Another problem is the notion of innovation. Talented young artists tend to be part of the musical zeitgeist. They make the trend. They are the change. Prince, in the 80's, was at the avant-garde of pop and R&B. The sheer amount of eccentricities in his work, by comparison to his peers, and the way he established himself as one of the most influential artists of the decade, contributed greatly to the impact his works had on his young fans back then.

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Now take any older artist. Either they stay in their comfort zone at the risk of being accused of becoming boring and formulaic, or they try and adopt new musical trends to stay relevant. Then, they'll usually be considered followers not innovators, because most of the time new, younger artists have set the new trendd they're implementing in their new music. No matter what they do, it's extremely hard to be an influential, innovative, avant-garde artist twice in your life (Miles may be the only one to have truly done it with both his hardbop and electric eras).

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There was no way in the world Prince would become a trendsetter again in either pop, hip-hop, funk or R&B in the 90's or beyond. Similarly and only to take a few examples, Bowie wasn't gonna be considered an icon of drum & bass with Earthling, because he was never at the core of that new musical movement. George Clinton wasn't ever be considered an innovator in hip-hop in the vein of Dr. Dre, Cypress Hill or Public Enemy in the 90's. And despite her current works still being held in high esteem by critics and fans, you probably won't ever see Björk come-up with a new series of records that end-up being as groundbreaking and influential in the field of electronic music as her 90's catalogue.

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This debate about P's golden age vs later years has been, by far, the most brought-up topic on the Org for over 2 decades. There's literally been a new thread about it every week or so. And it gets sillier every year, particularly since Prince is gone and can't do anything about it anymore.

It's like some huge psychological trauma shared by many in this community, with a dose of denial, as if complaning enough about it would suddenly, magically generate a new post-1988 Prince catalogue that would, at long last, fulfill each and every fans' expectations.

There's no such thing as magic, though. Bitch all you want, Prince's catalogue will remain as it is. I don't understand what sense it makes, why won't Prince's fans grow up, accept reality and move on.

Se7en said:

Prince's run from 1980-1988 (sorry, but are you excluding Lovesexy?!) is arguably as near-perfection as you can get. Masterpieces, IMO. Rivals anybody (Beatles, Bowie, U2, etc.) Not saying better, but definitely equal. I feel that Batman should have been Prince's side project in 1989, not his main album release. But here we are.

1991-1996 (to me, would be more like 1990-1995) is Prince incorporating hip-hop a lot more maybe than he should have, but it's still a powerhouse era. He was still energized and had a LOT to say in his music, just not as consistently as he did in the 80s.

I completely agree. I was one of those people who was a staunch 80's advocate. Until I started going through his discography and listened closely to how he changed and evolved. I love 1992-1995

there are those who get it and those who don't get it.

those who don't like the 90s... don't get it

We grew up when music, not just by Prince, but by most mainstream artists, was steak. The younger ones grew up in an era where people had downsized to bologna. Prince had given us full albums, year after year, of nothing but steak and continued to give us some steak in the 1990s but he started slipping in some bologna too. The young ones don't mind bologna because when that's what you've been raised on, you get used to it and even like it. But when you've been raised on mostly steak and then someone starts slipping in some bologna, naturally, you're going to be like..... "Oh HELL, what the fuck is this shit!". I'm just glad that Prince only sold out a little and didn't completely sell out and stop making funk like Ronald Isley and Charlie Wilson. Those two motherfuckers gave us years of steak and then tried to make us vegetarians. Hell, I'd rather if they had just retired.

vainandy said:

lustmealways said:

there are those who get it and those who don't get it.

those who don't like the 90s... don't get it

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Databank is right :

"There was no way in the world Prince would become a trendsetter again in either pop, hip-hop, funk or R&B in the 90's or beyond. (...)

This debate about P's golden age vs later years has been, by far, the most brought-up topic on the Org for over 2 decades. There's literally been a new thread about it every week or so. And it gets sillier every year, particularly since Prince is gone and can't do anything about it anymore.

It's like some huge psychological trauma shared by many in this community, with a dose of denial,

as if complaning enough about it would suddenly, magically generate a new post-1988 Prince catalogue that would, at long last, fulfill each and every fans' expectations.

(...) accept reality and move on."

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And I'd like to add to that,

there's no use (anymore) to compare his era's.

IT IS WHAT T IS, deal with it.

His biggest achievements are clear facts, the rest is also clear (in comparisson) to what it is.

And that is also a fact.

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If someone thinks the 90's were better, let them think that way, it's their right.

Then it would be a personal preference that has no need for a factual debate based on publically recognised quality/quantity.

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Oh. Jay Crawford posted his thread again.

The problem comes when any certain fan thinks that they're "right" and others are just stupid.

Granted, the majority of Prince fans will choose the 80s over the 90s. And the 90s over the 00s. And even the 00s over the 10s.

But, if someone in the mid 90s was getting into then-current Prince on MTV/VH1, with more R&B/hip-hop influenced sound and came to love that, they might not like the poppier/rockier/New Wave stuff of the 80s.

LoveGalore said:

Prince's lyrical quality did not drop. You just stopped relating to what he was talking about. His lyrics were always great. It's hilarious how some of you must have stopped listening at or before Wedding Feast and ignored lyrical garbage like Eggplant or Free or America or Starfish & Coffee.

I'd go further and say that Prince's finest lyrics are mostly to be found after the eighties were finished. This shouldn't be surprising, given that by that point he was older, more mature and had more life experience. I'm thinking especially of some of the autobiographical pieces on Emancipation, The Truth and some of his final albums (June springs to mind as one of Prince's most interesting lyrics), but there's a host of other examples. There are good lyrics from the eighties too, but let's just say I don't exactly listen to Dirty Mind for its poetical prowess.

LoveGalore said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

The to say 'just as great' means there is something to be compared. So it's beyond nostalgia, but facts.

We can actually present information to prove 80-87/88 was the golden era/great era

We can present information to try to show 91-96 was great / or just as great

Commercial viability is not a testament to greatness. So, prove it.

ATWIAD is my favorite album. For You and the 1977-1978 period is one that I love to explore over and over and over.
I never talking about Commerial viability when it comes to this discussion. I'm somone who has posted about a For You Deluxe, because there is something valuable about beginnings. There is a lot of richness in that 1977-1978 period.

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I can prove my point.

TheEnglishGent said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

The to say 'just as great' means there is something to be compared. So it's beyond nostalgia, but facts.

We can actually present information to prove 80-87/88 was the golden era/great era

We can present information to try to show 91-96 was great / or just as great

Your points seem to lean more towards proving commercial success and I don't think anyone would deny that the 80s were his most successful period from a commercial point of view.

What you can't present, is information to make someone who thinks the 90s music is better change their mind. Assuming they are already fully aware of the output from both periods.

I've been posting album era threads since forever.
Anyone who has ever read my posts, in general would know nothing about 'commercial' success defines my love for 1977-1989

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Now I also LOVE Rainbow Children and was disappointed that the era was lacking.

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Planet Earth era. Not so strong an album ( I love the album title cut) but the era London residency was very fun, still had the momentum as the 3121 era.

lustmealways said:

there are those who get it and those who don't get it.

those who don't like the 90s... don't get it

Is the arguement about 'not liking' the 90s or the 90s being just as great as the 80s?

The OP clearly believes the 80s was great and golden.

I appreciate aspects of the 90s

I cannot stand the movie Graffiti Bridge, but I love discussing all things there almost were, could have been Graffiti Bridge.

A few notes when talking about ERA's. An ERA is more than just the music. It's a complete package of events surrounding the released album.

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One example is the proteges/protege albums of the 1981-1987 period with no doubt increased the greatness of the period.
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The protege/protege albumsof the 1990-where did they end period, did not make the period great. Even though, as I've said in another thread, I still would have love to have been able to mix Robin Power and the Uptown Dames, Anna Fantastic, Kim Bassinger?, Carmen Electra (who else) in with the associated Prince album.
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I looked for the same with Bria Valente + LotusFlower and Andy Allo etc

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When we talk about the 70s for example, it's not just the music or just the social life or just the... It's all the things we think made the 70s great.
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So the discussion of era's have to be more than if you liked Strollin over Kiss. The era is a full package.

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I think/hope in other discussion, instead of saying one period was not good etc (well we shouldbe able to and should) but that fans of an era can present to others who are not or not so familiar, that era ina way that sheds light on his legacy. Every album era isn't going to be golden nor a 'masterpiece'.

