MarshallStacks said:

tab32792 said:

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

When I say I think the songs with Tony don't need him it's not that Tony was bad, it's just that prince didnt need that. Ditto scrap d, eve, chuck d, etc.

agreed

Whoa, there....!

Eve's rap on TGRES is stellar (and totally fits that adam & eve mix).

The rest: co-sign

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

there is no best rapper of all time.

its not biggie, or 2pac, or rakim.

You mean we're not playing "Top 5: Dead or Alive"?

nope!

hip hop is too old now to play that game.

its not like its 1994 still. or 2001 even.

Tony was hired for his looks. He got more chicks than P.

2freaky4church1 said:

BlackCandle said:

RJOrion said:

dodger said:

RJOrion said:

SoulAlive said:

The story goes that Prince caught Tony M. and Carmen having sex together.He then wrote “I Hate U”,directed at Carmen I’ve been hearing this rumor for years.

I don't know if he literally caught them having sex, but the rest of that is the same rumor I heard; that it's squarely pointed at Carmen. More than explains both of their quick exits from his camp.

Carmen could've done much better than Tony, tho. She's pretty, he's forgettable.

RJOrion said:

BlackCandle said:

You mean we're not playing "Top 5: Dead or Alive"?

ill play: 1. JayZ 2. Jay Electronica 3. Busta Rhymes 4. Nas 5. tie: Method Man/Raekwon (WuTang Clan) [Edited 3/12/21 11:13am]

i cant really do the best rapper game.

its like giving someone an exam or something.

some of my favourites only had one great album (or ep) or did something amazing for a short period (eg bone thugs) but i think thats fine.

but for the 80s, id say its

kool g rap

big daddy kane

epmd

run dmc

chuck d

krs one

rakim

kool keith

ice cube

shock g

ll cool j

90s

nas

raekwon

prodigy

snoop

biggie

busta

eminem

big pun

scarface

bone thugs

jay-z

prob missing several out.

jfenster said:

coldcoffeeandcocacola said:

I bet so, p may well have gone and put his ideas down before getting Tony in to do his parts, maybe even rapped them himself. His spoken word was pleasant after all

I'm gonna sorta disagree with that (because of reasons I'll explain, but also because I don't trust anything Tony M. would ever try to fill in on this).

When I edited him out of the songs on these two albums, sometimes I simply cut out his bars, like at the end of "Daddy Pop" or "The Flow." Whereas on songs like "Gett Off" or "The Max," I'd use an instrumental part to crossfade over him, virtually erasing him from that section.

Having said that, what I did notice, especially in songs like "My Name is Prince," "Daddy Pop," "The Sacrifice of Victor," "Sexy MF," "Willing and Able" where he had a pointed section of "This is Tony's moment," that without him, and those bars totally cut out, the song was complete on its own. The balance of intro, verse, verse, chorus, verse, chorus chorus, bridge, chorus, chorus, chorus was already there. The parts with Tony M. felt inserted. Like the song was purposely extended for 16 or 24 measures simply to give him somewhere to be, because otherwise he wasn't necessarily written into the song originally. The flow felt natural without him.

Of course, there were moments where it feels a bit different, like cutting out his little section on "The Flow" or "Love 2 The 9s," but in general where he's near the end of the song, his stuff felt added on for the sake of it, not because it was originally inherent to the song or its structure. I listened to the songs after, and really tried to make sure the song was balance, as I mentioned before. That it felt normal for it to go from here, to there, passing through this to get to that. Even the word bridge-y feeling "Daddy Pop" takes solely for Tony's rap, then comes back to have a jam-type ending makes you realize that Tony never belonged on that song like that. I don't believe he really belonged on any of those songs.

Listening to those songs, with the edits feels way more organic and natural to Prince's writing process and song structure. Song ideas, yes, but him rapping those parts? No. Even on that early D&P configuration that's out, Tony simply isn't there, nor is Prince rapping those parts (that I remember).

OperatingThetan said:

FunkJam said:

What IS wrong with it?

I think he sounds just fine on "Willling and Able" and "Live 4 Love".

He does and his style and delivery fits the time period perfectly. The criticism is mostly in retrospect and I think predominantly emanates from those who were displeased at Prince incorporating rap into his music and generally dislike it as a form. I first became a fan when I was 14 in 1991 and there was nothing out-of-place about Tony M at that time, hence the commercial success.

I will refute this.

I'm very much into the from. From Grandmaster Flash, Boogie Down Productsions, Beasttie Boys, Public Enemy, LL, Big Daddy Kane, Kool Moe D, west coast stuff, Egyptian Lover, NWA, etc. up to Eminem. I like them all, always have.

Tony M was a joke. A sad pitiful excuse for Prince to remain current, which failed miserably.

Poor Tony, getting erased from the annuls of Prince history. I agree all the songs are better withoiut the raps, but, I do like his vocal on 2Gether.

TrivialPursuit said:

coldcoffeeandcocacola said:

I bet so, p may well have gone and put his ideas down before getting Tony in to do his parts, maybe even rapped them himself. His spoken word was pleasant after all

I'm gonna sorta disagree with that (because of reasons I'll explain, but also because I don't trust anything Tony M. would ever try to fill in on this).

When I edited him out of the songs on these two albums, sometimes I simply cut out his bars, like at the end of "Daddy Pop" or "The Flow." Whereas on songs like "Gett Off" or "The Max," I'd use an instrumental part to crossfade over him, virtually erasing him from that section.

