theplejades said:

The instrumental version of Sign of the times would have been nice. Instead they included the edited version of the song which I find kind of unnecessary.

What you find is irrelevant: they included the single edits (albeit not the Adore edit). Y'all have to stop assuming your wishes and desire are some kind of universal truth, there are nearly 8 billions of us on Earth

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As for the instrumental version, it'd indeed have been cool but I guess it's tangled in the same rights problems as the rest of the material used for the movie?

Im my mind, any song recorded after a finalized album was submitted to WB, should be included in the *following* album's era/SDE. Not when the prior album is released... but when Prince let go of it and started doing his "next thing".

theplejades said:

databank said:

SchlomoThaHomo said:

A clean Wally. Huge disappointment to release it that way with no explanation. He explained away Bold Generation from being sourced from cassette, which actually sounds pretty good, and then releases a garbled Wally and says nothing? The lossy sources for other tracks on the set should also be explained. No regular remastered Power Fantastic? That’s just wrong. It’s cool to have the first run through but not without the final version. That’s like releasing the first run through of How Come U Don’t Call Me without the final version. Unforgivable. The ‘98 Crystal Ball songs from this era. Yea yea rights issues but still. Can’t Stop-Girl O’ My-We Can Funk. Databank. I find it interesting that in other interviews (for 1999 SDE) Howe goes on about the painstaking process of figuring out Prince’s final versions of songs, and releasing those, but this time around touts the fact that they included a minute extra of When The Dawn that Prince had removed, and the extra lines and different ending on Rebirth Of The Flesh that Prince had also removed. Surely the edited versions were the final versions in these cases, correct? It seems his ethical standards aren’t quite consistent across projects.

There are obviously no rights issues with the alternate mixes of the CB98 tracks. Not including them was a curator's decision, not a matter of rights.

You don't know that. Of the 8 SOTT era songs on CB, only 2 were represented on the box set. A severe edit, and a completely different version. For as intentional Howe has been about mentioning the Dream Factory, Crystal Ball, and Camille configurations, it wouldn't make sense for them not to be included. I think the rights issues make more sense than it being a curator's decision.

As for Power Fantastic (as well as the 1993 edit of Adore for that matter) I'd assume the idea is that since they were released in 1993, they belong with either or Come (since there was no 1993 album per se). In a way both edits were made in 1993, so they do not technically belong on a SOTT era release, and including the final mix of PF with the original intro (as made by P in 86) probably seemed redundant, it was either, or. In a similar fashion, not including Good Love 88 and Feel U Up is somewhat baffling as well, but Michael Howe's reasoning was obviously that GL belongs with Lovesexy and that FUU belongs with Batman.

It would make absolutely no sense for Power Fantastic to be included on any 90s re-release unless there is a Hits and B-sides remaster in the pipeline. The song was included as a bonus track on a compilation, not an official album. If you made that argument for the GB songs I could understand, as that gets a bit more tricky. since that was an official album that was more of a compilation.

And how is it obvious that Howe thinks Good Love should be on Lovesexy? Doesn't it make more sense that it's because WB doesn't have the rights to Good Love anymore?

GiggityGoo said:

i would like for more transparency from the estate please and thank you

I agree with this.

GiggityGoo said:

Im my mind, any song recorded after a finalized album was submitted to WB, should be included in the *following* album's era/SDE. Not when the prior album is released... but when Prince let go of it and started doing his "next thing".

ok B-sides exempted.

LoveGalore said:

GiggityGoo said:

Im my mind, any song recorded after a finalized album was submitted to WB, should be included in the *following* album's era/SDE. Not when the prior album is released... but when Prince let go of it and started doing his "next thing".

So, you'd put Hello on Parade SDE and Irresistible Bitch on PR? Hmm.

SchlomoThaHomo said:

databank said:

You don't know that. Of the 8 SOTT era songs on CB, only 2 were represented on the box set. A severe edit, and a completely different version. For as intentional Howe has been about mentioning the Dream Factory, Crystal Ball, and Camille configurations, it wouldn't make sense for them not to be included. I think the rights issues make more sense than it being a curator's decision.

You need to be reasonable. If an edit of a song in an exactly similar form (CB) and an alternate mix based on the same recording (Crucial) do not constitute a problem, I fail to see how a different mix of another track would. Besides, past experience of the Estate releasing alternate mixes of The Dance Electric and Love... Thy Will Be Done without getting a shitstorm from Sony shows that such things aren't at stake here. My reasoning does not call for additional entities, yours does: https://en.wikipedia.org/...%27s_razor

As for Power Fantastic (as well as the 1993 edit of Adore for that matter) I'd assume the idea is that since they were released in 1993, they belong with either or Come (since there was no 1993 album per se). In a way both edits were made in 1993, so they do not technically belong on a SOTT era release, and including the final mix of PF with the original intro (as made by P in 86) probably seemed redundant, it was either, or. In a similar fashion, not including Good Love 88 and Feel U Up is somewhat baffling as well, but Michael Howe's reasoning was obviously that GL belongs with Lovesexy and that FUU belongs with Batman.

It would make absolutely no sense for Power Fantastic to be included on any 90s re-release unless there is a Hits and B-sides remaster in the pipeline. The song was included as a bonus track on a compilation, not an official album. If you made that argument for the GB songs I could understand, as that gets a bit more tricky. since that was an official album that was more of a compilation.

I'm not saying it would make sense. Just that it seems to be the rationale at work there. Besides, putting an edit made in 1993 on a 86-87 connection would also make little sense, because these edits did not exist in 1987. So in the end these tracks are in the exact same situation as b-sides: if they're going to be assigned to any project, they might as well be assigned to a contemporary project. In the end these poor edits are 2 lost orphans, they neither really belong here nor there

And how is it obvious that Howe thinks Good Love should be on Lovesexy? Doesn't it make more sense that it's because WB doesn't have the rights to Good Love anymore?

Well, for one thing because we have no reason to assume that WB doesn't have the rights to the song anymore. I mean it's possible that because it was an OST track the rights would have reverted to Prince earlier than the rest, but I doubt it. And if so, then who has the rights? The Estate. So WB has access to it. As for the Lovesexy rationale, well, it'd be the same as the 4TTIYE rationale (it should have been on PR Deluxe, yet wasn't).

databank said:

SchlomoThaHomo said:

4TTIYE was released 2 weeks before ATWIAD, recorded in Feb 85. Why in the world would that be on PR Deluxe?? It's not a b-side, the sound is entirely different.

LoveGalore said:

databank said:

4TTIYE was released 2 weeks before ATWIAD, recorded in Feb 85. Why in the world would that be on PR Deluxe?? It's not a b-side, the sound is entirely different.

1/ Good Love was released a mere 5 weeks before Lovesexy. Where do you draw the line?

2/ The sound is hardly entirely different. No different than the sound of Irresistible Bitch is from 1999. But this isn't the point really, it was released during what could be dubbed the "PR era". Now maybe Michael Howe made an editorial decision that it belonged with ATWIAD, and maybe he decided Good Love belonged with Lovesexy (which kind of was always the rationale among fans anyway, particularly before we were told that it was a SOTT outtake). Now I'm not in Howe's mind. All I'm sayin' is that in the end the only possible explaination there is that it's a decision he made.

databank said:

You need to be reasonable. If an edit of a song in an exactly similar form (CB) and an alternate mix based on the same recording (Crucial) do not constitute a problem, I fail to see how a different mix of another track would. Besides, past experience of the Estate releasing alternate mixes of The Dance Electric and Love... Thy Will Be Done without getting a shitstorm from Sony shows that such things aren't at stake here. My reasoning does not call for additional entities, yours does: https://en.wikipedia.org/...%27s_razor

What does Sony have to do with Prince's versions of The Dance Electric and Love... Thy Will Be Done? They were recorded when Prince was signed to WB, and were subsequently released by WB. These songs have nothing to do with Sony. Sony does currently own the rights to Crystal Ball '98, so for WB to release anything from it, they would need permission from Sony.

databank said:

I'm not saying it would make sense. Just that it seems to be the rationale at work there

Based on what?

databank said:

Well, for one thing because we have no reason to assume that WB doesn't have the rights to the song anymore. I mean it's possible that because it was an OST track the rights would have reverted to Prince earlier than the rest, but I doubt it. And if so, then who has the rights? The Estate. So WB has access to it. As for the Lovesexy rationale, well, it'd be the same as the 4TTIYE rationale (it should have been on PR Deluxe, yet wasn't).

