dream factory, camille, crystal ball, all these albums were ideas, possibilities, big maybes, with lots of great songs, but they were never finished albums, ready to go.

camille made it to test pressing stage, which suggests that it was more complete than the others (you could make a case that this should have been the album he released, then SOTT a while later without the camille tracks, but people seem more obsessed with DF and CB), but either way, there was something not good enough with it in princes mind, which is why he scrapped it to use the tracks for CB/SOTT/TBA

CB, this could very well have been an album released, but talks with the label meant it wasnt to be. so in princes dreams, this might have been exactly what he wanted, but it sounded like he understood the labels point when lenny waronker talked about it in the SOTT podcast, ergo, it was an idea, not a finished album.

prince was a megalomaniac control freak, but its fair to say he has probably absorbed more from others in the course of his career than he/many fans would be enthusiastic to admit.

what i am saying, is that in the course of every artists career, there will be ideas that were mooted, but did not come to fruition. sometimes these will be sad events where the label thwarted a great project in favour of an inferior one, but in this case, it is hard to admit that SOTT is just the superior album.

but in this case, i never got the sense from prince that DF or CB were albums he wished he put out. he might have wished warners let him put a triple album out, but whether he really thought CB was better than SOTT, i dont think he ever said anything to that effect. it seemed to just be something that came up years later, when there were other things he wasnt happy with warners about (and if emancipation taught us anything, its that triple albums are not all they are cracked up to be)

it is worth considering then, that as prince himself never seemed to say that DF or CB were actually the superior albums, that he never thought either of these albums were quite what he hoped when sequencing them (the sequences were probably just so he could demo the albums at home to see if it worked)

it seems like he just had so many songs, he couldnt contemplate any longer quite what to do with them in a form that would be coherent, which is why he kept trying over and over to find an album that worked.

and in the end, he did.

it was SOTT.

everything else was just ideas being thrown around. its fun to make playlists to imagine, but prince had many tracklistings for many projects he thought of. but ideas do not mean they were finished ones.

[Edited 10/2/20 13:45pm]

[Edited 10/2/20 13:46pm]

that its of great quality is not the debate.

Camille was finished.

He likely backed off it because of the concept album aspect. Or the label.

Doesn't sound like he had dozens of records in the can just like it, sequenced and all ready to go though.

Of the 2 other potentials we know about, they're not very cohesive, but since they are the ones that were known, why shouldn't people regard those as albums?

The Estate itself has said we now have complete track listings for them and can sequence them ourselves. I'm not taking issue with people who do.

It really depends on your definition of what a “finished” album is.

As far as I can see, both Camille and the Black album were just as complete as each other. Both albums were assembled, mastered, pressed, given catalogue numbers, and Prince chose to abandon them both. The only difference being that he abandoned Black after the production run.

Crystal Ball was assembled and mastered. Prince certainly considered it to be finished at the point of submission.

There is a question mark over Dream Factory. I’ve yet to read the SOTT:SD book as of yet, but as far as I’m aware we do not know for certain if Prince considered the last known configuration to be the finished article. We now know that the first two configurations (April and June), were never considered for release at any point as Susan Roger’s claims that Wonderful Day was only ever included as a placeholder. Come July it was substituted by Train, so it’s possible that Prince was satisfied with Dream Factory by that point, maybe?

In my eyes Camille, Crystal Ball, Sign and Black are all finished albums. Dream Factory is up for debate, although I personally love it as it was.

Edit for line breaks

[Edited 10/2/20 15:48pm]

VaultCurator said:

There is a question mark over Dream Factory.

.

DF was mastered in June, but Prince then continued working on it.

I get what OP is saying. People have documented sequences and notes so it's often framed like, "this was going to happen!"

Buuuut look at how many NPG Records/NPGMC projects were officially announced and went no where, and that's when he had full control over what was/wasn't released was/wasn't announced. "Mastered"... "Submitted to label." K, they still weren't released.

[Edited 10/2/20 17:22pm]

WhisperingDandelions said:

I get what OP is saying. People have documented sequences and notes so it's often framed like, "this was going to happen!"

Buuuut look at how many NPG Records/NPGMC projects were officially announced and went no where, and that's when he had full control over what was/wasn't released was/wasn't announced. "Mastered"... "Submitted to label." K, they still weren't released.

[Edited 10/2/20 17:22pm]

True, but does an album need to be released to be finished?

VaultCurator said:

WhisperingDandelions said:

I get what OP is saying. People have documented sequences and notes so it's often framed like, "this was going to happen!"

Buuuut look at how many NPG Records/NPGMC projects were officially announced and went no where, and that's when he had full control over what was/wasn't released was/wasn't announced. "Mastered"... "Submitted to label." K, they still weren't released.

[Edited 10/2/20 17:22pm]

True, but does an album need to be released to be finished?

In Princeland I think it does, particularly when the fanbase sometimes gets a little too consumed with like July configuration that, August configuration that. "Will superdeluxe include both August 8 and August 16 configurations?? Well Come and Gold must be combined superdeluxe because June 6th final configuration post Glam Slam Ulysses" blah blah.

Sometimes it's like... dudes... the album was the final configuration, the rest were never albums, just configurations, like they're listed as.

WhisperingDandelions said:

databank said:

CB would have been released as such if WB had said yes. The others P changed his mind. But CB was a finished record he wanted to release. As for DF3 I read several times that it wasn't meant to be final.

yeah but he didn't, the reasons why are kind of inconsequential at a certain point historically... He could've thrown a public fit in '87 five years ahead of schedule if it was that important to him. It's like when you talk about movies, "Well the studio made the director make those cuts." and.... yeah.. then that became the movie. Once history is written that's the history, the rest is a never ending game of what if.

databank said:

WhisperingDandelions said:

In Princeland I think it does, particularly when the fanbase sometimes gets a little too consumed with like July configuration that, August configuration that. "Will superdeluxe include both August 8 and August 16 configurations?? Well Come and Gold must be combined superdeluxe because June 6th final configuration post Glam Slam Ulysses" blah blah.

Sometimes it's like... dudes... the album was the final configuration, the rest were never albums, just configurations, like they're listed as.

Yeah, that don't mean we can't enjoy having them.

of course!

OP is just saying (I think) keep in mind it's not the concrete "album" "this is the album he intended" definitive written in stone a lot of people like to frame it as. It's kooky "what if?" enjoyment, not restoring Prince's intentions like you took a Delorean back and fixed the CB/DF/Camille timeline.

[Edited 10/2/20 17:46pm]

WhisperingDandelions said:

LoveGalore said:

WhisperingDandelions said:

yeah but he didn't, the reasons why are kind of inconsequential at a certain point historically... He could've thrown a public fit in '87 five years ahead of schedule if it was that important to him. It's like when you talk about movies, "Well the studio made the director make those cuts." and.... yeah.. then that became the movie. Once history is written that's the history, the rest is a never ending game of what if.

That really makes no sense. Prince submitted an album for release. It was finished in his mind. It was rejected by the label. That isn't a what if. It's a what is.

What is is SIgn O the Times was released on February 18, 1987 as his 9th studio album and follow-up to 1986's Parade...

Any other projects conceived around similar timespans were scrapped... for whatever reasons. Any other information is all interesting tidbits, sure, and from that perspective I would argue the quoted tidbit, "finished in his mind".... Sounds like it wasn't quite "finished" in his mind since he didn't say CB or bust, he took their "rejection" and reconfigured everything.... SOTT was "finished". If he took his (Crystal) Ball and went home it would be a different story, but he didn't, and it isn't.

[Edited 10/2/20 17:56pm]

WhisperingDandelions said:

LoveGalore said:

WhisperingDandelions said:

What is is SIgn O the Times was released on February 18, 1987 as his 9th studio album and follow-up to 1986's Parade...

Any other projects conceived around similar timespans were scrapped... for whatever reasons. Any other information is all interesting tidbits, sure, and from that perspective I would argue the quoted tidbit, "finished in his mind".... Sounds like it wasn't quite "finished" in his mind since he didn't say CB or bust, he took their "rejection" and reconfigured everything.... SOTT was "finished". If he took his (Crystal) Ball and went home it would be a different story, but he didn't, and it isn't.

[Edited 10/2/20 17:56pm]

?? What is is that he submitted it for release and it was rejected. It was finished in his mind. The label rejected it and told him to pare it down. It was finished in his mind. And he pared it down. Because the label rejected it. And would not release it as is. There is no "CB or bust." He was signed to a multimillion dollar contract. What is "CB or bust"? That he'd break his contract and never release music again? Wtf

He wasn't signed to a multimillion (actually significantly larger and longer) dollar contract in '93 with the "Slave" stuff?
.

Do you get into all this "finished in his mind" nuance/minutia when the labels asked him to add another hit like in the "Cream" D&P thread? "Cream" version not valid, OG Cream-less configuration the true "finished" Prince intended version?

[Edited 10/2/20 18:09pm]

WhisperingDandelions said:

LoveGalore said:

WhisperingDandelions said:

He wasn't signed to a multimillion (actually significantly larger and longer) dollar contract in '93 with the "Slave" stuff?
.

Do you get into all this "finished in his mind" nuance/minutia when the labels asked him to add another hit like in the "Cream" D&P thread? "Cream" version not valid, OG Cream-less configuration the true "finished" Prince intended version?

[Edited 10/2/20 18:09pm]

Well, no. I didn't hop into the D&P thread about finished in his mind. Because neither of those stories add up. And Prince's relationship with WB in 1986 was entirely different than it was in 1993. Or 1992. Or 1991. Now what?

I don't know, every quote response you seem to acknowledge exactly what I'm arguing in the quote you're responding to?

.

You concede he adapted his framework of "finished project" to what the label wanted in 87... and made the legimitately finished project.

.

You concede his relationship with the label fluctuated over time so '87 wasn't '93 big bad WB stifling Prince's creative vision because he actually went with what they suggested and did not think his "finished in his mind" version was the artistic hill be-all-end-all he felt a mere 5 years later. They were working in tandem and not opposition.... you agreed the relationship was different in different years, if that's the case then it's not oh it was finished until evil label came in... because if he felt that way, well, look at how he made it known when he did feel that way.

.

I feel like you just hopped in and now don't even know what you're arguing/advocating.

.

OP: Only finished albums in 87 were SOTT and TBA. Disagree? You disagree?

WhisperingDandelions said:

LoveGalore said:

CB was finished and submitted to the label in 1986. Madhouse was completed in 1987. How many other names do you post under?

P'zackly!

Most of Lovesexy was recorded before the end of 1987, too. " No", "Positivity," "Alphabet St., "Glam Slam," "Anna Stesia." All in 1987. (Including an early concept version of the title track.)

Princevault says that the first sequencing of Lovesexy was by the end of January 1988, so not a slow period into the new year.

Madhouse 8 and 16 were both recorded and released in 1987.

Prince also put together and sequenced Jill Jones, which means she probably recorded her vocals that year, too.

Camille had a pressing.

Crystal Ball had a pressing and was submitted (ergo Lenny at WB telling Prince to whittle it down to two disks aka SOTT).

if you guys want to quibble over dates, thats fine. i can edit my post to make it 86-87.

also, i am not talking about madhouse or any side projects, im talking about princes own solo work.

but the point is, that the interaction between a label and an artist is never so clear that you can say, the artist is always right, the label is always wrong.

as another poster pointed out, when making D&P, aside from cream, prince was also told by the label on the friday (IIRC) that they did not hear a hit, then on the monday, he came back with gett off for them. was this label interference? was the true D&P album one that did not include gett off? should we consider that album without that song? (arguably princes greatest 90s single). perhaps that gett off-less version of D&P is the only real version of the album. artists are often never finished with an album, or a project (eg look at francis ford coppola still tinkering with his films decades after they were made, or the multiple versions of blade runner out there).

you can look at DF, CB or camille (and i actually think camille is a great album in its own right, one that should have been released, and i love the idea of a huge triple album like CB being released in 87) as works in progress, much in the way some films start off as short films before they are developed on to make feature length films. interesting works in progress, yes, cool alternative what-if playlist fantasies, but whether they were really what prince wanted to release, is another matter (purple rain also had several earlier configurations - are we to think those earlier versions were the 'real' ones?). albums always get pressings, or tapes made up, or acetates, as they are being put together. its like a print out of a document you are working on or drafting. doesnt mean its done.

usually, with artists, its in interviews that the myths of these unreleased albums become bigger, as they say such and such project is what they wanted to release but werent able to. in this case, prince has never, to my knowledge, said such a thing (happy for someone to pull out a quote to prove me wrong). which would make you think actually, maybe he wasnt that into these configurations as much as we might like to think.

so if you want to think of them as great albums that could have been, cool, but dont think that its necessarily what prince wanted.

[Edited 10/3/20 3:02am]

[Edited 10/3/20 3:02am]

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

LoveGalore said:

CB was finished and submitted to the label in 1986. Madhouse was completed in 1987. How many other names do you post under?

only other name I also post under is LoveGalore.

LoveGalore said:

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

if you guys want to quibble over dates, thats fine. i can edit my post to make it 86-87.

also, i am not talking about madhouse or any side projects, im talking about princes own solo work.

but the point is, that the interaction between a label and an artist is never so clear that you can say, the artist is always right, the label is always wrong.

as another poster pointed out, when making D&P, aside from cream, prince was also told by the label on the friday (IIRC) that they did not hear a hit, then on the monday, he came back with gett off for them. was this label interference? was the true D&P album one that did not include gett off? should we consider that album without that song? (arguably princes greatest 90s single). perhaps that gett off-less version of D&P is the only real version of the album. artists are often never finished with an album, or a project (eg look at francis ford coppola still tinkering with his films decades after they were made, or the multiple versions of blade runner out there).

you can look at DF, CB or camille (and i actually think camille is a great album in its own right, one that should have been released, and i love the idea of a huge triple album like CB being released in 87) as works in progress, much in the way some films start off as short films before they are developed on to make feature length films. interesting works in progress, yes, cool alternative what-if playlist fantasies, but whether they were really what prince wanted to release, is another matter (purple rain also had several earlier configurations - are we to think those earlier versions were the 'real' ones?). albums always get pressings, or tapes made up, or acetates, as they are being put together. its like a print out of a document you are working on or drafting. doesnt mean its done.

usually, with artists, its in interviews that the myths of these unreleased albums become bigger, as they say such and such project is what they wanted to release but werent able to. in this case, prince has never, to my knowledge, said such a thing (happy for someone to pull out a quote to prove me wrong). which would make you think actually, maybe he wasnt that into these configurations as much as we might like to think.

so if you want to think of them as great albums that could have been, cool, but dont think that its necessarily what prince wanted.

[Edited 10/3/20 3:02am]

[Edited 10/3/20 3:02am]

Brother, if ur gonna drape these hot takes all over the forum can you manage a FUCKING line break here and there? Btw every Madhouse album is more of a solo album that Sign O the Times. [Edited 10/3/20 4:21am]

dude, i tried but it didnt do it for some reason. dont curse at me though, this is a prince-post-TRC zone. thank you.

i dont want to discuss madhouse. those albums are only worthwhile for a few horn charts that prince could insert during live performances. and the women on the album covers. and the single covers. i need to see if there are any videos featuring them actually.

Why are we even debating about this anyway?

databank said:

Why are we even debating about this anyway?

Exactly. It's like saying, "the only thing Prince finished in 1982 was 1999. AND?!

I personally care very little about listening to the unreleased material sequenced as they were on abandoned albums. Every artist likely plays around with different tracklistings and omits certain songs and inserts others ad nauseam until they're satisfied with the finished product. I've been a Prince fan for 25 years and never once listened to the Camille album, but I know every track on it like the back of my hand. I think I had the original sequence of Dream Factory on my iPod once, but hardly listened to it. So long as I have the music, I'm good.

[Edited 10/5/20 11:29am]

MattyJam said: