emesem said:

I'd say 1998 (started around NPS) through 2009. I think by 20Ten he was more at easy with his "old man at the club" status.

yassss old man at the club.

Margot said:

Vannormal said:

-

Oh, I totally agree.

In fact, a creative process has nothing to do with age.

About what is important with 'instant success' - I don't remember who or where, but I read an article somewhere about the pros and cons of success in the lives of all kinds of artists (which turned out to be different even for men and women).

The sooner it comes, the greater the public's expectations and recognitions are.

It is often being received by a very young public first.

Success can be repeated. But it will always be weighed again and thus differently with what was achieved before.

For example, if success comes from innovation, it is often viewed by the public as a competitive victory over what is currently going on.

It is a kind of mass appreciation of the instant 'new', but not immediately on the quality. (Damn, I have to find that article again.)

But to answer the bold part of your answer; 'I'd put down to being a bit isolated and introverted' Isolated; I do not fully agree. Many isolated artists have made tremendous achievements in life, and the same is true for those who are the introvert. Sure Prince was a bit of both, but for me it was something else.

-

I believe that he worked so hard to make sure what he could do best, to hide any insecurities (or weaknesses if you like) and his inner complexes.

For example a self-righteous song like 'My Name Is Prince' ?!

That lyric is pretty boastful in many ways, even beyond the sense of humor, should it be the case.

I believe he wrote that at the time (when he was upon his second succesful wave) like as if this song was an answer to the new musical developments that occured.

It was obvious that he wasn't the game changer anymore.

We all know he had a very turbulent childhood with possible very divided parental love and shifting structures.

He's also this quintessential American Dream boy, a self-made young fellow, tremendously driven, with extraordinarily self tought and developed skills, his particular staunch belief in music making.

And in addition, what a character!

And the fact that he was so cute and goodlooking - it is a fact that those kind of people always have some advatages.

He had trouble believing in people, learning to trust them - he himself said that over and over.

From an early age he had too much freedom to do what he wanted.

Knowing that it is very difficult to make room for imposed or even collaborative creativity.
Especially after you have tasted that quickly acquired freedom?

I mean, that's quite a serious burden on the shoulders of a young twenties.

And on top of that, all that money and the possibility to make endless plans.

When he built Paisley Park, etc, Actually, PP didn't always run that well.

He had to tour a lot, play the hits, make money and keep his lifestyle up to standard.

Regularly firing his entourage, accounts, managers, lawyers, etc.

The man has accomplished an awful lot in his life, but just couldn't bear to listen to others.

Perhaps that's why after The Revolution he supposedly wanted to surround himself safely with only people who wouldn't get in his way.

But we often have the guesswork with this particularly complex purple fella.

That's what makes it so interesting, of course. (All in my humble opinon). -

-

[Edited 11/8/20 1:26am]

Enjoyed both of your posts.

I think there might be something about not being around enough equals; people he could have trusted and listened to. When he was a younger man, he collaborated with equals.

I can understand the need to develop into the boss, but it might have gone too far.

Many celebrities can count on spouses to keep it real.

-

When The Time was still around, he kinda had musical equals, but he ruled them, restricted them even.

He was a more than a bit bossy of course.

Susan Rogers once explained about the competition he felt, like with Michael Jackson, with Madonna etc.

He was pretty confident about that.

The only musician i feel he had no competition with was Lenny kravitz or d'Anelo or all these that came much later in his carreer.

Prince was Lenny's idol, or maybe even smarter, he knew his position.

Spouses ? Prince had a strange, if not ambiguous relationship with women in general and certainly with his loved ones.

He adored women though, he really was a ladies man.

Basically I dare to say that you bring it all back to a basis mistrust.

As an alpha male, he has fucked around quite a bit.

How many relationships did he had in his life we barely know of ?

The guy seriously knew how to use his charm and looks and skills for sure. Can't blame him though. lol

And women loved him too.

And yet he sang about his poor broken heart and other (cheesy victimised) feelings when women left him or took their own sexual turn.

-

Vannormal said:

Margot said:

Enjoyed both of your posts.

I think there might be something about not being around enough equals; people he could have trusted and listened to. When he was a younger man, he collaborated with equals.

I can understand the need to develop into the boss, but it might have gone too far.

Many celebrities can count on spouses to keep it real.

-

When The Time was still around, he kinda had musical equals, but he ruled them, restricted them even.

He was a more than a bit bossy of course.

Susan Rogers once explained about the competition he felt, like with Michael Jackson, with Madonna etc.

He was pretty confident about that.

The only musician i feel he had no competition with was Lenny kravitz or d'Anelo or all these that came much later in his carreer.

Prince was Lenny's idol, or maybe even smarter, he knew his position.

Spouses ? Prince had a strange, if not ambiguous relationship with women in general and certainly with his loved ones.

He adored women though, he really was a ladies man.

Basically I dare to say that you bring it all back to a basis mistrust.

As an alpha male, he has fucked around quite a bit.

How many relationships did he had in his life we barely know of ?

The guy seriously knew how to use his charm and looks and skills for sure. Can't blame him though. lol

And women loved him too.

And yet he sang about his poor broken heart and other (cheesy victimised) feelings when women left him or took their own sexual turn.

-

I think he was less controlling with Dez, Andre, Lisa; a bit more collaborative. But Dez was difficult

to manage, same with Andre. He likely learned to be the boss to make things more efficient.

The Time...he was super controlling.

I don't think Prince could compromise enough to be married, but a good spouse won't allow too much ego.

[Edited 11/9/20 8:20am]

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

Derek880 said:

No. He never got rid of his views or values. But I think what many people miss as they follow his career is the moves that he made for the sake of "cross-over". No one will ever convince me that he saw the Revolution as the "best" musicians he ever played with. From a business standpoint, he knew exactly what he was doing in order to get media attention and to be played on white stations and MTV. Just like Sly Stone did. Once he no longer needed that, (even though he was genre-less), he disbanded them, evolved the NPG bands, went back to his funk and R&B roots and ended up with bands full of some extremely incredible musicians. That's when he finally let himself loosen up. A lot of the collaborators have things to say, but many of the media stories are so obsessed with the 80s that all we hear are Revolution voices. There was a podcast recently with Levi that was one of the best I've heard so far. It was incredible to hear new stories about a more laid-back Prince who was basically recording almost a song a day with the NPG.