We do have a reason to believe WB no longer owns the rights to the song, because it was released on an album that is now owned by Sony. As for the PR deluxe, there were a lot of things missing from that set. You can't assume the song was omitted because the curator didn't think it belonged to that era. We know nothing about how it was compiled.

fight fight fight fight

databank said:

LoveGalore said:

Michael Howe said that they left 1/3 of the appropriate tracks off. So that means, what, 20 other songs?

The quote is: "We sent hundreds of tracks for Bernie Grundman to master, and we kind of whittled it down from there. It was a tremendously forensic undertaking. We had to put about a third aside."

I was very excited at first thinking wow ok so there's more stuff already mixes and mastered and ready for release at a later date.

3x15=45.

Then the math don't add-up: how does 60 songs become "hundreds of songs"?

Is Mr. Howe making fun of us again?

-

''tracks!''

Hundreds of tracks,

that could be live trax from various shows as well.

Take five shows of that tour and the package we have and you have ''hundreds'' for instance.

Let alone all the unreleased, (re-)recorded, versions, alternates, etc of thenknown songs...

-

lustmealways said:

fight fight fight fight

We're not fighting, we're having a conversation.

databank said:

We're not fighting, we're having a conversation.

all good fights start out as a simple conversation.

next thing you know databank is knocked out on the pavement and schlomothehomo has a broken jaw. it's how these things happen.

SchlomoThaHomo said:

We do have a reason to believe WB no longer owns the rights to the song, because it was released on an album that is now owned by Sony.

Yeah but no:

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1/ Unless Prince had gotten the rights to Good Love's masters back in 1998 (possible but very unlikely), he actually stole the song from WB and put it on CB98 without their approval. If WB was to get into a legal argument with Sony over this particular track, it would probably make for a long trial and a legendary headache in the history of legal arguments. WB could have given Prince, then Sony, shit over Good Love, as well as Interactive, So Dark and Tell Me How U Wanna Be Done for that matter (not to mention the near entirety of CB98, which apparently Prince wasn't in a psoition to release in the first place anyway). Clearly, these 2 labels aren't gonna start a legal battle over Prince matters.

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2/ Owned and licenced are 2 different things.

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3/ We have already established, with The Dance Electric, Love Thy Will Be Done and Manic Monday, that WB feels free to publish alternate mixes of tracks for which the masters are actually owned by Sony. And we saw with Crystal Ball and Crucial that they equally feel free to publish alternate mixes of songs owned by the Estate and licenced to Sony. If Sony was about to start a shitstorm, the songs they own would be more serious ground for it than the songs they're being licenced.

Your reasoning is illogical because it requires some sort of rule that would magical apply to certain songs but not to others, without any apparent reason or motive. Again, you call for additional entities when there is no need to.

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As for the PR deluxe, there were a lot of things missing from that set. You can't assume the song was omitted because the curator didn't think it belonged to that era. We know nothing about how it was compiled.

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There weren't that many things missing in terms of official material. It could also be the song is entangled in some exclusive rights issues with USA For Africa, though, IDK (that would explain why the video version as included in The B-Sides instead). One good way to chack that would be to see if any other song on the USA For Africa compilation was later rereleased by any of the artists involved. But admitedly most fans think it belongs with ATWIAD, and I'll admit that it makes sense in terms of recording date, so it's not too far-fetched to assume M. Howe thought the same.

lustmealways said:

databank said:

We're not fighting, we're having a conversation.

all good fights start out as a simple conversation.

next thing you know databank is knocked out on the pavement and schlomothehomo has a broken jaw. it's how these things happen.

databank said:

Unless Prince had gotten the rights to Good Love's masters back in 1998 (possible but very unlikely), he actually stole the song from WB and put it on CB98 without their approval.

Yes, all of the WB material on CB98 would have been unauthorized without permission. Either they gave him permission, or decided not to pursue legal action at the time. My guess is the latter, which would make things a little messy in terms of rights. But Sony does currently own the distribution rights to CB98 and would need to permit any tracks being released on an outside label. Crucial is clearly a different take, no Sony would have no say. Crystal Ball edit is not, but maybe the significantly shorter length quells any legal issues? IDK.

databank said:

We have already established, with The Dance Electric, Love Thy Will Be Done and Manic Monday, that WB feels free to publish alternate mixes of tracks for which the masters are actually owned by Sony.

Sony doesn't own the rights to the WB material until 2021. Where are you getting that Sony currently owns those masters?

SchlomoThaHomo said:

databank said:

Unless Prince had gotten the rights to Good Love's masters back in 1998 (possible but very unlikely), he actually stole the song from WB and put it on CB98 without their approval.

Yes, all of the WB material on CB98 would have been unauthorized without permission. Either they gave him permission, or decided not to pursue legal action at the time. My guess is the latter, which would make things a little messy in terms of rights.

I agree, it's unlikely WB authorized anything. My guess is they just let go because the last thing they needed was another public feud with P, and it was a relatively obscure release anyway. Then came Rave (the track), then came NPGMC and all its vault material (not to mention Thieves Extended and Horny Pony!!), and I guess that's when WB sent Prince a C&D and why Prince never released anything from the vault again after 2001. Hopefully someone will tell the story of what really happened at some point so all this can be clarified.

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But Sony does currently own the distribution rights to CB98 and would need to permit any tracks being released on an outside label. Crucial is clearly a different take, no Sony would have no say. Crystal Ball edit is not, but maybe the significantly shorter length quells any legal issues? IDK.

I'm not quite sure what you don't understand there. Crucial is not an alternate take, it's an alternate mix of the exact same recording, i.e. it shares most of its tracks with the 1997 version. CB is not even an alternate mix, as you say, and it's unheard of that releasing an edit of a song would suddenly make it OK for someone to use masters they can't use. Just imagine: could Prince have released his own greatest hits package on NPG records in 2001 just by editing all his hits by 20 seconds or by rerecording the vocals over the original multitracks? Obviously not. No such thing has ever happened in the history of the music industry. It would defeat the purpose of owning masters if anyone could just use parts of them.

Anyway we're going in a loop there: this still would not explain why the same rules that apply to some songs would not apply to others since we're not talking about releasing the exact same mixes/edits as on CB (the only song that does not benefit an alternate mix -that we know of- being Last Heart, so of course that one was a no go anyway because including it would have been totally redundant).

.

databank said:

We have already established, with The Dance Electric, Love Thy Will Be Done and Manic Monday, that WB feels free to publish alternate mixes of tracks for which the masters are actually owned by Sony.

Sony doesn't own the rights to the WB material until 2021. Where are you getting that Sony currently owns those masters?

Sony owns the Bangles, André Cymone and Martika masters. Except for the vocals and some overdubs, the multitracks used for these 3 songs' original releases is the same as the multitracks used for the Prince versions.

To illustrate this, we can again wonder how it'd have gone if Prince had rereleased a "Very Best of Prince" package in 2001 with the exact same content as the WB one, only he'd have rerecorded the vocals over the original instrumentals? It'd have ended with WB suing Prince and winning.

At best, the use of the multitracks could be considered sampling and subject to a sample licence, but the bottom line is that if Sony had wished to oppose WB releasing these tracks, they could have.

My point was simply that Sony clearly isn't gonna make a fuss over a couple of songs because they share a common multitrack. This just adds to the evidence we have with Crucial and CB on SOTT SDE.

[Edited 9/28/20 12:03pm]

Why wasn't the complete version of ICNTTPOYM released? I would have figured it would be a no-brainer am i missing something?

kek21 said:

databank said:

Sony owns the Bangles, André Cymone and Martika masters. Except for the vocals and some overdubs, the multitracks used for these 3 songs' original releases is the same as the multitracks used for the Prince versions.

To illustrate this, we can again wonder how it'd have gone if Prince had rereleased a "Very Best of Prince" package in 2001 with the exact same content as the WB one, only he'd have rerecorded the vocals over the original instrumentals? It'd have ended with WB suing Prince and winning.

At best, the use of the multitracks could be considered sampling and subject to a sample licence, but the bottom line is that if Sony had wished to oppose WB releasing these tracks, they could have.

My point was simply that Sony clearly isn't gonna make a fuss over a couple of songs because they share a common multitrack. This just adds to the evidence we have with Crucial and CB on SOTT SDE.

[Edited 9/28/20 12:03pm]

Crucial from SOTT SDE is an alternate take, not an alternate mix. Different lyrics, different vocal of course, and it sounds like the drums could be slightly different as well. A different mix would be the exact same version from CB98 with different sound levels.

"Audio mixing is the process by which multiple sounds are combined into one or more channels. In the process, a source's volume level, frequency content, dynamics, and panoramic position are manipulated or enhanced."

Sony owns the rights to the exact version/performance of Crucial on CB98 and nothing else. Don't you remember Prince talking about re-recording his songs, and only changing a lead vocal, or just enough to constitute what would be considered a new master?

The same applies to the Prince recordings of the tracks he gave away. Sony only owns the exact version they released, not Prince's recordings of them. WB owns those. Do you see any mention of Sony in the liner notes on Originals, Purple Rain Deluxe, or even SOTT SDE for that matter?

SchlomoThaHomo said:

databank said:

[Edited 9/28/20 12:03pm]

Crucial from SOTT SDE is an alternate take, not an alternate mix. Different lyrics, different vocal of course, and it sounds like the drums could be slightly different as well. A different mix would be the exact same version from CB98 with different sound levels.

"Audio mixing is the process by which multiple sounds are combined into one or more channels. In the process, a source's volume level, frequency content, dynamics, and panoramic position are manipulated or enhanced."

Sony owns the rights to the exact version/performance of Crucial on CB98 and nothing else. Don't you remember Prince talking about re-recording his songs, and only changing a lead vocal, or just enough to constitute what would be considered a new master?

The same applies to the Prince recordings of the tracks he gave away. Sony only owns the exact version they released, not Prince's recordings of them. WB owns those. Do you see any mention of Sony in the liner notes on Originals, Purple Rain Deluxe, or even SOTT SDE for that matter?

No, I didn't see any mention of Sony precisely because my point is Sony doesn't care. You're being quite insulting there, pretending I said the exact opposite of what I said just so you can make a point.

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Now, "alternate take" comes from jazz and means a different recording, from scratch, of one track, during one session. On the other hand (and I cannot believe you don't know that: at this stage, I believe you're playing mindgames with me), "alternate mix" or "remix" can either mean what you say OR adding and removing certain tracks from the song (you know, as in all these REMIXES on Prince's maxi singles). If we want to be super specific then the "disco mix" of Soft And Wet is an "alternate mix", but the Batdance remixes are "remixes". Therefore, Crucial is a "remix". OK. It don't change nothing. It's still not an "alternate take". And Crystal Ball is still an "edit".

.

So based on your reasoning, any remix = a new master? Therefore any musician is legally entitled to remix and release any song they do not own the rights to? Are you serious? Have you seen many of these on the market? Because I sure haven't. Rerecordings? Yes. Remixes? Nope. Check the Smell My Finger liner notes: Clinton had to licence himself from Capitol to use a sample from one of his older songs on a WB record

.

The thing about Prince remixing his catalogue thus making new masters out of remixes is that it didn't happen. Guess why? It's been discussed in some podcast by an engineer or bandmate (sorry, I don't remember the source), one day someone told Prince he couldn't just do that. That same Prince who believed some years earlier that he could take his masters with him if he left WB.

.