SanMartin said:

LoveGalore said:

Prince's lyrical quality did not drop. You just stopped relating to what he was talking about. His lyrics were always great. It's hilarious how some of you must have stopped listening at or before Wedding Feast and ignored lyrical garbage like Eggplant or Free or America or Starfish & Coffee.

I'd go further and say that Prince's finest lyrics are mostly to be found after the eighties were finished. This shouldn't be surprising, given that by that point he was older, more mature and had more life experience. I'm thinking especially of some of the autobiographical pieces on Emancipation, The Truth and some of his final albums (June springs to mind as one of Prince's most interesting lyrics), but there's a host of other examples. There are good lyrics from the eighties too, but let's just say I don't exactly listen to Dirty Mind for its poetical prowess.

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Obviously...

It should be odd if one doesn't grow in what he says or writes (in lyrics) while getting older.

When you're young, you just ramble on, trying to be the best philosopher one can be. Wisdom doen't arrive at 24 just like that. Life lessons need to be stumbled upon.

Say, it would be very uncool to sing about having sex with your sister, or masturbating when your 5Osomething.

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JayCrawford said:

I haven't checked this thread since I started it. Look, hear me out. I can understand that if YOU PREFER that era from 1991-1996 more than his prime 80-87. But that's not what this is about since most 90s Prince fans weren't around when Prince was the king of music throughout the 80s. My whole point is that how can people make a claim that his terrible 90s era is just as great as his golden years? So you're basically saying that albums like D&P, Love Symbol, Come, TGE and Emancipation are just good as Dirty Mind, Controversy, 1999, Purple Rain, Parade and SOTT? Do you truly believe that lol? I'm sorry but Princes best work was and always will be the 1980s. His 80s album's were game changers, made history, pioneering materials, broke barriers and made history and the quality of his work in the 80s were top notch from.top to bottom. His 90s era? Sorry it was just shit after shit after shit.

Wow, you're just so patronizing. Why even start a thread about it then. Are you rooted in your ideas? So be it, enjoy it. Last time I checked, tastes differ and there's no objective rule by which you can affirm a piece of art is better than another. It's all about tastes.

And adding "lol" to your sentences just shows how childish your attitude is. Now go listen to Prince's 80s output and enjoy.

Vannormal said:

SanMartin said:

I'd go further and say that Prince's finest lyrics are mostly to be found after the eighties were finished. This shouldn't be surprising, given that by that point he was older, more mature and had more life experience. I'm thinking especially of some of the autobiographical pieces on Emancipation, The Truth and some of his final albums (June springs to mind as one of Prince's most interesting lyrics), but there's a host of other examples. There are good lyrics from the eighties too, but let's just say I don't exactly listen to Dirty Mind for its poetical prowess.

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Obviously...

It should be odd if one doesn't grow in what he says or writes (in lyrics) while getting older.

When you're young, you just ramble on, trying to be the best philosopher one can be. Wisdom doen't arrive at 24 just like that. Life lessons need to be stumbled upon.

Say, it would be very uncool to sing about having sex with your sister, or masturbating when your 5Osomething.

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But those 19-27 yr old lyrics were electric "I sincerely want 2 f--k the taste out of your mouth. Can U relate?"

He still talked about masturbating in his 50s just in not so obvious ways. Which is the best way. He did it in the 80s as well. I love when people find out Power Fantastic is also about masturbation(not only but yeah it's like 1/3 of the song) lol

Or a buddy of mine, finding out Santa Claus isn't real, when I proved to him what happened at Do Me Baby was masturbation, not intercourse lol

OldFriends4Sale said:

Marco81 said:

I love the 90's stuff and never jumped off the bandwagon.

My man was flat bringing it live once he assembled the NPG, who brought a much needed more organic sound along with a heavier bottom end.

The problem was not the hip hop element. It was that he selected a really shitty rapper to implement it and for whatever reason filled his albums with goofy segues and ridiculous story elements that didn't add shit to the art and, in fact, almost always detracted from it. Also, that he was throwing WB offhand shit that he obviously had no passion for and, maybe worse, didn't have an editor working with him to nix certain things and tell him "no" so the albums weren't as "tight". But...

