Vannormal said:

SexyMuthaF said:

They saying gardening might not be what ya think know what I mean lol

LOL

Morgaine said:

I think Prince died - or part of him - when he had to pull the plug on his son's life and the subsequent miscarriage didn't help. Prince used art & creating art to escape from whatever pain/ideas he didn't want. He had an amazing ability to transform himself on a regular basis which makes for great art but didn't seem to help him physically, mentally, or spiritually in the end - he ran away from what he didn't want to see. I believe he had a difficult time accepting love from others and chose to push them away when they got too close. An incredibly gifted, hard working, artist who gave the world more than most. I believe that though he chose to be alone, he also longed for intimacy and someone who would stay no matter what. I do not believe he died happy (though I think he is now) and I also believe he feared dying alone.

I am inclined to agree with this.

RE: above mention of Twin Peaks

Don't mean to diminish profound thoughts with brief off-topic connection, but FWIW, Sherilyn Fenn blogged about Prince.

http://sherilynshines.blo...-ride.html

After his Moline incident, he did ask Tamron Hall to come out and also called Andy Allo for the same. (she did not get the message). Not certain if he asked Judith Hill to stay.

His request may have seemed to be too subtle/off-hand, though I bet he wanted someone near.

"All I ever wanted was to be left alone" may have meant alone with his inspiration, music, God.

How many would like to see the elevator?

2freaky4church1 said:

How many would like to see the elevator?

You are more enigmatic than Prince.

RODSERLING said:

Morgaine said:

RODSERLING said:

Again, the song is about his son, trying to find his way back home, meaning he is lost somewhere, in another plan of life, a dream, or no-life, a black-lodge like thing as in Twin Peaks. That is the key to understand the lyrics. . .Sometimes Prince mix up his life with that of his son, because in the end, they are the same person . This is so obvious in the following lines : " In my dreams I roam". . " I don't belong here" " Most people in this world are born dead (just like his son) , but I was born alive". In fact, most people in this world are born ALIVE, so it s clearly a sign he identifies himself completely to his son. . "I was born with this dream outside my head" . We all know that Prince' son had a brain/head syndrome. A dream is INSIDE our heads, not outside. So, again as in Twin peaks, Prince/his son are living in a dream, and in fact we are all living in a dream. Who is the dreamer? Here, Prince'son. He survived in his dream, or in Prince, s dream, outside his ill head. . Then, the most obvious line is : " Power to the ones who raised a child like me" So it s clearly Prince'son speaking now. And Prince need power, reconfort and peace of mind since he still hopes for an"happy ending" . How could happy ending happen if your son is already dead? Because dreams survive to death, because when you die you are stuck in a never-ending dream. There is somewhere a dream where his son survived, and Prince and Mayte raised him. . The album was released when Lynch announced the new season of Twin peaks, so I always made the connection with it. And in the end of Twin peaks, that was broadcast three years later it was announced, the main character succeed in going back in time to get a better ending, or should I say a better beginning. . This exactly what Way Back Home is about. Prince'son is dead, but in the same time, he is alive, and things got mixed up. . His son " veered from his path and preordered destiny", his death should have never happened, such as Laura Palmer' death. . Other interpretations are far-fetched IMHO. [Edited 12/10/20 8:38am] [Edited 12/10/20 13:15pm] [Edited 12/10/20 13:17pm] [Edited 12/10/20 13:17pm]

I can't imagine having the power, fame, and wealth Prince had for over 10 years then get married, conceive right away, be as happy as you've ever been, and not be able to save the person in the world you love the most - your child. Imho it broke him. I think he had periods where he had happiness after, I just think you never get over losing your baby. He was the one who decided to pull the plug and I believe he always felt guilt. We know Prince created as a way to rid himself of pain/anything he didn't like..I believe he was in physical pain for at least 10 years before he died. Lots of physical pain. I also think he had nerve damage and was getting to the point where playing an instrument hurt more than helped. The best parts for me are the art he gave us & the belief that he's with his child & at peace now.

Can't begin to imagine the pain of a circumstance and loss like that.

