kingricefan said:

SNiP - Of4$ [take it to P&R]

SNIP - of4$

He did more for the Gay community than most artists just by being himself and playing with some aesthetics and provocative lyrics, sage shows and whatnot.

By borrowing from marginalized Gay artists he took it to anothter level, normalizing some thing....a man in earings...and then he took it even farther and society has never caught up with wearing makeup or men in blouses. If someone Trans felt a kinship to him in 2021, I'd get why, even though that wasn't the perception by a longshot in the 80's on.

In that way he was a hell of an ally.

Then he had people around him who seemed Gay or were Gay...and also seemed to ake a stance of not caring or "whatever floats your boat" even in an era when we were insensitive towards sexuality and looking the other was was progressive. Having Gay friends and Gay people in his life made him an ally.

Did he condone it, and accpt it? Depended on the period of his life. So not an outright ally, not someone who pushed Queer rights, or stayed consistent, but that's also expected from someone of his era and the confusion society went through.

He also played Controversy from 2000 on, so there's that.

rabbutt said:

When I brought up the not so positive things the Bible says about homosexuality during my celebration listening party , prince replied something like " oh...we gotta go there" and then turned it over to Larry to answer. Well Larry's answer got his music banned from my house for a year

even though I don't want to know...

can you relay what was said?

I have struggled with this whole topic for a LONG time.

And I think I have decided that I love P from 78 - 96

That is the person who created the music and message that gave me hope and quite literally saved my soul.

When the JW stuff started happening, I was really turned off.

BIG TIME

But I also thought the music started to suck (please no offense intended) and I lost my way with him a bit....

And then Musicology comes around and it was beautiful to see him so embraced by the public. He seemed renewed in a lot of ways...

And THEN he makes that bullshit gay marriage statement in..... was it New York magazine?

I can't understand why I permitted it and made an excuse for him (he is brainwashed, etc).. I didn't allow members of my family to get away that kind of stuff, but I excuse him?
FUCK THAT to be honest....

He is going to question my marriage when he had 2 failed ones? He gets to try as many times as he wants but I can't? No way.

So, I think where I am going is that I have made peace with the fact that I love the man and I am thankful to the man that told me to make my own rules and who gave a little kid the hope that he could be free one day.

But as disappointing as it it, I simply don't respect and don't like the person he became later on. I put him in the same bucket as some of these asshole conservative politicians and evangelists. Unfortuantely, he never gave me a reason to do otherwise. It is one thing to just say nothing.... that I would respect.. but he said some fucked up shit that I cannot accept... and he never once seemed remorseful about it... never even addressed it... just seemed clueless about how influential he could be and how harmful his words could be... I think that is one-sided and irresponsible.

One more note... I, like many other here... sensed that something was changing towards the end. I can't articulate it, but it felt like a shift was happening but we never got to see it fully happen.

Hamad said:

Damn! Didn’t know there was a TRC pt.2

-

If the 'music' is as strong as part I, i need to hear it.

Where is it ?

Get me in contact with an elite fucker !

NOW !

-

OperatingThetan said:

Vannormal said:

-

No we (really) don't.

He's buried acoording to the jw ways, no ?

The only thing we can tell is that he sang less (openly) about it on his albums, or talked not that extensively anymore in public, or during live shows.

Honestly, as far as i know tbh.

-

We all know he became homophobic because of his believes.

He even drifted away from science because of the sad influence of jw.

Before that, when he was young and clearly more sane/open about those issues.

Prince became seriously conservative when getting older. It is no secret.

I don't know how thàt works tbh.

One should think more while getting older, and be more free. Anyways.

His own Princeology as you name it was added to hide things a bit more imho.

We all know he wasn't the most well balanced person in his last years.

Personally I do hope he was able to think more freely towards the end of his life.

But I doubt it, since there wer barely positive signs...

Poor sucker, really.

-

I'm a former baptised Jehovah's Witness and my knowledge of Jehovah's Witnesses and their beliefs and activities comes from direct personal experience. I hold no resentment toward Jehovah's Witnesses and I was not disfellowshipped. I simply moved on. There are no Jehovah's Witness burials, traditions or stipulations surrounding funeral arrangements. A memorial service may be held and taken by an Elder from the deceased persons congregation, in the same way one may have a minister from their local church, but that is it. A memorial service may still be held by Jehovah's Witnesses for an individual that has been less active in the congregation. Jehovah's Witnesses, at least those who are 'rank and file', are simply not able to blend JW doctrines with their own beliefs, even if they are artistic. There is no room for 'creative interpretation'. Beliefs and teachings are not open to questioning or conjecture once a person has progressed from being a Bible study to a Baptised Publisher. Anyone openly blending doctrines with other concepts or adopting any kind of 'mystical' or Eastern belief system or motif such as the third eye, energy fields, astrology, previous lifes, etc., would be warned and risk disciplinary action as these are considered 'unclean' and demonic and constitute serious offences. If they continued, they may be expelled. Remember, that people can be disfellowshipped for celebrating Christmas or merely talking to a person who has been expelled from their congregation. I am not judging this nor stating it is right or wrong, but those are the standards agreed to when one commits and becomes baptised, and in my experience they were upheld by every congregation member, including myself. Various theories have been conjectured regarding why Prince was apparently treated differently and some of his artistic statements and behaviour do appear to have been tolerated in a greater way than I personally observed during my own experience. However, the distinct lyrical shift in his later work, particularly on Art Official Age, is very telling and revealing. The kind of concepts and beliefs presented in 'Way Back Home' and 'Affirmation 111' are in direct conflict with JW beliefs and are openly contrary to them.

-

Thank you for this insight.

Happy to hear you're out of it.

-

(Below my personal opinion.)

I do not like religions in general an have little respect for most of it - i'm not talking about 'people'.

I have the utmost respect for people - regardless of teir choices.

What I remember most from all your observations is that it's so extremely sad to get caught up in this kind of inhumane treatment.

The belittling, indoctrination and almost impossible way of free thinking is at odds with 'life' in itself.

-

JW, Is that what Prince really was looking for ? I really don't think so.

Yes he always was heavily in search for some god.

But he shut himself down for most people and could barely communicate openly, thus was not open (even) to comments or peopel who thought different.

Stardom made it even worse imho. He was at the top, and therefor had very few resistance.

It didn't matter which direction he went.

Like he was under the delusion that everyone would follow him anyway.

Poor Prince, he retreated into his own world, demanding strict conditions to meet his own requirements, but felt alone, and ended living alone in ... Paisley Park of all places tbh.

I strongly believe that his personality did not have much influence on his talents.

He kept writing pretty good music. (...as of course, all artists are stronger and more creative when they're young, and flatten out a little more as they get older.)

His lyrics have always been a bit alienated towards both these subjects.

We all know that his ambiguity in life was expressed mainly in his desires through his lyrics.

In his early life, he kinda found a way to blend it well. That was the kick of it to all of us.

But he couldn't let go, and struggled towards the end of his life with these issues.

Once again, all my personal opinion.

Never met the guy, and i could be completely wrong.

-

[Edited 6/4/21 2:14am]

Vannormal said:

Prince played so much with his sexuality in his early career, and appealed to so many for that reason, it's a shame he went so far of course in the late 90s onwards.

.

I'm not sure what caused it. I can't help feeling he was battling with some internal feelings.

soladeo1 said:

I think Prince displayed the common religious and sexual conservatism of many older black men of his generation.

Hetoerosexual sex in all it's favors is something to be celebrated.

Lesbian sexuality is something to vex and possibly titilate you.

Homosexual male sexuality was, "Eww, gross...".

He had no problem hiring and delighting in lesbian bandmates, obviously, but I don't think Prince would have been comfortable with a gay male musical collaborator. At least one out in the open.

I agree.

Prince enjoyed presenting himself as an enigma in his youth and create mysteries about himself, asking "am I straight or gay?" in response to the speculative stories told about him in the media.

Now he's not such a mystery anymore. We all know he was a raging heterosexual and it was all about the girls, and yes... He was titilated by lesbians. There were quite a few lesbians in his life throughout his life.

But he was not an LGBT champion. He didn't speak out about LGBT issues. I don't recall hearing about any gay men in his world.

According to Robyn Power, he was into girl on girl action. It's a straight man's sexual fantasy and he wrote a song about it, Loveleft, Loveright.

[Edited 6/5/21 14:13pm]

Phase3 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Janelle Mone came out after Prince passed away. I wonder if he suspected.

I read that part of Andy Allo's split with Prince was because she was questioning or bi??

That song about the bearded lady might be directed at her

I always thought he had me in mind. He was really into Egyptology, metaphysics, esoteric and the supernatural things we often discussed. He even got shades designed to cover his revealing 3rd eye.

Hamad said:

LoveGalore said:

Well wasn't Prince reprimanded by his fellowship at some point anyway? I forget the details but his run with the JWs was not clean.

He recorded a (gospel?) album after Rainbow Children which was dedicated to the faith, he was asked to shelve the project. I can’t confirm or deny the information, my source is this site it would be interesting to hear what this project sounds like, if it really was recorded.

He also went to JW HQ with pointed questions that apparently weren't answered.

The reprimand came when he rewrote some (and recorded new) JW hymns. They may have even been adopted locally until quashed by the upper levels of management.

I think Prince was an ally simply for the reasons that he made gender expression experimentation more mainstream and he made a point to promote Wendy & Lisa's relationship in both promotional photos (spiral staircase w/ hand on hip) as well as in the music ("Is the water warm?"...).

Of course, W&L weren't the only non-hetero members in the circle back then; I know of at least one male in the circle who has made passes at other men, but is still married to his wife, publicly.

What I respect most about Prince and his friends is that they really just kept it moving and focused on the music instead of indulging the speculation and celebrity gossip -- isn't that where we would really all like to be? Where none of this shit matters to anyone?

[Edited 6/6/21 1:54am]

I believe Earl Jones (1981-1991) was gay

strongoxman1 said:

I think Prince was an ally simply for the reasons that he made gender expression experimentation more mainstream and he made a point to promote Wendy & Lisa's relationship in both promotional photos (spiral staircase w/ hand on hip) as well as in the music ("Is the water warm?"...).

Of course, W&L weren't the only non-hetero members in the circle back then; I know of at least one male in the circle who has made passes at other men, but is still married to his wife, publicly.

What I respect most about Prince and his friends is that they really just kept it moving and focused on the music instead of indulging the speculation and celebrity gossip -- isn't that where we would really all like to be? Where none of this shit matters to anyone?

[Edited 6/6/21 1:54am]

jfenster said:

If u dont get info directly from his mouth I'd question it....prince has mentioned injustices regarding aids....where is that so anti gay?

I don't think it was talking about injustice, if you mean SOTT "In France a skinny man died of a big disease with a little name" just signs of the times

laytonian said:

But where did these books come from? Did they just suddenly appear?

Strive said:

kingricefan said:

Re: The Bible. I always thought that God only spoke to Moses and gave him those tablets that contained the ten commandments. Direct from God. There's no mention of any LGBTQ stuff anywhere on them. Therefore, IMHO, everything else in the Bible that is telling another person what they can and cannot do is purely heresay and was written by (biased) MAN, not God. How did we get from two tablets of God's laws to a thick bible? And if we're to condemn people for being gay then what of the people who died before religion was created and were gay? Are their souls condemned to Hell even though they were alive before religion and didn't know what the bible had to say about gays? Organized religion is merely a way to CONtrol people.

The Bible is a collection of books divinely ordained from God. Not man.

"Thou shalt not commit adultery" Adultery is considered any sexual act committed outside of marriage. Not just the modern definition of breaking your marriage vows by cheating.

We're not condemning people. People are condemning themselves with their actions. They're seperating themselves from God, which is hell. Everybody has free will.

"The Council here is teaching that under certain very specific conditions salvation is possible for non-Christians. What are these conditions?

That non-Christians be not culpable for their ignorance of the Gospel.
That non-Christians seek God with a sincere heart.
That non-Christians try to live their life in conformity with what they know of God‘s will. This is commonly spoken of as following the natural law or the light of conscience. It is important to note, as the Council does, in order to avoid a Pelagian interpretation, that this is possible only because people are moved by grace."

You can read more at http://www.renewalministr...16_fcs.pdf

** MODERATORS NOTE **
KEEP THE THREAD ABOUT PRINCE PAISLEY PARK and LGBTQ connection.
Take any directly religious/non religious talk to P&R
-> off topic / anti-religious or disrespectful posts about Prince will be removed

I can't understand why I permitted it and made an excuse for him (he is brainwashed, etc).. I didn't allow members of my family to get away that kind of stuff, but I excuse him?

FUCK THAT to be honest....

He is going to question my marriage when he had 2 failed ones? He gets to try as many times as he wants but I can't? No way.

That's where a lot of the hypocrisy is, absolutely. Couldn't have said it better myself.

OldFriends4Sale said:

Vannormal said:

soladeo1 said:

I think Prince displayed the common religious and sexual conservatism of many older black men of his generation.

Hetoerosexual sex in all it's favors is something to be celebrated.

Lesbian sexuality is something to vex and possibly titilate you.

Homosexual male sexuality was, "Eww, gross...".

He had no problem hiring and delighting in lesbian bandmates, obviously, but I don't think Prince would have been comfortable with a gay male musical collaborator. At least one out in the open.

In his book, Wally Safford claims Prince fired an employee (I forget who and don't have the book at hand) because he was gay.

jfenster said:

SNIP - Of4$

Prince, as a mixed race person, will identify as black and will advocate equality for blacks yet he will disrespect other groups in society. Surely anyone who respects their own life would/should respect all life in all forms.

Prince will advocate for musicians and writers being paid yet he would not credit those who contributed to his music and he would not pay them.

The more we learn about Prince, the more self-serving he is pictured as being.

SNIP - Of4$

[Edited 6/7/21 2:43am]

BartVanHemelen said:

Vannormal said:

We all know he became homophobic because of his believes.

.

I recall hearing something that he also had some issues with homosexuality in the 1980s. Let's not forget he was raised a Seventh-day Adventist: https://en.wikipedia.org/..._Adventism .

-

True. But it's not that if you're raised with the Seventh-day believes, that you personally have something against gay people tbh.

He had lisa around from the begining, and she has always been very clear about herself.

-

jfenster said:

Vannormal said:

-

If the 'music' is as strong as part I, i need to hear it.

Where is it ?

Get me in contact with an elite fucker !

NOW !

-

Do the elitists have it?

-

That's the question... we'll never know fort sure.

But I seriously doubt it.

From that era, not much was leaked.

He was more carefull.

Again, we do not know for sure.

-

darkroman said:

SNIP - of4$

I do get concerned more and more about Prince's integrity as a person.

Prince, as a mixed race person, will identify as black and will advocate equality for blacks yet he will disrespect other groups in society. Surely anyone who respects their own life would/should respect all life in all forms.

Prince will advocate for musicians and writers being paid yet he would not credit those who contributed to his music and he would not pay them.

The more we learn about Prince, the more self-serving he is pictured as being.

SNIP - Of4$

[Edited 6/7/21 2:43am]

-

It shows all the more that he was just a human with flaws and issues.

Lot's of him will be revealed in time.

That's what i like about all this and all the debates.

But his music remains intact. At least to me. Maybe even more so.

Cause that's what it is all about.

The more asshole Prince seems to be, the more i like him and his music. Honestly!

-

Yes WE ALL NEED to question our own integrity.

I've been doing this for the last 50+ years, and it sure helps. Every day and again.

-

YIKES

you better not be at anyones office or house Christmas party

now Halloween candy

nonna it

darkroman said:

SNIP -of4$

I do get concerned more and more about Prince's integrity as a person.

Prince, as a mixed race person, will identify as black and will advocate equality for blacks yet he will disrespect other groups in society. Surely anyone who respects their own life would/should respect all life in all forms.

Prince will advocate for musicians and writers being paid yet he would not credit those who contributed to his music and he would not pay them.

The more we learn about Prince, the more self-serving he is pictured as being.

SNIP - of4$

[Edited 6/7/21 2:43am]

jfenster said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I don't think it was talking about injustice, if you mean SOTT "In France a skinny man died of a big disease with a little name" just signs of the times

....dear Mr man ....chaos and disorder

Ain't no assistance in AIDS