There was MORE MUSIC, which I always preferred since I could pick and choose what I liked for myself. I was elated to have CB and Emancipation - SIX fucking Albums to peruse through in search of the gems that rung a bell for me. I didn't have to like all of it. For me, the more I got the better and I'll put tracks like Calhoun Square, Shh, Love 2 the 9's, Gett Off, Days of Wild, The Ride or Dreamin About U up against any 80's songs. The 90's were fun and it was always an adventure with him.

I loved HOW MUCH we were getting and how different Love Symbol and TGE sounded from Lovesexy and Parade. He was still challenging me and he was unarguably surrounding himself with better players and a more accomplished band. Michael Bland in particular brought a BOOMING and more organic drum sound to his shit that had NEVER been in his arsenal before. I think Exodus is his definitive funk record and it's one of my favorites of his (and of all time, really). The VH1 special he did was great. Even the albums he tossed WB's way had a lot of high points and some great songs.

Prince was never BORING and always kept me guessing. A part of me felt like I was in on a secret if only I kept paying attention. Some writer called him "the world's most famous underground artist" during this time and, tbh, a part of me kind of dug that he still had it and could melt your face even if he wasn't wrecking the Billboard top 40 anymore. A part of me preferred it that way.

[Edited 1/15/21 8:17am]

LoveGalore said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

ATWIAD is my favorite album. For You and the 1977-1978 period is one that I love to explore over and over and over.
I'm never talking about Commerial viability when it comes to this discussion. I'm somone who has posted about a For You Deluxe, because there is something valuable about beginnings. There is a lot of richness in that 1977-1978 period.

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I can prove my point.

Well, the point can't be proven. That's my point. If you say Parade is his best album and I say his best album is Gold then what has to or can be proven other than well mannered critical sparring like Siskel and Ebert? Nothing can prove Parade is a better album than Symbol. Or D&P. The second someone says "I like D&P better than 1999" the theory of the 80s being greater is debunked.

Again, you are talking about 'album' I'm talking about ERA there is a huge difference.

vainandy said:

We grew up when music, not just by Prince, but by most mainstream artists, was steak. The younger ones grew up in an era where people had downsized to bologna. Prince had given us full albums, year after year, of nothing but steak and continued to give us some steak in the 1990s but he started slipping in some bologna too. The young ones don't mind bologna because when that's what you've been raised on, you get used to it and even like it. But when you've been raised on mostly steak and then someone starts slipping in some bologna, naturally, you're going to be like..... "Oh HELL, what the fuck is this shit!". I'm just glad that Prince only sold out a little and didn't completely sell out and stop making funk like Ronald Isley and Charlie Wilson. Those two motherfuckers gave us years of steak and then tried to make us vegetarians. Hell, I'd rather if they had just retired.

After the implosion of the post-punk era (1984 circa), the 80's was no less embarassing, quality-wise, than the 90's.

Both decades had interesting and/or revolutioning phenomena, as far as pop music is concerned.

Preferences, most of the times, are influenced by generational background, educational experiences and personal (subjective) taste, of course.

It is not necessarily a bad thing, but nobody can find an absolute truth in all of that.

[Edited 1/15/21 9:45am]

^ Yeah I don't really see much of a difference in quality between decades, there was great stuff all the time, still is. But then again, I've stayed away from most mainstream music since the mid 90's, so IDK much of what's going on on that front.

OldFriends4Sale said:

LoveGalore said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Again, you are talking about 'album' I'm talking about ERA there is a huge difference.

Yes, I'm talking about the subject of the thread. Your personal estimation of an era is yours alone.

The title is 1991-1996 era is just as great as his golden era 80-87

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My 'definition of ERA is not different from the dictionary. Released Album by itself, is not an era.

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If you are going by the OP subject they didn't say a particular album, they pointed to a time period.

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I mean your first answer to the question was 'Taste'

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My reply was to someone else and you replied to my post about albums-Commercial viability.

Which I was never talking about, as I have stated already.

databank said:

^ Yeah I don't really see much of a difference in quality between decades, there was great stuff all the time, still is. But then again, I've stayed away from most mainstream music since the mid 90's, so IDK much of what's going on on that front.

From what I can tell, you're not missing much. I'm sure lots of good music is out there somewhere but, man, I can't imagine being 20 years old and trying to find it.

Vannormal said:

NoSwan said: