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Thread started 09/19/20 3:24pm

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

the black album should have been released in 87

thinking about this period recently, what with all the stuff about the SOTT era doing the rounds at the moment, i genuinely believe prince did have worries about releasing this, but not because it was 'evil', more becuase it was a quickie, not as considered as parade, or sott, and just because it provided some insight into some of his pettiness. he was quite a guarded person, so something this off the cuff was obv not what he wanted scrutinised.

it would prob also have made him look a bit out of step and reactionary (something an artist with his ego prob would not have wanted), dissing hip hop on dead on it, etc. might have also just been the ecstasy he took with ingrid chavez too lol (talk about an expensive way to come down!).

all that said, i think all those things are exactly what made/make it so good. i wont get into any pontificating about how it might have changed his career, though it might have reduced his fears that he was losing touch with his R&B/funk fans/black radio, who knows.

i imagine rock critics would sneer at it as throwaways, funk jams, all the usual stuff, but i think a lot of fans would have seen it as his funkiest, hardest, bad-assest and rawest album in some time (same for the camille album really). its the kind of thing he probably needed. lovesexy was another album where he was embracing a certain kind of loftiness and sophistication. def not street level like TBA. and remember, this was after a few years of prince trying to get more sophisticated - this was the total opposite. anyone thinking prince had lost his touch as a forward looking funk/dance artist would have had to eat their words. would it have altered the next few years? prob not - lovesexy might still have been the logical follow up. But what a great way to show another side of his music in this era.

i think the main reason for not allowing it out there is that it just didnt fit the image he was trying to cultivate at that point. he was obv happy enough with the songs as he performed two of them on the 88 tour.

the most bizarre thing about stopping TBA is that for his complaining that warners couldnt keep up with his pace, or were trying to stop him releasing more music, they actually WERE ok with this release. it was LITERALLY ready to go.

[Edited 9/19/20 15:25pm]

[Edited 9/19/20 15:48pm]

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Reply #1 posted 09/20/20 12:12am

mediumdry

I agree, it should have been released in 87. Along with Crystal Ball. And in 86 They should have also released Under The Cherry Moon with the different ending, as well as the Dream Factory Album and in 87 the Camille album and an instrumental album by The Flesh.

.

I would have bought all of it, an album every month if that were possible.

Paisley Park is in your heart - Love Is Here!
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Reply #2 posted 09/20/20 12:47am

BlueShakooo

Yeah, there are so many things that would have been great releases during his career!
But the movies Under The Cherry Moon and Graffiti Bridge shouldn't have been released. wink
(and I'm glad he didn't release that Hard Life short film btw.)
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Reply #3 posted 09/20/20 1:24am

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

mediumdry said:

I agree, it should have been released in 87. Along with Crystal Ball. And in 86 They should have also released Under The Cherry Moon with the different ending, as well as the Dream Factory Album and in 87 the Camille album and an instrumental album by The Flesh.


.


I would have bought all of it, an album every month if that were possible.



Camille and TBA definitely.
I can see why DF didnt get submitted to warners. It doesn't quite hold. Even though a lot of great tracks are on it. Crystal ball is a better album. Though I like it as it is too, where apart from a few overlapping songs, sott, camille and TBA are all their own albums.
Utcm, I doubt anything would have saved it. Film was not princes forte lol
[Edited 9/20/20 1:33am]
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Reply #4 posted 09/20/20 1:26am

mediumdry

Under The Cherry Moon (even as released) is nothing like Grafitti Bridge...GB shouldn't have been released, I agree. UTCM is a fun movie and could even have been good with a different ending, even though it's a bit self-indulgent and doesn't have too great a storyboard. As it is, looking at it now, UTCM is Prince's best movie... Purple Rain is just too mysoginistic and the acting is even worse.. SOTT movie is just completely ruined with all those awful vignettes. GB is a complete abomination... which leaves UTCM as the only "acceptable" movie he made.

