Given that the estate has done a grand job so far in releasing some incredible vault tracks [please DON'T bitch that they could release A LOT MORE - we know!] is it time for bootlegers to just give up. The so called inside traders group with a handful of exclusive tracks that they have held on to for years are now irrelevant. Back in the day the cassettes [!] were great, likewise the sound board live shows/aftershows were essential. But now it feels like there really is nothing new for them to share that would blow our socks off. For every 1 track they hoard the estate will have a 100!

So, are we agreed that they are of no use now. I have had zero reason to use them, hunt down anything of signifcance etc.

[Edited 1/3/21 9:25am]

nope. sorry guys, i just want more songs. if it comes from the estate, "elites", or the newest blast from the past whatever, i don't care. just give me new shit.

in a perfect world the estate would be doing more to satisfy this thirst but whatever.

I would say that the days of the bootlegger are very unlikely to be over. There are many, many shows that the Estate simply may never release and the demand for them will be satisified by others.

Say you want to watch: Montreux 2009 / 2013, The HitnRun Tours, The 21 Nights Tours, Live recordings from pretty much the entire 1990's and so, so much more.

Whilst, the Vault is no doubt huge, there is a bit demand from many collectors which the Estate is unlikely to ever satisfy.

[Edited 1/3/21 10:33am]

Personally, I disagree.

When it comes to the studio vault tracks, I will agree that the estate hasn’t done a bad job so far. There’s been room for improvement, but they’ve not left me thirsty either. Having said that, I’ll still take what I can get regardless of the source.

Here’s a few reasons off the top of my head as to why I think the “black market” is still relevant…

Timing: The Estate is keeping to a schedule. In order to maximise profits they are choosing to release Prince’s music at a steady pace. Michael Howe has stated that the estate intend on releasing approximately 1 substantial collection per year. Personally I’m not overly excited at the prospect of a Diamonds and Pearls SDE (if indeed that is the plan for 2021). How long will I have to wait until there is a new release I can get excited about if we’re talking 1 release per year?

Bootlegers and traders are not restricted by these terms. They can choose to release what they have whenever they want, whether it be a single track or an entire collection.

Multiple versions: It’s not unusual for a vault song to exist in various different version. These include complete version, edited versions, alternate mixes, alternate lyrics, work in progress / test versions, even entirely different takes. There have been multiple cases where a released song may not be my preferred version, and I have to rely on bootlegs and leaks to make up the slack.

A few examples:
Crystal Ball: I personally like the early version without strings, yet the estate chose to release a 7” edit of the string version.
Crucial: The estate chose to release a version with alternate lyrics as opposed to the version with Eric Leeds on sax.
Eggplant: Who asked for the version with Prince’s guide vocal? Surely everyone prefers the version with Wendy on lead vocal and the banter between her and Prince?

Historical relevance: As we know, the estate has a few different methods at their disposal when it comes to preserving and remastering Prince’s songs. The most common method is to back up the original 2” analogue tape and then attempt to remix the song digitally using hand written notes, a rough mix down or test cassette as a guide. The songs that are being traded around and sold outside of the estate are often the mixes that Prince oversaw himself.

In addition to the authentic mixes, the cassettes that get traded around occasionally unearth other gems. An album sequence that Prince was working on. A method of seguing tracks together. Maybe some banter with bandmates before the song starts. The estate gave us a glimpse behind the curtain with Power Fantastic, but there is no guarantee they’ll always offer up this sort of material in the future.

Censorship: I doubt any of us will be getting ‘Extraloveable ‘82’ or ‘Lust U Always’ from the estate anytime soon. How about Wendy’s version of Eggplant? Did political correctness play a part in the decision to release Prince’s guide vocal instead of the finished mix? I don’t know for certain, but I suspect it may have. Will ‘School Yard’ be notably absent when Diamonds and Pearls SDE is released? I hope not.

Legal: Since ‘Most Beautiful Girl in the World’ is tied up in legal issues, I think it’s safe to assume that the estate will likely be sitting on a lot of the 1993-1994 era outtakes until the matter can be resolved.

I also suspect that contracts with Sony had an influence of which songs WB chose to put on SOTT:SD. Fingers crossed they’ll be more co-operative in future.

I suppose it depends on what a bootlegger has in their possession. Someone actually have that original "Wally?" Etc etc etc. Then those leaks would be great.

It's not that we can't/shouldn't trust the estate to release this stuff we've heard for decades. But we also have to be logical that not every single tape in that vault is going to see the light of day, and maybe it shouldn't. Maybe not everything needs to see the light of day, or is consumer worthy on the level of being profitable. (Bark all ya want about art and business not mixing, but dis a bid'ness...)

