Vannormal said:

wildgoldenhoney said:

Vannormal said:

wildgoldenhoney said:

IMO wanted to be Left alone, he didn't want the fame. Too many people who want his attention for their personal gain. Fleshy people, non spiritual. He didn't want that typical life (or fake life) that people desire (you know fame, and trophy wives). See my bed's made up at night 'Cause in my dreams I roam. Just trying to find, trying to find My way back, back home the fame and his part in that type of life hurt or disturbed him, He realizes he made a mistake because he was disillusioned by that life he strived for.

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I agree with your last sentece.

But not with"he didn't want fame.''

Because, oh yes! he wanted fame.

WHen he found out when he was very young what his skills and talent got get him, he got so hungry for stardom.

Don't forget where he came from, his entire childhood background for example. Feeling not always justified that he was loved which caused him to be torn between other parties and families.

Only, he did not know what becoming a star would bring along.

Like so many young artists with no guidance.

Plus, he deliberately did not accepted any form of guidance on top of that, lacking to develop trust in others.

The fact that he made it all by himself was kind of a serius gamble, based on his tremendous skills and talent. He just was lucky to have met those people who believed in him.

But those same people strugled to guide him or tried to advise him once he was famous.

Which he famously rejected.

Remember what The Revolution members said when they all of a sudden werre confronted with

bodyguards and seperate treatments while on the road etc...

For me it's obvious that he really really wanted to be a star, feeling recognised, appreciated and accepted.

''Baby I'm A Star'', ''My Name Is Prince'' ? I don't see many other artists write thesekind of songs,

except some self declared rappers late on. lol

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The lyrics you're refer too, are written by a man around his fifties, very typical imho.

He clearly was in a momentary reflective mood.

Only, it didn't last that long. He chose to flee ahead, again.

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You're right, let me reword the sentence:
He didn't want the fame ANYMORE because of how people reacted to his game.

If Prince really wanted to be left alone that would have been easy...he could have taken up gardening in the back of Paisley, color-coded/organized the vault, trained the doves to sing harmony...

the answer to this thread is quite simple. he wanted to be left alone... on HIS terms.

same as much else in his life.

wildgoldenhoney said:

wildgoldenhoney said:

You're right, let me reword the sentence: He didn't want the fame ANYMORE because of how people reacted to his game.

*Fame

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Margot said:

If Prince really wanted to be left alone that would have been easy...he could have taken up gardening in the back of Paisley, color-coded/organized the vault, trained the doves to sing harmony...

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Who? Prince ? That cheeky little purple squirel with the high and low pitched voice?

Gardening ? lol

You got me rolling on the floor, laughing my ass off.

I can see him trying to get his doves scream in harmony; ''shut up, already damn!.''

I specifically see him gardening in high heels.

He can easily plant carrots like that.

And if he would colour code his vault material it'll all be shades of purple.

Possibly on purpose so we would never be able to unriddle it all.

ROTFLOL!

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3rdeyedude said:

To say he died tragically alone is just an opinion. We all die one day, alone or with other people watching us die. It's about the experience you have while alive that matters. He was able to do what he wanted to do for the most part - and make enough money to continue doing it. I consider that lucky.

To say that being a parent would have changed him is also another opinion. I know some parents who are unprepared and it wrecks their life in many ways to have kids. I know other parents who brag about having kids as if they need that to feel normal.

I remember when I saw him perform The Breakdown in Las Vegas. 2/3 of the crowd were talking and hardly even noticed since he chose to open with it. I felt a bit sad for him then since I knew he wanted people to enjoy his music. It was the only time I felt sorry for him though. He wasn't the greatest human being in the world. But he was an amazing musician. I think he died happy. We just don't know it yet.

I appreciate the mostly thoughtful responses you and other have made. just wanted to be clear and highlight that I DID NOT saying being a parent would change him. I was lamenting the fact that he/we never got to see how it might have. Of course there are horrible parents, everywhere. And of course we all die alone, literally. I was attempting to be more thoughtful about his untimely passing. THIS kind of death was avoidable on so many levels. but the speculative realm, even with so much music, stories, and interviews to ponder still only gives an opaque narrative, so oversimplifications or a dogmatic posture never serves us well in these threads.

That's a very interesting observation of you seeing the audience response to him opening with The Breakdown. They wanted the hits, he wanted them to NOTICE him in that moment and what that song was communicating. The absence of a thoughtful intro like, "hey y'all, thanks so much for comin' out, y'all mind if i bare my soul a little bit tonight? I know y'all want the hits, we'll get to those, I have a lot of those..." but this is my new favorite song right, now, it's new. listen with me, see what you think..." Something like this, could've elicited the response and awareness he wanted from the crowd. Vulnerability is a learned skill and like I stated, sometimes the music doesn't suffice to communicate and connect.

datdude said:

3rdeyedude said:

To say he died tragically alone is just an opinion. We all die one day, alone or with other people watching us die. It's about the experience you have while alive that matters. He was able to do what he wanted to do for the most part - and make enough money to continue doing it. I consider that lucky.