Paisley Park is in your heart - Love Is Here!
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Reply #5 posted 09/20/20 1:31am

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

I need to rewatch it.
I never hated it tbh.
Apart from the songs/terrific performances, and a few scenes, pr is an awful film.
[Edited 9/20/20 1:32am]
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Reply #6 posted 09/20/20 1:36am

NME01

I think there’s a lot of truth to this opinion.

Just thinking about how grandiose his concepts had become from 85’ onwards. The many reconfigurations of the albums etc.

He then finally pushed-out SOTT, critical acclaim, blew people’s minds - he’d reached another level etc.

To release TBA May have killed that momentum (not for us fans, we love it).
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Reply #7 posted 09/20/20 7:18am

MinorG

I had a weird thought at the end of listening to the latest SOTT podcasts, where they trail the upcoming podcast and show a snippet of an interview with Larry Waronker and he's talking about having to tell Prince they weren't gong to release Crystal Ball, and that Prince was angry and pissed.

And the thought was - what if TBA was Prince getting revenge for the Crystal Ball over Warners? I.e. if you dictate to me what I can release, then I'm going to dictate to you what can be released. In 1986/7 they deny him a record, so later in 1987 he denies them a record.

I know the normal narrative is that Prince thought it was evil, Blue Tuesday etc, but maybe he was just being petty and trolling WB? The initial narrative for the name change was also this spiritual thing but over time it became more a business attempt to escape a contract, so maybe there was something similar to the non-release of TBA?

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Reply #8 posted 09/20/20 8:43am

ufoclub

avatar

I can tell you that in 1988... some of my non-prince-fan friends couldn't get into Lovesexy when I put it on, but with the Black Album, they asked for cassette copies and played it in their cars.

Months before that,

I remember a student DJ coming back with the promo vinyl for Lovesexy before the release date, and just dropping it in our room without a word. We jumped on it and put it on. He had left, but walking by. minute or two later, he peeked in as Eye No was playing and said, "Oh no.. he used that old beat?" in disappointment.

This was at U.T. Austin. Soon you would hear white frat boys blasting Public Enemy alongside 2 Live Crew.

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Reply #9 posted 09/20/20 9:10am

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

Yeah TBA was a cut the shit type album
Musically the most intense thing he did since 1999 I would say
I'd delete when 2 r in love from it but hey i guess it needed a break in there somewhere
If he released it i think it would have been like his equivalent of kanyes yeezus album, a wtf/divisive thing, in a good way
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Reply #10 posted 09/20/20 9:13am

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

MinorG said:

I had a weird thought at the end of listening to the latest SOTT podcasts, where they trail the upcoming podcast and show a snippet of an interview with Larry Waronker and he's talking about having to tell Prince they weren't gong to release Crystal Ball, and that Prince was angry and pissed.



And the thought was - what if TBA was Prince getting revenge for the Crystal Ball over Warners? I.e. if you dictate to me what I can release, then I'm going to dictate to you what can be released. In 1986/7 they deny him a record, so later in 1987 he denies them a record.



I know the normal narrative is that Prince thought it was evil, Blue Tuesday etc, but maybe he was just being petty and trolling WB? The initial narrative for the name change was also this spiritual thing but over time it became more a business attempt to escape a contract, so maybe there was something similar to the non-release of TBA?









Interesting theory but AFAIK prince had to pay the cost for destroying all the copies at the manufacturing plant.

Does anyone of any similar stories of artists pulling albums at the 11th hour? This seems quite unusual.

