows.

And yes, Kirk's flat ass production does sound dated. I never know why Prince lets these yahoos in on his music so heavily sometimes.

"eye don’t really care so much what people say about me because it is a reflection of who they r."
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Reply #7 posted 06/15/22 1:06am

leecaldon

To avoid confusion, no one is claiming Prince didn't WRITE the songs.

Certainly, early in the process, when he was effectively auditioning along with a coupel of other producers, Josh was given vocal stems, and he built all the music around them. I would make sense that was how things may have continued.

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Reply #8 posted 06/15/22 1:34am

mb71

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TrivialPursuit said:

lurker316 said:

Was that Kirk's role on Emancipation? Prince had him do the base tracks and then he came in and added his touch? If so, that explains why Emancipation sucks balls. I don't think HNR ONE is anything great, but at least it freshed up Prince's sound. In contrast, Emancipation made Prince sound stale and dated.




And yes, Kirk's flat ass production does sound dated. I never know why Prince lets these yahoos in on his music so heavily sometimes.

Possibly their willingness to say YES and their belief in god or whatever came before anything else. Just my opinion.

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Reply #9 posted 06/15/22 2:25am

fishwillbite

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I just feel around this time that Prince getting older, getting bored, the addiction was taking over, and he was really starting to let go of the process. Easier to hand over the reigns to another producer who happens to be hanging around the building with his drummer girlfriend. So many of the songs on the last few albums were lacking in energy/love.

PIPS! Eurgh...
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Reply #10 posted 06/15/22 2:47am

AvocadosMax

I think Josh did a fantastic job.
Feeling left out, unwanted, lonely
Do you ever feel alien like me?
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Reply #11 posted 06/15/22 7:17am

LILpoundCAKE

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AvocadosMax said:

I think Josh did a fantastic job.


I don't know about fantastic, but he did a good enough job indeed. I like his production, at least it was something different for prince. His influence and fingerprints on AOA were such a breath of fresh air for me. And the continuation of that on HNR1 was a nice surprise for me.

"if U're lookin' 4 dirt look in Ur own back yard / plant some peace flowers in Ur warzone so I can fire my bodyguards."
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Reply #12 posted 06/15/22 8:00am

lurker316

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LILpoundCAKE said:

AvocadosMax said:

I think Josh did a fantastic job.


I don't know about fantastic, but he did a good enough job indeed. I like his production, at least it was something different for prince. His influence and fingerprints on AOA were such a breath of fresh air for me. And the continuation of that on HNR1 was a nice surprise for me.


This.

I prefer the more organic sound and electic style of music on HNR TWO, but I certainly enjoy HRN ONE as a change of pace. While I understand it's far from Prince's best, I've never under the hate for it.

To my ears, AOA and HNR ONE were more succesful attempts at a return to election mucis than 20Ten. These two are light years better.

I'm not sure how I feel when comparing it to MPLSound , his other late-career attempt at a more electronic album. MPLSound sounds more like a more traditional Prince album, which is good and bad. One the one hand, I feel like it's more pure Prince. On the other hand, it's not as fresh as AOA or HNR ONE.

[Edited 6/16/22 12:57pm]

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Reply #13 posted 06/15/22 10:23am

nayroo2002

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THIS is where the officialy sanctioned (and released) outside production began.

It was done many times after that!

"My Name Is Prince" techno mix, etc...

Do you not remember the 'Batman' remixes (actually good), or those horrible Time remixes from 'Pandemonium' & that rediculous "Shake" remix?

Then, later, those out-of-house "Letitgo" remixes

Sorry lol

i won't list anymore.

But, J. Welton actually put some more fun into the mix back then.

It was experimental, methinks.

"Whatever skin Ur in
we all need 2 b friends"
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Reply #14 posted 06/15/22 10:23am

TrivialPursuit

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mb71 said:

TrivialPursuit said:




And yes, Kirk's flat ass production does sound dated. I never know why Prince lets these yahoos in on his music so heavily sometimes.

Possibly their willingness to say YES and their belief in god or whatever came before anything else. Just my opinion.


You may not be very far off on that, actually.

"eye don’t really care so much what people say about me because it is a reflection of who they r."
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Reply #15 posted 06/15/22 10:26am

purplethunder3
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Josh Welton's role on HITNRUN PHASE ONE...

barf

"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything." --Plato
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Reply #16 posted 06/15/22 11:06am

lurker316

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nayroo2002 said:

THIS is where the officialy sanctioned (and released) outside production began.

It was done many times after that!

"My Name Is Prince" techno mix, etc...

Do you not remember the 'Batman' remixes (actually good), or those horrible Time remixes from 'Pandemonium' & that rediculous "Shake" remix?

Then, later, those out-of-house "Letitgo" remixes

Sorry lol

i won't list anymore.

But, J. Welton actually put some more fun into the mix back then.

It was experimental, methinks.


Yes, back in the late '80s Prince started letting people remix and add to his productions.

The difference is: those were all put out as b-sides and standalone remix discs. They were not on the core album.

Core album's were sacrosanct. Side products were just that: side products.



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Reply #17 posted 06/15/22 7:42pm

GustavoRibas

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fishwillbite said:

I just feel around this time that Prince getting older, getting bored, the addiction was taking over, and he was really starting to let go of the process. Easier to hand over the reigns to another producer who happens to be hanging around the building with his drummer girlfriend. So many of the songs on the last few albums were lacking in energy/love.

.

Maybe, but on Hit and Run Phase Two we can hear Prince passionate about production and arrangements, at least. He was trying to offer a new perspective in horn arrangements, like Michael B Nelson said, and some songs aren´t short and rushed. Songs like ´Black Muse´ and ´Big City´, for example, have some real great things happening in the middle. I am glad he ended his career with a cohesive and musical album.

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Reply #18 posted 06/16/22 2:03am

PURPLEIZED3121

Why is there a constant obsession that P did everything?! He always collaborated starting with Andre C [uncredited] on For You , through to Wendy & Lisa who did frickin LOADS of composition & production through to Josh who P dearly loved.

P reached a point of doing all he could & was happy to pass on his skills & mix it up with younger artists...e.g. Lizzo etc.

Yet another reason to love him.

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Reply #19 posted 06/16/22 12:23pm

TrivialPursuit

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PURPLEIZED3121 said:

Why is there a constant obsession that P did everything?! He always collaborated starting with Andre C [uncredited] on For You , through to Wendy & Lisa who did frickin LOADS of composition & production through to Josh who P dearly loved.

P reached a point of doing all he could & was happy to pass on his skills & mix it up with younger artists...e.g. Lizzo etc.

Yet another reason to love him.


Well, I don't think it's an obsession. It'd be obtuse to say he didn't do everything most of the time. Because he did.

And yes, he certainly did lend out time to other musicians and such. Whether it was Dez's solo on "Little Red Corvette," Wendy and Lisa finishing a song, MOrris Hayes working over a song and Prince mixing it how he wanted. I love that part of his music. And he did collab with folks, like Janelle, N'dambi, Angie Stone, or whoever.

So to think he never lent out time would be just as obtuse.

For me, reading these comments by the Weltons, it feels like they act as though they just glided right in and fully produced Prince's albums; as if he had no real hand in anything. I mean, who has ever fully produced a Prince record? He's always going to have the final word on anything.

Plus we're just hate-posting on him because HnR1 sucks balls.

"eye don’t really care so much what people say about me because it is a reflection of who they r."
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Reply #20 posted 06/16/22 1:08pm

lurker316

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PURPLEIZED3121 said:

Why is there a constant obsession that P did everything?! He always collaborated starting with Andre C [uncredited] on For You , through to Wendy & Lisa who did frickin LOADS of composition & production through to Josh who P dearly loved.

P reached a point of doing all he could & was happy to pass on his skills & mix it up with younger artists...e.g. Lizzo etc.

Yet another reason to love him.



While it's true Prince always collaborated -- and there's nothing wrong with that -- Prince nevertheless did most of the work himself. Of course it varied from song to song, but typically it might be, say, 90% prince, 10% a collaborator.

However, if what the Weltons are saying is true, that proportion was inverted on HNR ONE, with it being 90% Josh and 10% Prince (basically just the vocals).

PrinceVault says the following about Fallinlove2nite: "The music was created by Joshua Welton around the vocal stems submitted by Prince. It is therefore safe to assume that an earlier recording of the song with different music by Prince also exists." Basically, Hannah is saying that's the way the whole album was made.

For me at least, I admire that Prince did most (not all, but much) of the work himself on his albums -- and/or he micromanged the performances of the other contributors, so that he had total control. As a result, the songs were mostly (not entirely, most mostly) the vision of a single auteur. That's what makes him an artist in the truest sense of the word, rather than than just a musican or pop start.

[Edited 6/16/22 13:09pm]

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Reply #21 posted 06/19/22 6:39am

JoeyCococo

lurker316 said:


I know Josh Welton is credited as producer on HITNRUN PHASE ONE, but I've always wondered how much control he truly had. On the one hand, much of the production sounds nothing like Prince and it seems obvious Josh's made a significant conribution. On the other hand, Prince could be a control freak so it's hard for me to imagine Prince not micro-managing.

I just watched a interview of Hannah discussing her time with Prince. She claims that HNR PHASE ONE was almost entirely Josh. She says:

"My husband actually produced this entire record from start to finish. And Prince hardly touched the music [on any] of these tracks. And that's a very rare thing, for Prince to not come in and really take over and add a lot musically. It says a lot about how he really trusted Joshua."

What does everyone think aout that? I realize Josh is her husband, so she could be embellishing or exaggerating his role. But at the same time, there's nothing to suggest her characterization isn't true. Have any specific production details emerged to verify or dispute her account?

Here's a link queued up to the part of the interview where Hannah makes these claims (the video is called 'What’s It Like Drumming For Prince? (The true story…)' on the official Drumeo channel):



https://youtu.be/yOapYnlQMNQ?t=1573





[Edited 6/14/22 11:53am]





I believe it and have proof- it suck’s completely. It is his WORST. Album. I believe he realized and rushed out Phase 2 just months later
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Reply #22 posted 06/19/22 10:57am

GustavoRibas

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Well, IMO, the more melodic parts were probably written by Prince, who gave them to Joshua and said ´have fun with them´. While on other parts, maybe Joshua came with a beat, showed it to Prince and said ´what do you think, P?´ and they worked on it. And all those sound effects are surely Joshua.

.

I dont think HRN Phase One is a great album, but Joshua clearly modernized Prince´s sound. Opposite of what Kirky J did from 96-2000, as somebody mentioned

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Reply #23 posted 06/19/22 11:03am

GustavoRibas

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PURPLEIZED3121 said:

Why is there a constant obsession that P did everything?! He always collaborated starting with Andre C [uncredited] on For You , through to Wendy & Lisa who did frickin LOADS of composition & production through to Josh who P dearly loved.

P reached a point of doing all he could & was happy to pass on his skills & mix it up with younger artists...e.g. Lizzo etc.

Yet another reason to love him.

.

- Well, in my case, part of the fun of being a Prince fan is to think all that stuff came from a single mind (different from other artists who rely on producers, songwriters, etc).

.

Yes, I know lots of things were uncredited and people are talking about it specially since he passed (Slow Love, Power Fantastic, In a large room with no light, etc), but it´s still safe to assume that Prince did the majority of his music by himself.

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Reply #24 posted 06/19/22 11:58pm

Gooddoctor23

lol........Welton is the worst thing that happened 2 a Prince record in his entire career.

His contributions were amateur at best.

99.9% of everything u have been taught, is 99.9% B.S.
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Reply #25 posted 06/20/22 7:40pm

lurker316

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GustavoRibas said:

Well, IMO, the more melodic parts were probably written by Prince, who gave them to Joshua and said ´have fun with them´. While on other parts, maybe Joshua came with a beat, showed it to Prince and said ´what do you think, P?´ and they worked on it. And all those sound effects are surely Joshua.

.

I dont think HRN Phase One is a great album, but Joshua clearly modernized Prince´s sound. Opposite of what Kirky J did from 96-2000, as somebody mentioned


Agreed. That was me who made the earlier comment about Kirk.


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Reply #26 posted 06/20/22 7:41pm

lurker316

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GustavoRibas said:

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

Why is there a constant obsession that P did everything?! He always collaborated starting with Andre C [uncredited] on For You , through to Wendy & Lisa who did frickin LOADS of composition & production through to Josh who P dearly loved.

P reached a point of doing all he could & was happy to pass on his skills & mix it up with younger artists...e.g. Lizzo etc.

Yet another reason to love him.

.

- Well, in my case, part of the fun of being a Prince fan is to think all that stuff came from a single mind (different from other artists who rely on producers, songwriters, etc).

.

Yes, I know lots of things were uncredited and people are talking about it specially since he passed (Slow Love, Power Fantastic, In a large room with no light, etc), but it´s still safe to assume that Prince did the majority of his music by himself.


Agree with you on this as well. I wrote earlier: "I admire that Prince did most (not all, but much) of the work himself on his albums -- and/or he micromanged the performances of the other contributors, so that he had total control. As a result, the songs were mostly (not entirely, but mostly) the vision of a single auteur. That's what makes him an artist in the truest sense of the word, rather than than just a musican or pop start."


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Reply #27 posted 06/20/22 7:43pm

lurker316

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Gooddoctor23 said:

lol........Welton is the worst thing that happened 2 a Prince record in his entire career.

His contributions were amateur at best.


I don't think Welton was great, but he wasn't the worst thing that happened to Prince. He at least freshened up his sound a bit. In that sense, his contributions were much better than Kirk's.




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Reply #28 posted 06/20/22 7:58pm

TrivialPursuit

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lurker316 said:

Gooddoctor23 said:

lol........Welton is the worst thing that happened 2 a Prince record in his entire career.

His contributions were amateur at best.


I don't think Welton was great, but he wasn't the worst thing that happened to Prince. He at least freshened up his sound a bit. In that sense, his contributions were much better than Kirk's.



Y'all forget about Tony Mosley?

"eye don’t really care so much what people say about me because it is a reflection of who they r."
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Reply #29 posted 06/21/22 6:10am

lurker316

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TrivialPursuit said:

lurker316 said:


I don't think Welton was great, but he wasn't the worst thing that happened to Prince. He at least freshened up his sound a bit. In that sense, his contributions were much better than Kirk's.



Y'all forget about Tony Mosley?


Good point. I was narrowly thinking about people who produced Prince, but if you more broadly think about contributors, then yes, Tony would also be worse than Josh. Far worse.


[Edited 6/25/22 8:17am]

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