mediumdry said:

jaawwnn said:

Not a fan of "the Dan" in the slightest, openly despise some of their stuff. Not a slight on then, it's just not for me.

I often feel that Prince's best "jazz" instincts made it into his songwriting so he can pretty much gather all his skills and write a song on the fly, allowing his subconscious and I suppose songwriting muscle memory to take him somewhere in the same way a jazz player improvises in the moment.

Steely Dan on the other hand clearly have a very, very different form of craft where they're writing much less and working away at their songs, perfecting them over a very long time (as per all those stories of millions of takes on guitar solos or whatever). Their jazz instincts more inform their clever chord choices and arrangements. In a way closer to the hard, painstaking craft of ABBA than to Prince where I feel the hardwork happens before the songwriting, rather than during.

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Good point. They definitely put in a lot of studio hours per song! Although I appreciate ABBA, I feel that the music of Steely Dan has a sophistication that goes beyond Prince even, especially their later work. Prince made it somewhat of a point to not learn music in the abstract way and it limited him somewhat. Meaning, I think he could've even been more interesting!

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I guess the first take mentality came from his inability to not quickly finish a song before the next one came along, often to the detriment of his songs and sounds. Steely Dan are the other extreme almost, where a bit of going for happy accidents and spontaneity might have improved their work.

Makes me want to go back and check out some songs where Prince is believed to not have worked quite so quickly.

P also pulled songs out of the vault to work or rework, sometimes years later. Did Steely Dan do anything like that? I guess most musicians probably have things they put aside, then pull out again to work on further.

mediumdry said:

TrivialPursuit said:

And speaking of "boring" type music, to each his own of course.

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Oh certainly. I don't mean to say they are bad bands, simply that I never could get into them (the fault lies entirely with me), mostly to point out that I don't understand the perceived closeness/sameness to SD.

There are plenty of bands I don't get into. Led Zeppelin being one. I don't get the hype. I just don't. Frankly, there's good portions of Bowie's catalog I just scratch my head about, and think "WTF IS THIS?!"

Wendy Melvoin once suggested I listen to Avalon by Roxy Music. I did and was bored out of my skull. She later said, "You didn't like it, did you?" She relishes the album, and I can see why. I told her it was good musicianship, but the style wasn't my gig.

I also can't stand Tom Petty or Stevie Nicks. There. I said it. Imagine my effortless running in the other direction when they did a duet. Nicks' voice just ...GOD sometimes it's too much. It's grating. I can tolerate her sometimes, but I wouldn't buy one of her records.

Interesting, Avalon is by far Roxy Music's sleekest album, I love it. Some Roxy fans hate it because it's lacking the in-your-face experimenation of their earlier work.

rednblue said:

mediumdry said:

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Good point. They definitely put in a lot of studio hours per song! Although I appreciate ABBA, I feel that the music of Steely Dan has a sophistication that goes beyond Prince even, especially their later work. Prince made it somewhat of a point to not learn music in the abstract way and it limited him somewhat. Meaning, I think he could've even been more interesting!

.

I guess the first take mentality came from his inability to not quickly finish a song before the next one came along, often to the detriment of his songs and sounds. Steely Dan are the other extreme almost, where a bit of going for happy accidents and spontaneity might have improved their work.

Makes me want to go back and check out some songs where Prince is believed to not have worked quite so quickly.

P also pulled songs out of the vault to work or rework, sometimes years later. Did Steely Dan do anything like that? I guess most musicians probably have things they put aside, then pull out again to work on further.

It's true, my theory doesn't fully hold up because we have many examples of him stuff revisiting songs over the years and trying again, some songs like Baby I'm A Star we now he was sweating over the arrangement for weeks... it does seem to be the exception rather than the rule but I may be way off.

jaawwnn said:

Interesting, Avalon is by far Roxy Music's sleekest album, I love it. Some Roxy fans hate it because it's lacking the in-your-face experimenation of their earlier work.

rednblue said:

Makes me want to go back and check out some songs where Prince is believed to not have worked quite so quickly.

P also pulled songs out of the vault to work or rework, sometimes years later. Did Steely Dan do anything like that? I guess most musicians probably have things they put aside, then pull out again to work on further.

It's true, my theory doesn't fully hold up because we have many examples of him stuff revisiting songs over the years and trying again, some songs like Baby I'm A Star we now he was sweating over the arrangement for weeks... it does seem to be the exception rather than the rule but I may be way off.

Just to be clear, I didn't mean to challenge what you're saying. Many have attested to Prince being really, really good at working fast and moving on. Take it from someone with pretty severe OCD...it can be crippling to have almost zero ability to do this. : )

And thank goodness Prince was great at it. It meant he left us a ton of brilliant music.

I was truly curious as to whether people see some different qualities in those occasional songs P did work on for a relatively long time.

Do much enjoy the stories of Prince pulling things out of the vault for further work, but as said before, would guess many artists do some revisiting of creations from earlier times. I was curious if Steely Dan did this at all or often. I don't know much about how they worked.

Of course, as you suggested, time spent working on a song can be hard to define. For artists, taking inspiration from life, percolating ideas, etc. can go way back. Along these lines, appreciated you describing your sense that "the hardwork happens before the songwriting, rather than during."

Appreciated this observation, too: "I often feel that Prince's best 'jazz' instincts made it into his songwriting so he can pretty much gather all his skills and write a song on the fly, allowing his subconscious and I suppose songwriting muscle memory to take him somewhere in the same way a jazz player improvises in the moment."

Miles on Prince- "Yeah, he's one of America's greatest poets."

Miles on Miles, Interviews and Encounters with Miles Davis"

rednblue said:

jaawwnn said:

Interesting, Avalon is by far Roxy Music's sleekest album, I love it. Some Roxy fans hate it because it's lacking the in-your-face experimenation of their earlier work.

It's true, my theory doesn't fully hold up because we have many examples of him stuff revisiting songs over the years and trying again, some songs like Baby I'm A Star we now he was sweating over the arrangement for weeks... it does seem to be the exception rather than the rule but I may be way off.

Just to be clear, I didn't mean to challenge what you're saying. Many have attested to Prince being really, really good at working fast and moving on. Take it from someone with pretty severe OCD...it can be crippling to have almost zero ability to do this. : )

And thank goodness Prince was great at it. It meant he left us a ton of brilliant music.

I was truly curious as to whether people see some different qualities in those occasional songs P did work on for a relatively long time.

Do much enjoy the stories of Prince pulling things out of the vault for further work, but as said before, would guess many artists do some revisiting of creations from earlier times. I was curious if Steely Dan did this at all or often. I don't know much about how they worked.

Of course, as you suggested, time spent working on a song can be hard to define. For artists, taking inspiration from life, percolating ideas, etc. can go way back. Along these lines, appreciated you describing your sense that "the hardwork happens before the songwriting, rather than during."

Appreciated this observation, too: "I often feel that Prince's best 'jazz' instincts made it into his songwriting so he can pretty much gather all his skills and write a song on the fly, allowing his subconscious and I suppose songwriting muscle memory to take him somewhere in the same way a jazz player improvises in the moment."

S'all good, it's just a discussion, i'm enjoying it!

I like the story of how he could never get My Summertime Thang to work and was always taking it out and discarding it again - I think you can hear that in the song; the groove starts off like Prince classic but it never really goes anywhere, it does sound a bit forced. Still decent of course.