[Edited 12/10/20 17:12pm]

datdude said:

I can't imagine having the power, fame, and wealth Prince had for over 10 years then get married, conceive right away, be as happy as you've ever been, and not be able to save the person in the world you love the most - your child. Imho it broke him. I think he had periods where he had happiness after, I just think you never get over losing your baby. He was the one who decided to pull the plug and I believe he always felt guilt. We know Prince created as a way to rid himself of pain/anything he didn't like..I believe he was in physical pain for at least 10 years before he died. Lots of physical pain. I also think he had nerve damage and was getting to the point where playing an instrument hurt more than helped. The best parts for me are the art he gave us & the belief that he's with his child & at peace now.

the beauty of art is that its subjective right and he left us so much to interpret. I resonate with ur reply and given his disdain for (recreational) drug use, for him to become addicted to a pain killer is indicative of the pain he was in. I agree the loss of a child is way hard on parents and marriages, few marriages make it thru and the parents never fully heal. I still don't think the song is abt his son, at least not in totality. some assertions made are a reach at best and the connections are not "linear" or "obvious" and the twin peaks references seem irrelevant to me. but again subjectivity, not dogmatism

[Edited 12/10/20 17:59pm]

datdude said:

I can't imagine having the power, fame, and wealth Prince had for over 10 years then get married, conceive right away, be as happy as you've ever been, and not be able to save the person in the world you love the most - your child. Imho it broke him. I think he had periods where he had happiness after, I just think you never get over losing your baby. He was the one who decided to pull the plug and I believe he always felt guilt. We know Prince created as a way to rid himself of pain/anything he didn't like..I believe he was in physical pain for at least 10 years before he died. Lots of physical pain. I also think he had nerve damage and was getting to the point where playing an instrument hurt more than helped. The best parts for me are the art he gave us & the belief that he's with his child & at peace now.

the beauty of art is that its subjective right and he left us so much to interpret. I resonate with ur reply and given his disdain for (recreational) drug use, for him to become addicted to a pain killer is indicative of the pain he was in. I agree the loss of a child is way hard on parents and marriages, few marriages make it thru and the parents never fully heal. I still don't think the song is abt his son, at least not in totality. some assertions made are a reach at best and the connections are not "linear" or "obvious" and the twin peaks references seem irrelevant to me. but again subjectivity, not dogmatism

[Edited 12/10/20 17:59pm]

(Sorry for tech difficulties)

Yes, I agree with Datdude.

I think Prince talked about longing for God/Heaven/the release of death over the course of his career.

[Edited 12/10/20 18:02pm]

datdude said:

The original post was lengthy and I admit that I speed-read through a bit. But, today, I read more deeply and one of the topics I hear the OP asking is, "Can a person engage others on their terms only?" and it they can/do, does this style diminish one's emotional maturity?

As very young children we can engage from a "me first" approach. Parents and other adults do not expect a two-way relationship. However, though that child does not engage empathetically with others (rudimentally, only), they realize they do not have much power either, hence the meltdowns. (My then 2 y/o daughter comes to mind-what a tyrant!)

If an adult interacts in the world with an 'on my terms, only' approach, others with the expectation of reciprocity, such as most healthy adults, would not be fulfilled and would eventually leave.

IMO, the best adult relationships involve respect, reciprocity and some risk. This means that both people require care and nurturance for the relationship to flourish.

I can only guess and intuit re: Prince. From what I can glean, he did not, for whatever reason, get involved in too many (any) relationships that required him to negotiate or feel that feeling of risk, vulnerability.

I do think he sang about it and likely knew intellecually that this was required in a really fulfilling relationship, but it did not seem to play out in real life. This would cause loneliness and a feeling of not liking to be here. Perhaps he realized at the end that fame and wealth were not the salves he thought they might be.

I think it is hard for people who have had a childhood where they really did not get their needs met to

be able to hang out in mature relationships as it can be scary. An adult cannot demand to have their unmet childhood needs met by their partner. One needs to learn to self-soothe, communicate, risk etc.

A caring partner can help to heal some of those wounds but they cannot re-parent.

[Edited 12/11/20 8:15am]

[Edited 12/11/20 8:22am]

[Edited 12/11/20 8:46am]

Morgaine said:

RODSERLING said:

Again, the song is about his son, trying to find his way back home, meaning he is lost somewhere, in another plan of life, a dream, or no-life, a black-lodge like thing as in Twin Peaks. That is the key to understand the lyrics. . .Sometimes Prince mix up his life with that of his son, because in the end, they are the same person . This is so obvious in the following lines : " In my dreams I roam". . " I don't belong here" " Most people in this world are born dead (just like his son) , but I was born alive". In fact, most people in this world are born ALIVE, so it s clearly a sign he identifies himself completely to his son. . "I was born with this dream outside my head" . We all know that Prince' son had a brain/head syndrome. A dream is INSIDE our heads, not outside. So, again as in Twin peaks, Prince/his son are living in a dream, and in fact we are all living in a dream. Who is the dreamer? Here, Prince'son. He survived in his dream, or in Prince, s dream, outside his ill head. . Then, the most obvious line is : " Power to the ones who raised a child like me" So it s clearly Prince'son speaking now. And Prince need power, reconfort and peace of mind since he still hopes for an"happy ending" . How could happy ending happen if your son is already dead? Because dreams survive to death, because when you die you are stuck in a never-ending dream. There is somewhere a dream where his son survived, and Prince and Mayte raised him. . The album was released when Lynch announced the new season of Twin peaks, so I always made the connection with it. And in the end of Twin peaks, that was broadcast three years later it was announced, the main character succeed in going back in time to get a better ending, or should I say a better beginning. . This exactly what Way Back Home is about. Prince'son is dead, but in the same time, he is alive, and things got mixed up. . His son " veered from his path and preordered destiny", his death should have never happened, such as Laura Palmer' death. . Other interpretations are far-fetched IMHO. [Edited 12/10/20 8:38am] [Edited 12/10/20 13:15pm] [Edited 12/10/20 13:17pm] [Edited 12/10/20 13:17pm]

I can't imagine having the power, fame, and wealth Prince had for over 10 years then get married, conceive right away, be as happy as you've ever been, and not be able to save the person in the world you love the most - your child. Imho it broke him. I think he had periods where he had happiness after, I just think you never get over losing your baby. He was the one who decided to pull the plug and I believe he always felt guilt. We know Prince created as a way to rid himself of pain/anything he didn't like..I believe he was in physical pain for at least 10 years before he died. Lots of physical pain. I also think he had nerve damage and was getting to the point where playing an instrument hurt more than helped. The best parts for me are the art he gave us & the belief that he's with his child & at peace now.

Was he the one who decided? If I remember correctly (reading mayte's book), wasn't she the one who didn't want any more procedures done because she thought it's torture or something like that? And then they decided together that if Ahmir can't breath on his own, maybe it's not meant to be. I could be wrong, but I think I remember reading something like that. Either way, I absolutely agree that it broke him, who wouldn't be broken after a loss like that?

[Edited 12/12/20 13:05pm]

RODSERLING said:

The song is clearly about his son, or else there wouldn't have been so much clues in the lyrics and the music of WBH and Affirmation III. . For the record, when I read the name of the track, I thought maybe it s about returning to WB. WB Home. Lol

No, it is not.

I never wanted a typical life
Scripted role, huh... trophy wife

So Prince's son didn't want a trophy wife... this is ridiculous.

ForbiddenFruit said:

RODSERLING said:

The song is clearly about his son, or else there wouldn't have been so much clues in the lyrics and the music of WBH and Affirmation III. . For the record, when I read the name of the track, I thought maybe it s about returning to WB. WB Home. Lol

No, it is not.

I never wanted a typical life
Scripted role, huh... trophy wife

So Prince's son didn't want a trophy wife... this is ridiculous.

I know that it is often hard for us fans to realize at the end of the day he was HUMAN. He felt things we all feel, we will never know what exactly he was feeling but we will always draw our own conclusions becasuse he put so much into the music and very seldom let the public in his private world, I mean I tell people he was married twice MOST dont even know he was married ONCE. I think later in life IMO Prince felt what anyone getting older (Yes PRINCE was getting older) feels. I mean things he dealt with personally with two marriages and of course the death of a child, all coming during a heated battle with his company, no one in his corner in those days fighting for artist rights, the name change, the jokes and yes he brought that on, all that scrutiny when he went indie with Emancipation, I mean his friend Bryant Gumble's question "the cd debut at 11 fell to 57 its still 57, arent you disappointed" I mean this was what he was always dealing with on that front, I mean how many artists that were getting older got questions and exact chart positions weekly. And then on his personal front, he always seemed to be searching for spiritual freedom and enlightment and I think he often felt let down by his own beliefs in things, and personal loss his parents, Vanity's death, also seeing your fellow musicians die, MJ, Whitney and David Bowie etc.... and then factor in getting older, looking back at relations he handled wrong, and then Physical pain of just getting older and not being able to do what you used to do. And lets face it, if he wasnt on stage PRINCE was alone, countless people who knew him said this and like it or not even if he always seemed to smile that dont mean shit. If the stage is the only LOVE u have and now because of the physical things it seems you cant do that anymore the way you want, it weighs the spirit down, and then factor in what he was taking, and its just the tolls that life takes on us all and he was no different PRINCE was a human being like it or not, he had money and things but that means nothing later on.

lastdecember said:

I know that it is often hard for us fans to realize at the end of the day he was HUMAN. He felt things we all feel, we will never know what exactly he was feeling but we will always draw our own conclusions becasuse he put so much into the music and very seldom let the public in his private world, I mean I tell people he was married twice MOST dont even know he was married ONCE. I think later in life IMO Prince felt what anyone getting older (Yes PRINCE was getting older) feels. I mean things he dealt with personally with two marriages and of course the death of a child, all coming during a heated battle with his company, no one in his corner in those days fighting for artist rights, the name change, the jokes and yes he brought that on, all that scrutiny when he went indie with Emancipation, I mean his friend Bryant Gumble's question "the cd debut at 11 fell to 57 its still 57, arent you disappointed" I mean this was what he was always dealing with on that front, I mean how many artists that were getting older got questions and exact chart positions weekly. And then on his personal front, he always seemed to be searching for spiritual freedom and enlightment and I think he often felt let down by his own beliefs in things, and personal loss his parents, Vanity's death, also seeing your fellow musicians die, MJ, Whitney and David Bowie etc.... and then factor in getting older, looking back at relations he handled wrong, and then Physical pain of just getting older and not being able to do what you used to do. And lets face it, if he wasnt on stage PRINCE was alone, countless people who knew him said this and like it or not even if he always seemed to smile that dont mean shit. If the stage is the only LOVE u have and now because of the physical things it seems you cant do that anymore the way you want, it weighs the spirit down, and then factor in what he was taking, and its just the tolls that life takes on us all and he was no different PRINCE was a human being like it or not, he had money and things but that means nothing later on.

I empathize with his professional stress and the energy it took to deal with artist's rights and the record companies

The other stresses though; divorces, loss of parents/a child/friends/colleagues/, aches and pains of getting older, having to change direction based on one's aging process...these are existential and common to everyone who lives long enough. No one who is 57 is likely doing splits etc.

Also, most famous musicians did not have the lengthy career that Prince did, they had to let go of that, (at least the fame part) much earlier. He had many choices in lieu of performing, ie., teaching, producing, consulting, composing, mentoring etc. IMO, the people who age the best are the ones who graciously accept the limitations of aging and transition into something else just as satisfying but different.

He had choices, we all do.

What I just said applies to those who are fairly healthy.

IMO, he was very ill and likely grieving. Very sad to me that he could not share it... that's what gets to me.

Margot said:

lastdecember said:

I know that it is often hard for us fans to realize at the end of the day he was HUMAN. He felt things we all feel, we will never know what exactly he was feeling but we will always draw our own conclusions becasuse he put so much into the music and very seldom let the public in his private world, I mean I tell people he was married twice MOST dont even know he was married ONCE. I think later in life IMO Prince felt what anyone getting older (Yes PRINCE was getting older) feels. I mean things he dealt with personally with two marriages and of course the death of a child, all coming during a heated battle with his company, no one in his corner in those days fighting for artist rights, the name change, the jokes and yes he brought that on, all that scrutiny when he went indie with Emancipation, I mean his friend Bryant Gumble's question "the cd debut at 11 fell to 57 its still 57, arent you disappointed" I mean this was what he was always dealing with on that front, I mean how many artists that were getting older got questions and exact chart positions weekly. And then on his personal front, he always seemed to be searching for spiritual freedom and enlightment and I think he often felt let down by his own beliefs in things, and personal loss his parents, Vanity's death, also seeing your fellow musicians die, MJ, Whitney and David Bowie etc.... and then factor in getting older, looking back at relations he handled wrong, and then Physical pain of just getting older and not being able to do what you used to do. And lets face it, if he wasnt on stage PRINCE was alone, countless people who knew him said this and like it or not even if he always seemed to smile that dont mean shit. If the stage is the only LOVE u have and now because of the physical things it seems you cant do that anymore the way you want, it weighs the spirit down, and then factor in what he was taking, and its just the tolls that life takes on us all and he was no different PRINCE was a human being like it or not, he had money and things but that means nothing later on.

I empathize with his professional stress and the energy it took to deal with artist's rights and the record companies

The other stresses though; divorces, loss of parents/a child/friends/colleagues/, aches and pains of getting older, having to change direction based on one's aging process...these are existential and common to everyone who lives long enough. No one who is 57 is likely doing splits etc.

Also, most famous musicians did not have the lengthy career that Prince did, they had to let go of that, (at least the fame part) much earlier. He had many choices in lieu of performing, ie., teaching, producing, consulting, composing, mentoring etc. IMO, the people who age the best are the ones who graciously accept the limitations of aging and transition into something else just as satisfying but different.

He had choices, we all do.

What I just said applies to those who are fairly healthy.

IMO, he was very ill and likely grieving. Very sad to me that he could not share it... that's what gets to me.

which is what I was saying about him being alone, he's private and always was, yes he was in the public when doing music but let's face it he really started to just stop doing things, I mean he was not touring sure he popped up at award shows and did the random after shows but he really started to become this beyond the "wall" person. I know people don't like to hear it but Prince put up walls all his life and now that's all he knew was being Behind this wall, he was not going to reach out, he was not public, he surely was not going to live his pain and illness and addiction in public, that's not him at all. I just think the stage was his life, the creating music but then playing and I think the simple task of playing guitar was becoming an issue, let's look at Barry Gibb even when his brothers were alive and he was in his 40's he had stop tours and literally couldn't stand because of his singing high it was taxing his breathing and then back then he developed arthritis. Now he's a family man and even though he's grieving losing all his brothers he has kids and wife of almost fifty years tons of grand kids etc...Prince had relatives but how close was he with them? I mean Prince was coming apart very quickly it seemed since 2014

lastdecember said:

Margot said:

I empathize with his professional stress and the energy it took to deal with artist's rights and the record companies

The other stresses though; divorces, loss of parents/a child/friends/colleagues/, aches and pains of getting older, having to change direction based on one's aging process...these are existential and common to everyone who lives long enough. No one who is 57 is likely doing splits etc.

Also, most famous musicians did not have the lengthy career that Prince did, they had to let go of that, (at least the fame part) much earlier. He had many choices in lieu of performing, ie., teaching, producing, consulting, composing, mentoring etc. IMO, the people who age the best are the ones who graciously accept the limitations of aging and transition into something else just as satisfying but different.

He had choices, we all do.

What I just said applies to those who are fairly healthy.

IMO, he was very ill and likely grieving. Very sad to me that he could not share it... that's what gets to me.

which is what I was saying about him being alone, he's private and always was, yes he was in the public when doing music but let's face it he really started to just stop doing things, I mean he was not touring sure he popped up at award shows and did the random after shows but he really started to become this beyond the "wall" person. I know people don't like to hear it but Prince put up walls all his life and now that's all he knew was being Behind this wall, he was not going to reach out, he was not public, he surely was not going to live his pain and illness and addiction in public, that's not him at all. I just think the stage was his life, the creating music but then playing and I think the simple task of playing guitar was becoming an issue, let's look at Barry Gibb even when his brothers were alive and he was in his 40's he had stop tours and literally couldn't stand because of his singing high it was taxing his breathing and then back then he developed arthritis. Now he's a family man and even though he's grieving losing all his brothers he has kids and wife of almost fifty years tons of grand kids etc...Prince had relatives but how close was he with them? I mean Prince was coming apart very quickly it seemed since 2014

I agree with you. He was not going to live out his issues in public, but he did not have a basic, private support system in which he could share. He did not invest in mature, reliable people; it did not have to be a wife or family of origin. Josh/Hannah were too young, Kirk was an employee etc.

No one was really there for this 'coming apart' 2014 onwards.

The stage did seem to be his life and the possibility of not being able to do that one thing was likely

devastating.

lastdecember said:

Margot said:

I empathize with his professional stress and the energy it took to deal with artist's rights and the record companies

The other stresses though; divorces, loss of parents/a child/friends/colleagues/, aches and pains of getting older, having to change direction based on one's aging process...these are existential and common to everyone who lives long enough. No one who is 57 is likely doing splits etc.

Also, most famous musicians did not have the lengthy career that Prince did, they had to let go of that, (at least the fame part) much earlier. He had many choices in lieu of performing, ie., teaching, producing, consulting, composing, mentoring etc. IMO, the people who age the best are the ones who graciously accept the limitations of aging and transition into something else just as satisfying but different.

He had choices, we all do.

What I just said applies to those who are fairly healthy.

IMO, he was very ill and likely grieving. Very sad to me that he could not share it... that's what gets to me.

which is what I was saying about him being alone, he's private and always was, yes he was in the public when doing music but let's face it he really started to just stop doing things, I mean he was not touring sure he popped up at award shows and did the random after shows but he really started to become this beyond the "wall" person. I know people don't like to hear it but Prince put up walls all his life and now that's all he knew was being Behind this wall, he was not going to reach out, he was not public, he surely was not going to live his pain and illness and addiction in public, that's not him at all. I just think the stage was his life, the creating music but then playing and I think the simple task of playing guitar was becoming an issue, let's look at Barry Gibb even when his brothers were alive and he was in his 40's he had stop tours and literally couldn't stand because of his singing high it was taxing his breathing and then back then he developed arthritis. Now he's a family man and even though he's grieving losing all his brothers he has kids and wife of almost fifty years tons of grand kids etc...Prince had relatives but how close was he with them? I mean Prince was coming apart very quickly it seemed since 2014

Considering this in view of other famous musicians/performers like Barry Gibb is helpful and makes me think.

Couple of other thoughts.

1) Based on your observation of the walls that Prince had long put up, any stigma connected to illness may just have added to an already-there tendency for living behind walls. He was very closed off (at least as far as people knowing the "whole P") for so long. He seemed unlikely to share anything about a non-stigmatized illness, let alone a stigmatized one.

Of course there is value in privacy, but when very ill, hiding can hurt. Ability to more fully share oneself with at minimum a person or two...that ability can increase quality of life and increase safety. At least that's the case in the anecdote of my experience.

Also, I respect that some don't believe that P had any stigmatized illness. I think the evidence suggests that it's most likely P had a highly stigmatized medical condition in the form of a substance use condition going back many years.

Some people believe that P had additional significant medical conditions.

Once someone gets down the road a ways with such a substance use condition, it's often extremely hard for the person to curb use, and also often extremely hard for friends and family to help a person to do so. In more advanced stages, it's a condition that often involves very dangerous situations, and evidence suggests P may have been grappling for years.

For some people, substance use conditions connect to attempts at self-medication of other serious medical conditions. I find it utterly human and understandable to self-medicate. Often there are ensuing challenges in which the self-medication ends up in a place far-from-optimal for the target condition. In the long run, the substance-use and target conditions worsen each other.

For someone who has such complex challenges, and who may well find that self-medication attempts ultimately harm quality of life in the long run, it sure seems like it would be especially tough to go through it all relatively alone. Still, for everything close relationships with supportive and wise companions may bring, everyone knows that those relationships don't mean that a person will necessarily stop being seriously ill. A lot of times, cases of serious illness remain serious.

2) Prince would have contended with challenges common to many people as they age. As you and others have also pointed out, there also were challenges that, while shared by others, are not typical. Examples are fame and the challenges of being an artist/musician/performer...and, of course, the grief of losing a child.

Grateful that (at least from all indication), P's final years contained many instances of enjoyment as he interacted with people and made music.

[Edited 12/13/20 20:39pm]