I believe there are no only business people in charge, but there are Prince fans in control of things there, influencing what does come out and what doesn't. It's not like these people don't have a grip on what "era" of Prince housed this or that song, birth such'n'such aborted project, or even what fans what on a deluxe release. Clearly, they're listening. Each SDE has gotten better than the last one. (Argue against that all ya want, but you're wrong.)

We should also remember that not everything is going to be SOTT-esque in release. Some may be more on the 1999 or PR level. In between that, the bootleggers may very well fill some gaps. There are certainly no more new shows to release, so who has older shows unreleased that are soundboard? Who's sitting on a gem? That's the ticket.

So no, the days of bootleggers aren't over. But it's certainly going to be harder to put something out that makes fans and the estate sit up and think, "oh shit! The fuq is this?!?!"

VaultCurator said:

Hell no!

The unprofessionals at WB/Estate relase too few songs, too slow, too censored, badly packaged, etc.

B00tleggars generally do it better and quicker.

udo said:

love2thenines2003 said:

udo said:

Hell no!

The unprofessionals at WB/Estate relase too few songs, too slow, too censored, badly packaged, etc.

B00tleggars generally do it better and quicker.

Bootleggers don't have nothing for months and months interresting or xclusive to propose..

.

I'll see whether I can confirm soon.

.

.that's it Inner circles in other way is continuing to share big things that even The Estate doesn't want to release or can't release...so the source for the big things is empty now for the bootleggers..not for the big traders and collectors!

.

The traders and such still have interesting thinsg yes, that the Estate wil never ever release.

That will be their failure for decades to come.

If we ever do get a studio quality Extraloveable or Lust U Always, I look for it coming from a bootlegger cuz the traders sure are holding onto these like they're money. It appears these songs ARE, indeed, money.

I wholeheartedly disagree with OP's premise. The record companies and other rights holders who are gatekeeping his recordings will only ever treat his works as commodities and not as the phenomenal legacy of art that it is. They can be trusted to make myopic decisions for the instant gratification of their next quarterly report. With this mindset, they're likely to shun -- or worse, destroy -- anything they don't think has profit-making potential.

I think OP greatly underestimates the vast volume of material that hasn't been officially released. I'm not just referring to the songs that have never been in circulation. There's cultural value -- and, as time passes, growing historical value -- in the alternate takes, unedited versions, demos, sanctioned mixes, rehearsals, soundchecks, videos, interviews, experiments and, of course, the massive collection of live shows. (If I told you how many audio and video files I'm trying to index right now, you would not believe me -- and I feel like I'm only scratching the surface. Quality, new-to-me material surfaces almost daily.)

Prince's legacy is not just a product to be bought and sold. The unofficial circulation of this material is unfortunately necessary to preserve, propagate and promote a lifetime devoted to art that should be studied, appreciated, celebrated and made available to many generations to come.

[Edited 1/4/21 7:52am]

sulls said:

If we ever do get a studio quality Extraloveable or Lust U Always, I look for it coming from a bootlegger cuz the traders sure are holding onto these like they're money. It appears these songs ARE, indeed, money.

don't expect anything more exciting from the bootleggers....the vein is dead but u will get reissues of old things in beautiful packagings !!

The bootleggers are definitely out of the game as for now since they don't have anything left to release. I don't think they'll be important again before a long time.

very well argued points.

VaultCurator said:

Personally, I disagree.

When it comes to the studio vault tracks, I will agree that the estate hasn’t done a bad job so far. There’s been room for improvement, but they’ve not left me thirsty either. Having said that, I’ll still take what I can get regardless of the source.

Here’s a few reasons off the top of my head as to why I think the “black market” is still relevant…

Timing: The Estate is keeping to a schedule. In order to maximise profits they are choosing to release Prince’s music at a steady pace. Michael Howe has stated that the estate intend on releasing approximately 1 substantial collection per year. Personally I’m not overly excited at the prospect of a Diamonds and Pearls SDE (if indeed that is the plan for 2021). How long will I have to wait until there is a new release I can get excited about if we’re talking 1 release per year?

Bootlegers and traders are not restricted by these terms. They can choose to release what they have whenever they want, whether it be a single track or an entire collection.

Multiple versions: It’s not unusual for a vault song to exist in various different version. These include complete version, edited versions, alternate mixes, alternate lyrics, work in progress / test versions, even entirely different takes. There have been multiple cases where a released song may not be my preferred version, and I have to rely on bootlegs and leaks to make up the slack.

A few examples:
Crystal Ball: I personally like the early version without strings, yet the estate chose to release a 7” edit of the string version.
Crucial: The estate chose to release a version with alternate lyrics as opposed to the version with Eric Leeds on sax.
Eggplant: Who asked for the version with Prince’s guide vocal? Surely everyone prefers the version with Wendy on lead vocal and the banter between her and Prince?