Having said that, what I did notice, especially in songs like "My Name is Prince," "Daddy Pop," "The Sacrifice of Victor," "Sexy MF," "Willing and Able" where he had a pointed section of "This is Tony's moment," that without him, and those bars totally cut out, the song was complete on its own. The balance of intro, verse, verse, chorus, verse, chorus chorus, bridge, chorus, chorus, chorus was already there. The parts with Tony M. felt inserted. Like the song was purposely extended for 16 or 24 measures simply to give him somewhere to be, because otherwise he wasn't necessarily written into the song originally. The flow felt natural without him.

Of course, there were moments where it feels a bit different, like cutting out his little section on "The Flow" or "Love 2 The 9s," but in general where he's near the end of the song, his stuff felt added on for the sake of it, not because it was originally inherent to the song or its structure. I listened to the songs after, and really tried to make sure the song was balance, as I mentioned before. That it felt normal for it to go from here, to there, passing through this to get to that. Even the word bridge-y feeling "Daddy Pop" takes solely for Tony's rap, then comes back to have a jam-type ending makes you realize that Tony never belonged on that song like that. I don't believe he really belonged on any of those songs.

Listening to those songs, with the edits feels way more organic and natural to Prince's writing process and song structure. Song ideas, yes, but him rapping those parts? No. Even on that early D&P configuration that's out, Tony simply isn't there, nor is Prince rapping those parts (that I remember).

I agree, all salient points, and I feel the Tony raps were one of a few rare moments in Prince's career where he tried to meet the trend at the time, instead of setting it, or, rising above it.

dodger said:

RJOrion said:

word?...OK..name one of these "chicks" you speak of...or show me a picture of him with a woman other than his co-workers Rosie Gaines & Mayte...more chicks than P?...nah

It's been said on here over the years Tony and Carmen had a thing and that prompted P to write I Hate U. I don't know what the source of this is . It was brought up on his interview with Michael Dean (which is well worth a listen if you haven't heard it) and got a little laugh.

So is carmen chicks now? That would be one woman in my book.

RODSERLING said:

I always liked Tony M rap. What s wrong with it ? He s not worst than any american black rapper in the world ( I consider MC Solaar, Beastie Boyz and Eminem above the others).

Damn that was Racist AF

jdcxc said:

RODSERLING said:

I always liked Tony M rap. What s wrong with it ? He s not worst than any american black rapper in the world ( I consider MC Solaar, Beastie Boyz and Eminem above the others).

Damn that was Racist AF

#ThatMomentWhen white supremacy entered hip-hop/rap

leadline said:

I agree, all salient points, and I feel the Tony raps were one of a few rare moments in Prince's career where he tried to meet the trend at the time, instead of setting it, or, rising above it.

Seems to be the popular opinion overtime. One that I agree with. I really saw D&P as the end of Prince setting trends in music (although major props for continuing to use a live band on record). Prince still wrote some of his best material ever in the mid 90s (just as the majority of the 80s). But he did stop innovating and seemed to concentrate on songwriting and using his band in even more ways. I'd say the only outstanding innovation-adjacent thing he did was use his own music as basis of new tunes. Like using elements of "Gett Off" for "Violet The Organ Grinder," "Gangsta Glam," and "Clockin' The Jizz." Or using "New Power Generation" to make something like "Get Off," "Loveleft, Loveright," and "The Lubricated Lady." (same with "Cream) It went well beyond just a clever remix, it practically invented the idea of repurposing.

DarkKnight1 said:

Symbol album is one of his absolute best. One of the most balanced, eclectic and stands the test of time. Change nothing, ever.

Love the songs without Tony, but I agree on the symbol album being one of the best balanced, and next on that list for me is HitnRun 2.

At the time Prince wanted a big hit album, and rap was really breaking into the top 10 around that time. From memory the top rapper was MC Hammer (can't touch this) around the time of Diamond and Pearls recording being recorded, and then Vanilla Ice (ice ice baby) around release date. I'll go out on a limb and say I might actually prefer TonyM to either of those. Prince wanted a real easy to sell commercial sound, and D&P is exactly that... Side note: Gett Off is the song that made me a lifetime fan! And D&P was my first Prince CD.

DarkKnight1 said:

Symbol album is one of his absolute best. One of the most balanced, eclectic and stands the test of time. Change nothing, ever.

Brilliant Songwriting...at least 3 pure CLASSICS!

DarkKnight1 said:

jdcxc said:

RODSERLING said:

I always liked Tony M rap. What s wrong with it ? He s not worst than any american black rapper in the world ( I consider MC Solaar, Beastie Boyz and Eminem above the others).

Damn that was Racist AF

If I remember right this was the poster who said that rap wasn't real music or art. Something like that.

Wolfie87 said:

TrivialPursuit said:

It's more possible, and really happened, that yours truly edited Tony M. out of about 98% of Diamonds and Pearls and .

I realized once I took him out and fixed the songs, that many of these raps were just tacked onto the end. When you right the songs without the rap and shore them up, they're much more coherent and solid.

I think it works on "Love 2 The 9's" speaking part with Mayte, honestly. The song has such a great dynamic when it comes back to Prince's breakdown at the end. One of the shining moments of the 90's.

The rap is essential to L2T9 and works very well in that song.