To say that being a parent would have changed him is also another opinion. I know some parents who are unprepared and it wrecks their life in many ways to have kids. I know other parents who brag about having kids as if they need that to feel normal.

I remember when I saw him perform The Breakdown in Las Vegas. 2/3 of the crowd were talking and hardly even noticed since he chose to open with it. I felt a bit sad for him then since I knew he wanted people to enjoy his music. It was the only time I felt sorry for him though. He wasn't the greatest human being in the world. But he was an amazing musician. I think he died happy. We just don't know it yet.

I appreciate the mostly thoughtful responses you and other have made. just wanted to be clear and highlight that I DID NOT saying being a parent would change him. I was lamenting the fact that he/we never got to see how it might have. Of course there are horrible parents, everywhere. And of course we all die alone, literally. I was attempting to be more thoughtful about his untimely passing. THIS kind of death was avoidable on so many levels. but the speculative realm, even with so much music, stories, and interviews to ponder still only gives an opaque narrative, so oversimplifications or a dogmatic posture never serves us well in these threads.

That's a very interesting observation of you seeing the audience response to him opening with The Breakdown. They wanted the hits, he wanted them to NOTICE him in that moment and what that song was communicating. The absence of a thoughtful intro like, "hey y'all, thanks so much for comin' out, y'all mind if i bare my soul a little bit tonight? I know y'all want the hits, we'll get to those, I have a lot of those..." but this is my new favorite song right, now, it's new. listen with me, see what you think..." Something like this, could've elicited the response and awareness he wanted from the crowd. Vulnerability is a learned skill and like I stated, sometimes the music doesn't suffice to communicate and connect.

Like others, hearing that Breakdown performance story made me feel sad for Prince. Also, like others, I feel sad for the many who endured and were hurt by what Prince could dish out. It's hard not to get angry when hearing how badly Prince could treat people. Not to say I believe every story, but it seems impossible that there's not a pattern given all the stories that are out there. My guess is that the worst of what he dished out reflected serious ego/insecurity difficulties.

Your example of what he might have said to his audience that night makes me think. I sometimes imagine that situations of communicating with an audience or other group (vs. one-on-one) may have tended easier for someone like Prince to interact (and also give SO much of himself). That Breakdown perfomance example reminds me that even these situations could be challenging. And, as you suggest, might benefit from a different approach at times. Loved reading the intro you might have given!

Based again on the many stories I've heard, it seems like a kind, generous, nuturing side of Prince could come out (at times even one-on-one) when he approached someone struggling in life and down on luck. There are very touching stories of Prince warmly offering wisdom, advice, significant financial assistance, etc.

With some notable exceptions, perhaps it was generally easier for Prince to be comfortable via an image of him reaching down to pull someone else up, vs. the other way 'round. An Orger used to often observe that he was "a hard man to help."

Not to say that he wasn't happy to have people work hard to serve him, but he seemed to (again) frame that as Prince-reaching-down-to-people vs. people reaching to give him a helping hand up. People often worked extremely hard for Prince, but he seemed of the mindset that he was entitled to those going-the-26-extra-miles performances as the nature of Paisley employment. P seemed to operate as if granting the (truly!) great privilege of being part of the Paisley enterprise somehow justified at times treating employees as if they were merely extensions of that Paisley enterprise. To put it another way, he could deal with employees as if he'd lost sight of the fact that they were full, independent human beings that should connect with his world...vs. be absorbed by his world.

Finally coming full circle re: introducing songs, you might know that the New York Times just ran a video that opens with Prince introducing Sign 'O the Times song to the audience. He gives a nod to 1987 and explains that he's not much of a talker (not a "speech" person). He then says he'll instead turn to what he does best, and he starts singing the song. This NYT video continues with interviews, video clips, etc., and it comes back to touch on Prince's tendency to communicate through music in situations where others might converse.

thread on NYT video:

https://prince.org/msg/7/465277

[Edited 12/4/20 19:33pm]

Vannormal said:

Margot said:

If Prince really wanted to be left alone that would have been easy...he could have taken up gardening in the back of Paisley, color-coded/organized the vault, trained the doves to sing harmony...

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Who? Prince ? That cheeky little purple squirel with the high and low pitched voice?

Gardening ? lol

You got me rolling on the floor, laughing my ass off.

I can see him trying to get his doves scream in harmony; ''shut up, already damn!.''

I specifically see him gardening in high heels.

He can easily plant carrots like that.

And if he would colour code his vault material it'll all be shades of purple.

Possibly on purpose so we would never be able to unriddle it all.

ROTFLOL!

-

Just trying to have a little fun, LOL.

In Prince's last year, he actually seemed to spend more time alone. Of course I was not there,

but he seemed to be tapering down.

I think he was ambivalent about being 'left alone.'

I remember watching a video of him as a very young man talking to his fams about feeling love from an audience and wanting to build a 'club-house' or die trying, so he could continue communicating with his fams through his music. This process seemed very important to him.

As an artist, he would have needed quite a bit of alone time to create.

I don't see him as walking away from the music scene.

Re:Prince as a parent...I think he had a fair amount of fantasy about what it is really like to be a parent full-time, kind of like the falling in love phase with many women. There was a history of leaving relationships and this habit, IMO, made him high-risk.

I think Prince would have always provided financial support to any children he would have had but

would have been at risk for wanting to escape the mundanities of child-rearing. It takes alot of tolerance to deal with grind of parenting, especially young children.

I think it would have been a challenge for him.

[Edited 12/4/20 16:45pm]

[Edited 12/4/20 17:01pm]

Dalia11 said:

I am a "loner" myself, so I can "Relate" to that Side of Prince's Personality!

I can too. I have no judgement...just his past history.

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

Communicating with fans or a concert audience is such a diff thing from personal one on one or small group interaction. For one thing, the power balance in a concert or artist/fan setting is so much more skewed towards the former.

I agree. It seemed to be the way he best communicated, though.

He seemed to be fine with those he knew, but not so much with others.

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

Communicating with fans or a concert audience is such a diff thing from personal one on one or small group interaction. For one thing, the power balance in a concert or artist/fan setting is so much more skewed towards the former.

Yes, kind of like what I tried to describe in my above tome about Prince seeming to prefer the position and the view from the top, reaching down to bestow on his terms.

With small groups or one-on-one, many have said he had plenty of "bad days" heavy on his put-downs. Sadly, he seemed to struggle to have relationships with those he knew well that didn't involve him doing a good deal of mind games, caginess, meanness, etc. It does seem like a recipe for relationships of limited intimacy and longevity.

[Edited 12/5/20 5:55am]

Dalia11 said:

Everyone has a past history(Except Virgins!). He was a Musician Man not a "Pope-Man" or "Priest-Man" and even "THEY" have their moments of "Temptation".

Musician Women, and pretty much all other women : ), get in on that Temptation, too! Agree that it's just plain human!

to you, Dalia11

[Edited 12/5/20 6:00am]

Sad that P didn't live to meet Hannah and Josh's daughter.

He was so excited about her upcoming birth.

Margot said:

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

Communicating with fans or a concert audience is such a diff thing from personal one on one or small group interaction. For one thing, the power balance in a concert or artist/fan setting is so much more skewed towards the former.

In my previous post I was referring to comments Prince made to his audience about "feeling love" while he performed. He seemed very sincere in his promise that he would build a "clubhouse" or die trying so he could continue to try to please his fans. I came away from that video with the feeling that that was how he felt love...and that he sincerely wanted it. I did not feel he was trying to exert power.

Also, he played at his own parties, 3121,and if he was not playing, he could sometimes be found upstairs or on the stairs, watching. I just think he had a hard time schmoozing with unknown people.

Not a guy for cocktail chatter.

With his own associates, he was quite dominant, but not so in the greater world, unless performing.

Sad also that P didn't live to see Meghan and Harry's son.

He would have been so excited about their birth.

fortuneandserendipity said:

Sad also that P didn't live to see Meghan and Harry's son.

He would have been so excited about their birth.

Sorry, I can be a little slow and I'm lost here. Are you saying that Josh was lying when he said Prince was excited about their daughter's upcoming birth? And that P said he would like to be involved in their daughter's life, and asked if he could? And that P asked, "Should we build a school for her?" That last question is a bit wild, but has a very typical Princely sound to me.

Are you saying that Prince would not have been involved in the way of parental responsibilities?

Well...of course he wouldn't have.

If you believe Josh and Hannah, it sounds like he wished for, and was excited about, being like an honorary grandpa, or honorary uncle.

According to Josh and Hannah, Prince didn't want to be left entirely alone by their family.

Or...re: your comment about Meghan and Harry, have I just lost my sense of humor?

Here's one source. At 54:20, Hannah and Josh give their impression of how P reacted when he found out they were expecting a child.

https://www.facebook.com/...7501433606


One last thing. When this video was posted here at the Org, a good number of people posted things along the lines of finding Josh and Hannah annoying. These sorts of reactions aren't uncommon here. A lot of people find Wendy and Lisa to be annoying, "loud," grand in their statements of involvement with P, etc.

All I'll say about that is that Prince chose to spend a fair amount of time with all of these people. His choice.

fortuneandserendipity said:

Sad also that P didn't live to see Meghan and Harry's son.

He would have been so excited about their birth.

Meghan and Harry's son, Archie?

Margot said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

Sad also that P didn't live to see Meghan and Harry's son.

He would have been so excited about their birth.

Meghan and Harry's son, Archie?

Yes, but more a point about cognitive dissonance. I don't think men get terribly excited about the birth of an associate i.e. slight friendship. Words can easily be twisted or exaggerated.

fortuneandserendipity said:

Margot said:

Meghan and Harry's son, Archie?

Yes, but more a point about cognitive dissonance. I don't think men get terribly excited about the birth of an associate i.e. slight friendship. Words can easily be twisted or exaggerated.

If I may be so presumptuous as to speculate, it seemed Prince very genuinely wanted, and DID EXPERIENCE, love from people in his audiences and others, e.g. associates.

It also seemed like the nature/dynamics present in many relationships (through which he sometimes publicly stated that he felt love) put limits on certain sorts of vulnerability, and letting people in, as to more fully get to know one another. IMO, it limited possiblities for intimacy and longevity of those relationships.

Prince really seemed to love encounters with kids, and perhaps the relationship dynamics of him being "the adult" were part of what helped it be comfortable. Prince's interactions with kids could come across as endearingly spontaneous, unfiltered, and nonthreatening. Of course, any story could be a lie, but here's one. A boy asked him why he was all dressed up in women's clothes. The person telling the story said Prince thought this was hilarious.

But aside from any "I'm the adult here" dynamics, I think there was more. I think of how something I absolutely LOVE about Prince was how he was so playful. He delighted in playfulness. I would guess that also had plenty to do with the way he was with kids.

And honorary grandparent/uncle/etc. relationships are ususally completely unlike parental relationships in terms of demands and their effect on solitude, etc.

Anyway, fortuneandserendipity, if you have time to watch a few minutes of this video starting at 54:20, I'd ask for your assessment of the degree to which Hannah and Josh may have twisted or exaggerated Prince's words and actions in this particular instance. Otherwise, thank you for your thoughts, and thanks for the puppet meme.

https://www.facebook.com/...7501433606

[Edited 12/7/20 8:45am]

Well the story seems genuine, the way it's told. But men generally don't give a shit about other people's kids, even extended family. It has to be their own family. Maybe he thought himself some sort of foster parents to H and J, and so their kid would be like his grandkid.

Hate to put a dampener on it, as well but if P experienced as much love from fans and assoicates as you say, then he would still be here. And it's definitely true of men, when depressed they much prefer to be left alone.
True, it may be introverts also prefer to be alone, just not all the time. As far as I know he wasn't keeping in regular contact with anyone from 3rd Eye Girl towards the end. And according to those who knew him best, Kirk J and Judith Hill he was being more solitary.

Dalia11 said:

My father left me and my mother when I was seven, he did not want to be a father(to me), my Pisces father probably had other kids with other women in the late 1970s! Men are Dogs!!!

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Hm

To get fooled, you need be with two.

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Women can be hard too.

Just saying, men are not the only ones in this...

Pece though.

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[Edited 12/9/20 7:42am]

datdude said:

again, IMO oversimplifications and dogmatic postures abt something we can only piecemeal at best does not add value to a layered and complex person with issues like we all have. to say that "men generally don't give a shit about others peoples kids" is a ridiculous generalization that my own experience in my relational circles debunks dozens of times over, and I'm just ONE member of half the planet of ppl u just put into a box. but "fortune" u also reiterate my main point in a way when u say he'd still be here if...his selective engagement with ppl as a natural loner stunted his ability to MAXIMIZE those relationships when he DID engage them. Some ppl actually struggle to RECEIVE the love of others, so called "tough love" included. For him it seemed like it was both and with age, patterns had set in where the power dynamic remained, u enabled him, or u were toperated from a distance

I hate generalizations, oversimplications and doggy style postures but i have to say in my experience women tend to be tougher on in-laws and men tougher on *coughs* outlaws, that is people who aren't part of your immediate circle, close friends.

But please don't take what I say out of context. When I said "men generally don't give a shit about others peoples kids" I meant in light of H and J's remarks quoting P being really excited. Yeah I'm sure he was doing somersaults, same as all men do after hearing a friend of theirs is about to give birth. It's easy to exaggerate when it comes to recalling people's reaction to events. Trust me. I'm a psychologist.