Historical relevance: As we know, the estate has a few different methods at their disposal when it comes to preserving and remastering Prince’s songs. The most common method is to back up the original 2” analogue tape and then attempt to remix the song digitally using hand written notes, a rough mix down or test cassette as a guide. The songs that are being traded around and sold outside of the estate are often the mixes that Prince oversaw himself.

In addition to the authentic mixes, the cassettes that get traded around occasionally unearth other gems. An album sequence that Prince was working on. A method of seguing tracks together. Maybe some banter with bandmates before the song starts. The estate gave us a glimpse behind the curtain with Power Fantastic, but there is no guarantee they’ll always offer up this sort of material in the future.

Censorship: I doubt any of us will be getting ‘Extraloveable ‘82’ or ‘Lust U Always’ from the estate anytime soon. How about Wendy’s version of Eggplant? Did political correctness play a part in the decision to release Prince’s guide vocal instead of the finished mix? I don’t know for certain, but I suspect it may have. Will ‘School Yard’ be notably absent when Diamonds and Pearls SDE is released? I hope not.

Legal: Since ‘Most Beautiful Girl in the World’ is tied up in legal issues, I think it’s safe to assume that the estate will likely be sitting on a lot of the 1993-1994 era outtakes until the matter can be resolved.

I also suspect that contracts with Sony had an influence of which songs WB chose to put on SOTT:SD. Fingers crossed they’ll be more co-operative in future.

a fair point historically speaking - i have lost count of how much I have. However in terms of new stuff there is little to nothing for bootleggers to give apart from rehashes with great artwork! From what I understand they do like to have little cock waving/cock teasing sessions on what they apparently have. I am an old purple head & have spoken to a couple of these clowns in the past!...they do seem to enjoy their exclusive club! They have served their purpose well over decades but are now irrelevant.

drfeld said:

I wholeheartedly disagree with OP's premise. The record companies and other rights holders who are gatekeeping his recordings will only ever treat his works as commodities and not as the phenomenal legacy of art that it is. They can be trusted to make myopic decisions for the instant gratification of their next quarterly report. With this mindset, they're likely to shun -- or worse, destroy -- anything they don't think has profit-making potential.

I think OP greatly underestimates the vast volume of material that hasn't been officially released. I'm not just referring to the songs that have never been in circulation. There's cultural value -- and, as time passes, growing historical value -- in the alternate takes, unedited versions, demos, sanctioned mixes, rehearsals, soundchecks, videos, interviews, experiments and, of course, the massive collection of live shows. (If I told you how many audio and video files I'm trying to index right now, you would not believe me -- and I feel like I'm only scratching the surface. Quality, new-to-me material surfaces almost daily.)

Prince's legacy is not just a product to be bought and sold. The unofficial circulation of this material is unfortunately necessary to preserve, propagate and promote a lifetime devoted to art that should be studied, appreciated, celebrated and made available to many generations to come.

[Edited 1/4/21 7:52am]

Bootleggers keep deliveiring those incredible Soundboard Rehearsals please.

There's still stuff that the estate hasn't released from the eras covered so far that bootleggers have tracks for.

The 12" mix of "I Could Never Take the Place of Your Man", for example, is killer. I can't believe it's not on the SOTT deluxe edition. It was played for me a few times by a collector.

ufoclub said:

love2thenines2003 said:

ufoclub said:

There's still stuff that the estate hasn't released from the eras covered so far that bootleggers have tracks for.

The 12" mix of "I Could Never Take the Place of Your Man", for example, is killer. I can't believe it's not on the SOTT deluxe edition. It was played for me a few times by a collector.

....the long version of Adore is circulating too currently among Collectors but a collector is not a bootlegger sellers...so these kind Of things are not ready to be available for us fans ...the vein is dead for bootleggers! [Edited 1/4/21 21:57pm]

Yes but in the years since Prince passed away, many exclusive collector hoarded tracks have all been let go in large dumps as bootleg compilation releases... and I think it will continue.

ufoclub said:

love2thenines2003 said:

ufoclub said: ....the long version of Adore is circulating too currently among Collectors but a collector is not a bootlegger sellers...so these kind Of things are not ready to be available for us fans ...the vein is dead for bootleggers! [Edited 1/4/21 21:57pm]

Yes but in the years since Prince passed away, many exclusive collector hoarded tracks have all been let go in large dumps as bootleg compilation releases... and I think it will continue.

Iam pessimistic a lot about this at this stage but i'd like to be wrong !

They've been over since they had to go underground again...

purplethunder3121 said:

They've been over since they had to go underground again...

Not because they released a lot of things these past months....rehashes & re-packagings of old things already in circulation since years but nothing really xclusive or brandnew !