fortuneandserendipity said:

lavendardrummachine said:

Farfunknugin said:

paisleypark4 said: Exactly , during the celebration at paisley especially . He made himself accessible to his fans and you could feel the love he had for us. It was like being invited to Graceland except Elvis was still in the building and interacted with all of us. I have too many great memories from those times to mention and at the end of the day just feel extremely grateful to have experienced it with a lot of you guys.

I don't know, the idea he was accessible during the Celebrations is fascinating, because a lot of people will say "I met him once during the Celebration" but won't share the details of any personal interaction. I wonder how accessible he was. At the time just going inside Paisley was a big deal, but I wonder if fans didn't build that up. Lots of posts on here about the events, but few concrete descriptions, like it would be sacrilege to share, and it makes me wonder if people are blowing it out of proportion.
He did the talk or Q/A, or whatever you call it but that upset some people. There are stories he stood by the door and welcomed people for a few minutes, but really the best account we heard was from Kevin Smith of all people.

He did seem very accessible during the celebrations, especially Xenophobia, where he maybe wasn't technically more accessible than the other years, but there was a warmth from him that I had never experienced before, in all of my years of going to Paisley. The set lists. Candor with the crowd during shows. The acoustic show very much felt like sitting around the camp fire with him. The Days Of Wild single handed out free one night, just because. The footage of fans and each days festivites shown on the screen right before his show would start. Him inviting a fan on stage to sing Manic Monday with him and the band backing her (!). Touring the building. "Vote on the track list for my next album!" The on stage apology for the A/C failure during Sheila's set (he sat at the piano, and covered his face with his hand as he apologized, in embarrassment, which was very sweet), and the subsequent invite to go watch Minority Report with him at the local theater, after the show, as a consolation for the A/C issues. "Just follow me there, I'll be in the white car." Plus he was just around a lot more than the other years because he was performing there every night, versus the other years, where it was all guest performances that would culminate with Prince shows at a local arena. This actually felt like, "Welcome to my home. Can I get you anything? Thank you for coming."

Maybe it because he was newly and happily married. I got to see one interaction between him and Manuela where he walked through the crowd back to where the cameras were after the show, and she handed him video cassettes of the performance. You could see how happy and in love they were in the way they interacted. Eric Leeds said during his workshop one day that Prince was very touched that so many people from all over the world would come to hang out at his house for the week. Maybe it was just that. He seemed grateful.

He was technically most accessible at the Rainbow Children celebrations because he actually sat in on listening sessions for the album and had discussions with us. Someone else said 45 min, but the one I was in was 4+ hours, up in his game room (no cameras or Kevin Smith that I could see). And you better believe I got my face time. I posted a blog all about it on Geocities back then, but it's gone now obviously. I'm surprised more people don't share their experiences here. It was 20 years ago now, so maybe people don't remember much. Though, I personally don't know how you could forget it.

Up until the celebrations, visits to Paisley felt exciting for obvious reasons, but he certainly wasn't going out of his way to be welcoming. It was more, "You're lucky to be here. This is rare. You're in the presence of greatness. I'll start when I start, if I even decide to play at all, and lucky you if I do."

Prince was a musician, so why listen to him talk?

SchlomoThaHomo said:

He did seem very accessible during the celebrations, especially Xenophobia, where he maybe wasn't technically more accessible than the other years, but there was a warmth from him that I had never experienced before, in all of my years of going to Paisley. The set lists. Candor with the crowd during shows. The acoustic show very much felt like sitting around the camp fire with him. The Days Of Wild single handed out free one night, just because. The footage of fans and each days festivites shown on the screen right before his show would start. Him inviting a fan on stage to sing Manic Monday with him and the band backing her (!). Touring the building. "Vote on the track list for my next album!" The on stage apology for the A/C failure during Sheila's set (he sat at the piano, and covered his face with his hand as he apologized, in embarrassment, which was very sweet), and the subsequent invite to go watch Minority Report with him at the local theater, after the show, as a consolation for the A/C issues. "Just follow me there, I'll be in the white car." Plus he was just around a lot more than the other years because he was performing there every night, versus the other years, where it was all guest performances that would culminate with Prince shows at a local arena. This actually felt like, "Welcome to my home. Can I get you anything? Thank you for coming."

Maybe it because he was newly and happily married. I got to see one interaction between him and Manuela where he walked through the crowd back to where the cameras were after the show, and she handed him video cassettes of the performance. You could see how happy and in love they were in the way they interacted. Eric Leeds said during his workshop one day that Prince was very touched that so many people from all over the world would come to hang out at his house for the week. Maybe it was just that. He seemed grateful.

He was technically most accessible at the Rainbow Children celebrations because he actually sat in on listening sessions for the album and had discussions with us. Someone else said 45 min, but the one I was in was 4+ hours, up in his game room (no cameras or Kevin Smith that I could see). And you better believe I got my face time. I posted a blog all about it on Geocities back then, but it's gone now obviously. I'm surprised more people don't share their experiences here. It was 20 years ago now, so maybe people don't remember much. Though, I personally don't know how you could forget it.

Up until the celebrations, visits to Paisley felt exciting for obvious reasons, but he certainly wasn't going out of his way to be welcoming. It was more, "You're lucky to be here. This is rare. You're in the presence of greatness. I'll start when I start, if I even decide to play at all, and lucky you if I do."

Fascinating story about following him to the cinema. I'm sure I've heard this before, where he invited fans to the same cinema screening, only to not actually turn up himself.

Just out of interest, how much was he talking about music, how much about religion, and how much about societal stuff. Any interesting things he said, anecdotes that really stick in your mind?

fortuneandserendipity said:

SchlomoThaHomo said:

He did seem very accessible during the celebrations, especially Xenophobia, where he maybe wasn't technically more accessible than the other years, but there was a warmth from him that I had never experienced before, in all of my years of going to Paisley. The set lists. Candor with the crowd during shows. The acoustic show very much felt like sitting around the camp fire with him. The Days Of Wild single handed out free one night, just because. The footage of fans and each days festivites shown on the screen right before his show would start. Him inviting a fan on stage to sing Manic Monday with him and the band backing her (!). Touring the building. "Vote on the track list for my next album!" The on stage apology for the A/C failure during Sheila's set (he sat at the piano, and covered his face with his hand as he apologized, in embarrassment, which was very sweet), and the subsequent invite to go watch Minority Report with him at the local theater, after the show, as a consolation for the A/C issues. "Just follow me there, I'll be in the white car." Plus he was just around a lot more than the other years because he was performing there every night, versus the other years, where it was all guest performances that would culminate with Prince shows at a local arena. This actually felt like, "Welcome to my home. Can I get you anything? Thank you for coming."

Maybe it because he was newly and happily married. I got to see one interaction between him and Manuela where he walked through the crowd back to where the cameras were after the show, and she handed him video cassettes of the performance. You could see how happy and in love they were in the way they interacted. Eric Leeds said during his workshop one day that Prince was very touched that so many people from all over the world would come to hang out at his house for the week. Maybe it was just that. He seemed grateful.

He was technically most accessible at the Rainbow Children celebrations because he actually sat in on listening sessions for the album and had discussions with us. Someone else said 45 min, but the one I was in was 4+ hours, up in his game room (no cameras or Kevin Smith that I could see). And you better believe I got my face time. I posted a blog all about it on Geocities back then, but it's gone now obviously. I'm surprised more people don't share their experiences here. It was 20 years ago now, so maybe people don't remember much. Though, I personally don't know how you could forget it.

Up until the celebrations, visits to Paisley felt exciting for obvious reasons, but he certainly wasn't going out of his way to be welcoming. It was more, "You're lucky to be here. This is rare. You're in the presence of greatness. I'll start when I start, if I even decide to play at all, and lucky you if I do."

Fascinating story about following him to the cinema. I'm sure I've heard this before, where he invited fans to the same cinema screening, only to not actually turn up himself.

Just out of interest, how much was he talking about music, how much about religion, and how much about societal stuff. Any interesting things he said, anecdotes that really stick in your mind?

From what I remember it was pretty split down the middle, music v. religion.

I remember him expressing frustration that he couldn't get "High" played on KDWB, and him being upset that the DJ Tony Fly told him it was because that the sounded dated, and not something that young people would want to hear on the radio.

I remember him going on a rant about people covering his songs. He said he found Ginuwine on the street after he covered When Doves Cry, and gave him a piece of mind. I raised my hand and brought up the fact that Emancipation had 4 cover songs, one of which, "Betcha By Golly, Wow," was the first single, asking him, "Is it only okay when you do it?" He gave me a look, and said, "I hit 'em back when I do it." I don't know if he meant financially or what. Someone brought up Keys version of HCUDCMA, which was new at the time, and he said for some reason that didn't bother him.

I remember him talking about how much more money he makes on his albums now that he owns his masters, far more than Purple Rain, which was his biggest seller. Someone asked how much he made from Purple Rain sales, and he said, "About 4 million." I remember him shouting out Ani DiFranco for owning her own label and masters.

He posed a lot of religious questions to the group, which we were supposed to answer out loud. "Do all paths lead to God?" (Mixed yes's and no's) "Wrong. Only one path leads to God," implying it was the New World Translation of the Holy Bible. "Is it better to be a leader or a follower?" (Mixed answers) "It's better to be a follower. Only God can lead." Someone asked about what the Bible says about gay people, and Larry Graham chimed in with a story about him being a former coke head, and that one day he had to look in the mirror and change what he saw, implying being gay is something you should try to change about yourself. I remember looking at Prince's reaction to that, and he didn't have shit to say, which really bothered me at the time.

One girl raised her hand and told him she was upset by his comment at his Celebration concert the previous year, "If you don't know Jesus Christ, I ain't got nothin' to say to you." She was Muslim, and she didn't understand why he had to say something so exclusionary. I think she also mentioned some of the lyrics on The Rainbow Children felt that way. He asked which ones, and she couldn't pinpoint them exactly (we had lyric books, but we had only heard the album one time), and he was like, "Well let's go down to Studio B and listen to it together, just you and me, and you can ask me whatever you want." He literally stood up and walked toward the door like, 'Come on, let's go.' Obviously this got quite a reaction from both her and the group. Fear got the best of her and she stayed put.

The religious questions/comments were very deliberately divisive, and ultimately manipulative. You were made to feel that if you didn't agree with his proselytizing, there was something wrong with you. I remember the NPGMC Ahdio show that came out afterward that mentioned the celebration, and the DJ (Salome?) mentioned the discussions ("The Tornado Divide" I think she called it), asking something to the effect of, "How many of you were scared when you found yourself on the side opposite of right?" At times it felt like very cultish tactics being used, and the manipulation of it made me feel very uneasy (kind of like how I felt after visiting the Scientology Center for a college research paper), and by the end I couldn't wait to get out. I did go up to him on the way out and asked when The Rainbow Children was coming out, and he said, "September."

Hearing Kevin Smith's recount of the project Prince had in mind, it was very clearly designed to be one big Witnessing, or whatever the JW's call it. It all felt quite manipulative and sneaky, which should never be part of any religion imo, and it made me wonder if Larry Graham had used similar tactics with Prince when they met.

Thank you Schlomo for your recollections.

Wow. I'm almost speechless Sometimes a post is so brilliant, evocative and full of controversy, nothing can be added. A bit chilling if I'm honest. I guess you could say after this, never meet your heroes. Not happy with the alleged double standards over his cover versions. The homophobia. The Jebus way is the only way.

SchlomoThaHomo said:

lavendardrummachine said:

(...) I posted a blog all about it on Geocities back then, but it's gone now obviously. I'm surprised more people don't share their experiences here. It was 20 years ago now, so maybe people don't remember much. Though, I personally don't know how you could forget it.
(...)

Wow. thank you for these great stories.

-

Im relaly interested in yoru blog.

Is it possible for you to put it up here somewhere once again ?

You write very well, and would love to read tha blog.

-

There's always so much Prince info aroun, must've missed that one in the day.

Thank you once again !

those posts were great, Schlomo. Thanks

fortuneandserendipity said:

Wow. I'm almost speechless Sometimes a post is so brilliant, evocative and full of controversy, nothing can be added. A bit chilling if I'm honest. I guess you could say after this, never meet your heroes. Not happy with the alleged double standards over his cover versions. The homophobia. The Jebus way is the only way.

It did feel very conflicting. At first, seeing him standing in the doorway after the album played was very exciting and surreal. Everyone got quiet like, "OMG is he actually coming in?!" And then he walked in, plopped down on top of the pool table, and just started chatting.

Obviously, meeting and getting to interact with THE MAN would feel like a dream come true to any fan, but then you're starting to realize he came in with this agenda, which you weren't expecting, and that the real reason he is there is to propagate this Dogma-fest that you didn't sign up for.

However, in retrospect, what a perfect setting for him to try to convert new JW members. You're in a room full of people who idolize you, who can't believe they even get to share the same air with you, let alone interact with you, and they're sitting before you hanging on to your every word. Quite the power dynamic, to say the least. I think that's a big part of why it felt unsettling.

Erykah Badu performed at Paisley that night, and I remember her going into this speech about (paraphrasing), "It doesn't matter if you're Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Gay, Straight...there's a path to enlightenment for anyone who chooses to seek it." It felt like such a relief after what had happened with Prince earlier that day, and got a huge response from the crowd. I wondered what Prince was thinking when she said it, and if it was inspired by proselytizing.

Obviously, the experience didn't turn me away from him, but it was a defining fan moment where I realized we weren't on the same page spritually (hard to swallow when you're favorite album is Lovesexy), and that to continue enjoying him meant having to accept that fact, and that there were now going to be moments where you completely disagree with his ideology, and that it's okay.

I try to look at his JW conversion with compassion, as I would with anyone who suddenly turns to religion and clings to it so tightly. That's not something that happens on a whim. He was clearly at a point in his life when he really needed SOMETHING, and I'm not here to judge whether that something was right or wrong. It did seem to give him peace at a time when he really needed it, and he was obviously very inspired by it.

Vannormal said:

SchlomoThaHomo said:

(...) I posted a blog all about it on Geocities back then, but it's gone now obviously. I'm surprised more people don't share their experiences here. It was 20 years ago now, so maybe people don't remember much. Though, I personally don't know how you could forget it.
(...)

Wow. thank you for these great stories.

-

Im relaly interested in yoru blog.

Is it possible for you to put it up here somewhere once again ?

You write very well, and would love to read tha blog.

-

There's always so much Prince info aroun, must've missed that one in the day.

Thank you once again !

My pleasure, and thank you. Geocities was taken down years ago, so the blog is gone unfortunately. I thought I had the text saved in a Word file, on an old hard drive somewhere, but I have no idea where it is, or if it even still exists. I would be curious to see what I've forgotten about since then. It was 4+ hours, and I typed up tons of notes after, so there must be some things I'm forgetting.

Schlomo, your posts reminded me of the similar way he "opened up" and "granted access" to fans on the ONA tour. SImilar vibes and, looking back on it, was very likely Prince just "witnessing".

I attended 2 soundchecks as an NPGMC member and one evolved into a Q&A that quickly steered into religion. A very specific one. I'd never thought about it but in retrospect it makes perfect sense that Prince would largely prefer to witness to his fan base rather than go door to door and that, in reality, the access he was granting us was mostly a way to try and convert people.

I'm honsetly surprised he let you take those photos too. Did you do it on the sly or did he say it was OK?

herb4 said:

Schlomo, your posts reminded me of the similar way he "opened up" and "granted access" to fans on the ONA tour. SImilar vibes and, looking back on it, was very likely Prince just "witnessing".

I attended 2 soundchecks as an NPGMC member and one evolved into a Q&A that quickly steered into religion. A very specific one. I'd never thought about it but in retrospect it makes perfect sense that Prince would largely prefer to witness to his fan base rather than go door to door and that, in reality, the access he was granting us was mostly a way to try and convert people.

I'm honsetly surprised he let you take those photos too. Did you do it on the sly or did he say it was OK?

Good point about the soundchecks. I never really thought about those as an opportunity for witnessing, but it makes sense.

I didn't take any photos. I did jot down a bunch of notes when I got home, though, so I would remember more when I sat down to write the blog.

And for the sake of being on-topic, I would LOVE to see the footage from these discussions, and to hear what other people think of it all. It was quite an interesting and transformational period for him.

SchlomoThaHomo said:

herb4 said:

Schlomo, your posts reminded me of the similar way he "opened up" and "granted access" to fans on the ONA tour. SImilar vibes and, looking back on it, was very likely Prince just "witnessing".

I attended 2 soundchecks as an NPGMC member and one evolved into a Q&A that quickly steered into religion. A very specific one. I'd never thought about it but in retrospect it makes perfect sense that Prince would largely prefer to witness to his fan base rather than go door to door and that, in reality, the access he was granting us was mostly a way to try and convert people.

I'm honsetly surprised he let you take those photos too. Did you do it on the sly or did he say it was OK?

Good point about the soundchecks. I never really thought about those as an opportunity for witnessing, but it makes sense.

I didn't take any photos. I did jot down a bunch of notes when I got home, though, so I would remember more when I sat down to write the blog.

And for the sake of being on-topic, I would LOVE to see the footage from these discussions, and to hear what other people think of it all. It was quite an interesting and transformational period for him.

Oh, my bad. Someone else posted the photos.

If the Kevin Smith footage is ever found that would be incredible. Maybe they could let Kevin edit it and put it together.

FOr me personally, I was happy for the once in a lifetime chance to be that close to Prince and actually get to speak to him so, regardless of his motives, the opportunity and the relatively fair price was well worth it. The first ONA soundcheck in ATL, he played songs, brought people up on stage and it was great. He let some dude play his guitar and the guy fucking killed it. He posted here for a while.

The second night, he sat in the middle of the theater, about half way back behind us all and passed the mic for questions but things quickly got steered towards "god" and "the truth". I found it boring and a little off putting so I went outside to grab a drink and a smoke because fuck all that and coincidentally, met my (now ex) wife outside. We were married for 10 years, together for 16 and have a great 10 year old son.


Maybe it was all "God's PLan?" woooooooo...ooo....oooooo

With the benefit of hindsight, I feel comfortable saying that him "opening up" was sort of a roundabout way to spread "the truth" and do what Larry and the religion demanded of him. Problem for me is, I'm skeptical of anyone telling me that they have absolute knowledge of abject truth. Prince or anybody else.

I think all that stuff had to so with his inherent insecurity, brought about by his rocky upbringing and was manifested thru his talent throughout his career. I also think it was exacerbated by the 1, 2, 3 punch of the death of his son, his mother and his father with a divorce thrown in on top of it for good measure. If I want to get more into it, I'd guess that the opioid use was another way to numb pain on top of it as he got older.

He lived an amazing life - the stuff of dreams. He built his own giant Purple empire/world but I think anxiety, a basic inability to trust and an innate sense of insecurity fueled him too, for better and for worse. He became an addict but, before that, he was always an addict. Addicted to his art and his craft. A tireless worker and an endless seeker of ultimate satisfaction.

"The Truth", if you will. As far as I'm concerned, he can keep all that dogma to himself but, like most everything he did, it was fascinating to witness.

And listen to.

How about we give Kevin Smith his footage back along with a bunch of other stuff that they find and let him do a "Get Back" style thing it?

He's a huge fan and a decent enough film maker.

Just a thought.

herb4 said:

How about we give Kevin Smith his footage

.

I did not yet know you were in a decision making position at the Estate.

You are a media specialist as well?

udo said:

herb4 said:

How about we give Kevin Smith his footage

.

I did not yet know you were in a decision making position at the Estate.

You are a media specialist as well?

*cough* *cough* Just a thought.

ffdff123 said:

udo said:

.

I did not yet know you were in a decision making position at the Estate.

You are a media specialist as well?

*cough* *cough* Just a thought.

.

Just a 'we' instead of `they`.

No I'm not involved in the estate - but I should be

Therefore, I phrased my idea in the form of a question

Please forgive my egregious misuse of a pronoun

SchlomoThaHomo said:

It did feel very conflicting. At first, seeing him standing in the doorway after the album played was very exciting and surreal. Everyone got quiet like, "OMG is he actually coming in?!" And then he walked in, plopped down on top of the pool table, and just started chatting.

Obviously, meeting and getting to interact with THE MAN would feel like a dream come true to any fan, but then you're starting to realize he came in with this agenda, which you weren't expecting, and that the real reason he is there is to propagate this Dogma-fest that you didn't sign up for.

However, in retrospect, what a perfect setting for him to try to convert new JW members. You're in a room full of people who idolize you, who can't believe they even get to share the same air with you, let alone interact with you, and they're sitting before you hanging on to your every word. Quite the power dynamic, to say the least. I think that's a big part of why it felt unsettling.

Erykah Badu performed at Paisley that night, and I remember her going into this speech about (paraphrasing), "It doesn't matter if you're Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Gay, Straight...there's a path to enlightenment for anyone who chooses to seek it." It felt like such a relief after what had happened with Prince earlier that day, and got a huge response from the crowd. I wondered what Prince was thinking when she said it, and if it was inspired by proselytizing.

Obviously, the experience didn't turn me away from him, but it was a defining fan moment where I realized we weren't on the same page spritually (hard to swallow when you're favorite album is Lovesexy), and that to continue enjoying him meant having to accept that fact, and that there were now going to be moments where you completely disagree with his ideology, and that it's okay.

I try to look at his JW conversion with compassion, as I would with anyone who suddenly turns to religion and clings to it so tightly. That's not something that happens on a whim. He was clearly at a point in his life when he really needed SOMETHING, and I'm not here to judge whether that something was right or wrong. It did seem to give him peace at a time when he really needed it, and he was obviously very inspired by it.

Schlomo, thank you so much for recounting your story in such detail. It's all fascinating.

I also appreciate the sentiment of your final paragraph. Despite the fact that Prince was saying things you fundamentally disagreed with, you reflected on the fact that he, like all of us, had his own unique experiences and perpsectives which led to his opinions. Rather than judge him, you empathized with him. You get that it's possible to understand someone without agreeing with them (it's remarkable these days how many people don't get that distinction and conflate understanding with agreement). This is ironic because you're demonstarting the exact opposite of what Prince was preaching: you're being inclusive, open-minded and non-judgemental.

lurker316 said:

SchlomoThaHomo said:

I try to look at his JW conversion with compassion, as I would with anyone who suddenly turns to religion and clings to it so tightly. That's not something that happens on a whim. He was clearly at a point in his life when he really needed SOMETHING, and I'm not here to judge whether that something was right or wrong. It did seem to give him peace at a time when he really needed it, and he was obviously very inspired by it.

Schlomo, thank you so much for recounting your story in such detail. It's all fascinating.
I also appreciate the sentiment of your final paragraph. Despite the fact that Prince was saying things you fundamentally disagreed with, you reflected on the fact that he, like all of us, had his own unique experiences and perpsectives which led to his opinions. Rather than judge him, you empathized with him. You get that it's possible to understand someone without agreeing with them (it's remarkable these days how many people don't get that distinction and conflate understanding with agreement). This is ironic because you're demonstarting the exact opposite of what Prince was preaching: you're being inclusive, open-minded and non-judgemental.

True. And even I/we can learn from this.

Thank you for these interesting toughts and words to SchlomoThaHomo and in fact to all of us here.

I never understood why people seek solace in religion.

I found it sort of weak, as a flee from reality, dangerously choking even.

Honestly, I often still think like this.

Though debates like this make me rethink my own convictions.

Of course I understand that everyone should have the freedom of having their own experiences and persectives on life or whatever.

And who am I to persuade my own hierarchical differences.

It is possible to respectfully disagree with someones (religious) choices, and (try to) leave it there.

Vannormal said:

lurker316 said:

Schlomo, thank you so much for recounting your story in such detail. It's all fascinating.
I also appreciate the sentiment of your final paragraph. Despite the fact that Prince was saying things you fundamentally disagreed with, you reflected on the fact that he, like all of us, had his own unique experiences and perpsectives which led to his opinions. Rather than judge him, you empathized with him. You get that it's possible to understand someone without agreeing with them (it's remarkable these days how many people don't get that distinction and conflate understanding with agreement). This is ironic because you're demonstarting the exact opposite of what Prince was preaching: you're being inclusive, open-minded and non-judgemental.

True. And even I/we can learn from this.

Thank you for these interesting toughts and words to SchlomoThaHomo and in fact to all of us here.

I never understood why people seek solace in religion.

I found it sort of weak, as a flee from reality, dangerously choking even.

Honestly, I often still think like this.

Though debates like this make me rethink my own convictions.

Of course I understand that everyone should have the freedom of having their own experiences and persectives on life or whatever.

And who am I to persuade my own hierarchical differences.

It is possible to respectfully disagree with someones (religious) choices, and (try to) leave it there.

My grandmother was a JW, though not the pushy kind.

She lost her first husband (My grandfather) in 1970. I was 3. Her daughter was murdered in 1975. She lost her second husband in 1990 and buried her son (my dad) in 2010. Also, a grandchild who was killed in a drunk driving accident. Two husbands and both of her children, one if whom was shot and killed during a home robbery.

I think her faith was what got her through everything. She was never clinically depressed, beaten down or wallowing like one might reasonably expect. I've been through less and haven't handled it nearly as well.

I think people turn to religion for the same reasons folks rely on drugs, alcohol, etc. Sort of a self medicating process that provides comfort. Life is probably a lot easier if you think that you go to heaven when you die, that bad people will be punished by going to hell and that God has everything worked out. It never clicked for me because I don't believe in magic, an afterlife or invisible men in the sky but it works for some people and it seemed to work for my grandmother, RIP.

Belonging to a religion eliminates a lot of having to ask "why?", wondering what it all means and overcoming ones natural fear of death.

herb4 said:

Vannormal said:

True. And even I/we can learn from this.

Thank you for these interesting toughts and words to SchlomoThaHomo and in fact to all of us here.

I never understood why people seek solace in religion.

I found it sort of weak, as a flee from reality, dangerously choking even.

Honestly, I often still think like this.

Though debates like this make me rethink my own convictions.

Of course I understand that everyone should have the freedom of having their own experiences and persectives on life or whatever.

And who am I to persuade my own hierarchical differences.

It is possible to respectfully disagree with someones (religious) choices, and (try to) leave it there.

My grandmother was a JW, though not the pushy kind.

She lost her first husband (My grandfather) in 1970. I was 3. Her daughter was murdered in 1975. She lost her second husband in 1990 and buried her son (my dad) in 2010. Also, a grandchild who was killed in a drunk driving accident. Two husbands and both of her children, one if whom was shot and killed during a home robbery.

I think her faith was what got her through everything. She was never clinically depressed, beaten down or wallowing like one might reasonably expect. I've been through less and haven't handled it nearly as well.

I think people turn to religion for the same reasons folks rely on drugs, alcohol, etc. Sort of a self medicating process that provides comfort. Life is probably a lot easier if you think that you go to heaven when you die, that bad people will be punished by going to hell and that God has everything worked out. It never clicked for me because I don't believe in magic, an afterlife or invisible men in the sky but it works for some people and it seemed to work for my grandmother, RIP.
Belonging to a religion eliminates a lot of having to ask "why?", wondering what it all means and overcoming ones natural fear of death.

Im glad to hear it worked for her. Truely do.

-

That is the reason why i love life;

The questions you need to look for, and try to understand. independently.

I survived Leucemia, religion was the last thing on my mind to think about.

Here in Belgium we have the posibilty to apply for Euthanasia.

I filled in the all the ncessary forms and did everything to make it possible to die a normal death when I won't be able to help myself.

I felt so relieved and even happy after all the info they gave me, adn had the chance to choose.

It wasn't necessary (until now), and it lightened up my life and being in the best way possible.

Not one split second anything religious came to mind, (although they asked and proposed in thte hospital).

My agnosticism way of dealing with life really helped me all the way.

-

Life's is like Prince says, ''you're on your own'', you have to get through ''this thing called life'' on your own first. And if you choose to be guided by whatever or whomever, and it is what you really need, so be it.

I will try and stop judging those who (still imo, foolishly) choose to be religious.

And I'm fully aware that my opinion is absolutely irrelevant.

But i've been hurt and abused too much in my life by religion and all that comes with it, that i don't want to hate it anymore, but rather become indifferent to their overpowering way over often helpless people.

I'd like to thank you for your wonderfull strong story about your fantastic grandmother.

Peace to us all. We need it.

Vannormal said:

herb4 said:

My grandmother was a JW, though not the pushy kind.

She lost her first husband (My grandfather) in 1970. I was 3. Her daughter was murdered in 1975. She lost her second husband in 1990 and buried her son (my dad) in 2010. Also, a grandchild who was killed in a drunk driving accident. Two husbands and both of her children, one if whom was shot and killed during a home robbery.

I think her faith was what got her through everything. She was never clinically depressed, beaten down or wallowing like one might reasonably expect. I've been through less and haven't handled it nearly as well.

I think people turn to religion for the same reasons folks rely on drugs, alcohol, etc. Sort of a self medicating process that provides comfort. Life is probably a lot easier if you think that you go to heaven when you die, that bad people will be punished by going to hell and that God has everything worked out. It never clicked for me because I don't believe in magic, an afterlife or invisible men in the sky but it works for some people and it seemed to work for my grandmother, RIP.
Belonging to a religion eliminates a lot of having to ask "why?", wondering what it all means and overcoming ones natural fear of death.

Im glad to hear it worked for her. Truely do.

-

That is the reason why i love life;

The questions you need to look for, and try to understand. independently.

I survived Leucemia, religion was the last thing on my mind to think about.

Here in Belgium we have the posibilty to apply for Euthanasia.

I filled in the all the ncessary forms and did everything to make it possible to die a normal death when I won't be able to help myself.

I felt so relieved and even happy after all the info they gave me, adn had the chance to choose.

It wasn't necessary (until now), and it lightened up my life and being in the best way possible.

Not one split second anything religious came to mind, (although they asked and proposed in thte hospital).

My agnosticism way of dealing with life really helped me all the way.

-

Life's is like Prince says, ''you're on your own'', you have to get through ''this thing called life'' on your own first. And if you choose to be guided by whatever or whomever, and it is what you really need, so be it.

I will try and stop judging those who (still imo, foolishly) choose to be religious.

And I'm fully aware that my opinion is absolutely irrelevant.

But i've been hurt and abused too much in my life by religion and all that comes with it, that i don't want to hate it anymore, but rather become indifferent to their overpowering way over often helpless people.

I'd like to thank you for your wonderfull strong story about your fantastic grandmother.

Peace to us all. We need it.

Beautiful words, Vannorma! Those are the experiences, the deepest and the hardest ones, that mould your inner strenght. "Peace is what we're here for", right?

Some trulhy great thoughts and sentiment shared in this thread, that I've really appreciated. Thanks to those who contributed.

very cool news. thanks for posting. hope its a good doc.