I think it was all down to dead on it. I cant see what else on there prince could see as being 'negative'. He was THAT worried how it might make him look. Crazy.
[Edited 9/20/20 9:16am]
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Reply #11 posted 09/20/20 9:24am

AvocadosMax

Under The Cherry Moon would have been great if it had
1) different ending
2) filmed/released in color
3) a good director
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Reply #12 posted 09/20/20 11:42am

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

The black album was like someone youd go to a club with and maybe a sleazy sex joint after
Lovesexy was like soneone youd go to a self improvement group with
Lol
Or it was like someone who had been to one and wanted you to go too
(Not dissing it, alphabet st, glam slam, Anna stasia and I wish u heaven are all time classic)
[Edited 9/20/20 11:42am]
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Reply #13 posted 09/20/20 2:41pm

mynameisnotsus
an

It should have been released as a double with Lovesexy - light and dark. It actually held alot of power unreleased - definitely added to his mystique
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Reply #14 posted 09/21/20 5:49am

Nasalhair

I'm sure I'm in the minority but I much prefer The Black Album to Lovesexy. Never really got into Lovesexy at all, and actively dislike some tracks on it, but I love TBA.

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Reply #15 posted 09/21/20 5:55am

mediumdry

Nasalhair said:

I'm sure I'm in the minority but I much prefer The Black Album to Lovesexy. Never really got into Lovesexy at all, and actively dislike some tracks on it, but I love TBA.

.

Bought the lovesexy cd the day it was released (before the LP, which I bought later), got home, played it took it out of the cd player and threw it across the room, disgusted. My brother now has that cracked cd, I think. It still played, as the crack was on the outside and cds play inside to outside.

.

So, I don't know if you're in the minority, but, if so, it's a minority I am definitely in. cool

Paisley Park is in your heart - Love Is Here!
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Reply #16 posted 09/21/20 6:30am

Poplife88

avatar

ufoclub said:

I can tell you that in 1988... some of my non-prince-fan friends couldn't get into Lovesexy when I put it on, but with the Black Album, they asked for cassette copies and played it in their cars.

Months before that,

I remember a student DJ coming back with the promo vinyl for Lovesexy before the release date, and just dropping it in our room without a word. We jumped on it and put it on. He had left, but walking by. minute or two later, he peeked in as Eye No was playing and said, "Oh no.. he used that old beat?" in disappointment.

This was at U.T. Austin. Soon you would hear white frat boys blasting Public Enemy alongside 2 Live Crew.

Very similar experience with my friends. I had one side TBA the other side Lovesexy. They all wents nuts over The Black Album, and I had the shittiest, at least 8th generation, copy. I coudn't get ANYone on board with Lovesexy. I had to put TBA on its own tape after awhile, as I was worried the tape was going wear out from all the copying and rewinding!

Personally I like both, but have to admit, Lovesexy had to grow on me at the time.

We're gonna need a bigger boat
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Reply #17 posted 09/21/20 12:54pm

ufoclub

avatar

Poplife88 said:

ufoclub said:

I can tell you that in 1988... some of my non-prince-fan friends couldn't get into Lovesexy when I put it on, but with the Black Album, they asked for cassette copies and played it in their cars.

Months before that,

I remember a student DJ coming back with the promo vinyl for Lovesexy before the release date, and just dropping it in our room without a word. We jumped on it and put it on. He had left, but walking by. minute or two later, he peeked in as Eye No was playing and said, "Oh no.. he used that old beat?" in disappointment.

This was at U.T. Austin. Soon you would hear white frat boys blasting Public Enemy alongside 2 Live Crew.

Very similar experience with my friends. I had one side TBA the other side Lovesexy. They all wents nuts over The Black Album, and I had the shittiest, at least 8th generation, copy. I coudn't get ANYone on board with Lovesexy. I had to put TBA on its own tape after awhile, as I was worried the tape was going wear out from all the copying and rewinding!

Personally I like both, but have to admit, Lovesexy had to grow on me at the time.

Not gonna lie... The Black Album is my all time favorite. I"m sure the mystique helped too, and the quest aspect. But it's just so rich, and cohesive, and wild. And dark and violent.

But yeah, non prince fans, guys at least, really seemed to like it on first listen. It would have hit bigger than people think. Lovesexy the album bombed in the states.

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Reply #18 posted 09/21/20 1:21pm

SoulAlive

I think Prince was wise not to release TBA in 1987.It works better as an underground bootleg.The mystique and the curiosity sorta makes the album more amazing and more important than it really is.

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Reply #19 posted 09/21/20 1:36pm

SimonCharles

avatar

Nasalhair said:

I'm sure I'm in the minority but I much prefer The Black Album to Lovesexy. Never really got into Lovesexy at all, and actively dislike some tracks on it, but I love TBA.

I don't know about a minority - it's not a group I'm in (I adore Lovesexy - the depth of mix/layered instrumentation leaves me spellbound to this day) - but I absolutely see where you're coming from. I loved the Blak Album's counterpoint to Lovesexy, especially given the way it was engaged with by Prince through the Alphabet St video, the Lovesexy tourbook and tour itself - playing Black Album songs, tacit acknowledgement that people knew what these were. It melded together as a singular entity for me. And made them both all the more enjoyable.

[Edited 9/21/20 13:36pm]

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Reply #20 posted 09/21/20 1:37pm

SimonCharles

avatar

mediumdry said:

Nasalhair said:

I'm sure I'm in the minority but I much prefer The Black Album to Lovesexy. Never really got into Lovesexy at all, and actively dislike some tracks on it, but I love TBA.

.

Bought the lovesexy cd the day it was released (before the LP, which I bought later), got home, played it took it out of the cd player and threw it across the room, disgusted. My brother now has that cracked cd, I think. It still played, as the crack was on the outside and cds play inside to outside.

.

So, I don't know if you're in the minority, but, if so, it's a minority I am definitely in. cool

Curiously, I had a similar reaction to Graffiti Bridge...and I had bought a second copy to give as a gift to a friend. I had never been embarrassed by a Prince record before. It was horrible.

Words are like shoes...
Try my shoes on...
https://simoncwilliamsblo...press.com/
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Reply #21 posted 09/21/20 2:07pm

woogiebear

WB should have just let Him DO HIM!!! As long as He's making the Label Money, SO THE F**K WHAT!!! At that time, there were only a few Artists that, WHATEVER They put out was at LEAST gonna go Platinum: Michael Jackson, Madonna, Bruce Springsteen & Prince!!! And MAYBE Tina Turner

cool cool

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Reply #22 posted 09/22/20 6:19pm

Shockedelicus

The Black Album should have been released in 87, but it's a very flawed album. Just a lot of songs that are fun in concept but not super interesting. It needed more genuine bangers. As it is now, it's just not that funky or dark and most of its reputation as a lost masterpeice is hype. Replace some of the weaker, gimmicky tracks with Rebirth of the Flesh, Sex of It, even Shockadelica. It just lacks tightness.

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Reply #23 posted 09/22/20 6:25pm

SoulAlive

Shockedelicus said:

it's a very flawed album. Just a lot of songs that are fun in concept but not super interesting. It needed more genuine bangers. As it is now, it's just not that funky or dark and most of its reputation as a lost masterpeice is hype.


I agree.I enjoy a few of the tracks but I don’t think this album is the big,funk masterpiece that some folks make it out to be.
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Reply #24 posted 09/23/20 12:39pm

Pellwormer

Oh...I really like UTCM ....and I won't change a thing....hey..sometimes I like it more than Purple Rain...when I'm in the mood for fun smile

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Reply #25 posted 09/23/20 3:37pm

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

Shockedelicus said:

The Black Album should have been released in 87, but it's a very flawed album. Just a lot of songs that are fun in concept but not super interesting. It needed more genuine bangers. As it is now, it's just not that funky or dark and most of its reputation as a lost masterpeice is hype. Replace some of the weaker, gimmicky tracks with Rebirth of the Flesh, Sex of It, even Shockadelica. It just lacks tightness.

huh?

le grind, cindy c, these are 100% bangers!

it has a sort of 'i just made this very quickly' vibe to it, but then he did it just to have some new songs to play at sheila e's bday party so that follows.

but in spite of that apparent disposability, or because of it, it seems to have freed him just to have fun,and to let the funk flow.

it might have been a tighter EP if you get rid of when 2 r in love and dead on it, but dead on it is stupid but funny.

rather than a funk album though, id see it as an intense album. every track, except 2RIL, has a certain heat to it.

[Edited 9/23/20 15:39pm]

[Edited 9/23/20 15:40pm]

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Reply #26 posted 09/23/20 4:04pm

slyjackson

Shockedelicus said:

The Black Album should have been released in 87, but it's a very flawed album. Just a lot of songs that are fun in concept but not super interesting. It needed more genuine bangers. As it is now, it's just not that funky or dark and most of its reputation as a lost masterpeice is hype. Replace some of the weaker, gimmicky tracks with Rebirth of the Flesh, Sex of It, even Shockadelica. It just lacks tightness.

Shockadelica and Rebirth deserved a better album like SOTT meanwhile TBA should have been released as an EP with Rockhard, Bob George, Le Grind, Superfnuky and Cindy.

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Reply #27 posted 09/23/20 4:09pm

ufoclub

avatar

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

Shockedelicus said:

The Black Album should have been released in 87, but it's a very flawed album. Just a lot of songs that are fun in concept but not super interesting. It needed more genuine bangers. As it is now, it's just not that funky or dark and most of its reputation as a lost masterpeice is hype. Replace some of the weaker, gimmicky tracks with Rebirth of the Flesh, Sex of It, even Shockadelica. It just lacks tightness.

huh?

le grind, cindy c, these are 100% bangers!

it has a sort of 'i just made this very quickly' vibe to it, but then he did it just to have some new songs to play at sheila e's bday party so that follows.

but in spite of that apparent disposability, or because of it, it seems to have freed him just to have fun,and to let the funk flow.

it might have been a tighter EP if you get rid of when 2 r in love and dead on it, but dead on it is stupid but funny.

rather than a funk album though, id see it as an intense album. every track, except 2RIL, has a certain heat to it.

[Edited 9/23/20 15:39pm]

[Edited 9/23/20 15:40pm]

Musically, "Dead On It" is really cool, the guitar and elements that come in and out. I remember guitarist friends of mine liking that one.

And yes the album was the most listened to Prince shit for me. Non prince fans would remark, "this is a party record!" But hey, there's no accounting for tastes. Some people are satisfied with "The Gold Standard" razz

[Edited 9/23/20 16:09pm]

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Reply #28 posted 09/23/20 4:30pm

slyjackson

mediumdry said:

Nasalhair said:

I'm sure I'm in the minority but I much prefer The Black Album to Lovesexy. Never really got into Lovesexy at all, and actively dislike some tracks on it, but I love TBA.

.

Bought the lovesexy cd the day it was released (before the LP, which I bought later), got home, played it took it out of the cd player and threw it across the room, disgusted. My brother now has that cracked cd, I think. It still played, as the crack was on the outside and cds play inside to outside.

.

So, I don't know if you're in the minority, but, if so, it's a minority I am definitely in. cool

I'm with you, and overrated piece of trash.

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Reply #29 posted 09/23/20 4:39pm

LoveGalore

slyjackson said:

mediumdry said:

.

Bought the lovesexy cd the day it was released (before the LP, which I bought later), got home, played it took it out of the cd player and threw it across the room, disgusted. My brother now has that cracked cd, I think. It still played, as the crack was on the outside and cds play inside to outside.

.

So, I don't know if you're in the minority, but, if so, it's a minority I am definitely in. cool

I'm with you, and overrated piece of trash.

So what you're saying here, just to be certain, is that Prince's "Lovesexy" album is an "overrated piece of trash"?

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