So this question sounds naive, however, I'm curious to know as to how songs from the vault got "leaked" in the days before digital recording/music formats. The only way I know songs get leaked now from artists is from people hacking into computers and/or shady people in artists camps releasing stuff online secretly. How was that possible in the age of CD's and tape? It seems like someone as intuitive as Prince would know about people making copies of his music from his SEALED VAULT in Paisley Park.

There was a time when all NPGMC members on the PP mailing list, including me... received an email asking folks with bootlegs to mail them to Paisley Park with no repercussions (any of you other ol skoolers remember this?) ....... Needless to say some folks did mail their bootlegs to PP

Prince gave cassettes to people(? allegedly).

[Edited 10/19/20 21:43pm]

Leaks came from the labels, studio employees, friends of Prince, friends of Prince's friends or people he hired, etc.

The story is Prince was careless and would hand out tapes to his inner circle or leave them in people's cars.

At the labels, you have a lot of assistants around privileged material, and there's room for abuse.

luv4u said:

There was a time when all NPGMC members on the PP mailing list, including me... received an email asking folks with bootlegs to mail them to Paisley Park with no repercussions (any of you other ol skoolers remember this?) ....... Needless to say some folks did mail their bootlegs to PP

I remember this, and a.m.p being up in arms at the time. I'd decided to send a couple of old boots to PP just to see if there was a response but, disappointingly, for some reason I never received the email.

a famous story was that Prince had his cars washed at one particular carwash. The people there would take the cassettes that were thrown in the back of the car on the floor and copy them while they were washing and detailing the car. They would then put the cassettes neatly in the car again and sell any new songs that they copied to bootleggers.

WhisperingDandelions said:

Prince gave cassettes to people(? allegedly).

[Edited 10/19/20 21:43pm]

But why not release the bootlegged material on an album and make money?

khill95 said:

WhisperingDandelions said:

Prince gave cassettes to people(? allegedly).

[Edited 10/19/20 21:43pm]

But why not release the bootlegged material on an album and make money?

Who Prince? He was always testing out songs and mixes and getting reactions from friends, bandmates. And giving cassettes to protégés. He had songs no top of songs.

He never intentionally leaked anything, not even the Black Album, although I'm sure he was pleasantly surprised when it got popular.

In fact in the 90's he shut down record store sections that had bootlegs, and of course in the 2000's shut down websites selling bootlegs, didn't he?

His only official "bootleg" type releases where the Crystal Ball set (clearly labeled "Bootleg" on the CD as a wink), and then some club stuff like the Beautiful Experience VHS of the TV special. That was bootleg quality.

ufoclub said:

khill95 said:

But why not release the bootlegged material on an album and make money?

Who Prince? He was always testing out songs and mixes and getting reactions from friends, bandmates. And giving cassettes to protégés. He had songs no top of songs.

He never intentionally leaked anything, not even the Black Album, although I'm sure he was pleasantly surprised when it got popular.

In fact in the 90's he shut down record store sections that had bootlegs, and of course in the 2000's shut down websites selling bootlegs, didn't he?

His only official "bootleg" type releases where the Crystal Ball set (clearly labeled "Bootleg" on the CD as a wink), and then some club stuff like the Beautiful Experience VHS of the TV special. That was bootleg quality.

And there was the NYC live cassette with Jam of the Year and Face Down. That stated "4th Generation Bootleg, but it's All Good!!" on it, and it sounded like it! It such a great performance, but I was so disappointed by the sound quality.

thefunkydrummer said:

There are a lot of different stories floating around. And I'd actually love to hear more from folks with more insight than I have. One story I heard was that Bobby Z leaked a bunch of shit, including the album by The Rebels, and that Per Nilsen was involved in this.

If we're putting people on blast, I think you can do this with everyone associated with him, and it's easier to name the ones who definitely didn't. Some people waited and auctioned off the tapes they had closer to 2016, to be fair.

I'd love to see it documented, like Bobby Z. leaked this, Susannah gave away this and sold this, Leeds shared that... and I don't think it tarnishes them at this point, but nobody will step forward while they all might have some nugget left in their collections.

And the real bootlegging question is, who then gave the tape to the person they knew was pressing CD's overseas, or that was running a vinyl operation and distributing through NYC? And who kept feeding them with new material? Bobby sharing a tape with Nilsen is one thing, and Nilsen sharing it with fans until it was circulating everywhere is one thing...but the person who was purposely handing off high quality copies to known bootleggers knowing it would be on a store shelf? Kind of a problem.

leecaldon said:

ufoclub said:

Who Prince? He was always testing out songs and mixes and getting reactions from friends, bandmates. And giving cassettes to protégés. He had songs no top of songs.

He never intentionally leaked anything, not even the Black Album, although I'm sure he was pleasantly surprised when it got popular.

In fact in the 90's he shut down record store sections that had bootlegs, and of course in the 2000's shut down websites selling bootlegs, didn't he?

His only official "bootleg" type releases where the Crystal Ball set (clearly labeled "Bootleg" on the CD as a wink), and then some club stuff like the Beautiful Experience VHS of the TV special. That was bootleg quality.

And there was the NYC live cassette with Jam of the Year and Face Down. That stated "4th Generation Bootleg, but it's All Good!!" on it, and it sounded like it! It such a great performance, but I was so disappointed by the sound quality.

Oh yeah, I remember hearing the audio of that on the web back in the alt.music.prince daze. Abovr I meant to type "He had songs on top of songs."

luv4u said:

AvocadosMax said:

Short answer: Cassettes But my theory is that there’s at least one or two tracks he leaked himself... to either figure out bootleggers tactics or add to his legendary, mythical status

There is no evidence to support this. Of course it's impossible to prove it's wrong either, but there simply is zero evidence of Prince purposedly leaking something with the intention of it ending-up on a bootleg.

Certainly, there must have been a few years when he knew that his carelessness was going to facilitate more bootlegs surfacing. On the other hand, it's interesting to observe that the well progressively went dry as years went by. Prince made sure no more outtakes would ever surface after 1995, with a remarkable efficiency. But if you look at the nature of the outtakes that leaked and when they were recorded, it's also interesting to see that at the same time bootlegs began to multiply, Prince appears to have begun to be more careful. Most of the outtakes recorded after 1988 that leaked were songs that Prince couldn't avoid sharing with either other artists or labels, but there were much fewer songs he had no reason to give away (while the material recorded before 1989 that leaked is completely random and much more invasive of P's intimacy in the end).

.

On a sidenote, I think studio bootlegs hurt him as much as they served him. On one hand of course the boots help create his legendary status as a prolific, extremely talented songwriter. On the other hand, it kind of created a lot of problems with fans who were constantly complaining about such or such unreleased version being better than the released one, etc. Bootlegs contributed to some extent to fans constantly questioning Prince's editorial decisions from 1990 onwards. Same with live shows vs. official live releases.

.

As for naming names and all, I'd like to remind everyone that the Estate isn't friendly to people allegedly selling or leaking stuff to bootleggers. Whether the stories are true or not, I don't think we're doing P's former associates a great favor by publicly "accusing" them of leaking or selling material owned by the Estate. There may be legal consequences, it's not cool.

Duane Nelson

ufoclub said:

khill95 said:

But why not release the bootlegged material on an album and make money?

Who Prince? He was always testing out songs and mixes and getting reactions from friends, bandmates. And giving cassettes to protégés. He had songs no top of songs.

He never intentionally leaked anything, not even the Black Album, although I'm sure he was pleasantly surprised when it got popular.

In fact in the 90's he shut down record store sections that had bootlegs, and of course in the 2000's shut down websites selling bootlegs, didn't he?

His only official "bootleg" type releases where the Crystal Ball set (clearly labeled "Bootleg" on the CD as a wink), and then some club stuff like the Beautiful Experience VHS of the TV special. That was bootleg quality.

Yeah I have to understand this is Prince. A lot of things he did didn't make sense. Like not releasing the triple album. After hearing the tracks from the SOTT box set, It easily would've blown everything else from that year out of the water. IMO better than Joshua Tree, better than Bad, better than Faith.

lust said:

luv4u said:

There was a time when all NPGMC members on the PP mailing list, including me... received an email asking folks with bootlegs to mail them to Paisley Park with no repercussions (any of you other ol skoolers remember this?) ....... Needless to say some folks did mail their bootlegs to PP

If I didn’t receive my Lotusflower T shirt then I I didn’t receive that email either. Must check my spam.

I'm still waiting on mine...

lust said:

luv4u said:

There was a time when all NPGMC members on the PP mailing list, including me... received an email asking folks with bootlegs to mail them to Paisley Park with no repercussions (any of you other ol skoolers remember this?) ....... Needless to say some folks did mail their bootlegs to PP

If I didn’t receive my Lotusflower T shirt then I I didn’t receive that email either. Must check my spam.

What?? This is waaay before Lotusflow3r/Tshirt ever happened

thefunkydrummer said:

There are a lot of different stories floating around. And I'd actually love to hear more from folks with more insight than I have. One story I heard was that Bobby Z leaked a bunch of shit, including the album by The Rebels, and that Per Nilsen was involved in this.

That´s what I heard when I bought the City Lights/Studio Nights bootleg box in the mid 90s. The set was often called "The Bobby Z tapes" among fans but to this day I am not so sure if Bobby Z was really behind that leak.