So in short, yes, he shed his internalised values as he got older. Tbh, that aside, you're obv not wrong. Its just, was that 'relaxed' prince writing better songs than that 'crossover' prince? You tell me. I def dont think the revolution was his best band (that's the 87-88 band.) as for black women, or darker skinned women in his bands, you must have missed boni boyer and rosie gaines from 87 to 1992. Princes commercial instincts never stopped even as he got older. The reason he made emancipation 3 discs was he learned that MJ got more sales recorded on the History release as it was a double disc set. Prince decided to go one better. You think he only went more rnb as he got older cos he got more relaxed? No, it was also that rnb and rap were commercially dominating. Also, prince just couldn't write inventive pop songs anymore. i also object to this idea that prince only tried to mix up his sound or broached rock because he was courting a white audience/knew he had to do make it in the mainstream - prince just LIKED rock music. and that was a political point - showing that black artists could do other genres outside of what was expected. you think if prince only incorporated rock into his music to make it big, he would have done things like the undertaker album in 1994 or the hitnrun tours in the 2010s? i dont think so. But as Alan Leeds said, and to bring it back to this idea of a mid life lull, he retreated from trying to keep up after a certain point and just went into a kind of retro route as he got older. Made himself a keeper of the old school rnb flame. On one hand thats maybe smart. On the other hand, I do think that's a sign of ageing. You can say that's not a mid life crisis exactly, but its def a mid life.... period of uncertainty. And yes he had a celeb lifestyle, but many ppl wonder about their lives, careers, relationships etc as they enter middle age. I dont think prince was any different. [Edited 11/3/20 23:19pm] [Edited 11/4/20 1:18am] [Edited 11/4/20 6:27am]

Later on, in my opinion, he DEFINITELY wrote better songs. The Emancipation album is full of great songs, and though some "fans" take issue with it, The Rainbow Children is an amazing piece of original work. Art Official Age was overlooked, but was loaded with good R&B work. Off the top of my head, I can name at least 10 songs in the 2000 era that were better than When Doves Cry. To be honest, (and this may offend some)...without the Purple Rain movie or the videos, the Purple Rain album would not have received anywhere near the media recognition. I could see some of his later work being responsible for him being a mega-star and blowing him up, but not Purple Rain. Funk and R&B was always a part of his life. I don't think it had anything to do with commercialization. The 80s was his commercialization/crossover period. Once he broke that barrier, he didn't really need to maintain The Revolution. Near the end, he surrounded himself with people that looked like him and that he could connect to on a more cultural level. I think he did that because he needed that. What's lost in so much of the hoopla of fans trying to re-create his life is that Prince was always a Black man. No matter who was in his band. Creating The Revolution was him simply playing the game with the hand that he was given. When he no longer had to play the game, he was free to develop what he wanted as his vision changed.

Derek880 said:

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

Derek880 said: So in short, yes, he shed his internalised values as he got older. Tbh, that aside, you're obv not wrong. Its just, was that 'relaxed' prince writing better songs than that 'crossover' prince? You tell me. I def dont think the revolution was his best band (that's the 87-88 band.) as for black women, or darker skinned women in his bands, you must have missed boni boyer and rosie gaines from 87 to 1992. Princes commercial instincts never stopped even as he got older. The reason he made emancipation 3 discs was he learned that MJ got more sales recorded on the History release as it was a double disc set. Prince decided to go one better. You think he only went more rnb as he got older cos he got more relaxed? No, it was also that rnb and rap were commercially dominating. Also, prince just couldn't write inventive pop songs anymore. i also object to this idea that prince only tried to mix up his sound or broached rock because he was courting a white audience/knew he had to do make it in the mainstream - prince just LIKED rock music. and that was a political point - showing that black artists could do other genres outside of what was expected. you think if prince only incorporated rock into his music to make it big, he would have done things like the undertaker album in 1994 or the hitnrun tours in the 2010s? i dont think so. But as Alan Leeds said, and to bring it back to this idea of a mid life lull, he retreated from trying to keep up after a certain point and just went into a kind of retro route as he got older. Made himself a keeper of the old school rnb flame. On one hand thats maybe smart. On the other hand, I do think that's a sign of ageing. You can say that's not a mid life crisis exactly, but its def a mid life.... period of uncertainty. And yes he had a celeb lifestyle, but many ppl wonder about their lives, careers, relationships etc as they enter middle age. I dont think prince was any different. [Edited 11/3/20 23:19pm] [Edited 11/4/20 1:18am] [Edited 11/4/20 6:27am]

Later on, in my opinion, he DEFINITELY wrote better songs. The Emancipation album is full of great songs, and though some "fans" take issue with it, The Rainbow Children is an amazing piece of original work. Art Official Age was overlooked, but was loaded with good R&B work. Off the top of my head, I can name at least 10 songs in the 2000 era that were better than When Doves Cry. To be honest, (and this may offend some)...without the Purple Rain movie or the videos, the Purple Rain album would not have received anywhere near the media recognition. I could see some of his later work being responsible for him being a mega-star and blowing him up, but not Purple Rain. Funk and R&B was always a part of his life. I don't think it had anything to do with commercialization. The 80s was his commercialization/crossover period. Once he broke that barrier, he didn't really need to maintain The Revolution. Near the end, he surrounded himself with people that looked like him and that he could connect to on a more cultural level. I think he did that because he needed that. What's lost in so much of the hoopla of fans trying to re-create his life is that Prince was always a Black man. No matter who was in his band. Creating The Revolution was him simply playing the game with the hand that he was given. When he no longer had to play the game, he was free to develop what he wanted as his vision changed.

Why did he choose to create 3EG, then? (2-3 years) Not along his cultural lines.

Derek880 said:

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

Derek880 said: So in short, yes, he shed his internalised values as he got older. Tbh, that aside, you're obv not wrong. Its just, was that 'relaxed' prince writing better songs than that 'crossover' prince? You tell me. I def dont think the revolution was his best band (that's the 87-88 band.) as for black women, or darker skinned women in his bands, you must have missed boni boyer and rosie gaines from 87 to 1992. Princes commercial instincts never stopped even as he got older. The reason he made emancipation 3 discs was he learned that MJ got more sales recorded on the History release as it was a double disc set. Prince decided to go one better. You think he only went more rnb as he got older cos he got more relaxed? No, it was also that rnb and rap were commercially dominating. Also, prince just couldn't write inventive pop songs anymore. i also object to this idea that prince only tried to mix up his sound or broached rock because he was courting a white audience/knew he had to do make it in the mainstream - prince just LIKED rock music. and that was a political point - showing that black artists could do other genres outside of what was expected. you think if prince only incorporated rock into his music to make it big, he would have done things like the undertaker album in 1994 or the hitnrun tours in the 2010s? i dont think so. But as Alan Leeds said, and to bring it back to this idea of a mid life lull, he retreated from trying to keep up after a certain point and just went into a kind of retro route as he got older. Made himself a keeper of the old school rnb flame. On one hand thats maybe smart. On the other hand, I do think that's a sign of ageing. You can say that's not a mid life crisis exactly, but its def a mid life.... period of uncertainty. And yes he had a celeb lifestyle, but many ppl wonder about their lives, careers, relationships etc as they enter middle age. I dont think prince was any different. [Edited 11/3/20 23:19pm] [Edited 11/4/20 1:18am] [Edited 11/4/20 6:27am]

Later on, in my opinion, he DEFINITELY wrote better songs. The Emancipation album is full of great songs, and though some "fans" take issue with it, The Rainbow Children is an amazing piece of original work. Art Official Age was overlooked, but was loaded with good R&B work. Off the top of my head, I can name at least 10 songs in the 2000 era that were better than When Doves Cry. To be honest, (and this may offend some)...without the Purple Rain movie or the videos, the Purple Rain album would not have received anywhere near the media recognition. I could see some of his later work being responsible for him being a mega-star and blowing him up, but not Purple Rain. Funk and R&B was always a part of his life. I don't think it had anything to do with commercialization. The 80s was his commercialization/crossover period. Once he broke that barrier, he didn't really need to maintain The Revolution. Near the end, he surrounded himself with people that looked like him and that he could connect to on a more cultural level. I think he did that because he needed that. What's lost in so much of the hoopla of fans trying to re-create his life is that Prince was always a Black man. No matter who was in his band. Creating The Revolution was him simply playing the game with the hand that he was given. When he no longer had to play the game, he was free to develop what he wanted as his vision changed.

true, purple rain was just corny crossover pop BS (which he started with little red corvette). if im honest, the real compromises prince made werent in the 90s, they were in the 80s. the only pure and true records prince made were the first two albums. from 1980 to 1986, he was obv just doing anything to get the white dollar. he started to get back in touch with the real prince sound inside him after that period, but it was really in 1991 that he got there, when he reconnected with old friends and musicians, and got a black band at last. same with hendrix. his music was just compromised and stymied until he got rid of the experience and got the band of gypsies. really though, prince never liked rock music, he just got into it and learnt it as he knew its what white people would want to hear. D&P is actually the *real* prince, he just couldnt go there until 91. prince just made people think that he was into rock music, but really he just wanted to play rnb and funk only, but the white masses forced his hand. first it was the mainstream white audience he was trying to appeal to, then the hipster white crowds with ATWIAD and parade. all corny, cravenly commercial crossover records. only reason people dont see it this way is cos the industry and journalists have made it seem like rock/pop prince is better than R&B/funk prince.

[Edited 11/9/20 12:15pm]

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

Derek880 said:

Later on, in my opinion, he DEFINITELY wrote better songs. The Emancipation album is full of great songs, and though some "fans" take issue with it, The Rainbow Children is an amazing piece of original work. Art Official Age was overlooked, but was loaded with good R&B work. Off the top of my head, I can name at least 10 songs in the 2000 era that were better than When Doves Cry. To be honest, (and this may offend some)...without the Purple Rain movie or the videos, the Purple Rain album would not have received anywhere near the media recognition. I could see some of his later work being responsible for him being a mega-star and blowing him up, but not Purple Rain. Funk and R&B was always a part of his life. I don't think it had anything to do with commercialization. The 80s was his commercialization/crossover period. Once he broke that barrier, he didn't really need to maintain The Revolution. Near the end, he surrounded himself with people that looked like him and that he could connect to on a more cultural level. I think he did that because he needed that. What's lost in so much of the hoopla of fans trying to re-create his life is that Prince was always a Black man. No matter who was in his band. Creating The Revolution was him simply playing the game with the hand that he was given. When he no longer had to play the game, he was free to develop what he wanted as his vision changed.

true, purple rain was just corny crossover pop BS (which he started with little red corvette). if im honest, the real compromises prince made werent in the 90s, they were in the 80s. the only pure and true records prince made were the first two albums. from 1980 to 1986, he was obv just doing anything to get the white dollar. he started to get back in touch with the real prince sound inside him after that period, but it was really in 1991 that he got there, when he reconnected with old friends and musicians, and got a black band at last. same with hendrix. his music was just compromised and stymied until he got rid of the experience and got the band of gypsies. really though, prince never liked rock music, he just got into it and learnt it as he knew its what white people would want to hear. D&P is actually the *real* prince, he just couldnt go there until 91. prince just made people think that he was into rock music, but really he just wanted to play rnb and funk only, but the white masses forced his hand. first it was the mainstream white audience he was trying to appeal to, then the hipster white crowds with ATWIAD and parade. all corny, cravenly commercial crossover records. only reason people dont see it this way is cos the industry and journalists have made it seem like rock/pop prince is better than R&B/funk prince.

[Edited 11/9/20 12:15pm]

Why all this almost all-or-nothing sounding stuff with Prince and rock? Also, I'm just grabbing one song. Maybe not the best example, but then why bother making Endorphinmachine post-D&P?

Also, as I noted on another thread, a couple of things I've read have claimed that Prince said that he deliberately did not make his first two albums a direct reflection of his most straight-up musical self. He characterized that straight-up thing as something that would have had songs that were on average longer, and more with just his voice and acoustic guitar. He said that the (first-two-album) songs that were like this tended to be his favorites. Cannot get the reference claiming this right now, but will do later. Not at all saying that longer acoustic guitar songs equal rock. Just that the reference says that the first two albums weren't exactly what he might have made if he was making those albums for himself only.

[Edited 11/9/20 12:30pm]

holy river, endorphin machine, he only wrote to make purple rain fans happy. the love we make too. also, one of us. the thing is prince so internalised the crossover mentalty that he didnt even know what he was doing. only true observers like derek understood that the music truest to the real prince, the black prince, was the music he made with black people or by himself, for black people. not the crossover stuff. he just did that for the money. as for those first two albums and prince saying it wasnt really him, that was just him trying to cater to white people again, so they would think purple rain was the real prince. see how deep it goes? if prince didnt know he had to make white rock to get the masses and make some real money, hed have been making music like what jam and lewis were making in the 80s. so its best to just disregard those albums white critics like so much. they were compromised!

[Edited 11/9/20 12:41pm]

[Edited 11/9/20 12:42pm]

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

Derek880 said:

Later on, in my opinion, he DEFINITELY wrote better songs. The Emancipation album is full of great songs, and though some "fans" take issue with it, The Rainbow Children is an amazing piece of original work. Art Official Age was overlooked, but was loaded with good R&B work. Off the top of my head, I can name at least 10 songs in the 2000 era that were better than When Doves Cry. To be honest, (and this may offend some)...without the Purple Rain movie or the videos, the Purple Rain album would not have received anywhere near the media recognition. I could see some of his later work being responsible for him being a mega-star and blowing him up, but not Purple Rain. Funk and R&B was always a part of his life. I don't think it had anything to do with commercialization. The 80s was his commercialization/crossover period. Once he broke that barrier, he didn't really need to maintain The Revolution. Near the end, he surrounded himself with people that looked like him and that he could connect to on a more cultural level. I think he did that because he needed that. What's lost in so much of the hoopla of fans trying to re-create his life is that Prince was always a Black man. No matter who was in his band. Creating The Revolution was him simply playing the game with the hand that he was given. When he no longer had to play the game, he was free to develop what he wanted as his vision changed.

true, purple rain was just corny crossover pop BS (which he started with little red corvette). if im honest, the real compromises prince made werent in the 90s, they were in the 80s. the only pure and true records prince made were the first two albums. from 1980 to 1986, he was obv just doing anything to get the white dollar. he started to get back in touch with the real prince sound inside him after that period, but it was really in 1991 that he got there, when he reconnected with old friends and musicians, and got a black band at last. same with hendrix. his music was just compromised and stymied until he got rid of the experience and got the band of gypsies. really though, prince never liked rock music, he just got into it and learnt it as he knew its what white people would want to hear. D&P is actually the *real* prince, he just couldnt go there until 91. prince just made people think that he was into rock music, but really he just wanted to play rnb and funk only, but the white masses forced his hand. first it was the mainstream white audience he was trying to appeal to, then the hipster white crowds with ATWIAD and parade. all corny, cravenly commercial crossover records. only reason people dont see it this way is cos the industry and journalists have made it seem like rock/pop prince is better than R&B/funk prince.

[Edited 11/9/20 12:15pm]

It's sort of hard to disagree with you, though I would like to! To me 1999 was on a different level and was the true mega-star Prince. Songs like Little Red Covette and Automatic, simply blow When Doves Cry out of the water. But like you alluded to...he was a businessman and wanted to make sure that he got that crossover money. I think you hit the nail on the head with D&P as it has a different funk/R&B vibe than anything else before it. His desire to be R&B/funk Prince is why he saw no need to do a Revolution reunion or maintain them. He was past that while far too many fans were claiming that he "needed" them. In my opinion, the industry and the journalists NEVER really knew Prince. Their need to whitewash him caused them to miss out on so much that he was creating and playing from the 90s until he left this earth. Thankfully some of us grabbed a hold of that prolific era and never let go.

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

holy river, endorphin machine, he only wrote to make purple rain fans happy. the love we make too. also, one of us. the thing is prince so internalised the crossover mentalty that he didnt even know what he was doing. only true observers like derek understood that the music truest to the real prince, the black prince, was the music he made with black people or by himself, for black people. not the crossover stuff. he just did that for the money. as for those first two albums and prince saying it wasnt really him, that was just him trying to cater to white people again, so they would think purple rain was the real prince. see how deep it goes?

[Edited 11/9/20 12:39pm]

I am close with someone who has devoted herself to, among other things, making podcasts concerned with much of what you are speaking to.

I am not Black.

I couldn't agree more that Prince as a Black man should NOT be erased. I feel ridiculous even writing that because there's no way to write it that doesn't seem way too much like stating the obvious, and that sort of stuff that goes on...it's horribly destructive. I've said here before, that there are many things that people may have in commone with Prince, but I'd imagine that being black gives a person more of a chance for insight and understanding than anything else.

But your statements...that Prince didn't like rock, and he ONLY made rock songs to win a white audience. These are things that were not known to me. Could you provide references? I will also bring out the reference that I referred to above when I get home. As I noted earlier, the couple of references I've read regarding Prince's feelings about his first two albums may obviously not be correct, and that's a good part of why it's good to know what the references that people cite are.

I haven't read anything/heard any interviews, etc. telling me that Prince didn't like rock at all and only made rock songs to cross over. I am very open to being educated.

I do think I get the crossover ideas to some extent, but probably not the extent of the most sophisticated. I understand that Prince wanted access that would be denied him if categorized and marketed a certain way. I'm old enough to remember those days. I remember the "Black" categories on award shows, how MTV started like a prejudiced country club, the burning of disco records, etc., etc. I get that Prince didn't claim his mom was Italian for the heck of it.

Finally, just want to make sure (as everyone here is aware) that I don't leave out that we wouldn't have rock and roll if we didn't have Black musicians making music that was a big part of its inspiration and beginnings. Not in any way to say that the borrowing was usually unproblematic.

[Edited 11/9/20 12:59pm]

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

Prince was a funk n soul fan but he learned early on that the way to make big money was rock so he studied rock music so he could convincingly get that rock n roll paycheck

Living in Minneapolis, many people probably couldn't help but hear more rock and roll than they wished when/if they switched on the radio. Multiple people growing up with Prince described the radio situation.

But speaking not of Prince's growing up and what happened in the 80's...where did you learn the facts that, beyond the 80's, in the 90's, and 2000+, Prince did not like rock at all, and ONLY made rock songs to appeal to a white audience or to get related money?

rednblue said:

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

holy river, endorphin machine, he only wrote to make purple rain fans happy. the love we make too. also, one of us. the thing is prince so internalised the crossover mentalty that he didnt even know what he was doing. only true observers like derek understood that the music truest to the real prince, the black prince, was the music he made with black people or by himself, for black people. not the crossover stuff. he just did that for the money. as for those first two albums and prince saying it wasnt really him, that was just him trying to cater to white people again, so they would think purple rain was the real prince. see how deep it goes?

[Edited 11/9/20 12:39pm]

I am close with someone who has devoted herself to, among other things, making podcasts concerned with much of what you are speaking to.

I am not Black.

I couldn't agree more that Prince as a Black man should NOT be erased. I feel ridiculous even writing that because there's no way to write it that doesn't seem way too much like stating the obvious, and that sort of stuff that goes on...it's horribly destructive. I've said here before, that there are many things that people may have in commone with Prince, but I'd imagine that being black gives a person more of a chance for insight and understanding than anything else.

But your statements...that Prince didn't like rock, and he ONLY made rock songs to win a white audience. These are things that were not known to me. Could you provide references? I will also bring out the reference that I referred to above when I get home. As I noted earlier, the couple of references I've read regarding Prince's feelings about his first two albums may obviously not be correct, and that's a good part of why it's good to know what the references that people cite are.

I haven't read anything/heard any interviews, etc. telling me that Prince didn't like rock at all and only made rock songs to cross over. I am very open to being educated.

I do think I get the crossover ideas to some extent, but probably not the extent of the most sophisticated. I understand that Prince wanted access that would be denied him if categorized and marketed a certain way. I'm old enough to remember those days. I remember the "Black" categories on award shows, how MTV started like a prejudiced country club, the burning of disco records, etc., etc. I get that Prince didn't claim his mom was Italian for the heck of it.

Finally, just want to make sure (as everyone here is aware) that I don't leave out that we wouldn't have rock and roll if we didn't have Black musicians making music that was a big part of its inspiration and beginnings. Not in any way to say that the borrowing was usually unproblematic.

[Edited 11/9/20 12:59pm]

FWIW, according to my reference, Prince characterized the music that was the most straight-up Prince (the contrast with what the first two albums mostly were, though the albums did contain some of it, and he said those parts tended to be his favorites) as music that he made by himself.

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

Ok I was going to continue this but I'm losing energy now Ignore my last few replies While I def do think a lot of bad music is made by artists trying to crossover or hit the big time a lot of great music can and has also come from that and prince falls into the latter He resists easy crossover arguments as he obv was not only into rock music, he was good at it and understood it I love those first two albums btw and adore his earlier funk and soul stuff (dmsr or erotic city were funky AF) but prince was never interested in being a pure anything obv he did think of how to get a bigger whiter audience but I think he did it on his terms [Edited 11/9/20 13:27pm]

Sorry to get into tiring territory. I need to get off the computer now, too, so good timing.

Me too on the music. : )

Margot said:

Vannormal said:

-

Oh, I totally agree.

In fact, a creative process has nothing to do with age.

About what is important with 'instant success' - I don't remember who or where, but I read an article somewhere about the pros and cons of success in the lives of all kinds of artists (which turned out to be different even for men and women).

The sooner it comes, the greater the public's expectations and recognitions are.

It is often being received by a very young public first.

Success can be repeated. But it will always be weighed again and thus differently with what was achieved before.

For example, if success comes from innovation, it is often viewed by the public as a competitive victory over what is currently going on.

It is a kind of mass appreciation of the instant 'new', but not immediately on the quality. (Damn, I have to find that article again.)

But to answer the bold part of your answer; 'I'd put down to being a bit isolated and introverted' Isolated; I do not fully agree. Many isolated artists have made tremendous achievements in life, and the same is true for those who are the introvert. Sure Prince was a bit of both, but for me it was something else.

-

I believe that he worked so hard to make sure what he could do best, to hide any insecurities (or weaknesses if you like) and his inner complexes.

For example a self-righteous song like 'My Name Is Prince' ?!

That lyric is pretty boastful in many ways, even beyond the sense of humor, should it be the case.

I believe he wrote that at the time (when he was upon his second succesful wave) like as if this song was an answer to the new musical developments that occured.

It was obvious that he wasn't the game changer anymore.

We all know he had a very turbulent childhood with possible very divided parental love and shifting structures.

He's also this quintessential American Dream boy, a self-made young fellow, tremendously driven, with extraordinarily self tought and developed skills, his particular staunch belief in music making.

And in addition, what a character!

And the fact that he was so cute and goodlooking - it is a fact that those kind of people always have some advatages.

He had trouble believing in people, learning to trust them - he himself said that over and over.

From an early age he had too much freedom to do what he wanted.

Knowing that it is very difficult to make room for imposed or even collaborative creativity.
Especially after you have tasted that quickly acquired freedom?

I mean, that's quite a serious burden on the shoulders of a young twenties.

And on top of that, all that money and the possibility to make endless plans.

When he built Paisley Park, etc, Actually, PP didn't always run that well.

He had to tour a lot, play the hits, make money and keep his lifestyle up to standard.

Regularly firing his entourage, accounts, managers, lawyers, etc.

The man has accomplished an awful lot in his life, but just couldn't bear to listen to others.

Perhaps that's why after The Revolution he supposedly wanted to surround himself safely with only people who wouldn't get in his way.

But we often have the guesswork with this particularly complex purple fella.

That's what makes it so interesting, of course. (All in my humble opinon). -

-

[Edited 11/8/20 1:26am]

Enjoyed both of your posts.

I think there might be something about not being around enough equals; people he could have trusted and listened to. When he was a younger man, he collaborated with equals.

I can understand the need to develop into the boss, but it might have gone too far.

Many celebrities can count on spouses to keep it real.

Yes, I don’t think that he was a natural collaborator though, even as a young man. It’s what Bjork respectively said of Prince when discussing her collaboration with Arca (that doing everything alone in isolation can impoverish creativity in the long run). Most of the people that he worked with directly weren’t in a position to challenge him in that way, and I doubt that such a person would have lasted very long. Even when he worked with people of stature like Miles and George Clinton it was kind of indirect and distant (Alan Leeds has spoken of the fact that George wanted a more direct collaboration when he first signed to Paisley, but that Prince felt uneasy about directing him). His relationship with Clare Fischer was very hands-off as well.

Another good example is his film work. I actually think that he had a fair amount of charisma and promise on-screen. He probably could have worked with lots of interesting directors if he’d been willing to trust the genius of others and take direction (he was an awful film-maker ). Instead we got GB. Bowie wasn’t necessarily a great actor, but his work with people like Nicolas Roeg and David Lynch is successful because he wasn’t approaching these projects as vehicles for own ego. I'm not knocking Prince – my instincts are similar and he had a truly remarkable run of self-sufficient creativity, but hip-hop wasn’t even coolest thing going on by the time that Prince picked it up.

fen said:

Margot said:

Enjoyed both of your posts.

I think there might be something about not being around enough equals; people he could have trusted and listened to. When he was a younger man, he collaborated with equals.

I can understand the need to develop into the boss, but it might have gone too far.

Many celebrities can count on spouses to keep it real.

Yes, I don’t think that he was a natural collaborator though, even as a young man. It’s what Bjork respectively said of Prince when discussing her collaboration with Arca (that doing everything alone in isolation can impoverish creativity in the long run). Most of the people that he worked with directly weren’t in a position to challenge him in that way, and I doubt that such a person would have lasted very long. Even when he worked with people of stature like Miles and George Clinton it was kind of indirect and distant (Alan Leeds has spoken of the fact that George wanted a more direct collaboration when he first signed to Paisley, but that Prince felt uneasy about directing him). His relationship with Clare Fischer was very hands-off as well.

Another good example is his film work. I actually think that he had a fair amount of charisma and promise on-screen. He probably could have worked with lots of interesting directors if he’d been willing to trust the genius of others and take direction (he was an awful film-maker ). Instead we got GB. Bowie wasn’t necessarily a great actor, but his work with people like Nicolas Roeg and David Lynch is successful because he wasn’t approaching these projects as vehicles for own ego. I'm not knocking Prince – my instincts are similar and he had a truly remarkable run of self-sufficient creativity, but hip-hop wasn’t even coolest thing going on by the time that Prince picked it up.

Very insightful observations here.

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

Yes its hard to dispute that as soon as he got free of warners he went back to his rnb roots And created his best music since 1983 Albums like 3121 and musicology are better than parade and emancipation is better than sott as they arent so interested in getting that white mainstream dollar In the 90s prince saw black artists selling more than ever and saw he could finally do what he always wanted to The real reason he got down on his life in later years was thinking about how he sold himself out for so many years playing rock music Idk how you like 1999 though, a lot of that album shows him already selling out Same for dirty mind and controversy [Edited 11/9/20 13:00pm]

I think you already pointed out what made 1999 different. Those moments of funk like DMSR, Automatic, even that bass on Lady Cab Driver. I think 1999 was him blending everything. At that point in my life no other Black musician was creating anything that sounded like that. I've always been more drawn to the funk Prince. I think he did a lot of experimentation just to show the world that he could pull it off. Which is why he's one of a kind. No one could have as effortlessly pulled off moving between genres the way he did and mastering them. But he was always R&B/funk centered and I loved that direction that his career took before he left this world.

fen said:

Margot said:

Enjoyed both of your posts.

I think there might be something about not being around enough equals; people he could have trusted and listened to. When he was a younger man, he collaborated with equals.

I can understand the need to develop into the boss, but it might have gone too far.

Many celebrities can count on spouses to keep it real.

Yes, I don’t think that he was a natural collaborator though, even as a young man. It’s what Bjork respectively said of Prince when discussing her collaboration with Arca (that doing everything alone in isolation can impoverish creativity in the long run). Most of the people that he worked with directly weren’t in a position to challenge him in that way, and I doubt that such a person would have lasted very long. Even when he worked with people of stature like Miles and George Clinton it was kind of indirect and distant (Alan Leeds has spoken of the fact that George wanted a more direct collaboration when he first signed to Paisley, but that Prince felt uneasy about directing him). His relationship with Clare Fischer was very hands-off as well.

Another good example is his film work. I actually think that he had a fair amount of charisma and promise on-screen. He probably could have worked with lots of interesting directors if he’d been willing to trust the genius of others and take direction (he was an awful film-maker ). Instead we got GB. Bowie wasn’t necessarily a great actor, but his work with people like Nicolas Roeg and David Lynch is successful because he wasn’t approaching these projects as vehicles for own ego. I'm not knocking Prince – my instincts are similar and he had a truly remarkable run of self-sufficient creativity, but hip-hop wasn’t even coolest thing going on by the time that Prince picked it up.

-

Yeah Björk made a good point there.

Did you know Prince never met Clare Fisher ?

He said somewhere he never wanted to meet him, out of some respect or something like that iirc.

Sure Prince was a promissing actor and could've been even an even bettter one.

To be honest, I believe he really did a great job in Purple Rain.

Prince would never be able to work with a Roeg or Lynch or just imagine Nolan - totally different levels.

Just imagine the work with Burton; Grafitti Bridge could've been the weirdest bomb. lol

Bowie is cut from a total different piece of art. I dare not to compare them tbh (but let's try).

I love Bowie! He represented everything from avant-gard-ish through a (more) European approach of art and kept that pace of renewal.

I like to say that Prince was far more black than most people think he was.

Bowie on the other hand had in his basis a wider education in arts. He wasn't that concentrated on the skills.

Both were musical 'sponges', and soaked everything that crossed their paths.

Bowie was far more open to collaborations, he knew that would keep him fresh and curious.

Prince always seemed to struggle with competition (that wasn't there anymore),

and that constant strive to be succesful again and the infinite longing to be the hippest.

-

the diff between bowie and prince is that db was interested in 'art' as a whole (and prince wanted control all the time, which is why youd never get an album produced on him by anyone else, or a film directed by someone else... if he had let an outside producer work with him on rave like carlos santana had on supernatural, he would have had the hit he was so desperate for, but he wouldnt let it happen)

prince was just a music guy really

and not really much beyond the mainstream for that matter

which is why as he got older, he was still trying to write pop/catchy songs for the most part

the idea of writing songs that had no commerical aspirations was just alien to him

idk what you mean that he was more black than people thought, but i think he just went back into his safe house as he got older

in the slave documentary, michael bland characterises the early npg stuff as more like a 'throwback', though not entirely ofc

princes world was more insular as he got older, retreating to paisley, barely doing shows in mpls unless they were at pp, he decided he was going to be the torchbearer for funk, rather than try anything new. new stuff or risk taking prob scared him as he needed to be popular. for him, making music that wasnt popular, or didnt have a chance of becoming so, was anathema. he needed an audience. and a big one. he was not into being a niche artist. the experimental years of 85 and 86 and 87 were only a short period in his career. yeah i know he was risk taking before that too, but it was always within a pop framework. later on, he was more interested in doing establushed styles and genres. he didnt want to sound weird.

[Edited 11/10/20 3:50am]

[Edited 11/10/20 3:51am]

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

Derek880 said:

Later on, in my opinion, he DEFINITELY wrote better songs. The Emancipation album is full of great songs, and though some "fans" take issue with it, The Rainbow Children is an amazing piece of original work. Art Official Age was overlooked, but was loaded with good R&B work. Off the top of my head, I can name at least 10 songs in the 2000 era that were better than When Doves Cry. To be honest, (and this may offend some)...without the Purple Rain movie or the videos, the Purple Rain album would not have received anywhere near the media recognition. I could see some of his later work being responsible for him being a mega-star and blowing him up, but not Purple Rain. Funk and R&B was always a part of his life. I don't think it had anything to do with commercialization. The 80s was his commercialization/crossover period. Once he broke that barrier, he didn't really need to maintain The Revolution. Near the end, he surrounded himself with people that looked like him and that he could connect to on a more cultural level. I think he did that because he needed that. What's lost in so much of the hoopla of fans trying to re-create his life is that Prince was always a Black man. No matter who was in his band. Creating The Revolution was him simply playing the game with the hand that he was given. When he no longer had to play the game, he was free to develop what he wanted as his vision changed.

true, purple rain was just corny crossover pop BS (which he started with little red corvette). if im honest, the real compromises prince made werent in the 90s, they were in the 80s. the only pure and true records prince made were the first two albums. from 1980 to 1986, he was obv just doing anything to get the white dollar. he started to get back in touch with the real prince sound inside him after that period, but it was really in 1991 that he got there, when he reconnected with old friends and musicians, and got a black band at last. same with hendrix. his music was just compromised and stymied until he got rid of the experience and got the band of gypsies. really though, prince never liked rock music, he just got into it and learnt it as he knew its what white people would want to hear. D&P is actually the *real* prince, he just couldnt go there until 91. prince just made people think that he was into rock music, but really he just wanted to play rnb and funk only, but the white masses forced his hand. first it was the mainstream white audience he was trying to appeal to, then the hipster white crowds with ATWIAD and parade. all corny, cravenly commercial crossover records. only reason people dont see it this way is cos the industry and journalists have made it seem like rock/pop prince is better than R&B/funk prince.

[Edited 11/9/20 12:15pm]

-

Well, I do not completely agree.

I love your approach of it though, it's very interesting.

Maybe you'd like him to be all black... I don't know for sure, but it seems that's what you're pointing at.

Talking about white dolaar and all. Let me try to explain.

Because I feel that it's all about only your black aproach of Prince.

I said it before, Prince was more black than most people think, that's true.

But to state and divide everything between black (R'nB Funk) and white (Rock pop) is simply just too simple and thin. Yes the proof is in Prince's music, but more so in his attitude, looks and the will to become big.

There are far more shades of grey in between. Prince wanted to walk the whole colour sceem.

And it was obvious from the very beginning he wanted to do be able to be as free as possible.

To be as crossover as possible. He strived to be skilled on every style to the max.

He did not only wanted to play R'nB and Funk. Why on earth would he love Joni Mitchell so much ?

She's paler than white, and a damn good singer songwriter with loads of soul of all colours, a different 'soul', more 'heart', that's true.

The reason why he did not reunite The Revolution hs it's very clear reasons.

They were his best friends (to start with) when he was about to make it.

He could not go back, it was not his doing to look back.

Although he stayed in contact, even reflected on the reunion several times in his life.

Maybe even more than we could think of (and yes that's a presumption, so it's only my humble opinion). I think Prince's friendships after The Revolution became... different, to say the least.

As a (has been) star on the top of the game, you're just alone, and often lonely.

Diamonds and Pearls was just another pop ablum tbh, at least that's what I think of it.

Most songs on there are far more commercial and pop oriented then he did before.

Yeah sure he had an all black band, but they had to play the hits just like everyone elese in Prince's band had to do. Jus tlike they had basically very litle up to zero input in his recording process like all other bandmembers in general.

It's mostly about his lack of trust and competition. It's been said many times before by those who worked for him, and it makes sense.

Prince just used his bandmembers as sort of embellischments for his own.

For his new styles, ideas, concepts etc - and I don't mean that in a negative/derogatory/rediculatory way.

But again, i like your thinking and approach.

I hope we can agree to disagree,that's the richness of it, right?

-

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

I'll just say that if you prefer funky or rnb prince, then cool, that's your preference. But I wouldn't argue for its purity or superiority on grounds that it was the real prince or the least compromised. For someone who has exercised maximum control from day one, idk if you can really argue prince did anything he didnt want to. If he wanted to play straight up funk,he could have done. You can say that he was just playing by white society's rules, but look at Michael Jackson. He sold 40million of thriller and he did it sticking to rnb. Prince didnt WANT to do that.

I actually believe Prince liked Rock...not as much as Funk, but he liked it.

Michael Bland and Sonny did too. (They both talked about it in interviews...I was surprised)

• I perceived Purple Rain as a very Gospel-influenced. He sang it like a Gospel song.
• Just watched an interview with Lizzo by David Letterman and she talked about being with Prince @ Paisley while he was practicing for a show (Not sure which one, but in 2014/2015). She said he was playing Purple Rain on the piano and began weeping. That song had to mean something to him for it to elicit such a reponse.
• Again, what about his choice to form 3EG? He had nothing left to prove. I would think it was a way to play more rock-based music. One never knew with Prince, though.

[Edited 11/11/20 8:17am]

Vannormal said:

fen said:

Yes, I don’t think that he was a natural collaborator though, even as a young man. It’s what Bjork respectively said of Prince when discussing her collaboration with Arca (that doing everything alone in isolation can impoverish creativity in the long run). Most of the people that he worked with directly weren’t in a position to challenge him in that way, and I doubt that such a person would have lasted very long. Even when he worked with people of stature like Miles and George Clinton it was kind of indirect and distant (Alan Leeds has spoken of the fact that George wanted a more direct collaboration when he first signed to Paisley, but that Prince felt uneasy about directing him). His relationship with Clare Fischer was very hands-off as well.

Another good example is his film work. I actually think that he had a fair amount of charisma and promise on-screen. He probably could have worked with lots of interesting directors if he’d been willing to trust the genius of others and take direction (he was an awful film-maker ). Instead we got GB. Bowie wasn’t necessarily a great actor, but his work with people like Nicolas Roeg and David Lynch is successful because he wasn’t approaching these projects as vehicles for own ego. I'm not knocking Prince – my instincts are similar and he had a truly remarkable run of self-sufficient creativity, but hip-hop wasn’t even coolest thing going on by the time that Prince picked it up.

-

Yeah Björk made a good point there.

Did you know Prince never met Clare Fisher ?

He said somewhere he never wanted to meet him, out of some respect or something like that iirc.

Sure Prince was a promissing actor and could've been even an even bettter one.

To be honest, I believe he really did a great job in Purple Rain.

Prince would never be able to work with a Roeg or Lynch or just imagine Nolan - totally different levels.

Just imagine the work with Burton; Grafitti Bridge could've been the weirdest bomb. lol

Bowie is cut from a total different piece of art. I dare not to compare them tbh (but let's try).

I love Bowie! He represented everything from avant-gard-ish through a (more) European approach of art and kept that pace of renewal.

I like to say that Prince was far more black than most people think he was.

Bowie on the other hand had in his basis a wider education in arts. He wasn't that concentrated on the skills.

Both were musical 'sponges', and soaked everything that crossed their paths.

Bowie was far more open to collaborations, he knew that would keep him fresh and curious.

Prince always seemed to struggle with competition (that wasn't there anymore),

and that constant strive to be succesful again and the infinite longing to be the hippest.

-

Wonderful insights.

My impression of Bowie was a more detached, experimental performance artist. He never

touched me though I admired his work from a distance...similar to enjoying a piece of art, cerebral.

He was also able to walk away in his later years.

Prince was soulful, emotional and musical. He touched me much more deeply than Bowie.

He really was his music, composing and playing until his death. He had to do it.

Margot said:

Vannormal said:

-

Yeah Björk made a good point there.

Did you know Prince never met Clare Fisher ?

He said somewhere he never wanted to meet him, out of some respect or something like that iirc.

Sure Prince was a promissing actor and could've been even an even bettter one.

To be honest, I believe he really did a great job in Purple Rain.

Prince would never be able to work with a Roeg or Lynch or just imagine Nolan - totally different levels.

Just imagine the work with Burton; Grafitti Bridge could've been the weirdest bomb. lol

Bowie is cut from a total different piece of art. I dare not to compare them tbh (but let's try).

I love Bowie! He represented everything from avant-gard-ish through a (more) European approach of art and kept that pace of renewal.

I like to say that Prince was far more black than most people think he was.

Bowie on the other hand had in his basis a wider education in arts. He wasn't that concentrated on the skills.

Both were musical 'sponges', and soaked everything that crossed their paths.

Bowie was far more open to collaborations, he knew that would keep him fresh and curious.

Prince always seemed to struggle with competition (that wasn't there anymore),

and that constant strive to be succesful again and the infinite longing to be the hippest.

-

Wonderful insights.

My impression of Bowie was a more detached, experimental performance artist. He never

touched me though I admired his work from a distance...similar to enjoying a piece of art, cerebral.

He was also able to walk away in his later years.

Prince was soulful, emotional and musical. He touched me much more deeply than Bowie.

He really was his music, composing and playing until his death. He had to do it.

For me, responses to Bowie and Prince are very similar to what you describe.

Like others, I'm enjoying the conversation and insightful observations.

One of my references (connected to upthread comment re: Prince's earliest albums) was what I heard Prince say in an excerpt from the audiobook version of This Thing Called Life.

I know some think that it is wrong to listen to these recordings, but for those who are comfortable and have the audio version of Neal Karlen's book, I am referring to what Prince has to say about early albums in the excerpt that precedes Neal's reading of Chapter 9 ("High School"). Prince describes that prior to making his first records, he played "acoustic guitar constantly." He says that's what he thought of "when I would think of playing music."

Prince then says that he wrote "really long pieces of music. Like five verses. That was the shortest piece." People tried to talk him out of sticking so much to that. His first records didn't turn out to be quite like that. But before making those first records, he'd thought that's what he would do.

Also, in connection with the general conversation on this thread, the excerpt that precedes Chapter 8 ("Baller") may be of interest. Prince speaks briefly about what might motivate him to make some changes in what he's doing with his music/art.

As most know, these excerpts are Prince speaking in 1985.


https://www.audible.com/p...DF76AXK6ZA

[Edited 11/11/20 10:55am]

rednblue said:

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

holy river, endorphin machine, he only wrote to make purple rain fans happy. the love we make too. also, one of us. the thing is prince so internalised the crossover mentalty that he didnt even know what he was doing. only true observers like derek understood that the music truest to the real prince, the black prince, was the music he made with black people or by himself, for black people. not the crossover stuff. he just did that for the money. as for those first two albums and prince saying it wasnt really him, that was just him trying to cater to white people again, so they would think purple rain was the real prince. see how deep it goes?

[Edited 11/9/20 12:39pm]

I am close with someone who has devoted herself to, among other things, making podcasts concerned with much of what you are speaking to.

I am not Black.

I couldn't agree more that Prince as a Black man should NOT be erased. I feel ridiculous even writing that because there's no way to write it that doesn't seem way too much like stating the obvious, and that sort of stuff that goes on...it's horribly destructive. I've said here before, that there are many things that people may have in commone with Prince, but I'd imagine that being black gives a person more of a chance for insight and understanding than anything else.

But your statements...that Prince didn't like rock, and he ONLY made rock songs to win a white audience. These are things that were not known to me. Could you provide references? I will also bring out the reference that I referred to above when I get home. As I noted earlier, the couple of references I've read regarding Prince's feelings about his first two albums may obviously not be correct, and that's a good part of why it's good to know what the references that people cite are.

I haven't read anything/heard any interviews, etc. telling me that Prince didn't like rock at all and only made rock songs to cross over. I am very open to being educated.

I do think I get the crossover ideas to some extent, but probably not the extent of the most sophisticated. I understand that Prince wanted access that would be denied him if categorized and marketed a certain way. I'm old enough to remember those days. I remember the "Black" categories on award shows, how MTV started like a prejudiced country club, the burning of disco records, etc., etc. I get that Prince didn't claim his mom was Italian for the heck of it.

Finally, just want to make sure (as everyone here is aware) that I don't leave out that we wouldn't have rock and roll if we didn't have Black musicians making music that was a big part of its inspiration and beginnings. Not in any way to say that the borrowing was usually unproblematic.

[Edited 11/9/20 12:59pm]

There is no evidence. Andre wrote a great thing about the music that he and Prince used to listen to, and he said they were both obsessed with Grand Funk Railroad. There's so much evidence that Prince was not just into one kind of music.

The "crossover" discussion is important. As a white person who grew up in a very black/mutiracial environment in a very white Minnesota, I clung to Prince's 'black and whiteness'. It made total sense to me and was, to me, a liberating anti-racist statement in the realm of 'we can cross all boundaries and be whomever we want to be'. I was a devotee of racial messaging he was putting out "Black, white, Puerto Rican, EVERYBODY just a freak'n". It never occured to me when I was young that there would be a more cynical "crossover" appeal to the white children kind of thing going on. To me albums like Parade were statements of truth "Blackness is ALL of this". Also, that album and the single b-sides are funky as hell. So, who knows what the fuck people are talking about when they say it's not black.

Of course, no one gets to that level of superstardom without REALLY wanting it, and doing what needs to be done to get it. So, I've come to a place where I believe both things: Prince really wanted that white audience, and he also strived to tell the truth about who he was in his music. He also wanted his black audience. He wanted it all!

I do think the quality of his work fell off after they early 90s. He wasn't really pushing boundaries like he had. And, ironically maybe, I think his concerns became even more commercial. I think the quality of his later-on work reflects his later in life isolation. But Prince was Prince, and there's was always something interesting going on in his records, even if they didn't necessarily hit completely.

[Edited 11/12/20 21:07pm]

[Edited 11/12/20 21:09pm]