But you know, I'm under the impression that you want to hold on to your belief at all cost and that you do not wish to understand the technicalities, and that no matter how I explain it to you you're gonna circle around my explainations and bring us back to square one ("Dormamuu, I've come to bargain" -> there should be a term for this, like "doctorstrangeing someone" or something).

I've spent enough time explaining the same thing over and over again from every possible angle, IDK what more I can do and I spent enough time on this. So either you play ball, or if you won't then yes, you are right, it's a matter of rights and that's the most rational explaination. It don't make no difference to me at the end of the day. No hard feelings, but no thanks for wasting my time either.

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[Edited 9/28/20 14:52pm]

OperatingThetan said:

We Can Funk Can't Stop This Feeling I Got Girl O' My Dreams 101

I'm kinda suprised these aren't there

ufoclub said:

I do wish Joy in Repetition had been on this set. Even if it was with the dialogue segue connected to The Ball.

Yep, so do i, i keep reading that we can sequence Crystall Ball, Camille and Dream Factory from official releases but there is no JIR without the We Can Funk segue. Or Moviestar without the JOTY intro. Or Feel U Up (unless you have the Partyman CD single)

bigd74 said:

ufoclub said:

I do wish Joy in Repetition had been on this set. Even if it was with the dialogue segue connected to The Ball.

Yep, so do i, i keep reading that we can sequence Crystall Ball, Camille and Dream Factory from official releases but there is no JIR without the We Can Funk segue. Or Moviestar without the JOTY intro. Or Feel U Up (unless you have the Partyman CD single)

And there's even more problems than that. IDK where you "keep reading" this except in Michael Howe's bullshit interview, but it's been established for a while that we cannot recreate any of these configurations with what we currently have from official releases (even counting non-SDE releases such as Partyman or CB '98).

hyperpessimist said:

Hi all, I am of course over the moon with SoTT expanded... particularly enjoying the vault CDs and the DVD... It's an amazing labout of love, all the way down to the photos, the design, the essays.

The problem is, I can't shake the feeling that this edition is still incomplete.

I mean, how can the "audio" story of SoTT be told in the absence of the full version of Crystal Ball, Dream Factory, Movie Star...

I know the reason for their absence is the fact tha they were released by in 1998.

Still, the fact that there is a tangible reason for their absence doesn't get rid of this feeling that the whole set, however wonderful it is (and it IS) has a big hole as far as vault tracks go.

So I created an additional, fourth CD with the vault tracks that were released in 1998:

- Crystal Ball (full version)
- Dream Factory
- Movie Star
- Crucial (alt.)
- Last Heart
- Make Your Mama Happy
- Sexual Suicide
- Good Love
+ I added the "sisters and brothers" version of Crystal Ball at the end.

Now it feels a lot more complete

Curious - does anyone have an easy way to normalize the sound on these songs to match the sound levels on SOTT:SDE? I know whatever could be done would be crude adjustments, just curious.

databank said:

SchlomoThaHomo said:

Crucial from SOTT SDE is an alternate take, not an alternate mix. Different lyrics, different vocal of course, and it sounds like the drums could be slightly different as well. A different mix would be the exact same version from CB98 with different sound levels.

"Audio mixing is the process by which multiple sounds are combined into one or more channels. In the process, a source's volume level, frequency content, dynamics, and panoramic position are manipulated or enhanced."

Sony owns the rights to the exact version/performance of Crucial on CB98 and nothing else. Don't you remember Prince talking about re-recording his songs, and only changing a lead vocal, or just enough to constitute what would be considered a new master?

The same applies to the Prince recordings of the tracks he gave away. Sony only owns the exact version they released, not Prince's recordings of them. WB owns those. Do you see any mention of Sony in the liner notes on Originals, Purple Rain Deluxe, or even SOTT SDE for that matter?

SOME DISRESPECTFUL AND CONDESCENDING BS

Here I thought we were having a respectul conversation. Bye now.

SchlomoThaHomo said:

databank said:

SOME DISRESPECTFUL AND CONDESCENDING BS

Here I thought we were having a respectul conversation. Bye now.

i told y'all it was a fight.