Hi everyone. I decided to start this topic as an offshoot to what was being discussed in this thread...

Witness 4 The Prosecution (Version 1) (2020 Remaster)
https://prince.org/msg/7/463545

I didn't want to take the discussion off topic and I thought this point warranted it's own thread.
The subject came up of what sequences of Dream Factory, Camille and Crystal Ball will be possible to sequence yourself after SOTT:SD is released.

According to Michael Howe in his latest interview with Super Deluxe... Editionhttps://www.superdeluxeedition.com/interview/prince-archivist-michael-howe-talks-sde-through-sign-o-the-times-bonus-cuts/

“SDE: And Dream Factory had at least three different track listings I believe, so it was a moving target the whole time.

MH: That’s correct. The prevailing wisdom was to basically look at the final iteration of what Dream Factory would entail and that was around mid-July 1986. So we basically encompassed everything that would have been, or could have been, on that release and on Camille and the unredacted Sign O’ The Times – basically, Crystal Ball. And the idea was to include everything so that the listener – and this is in the streaming world, obviously – could sequence any of those things in the way that he or she wants. You know, if you want to listen to the original Dream Factory you can do that, if you want to listen to Camille as it was originally envisioned, you can do that.”

On the surface there is a semblance of truth to this, however for the more pedantic fans (me included) how accurate is this claim?

Since SOTT:SD hasn’t been released yet and very few of the unreleased albums in question have leaked as a single source, I’m going to have to make some assumptions here as to whether the intended mixes / edits will be the same as the released versions. Unless I have reason to believe otherwise, I’ll tentatively assume these to be correct. Hopefully with some educated guess work we should be able to get some idea of what can be achieved through streaming services and for people making their own playlists from CDs.

DREAM FACTORY (version 1 : April 1986)

Side 1:
Visions (SOTT:SD)
Dream Factory (Two different edits of this song are known to exist. It is unknown which of the two was intended for this early album sequence. The longer of the two is available on streaming service and CD via Crystal Ball ‘98. Given that this side includes 6 tracks I’d hazard a guess that Prince used the shorter edit here, but I have no way to verify this.)
Wonderful Day (SOTT:SD)
The Ballad Of Dorothy Parker (SOTT:SD)
Big Tall Wall (SOTT:SD)
And That Says What? (SOTT:SD)

Side 2:
Strange Relationship (SOTT:SD)
Teacher, Teacher (SOTT:SD)
Starfish And Coffee (A minor detail, but the released version will include the alarm clock sound effect that wasn’t present on this sequence. This can easily be edited out at home, but would be a minor deviation on streaming services.)
A Place In Heaven (I’m uncertain as to whether Prince used his own vocals on this version of the album, or weather it was Lisa’s. Providing the tracks on SOTT:SD have clean beginnings with no segues then there’s a good chance this song would be accurately portrayed as the version from this album sequence.)
Sexual Suicide (According to Prince Vault, the version included on this album differs to the released version although no further details are given.)

In summary, although it seems that both streamers and people editing their own sequences together can probably achieve something close to this early sequence, some edits may vary and we apparently do not have access to the correct version of Sexual Suicide.


DREAM FACTORY (version 2 : June 1986)

Side 1:
Visions (SOTT:SD)
Dream Factory (Again, we have no way of knowing for certain which edit is used here. However, given that this side includes the same tracks as the July configuration, and assuming that all the popular Dream Factory bootlegs are accurate, it’s likely that the unreleased shorter edit belongs here.)
Wonderful Day (SOTT:SD)
The Ballad Of Dorothy Parker (SOTT:SD)
It (SOTT:SD)

Side 2:
Strange Relationship (SOTT:SD)
Teacher, Teacher (SOTT:SD)
Starfish And Coffee (again, the minor issue of the alarm clock)
Colors (SOTT:SD)
In A Large Room With No Light (SOTT:SD)
Nevaeh Ni Ecalp A (SOTT:SD. A possible sticking point here since this is a segue. I’m going to assume the segue fits in both sequences and wasn’t edited differently to fit on each album. This may not be correct.)
Sexual Suicide (No mention on Prince Vault this time as to whether this version differs to the released one. As such I’ll green light it on this occasion unless I learn otherwise.)

Side 3
Crystal Ball (The Dream Factory version of Crystal Ball hasn’t been released and doesn’t feature on SOTT:SD. As such it will remain impossible to create your own copy of this sequence without resorting to a bootleg. It also means streamers can not re-create an accurate playlist of this album)
Power Fantastic (According to Prince Vault, the version of Power Fantastic from Dream Factory includes the extended intro that was omitted from The Hits / The B-Sides. Unless the intro was taken from the forthcoming ‘Live In Studio’ version then this track can also not be include accurately without resorting to a bootleg)

Side 4
Last Heart (Crystal Ball ‘98)
Witness 4 The Prosecution (SOTT:SD)
Movie Star (Is available on Crystal Ball ‘98, although there are a couple of minor details to consider. Firstly, the intro on CB’98 has the 1996 track ‘Jam Of The Year’ dubbed over the intro. The only way to get a clean intro as intended would be to use a bootleged copy. Also Movie Star and A Place in Heaven were intended to overlap which can not be achieved via a streaming service.)
A Place In Heaven (Needs to overlap with Movie Star. Can not be achieved via a streaming service.)
All My Dreams (SOTT:SD)

In summary, it isn’t possible to accurately recreate this album on streaming services. Making your own copy at home can not be achieved using only officially released material.


DREAM FACTORY (version 3 : July 1986)

Side 1
Visions (SOTT:SD)

Nevaeh Ni Ecalp A (SOTT:SD. See above.)
Dream Factory (As above, assuming that all the popular Dream Factory bootlegs are accurate, it’s likely that the unreleased shorter edit belongs here.)

Train (SOTT:SD)
The Ballad Of Dorothy Parker (SOTT:SD)
It (SOTT:SD)


Side 2:
Strange Relationship (SOTT:SD)
Slow Love (SOTT:SD)
Starfish And Coffee (again, the minor issue of the alarm clock)
Colors (SOTT:SD)
I Could Never Take The Place Of Your Man (The released version is about 20 seconds shorter than the Dream Factory version.)

Side 3:
Sign O' The Times (requires the single edit, available on SOTT:SD)
Crystal Ball (Again, The Dream Factory version of Crystal Ball hasn’t been released and doesn’t feature on SOTT:SD.)
A Place In Heaven (SOTT:SD)

Side 4:
Last Heart (Crystal Ball ‘98)
Witness 4 The Prosecution (SOTT:SD)
Movie Star (As above, the Crystal Ball ‘98 version has the altered ‘Jam of the Year’ intro)
The Cross (SOTT:SD)
All My Dreams (SOTT:SD)

In summary without the proper version of Crystal Ball, and a handful of songs not having the corrected edits, it isn’t possible to accurately steam or sequence this version of the album.


CAMILLE

OK, so this one is awkward to talk about. For the benefit of those who missed it, some intel on this record leaked out recently when a private conversation between a couple of forum users accidentally went public. I feel a bit dirty discussing it as this information wasn’t intended for the wider forum, however it’s out there now. The long and short of it is that some of the mixes on the Camille test pressing differ from the released versions that ended up on various albums and singles. The exact details as to which tracks are unknown, but it was confirmed that the Camille album cannot be sequenced accurately from what is currently available, even after ‘Rebirth of the Flesh’ comes out on SOTT:SD.

Even if we disregarded this information, there are still problems when trying to sequence a Camille playlist.

Side 1:
Rebirth Of The Flesh (SOTT:SD, assuming this version segues cleanly into Housequake)
Housequake (SOTT:SD, see above)
Strange Relationship (SOTT:SD)
Feel U Up (Full version not available on streaming services. Requires the Partyman CD single. The 7” edit can be included from The Hits / The B Sides)

Side 2:
Shockadelica (SOTT:SD)
Goodlove (Bright Lights Big City OST is available to stream according to Qobuz)
If I Was Your Girlfriend (It’s believed that the wedding intro is omitted on this album)
Rockhard In A Funky Place (Not available on streaming services. Requiers the Black album CD)

In summary, it’s possible to sequence an album on CD in close approximation to Camille, although apparently the mixes will not be exactly the same as the test press. This can not be achieved on streaming services.


CRYSTAL BALL

Side 1:
Rebirth Of The Flesh (Requires a different edit to that coming out on SOTT:SD)
Play In The Sunshine (Intro segues differently to the version on SOTT)
Housequake (SOTT:SD)
The Ballad Of Dorothy Parker (SOTT:SD)

Side 2:
It (SOTT:SD)
Starfish And Coffee (SOTT:SD)
Slow Love (SOTT:SD)
Hot Thing (SOTT:SD)

Side 3:
Crystal Ball (Crystal Ball ‘98)
If I Was Your Girlfriend (Providing the 2015 leak of this album is genuine, it seems that this version also omits the wedding intro).
Rockhard In A Funky Place (Not available on streaming services. Requiers the Black album CD)

Side 4:
The Ball (SOTT:SD, although it requires seguing into Joy In Repition which can’t be achieved through streaming)
Joy In Repetition (On Graffiti Bridge, however it requires being segued from The Ball. In addition the Graffiti Bridge version contains an audio glitch that isn’t present on the Crystal Ball master).
Strange Relationship (SOTT:SD)
I Could Never Take The Place Of Your Man (Going by my copy, it appears that ICNTTPOYM is slightly shorter on Crytal Ball. It may just be the tape playing at a slightly faster speed. I’ll let this one slide as it may just be my copy, but I’ll look into this.)

Side 5:
Shockadelica (SOTT:SD)
Good Love (Bright Lights Big City OST is available to stream according to Qobuz)
Forever In My Life (SOTT:SD)
Sign O' The Times (SOTT:SD)

Side 6:
The Cross (SOTT:SD)
It's Gonna Be A Beautiful Night (SOTT:SD)
Adore (Until The End Of Time) (SOTT:SD)

In summary, some segues can not be achieved through streaming services, however the biggest issue is the absence of ‘Rockhard In A Funky Place’.


Overall, it’s possible to listen to all the Dream Factory songs in sequence on streaming services, although versions and segues will differ from the original masters, the biggest change being the song Crystal Ball. When it comes to the Camille and Crystal Ball album, not only will versions and segues differ but the albums would be incomplete due to the absence of Rockhard In A Funky Place.

[Edited 7/10/20 11:26am]

[Edited 7/12/20 9:01am]

Nightmare. This was the first thing I thought when I saw that interview as well, "if you want to listen to Camille as it was originally envisioned, you can do that.”" - no we bloody well cannot!

7" edit of Feel U Up?? Getouttatown, doesn't even exist around here.

Obviously I can just create a mix cd or whatever (before the "I don't stream I own" brigade enter the thread) but it'd still be great to be able to do this.

I was wishing that the original mix of "Sexual Suicide" was on the SOTT deluxe, but maybe it actually fits better on the Parade Deluxe.

Version 2 of Dream Factory if ever released would be in my top five Prince albums above Sign 'O' The Times.

ufoclub said:

I was wishing that the original mix of "Sexual Suicide" was on the SOTT deluxe, but maybe it actually fits better on the Parade Deluxe.

I think that might be why we don't see it on SOTT. Conversely also why we see All My Dreams on SOTT and not held on to for a Parade Deluxe, because maybe they see it fitting better on Dream Factory, which I would agree with despite being from Parade.

.

Not having the full Crystal Ball on SOTT Deluxe is really my only gripe besides the price.

At least most, if not all of those can be remedied by talented fans who can edit and splice together all of these differenct tracks and put together a decent quality fan-made configuration, right?


Between having most of those still-unreelased tracks in decent quality (Crystal Ball no-orchestra for example) and the seques available to crossfade into the official releases on this set. It isn't ideal but at least it could bring us a better quality version of these than we ever had before

[Edited 7/10/20 15:44pm]

How(e) did he do it again?

The difference in masterings track-to-track would hinder his delusions most of all, especially considering he wants us to sequence Crystal Ball brickwalling maximization with the usual 1980s super quiet OG CDs.

ForceofNature said:

Great breakdown.

First off, we don't actually know 'Colors' = 'Interlude'. I only posted that a while back because I noticed they were both 1:01 in length and had guessed (looking at the early leak track list), that the point of the set could be to allow us to complete the 3 unreleased albums.

Second, I'm slight suspicious of comparisons to the 'original' Dream Factory content, as the Thunderball / Moonraker 'original' versions that many reference are actually fan compilations.

Lastly, we need to be careful to reference 'people in the know' and leaked posts, because theyve been proven wrong in the past.

Everyone has good intentions, but it doesn't always lead to the truth.

This discussion reinforces arguments for RSD releases of the various configurations.

djThunderfunk said:

Romeoblu said:

databank said:

Romeoblu said:

I don't get the big fuss about putting these together. Sign is a great album and I love it the way it is. I think it is a better listening experience than Crystal Ball. There is so much overlap I personally will make my own pseudo albums. If you put the 98 Crystal Ball songs from 86 in a playlist they make a great album.

I would say there are s a mythological dimension to our fascination towards DF and CB. As I said in another thread these projects were fantasized about for a decade before Uptown and Nilsen eventually unearthed the tracklists. In the fans'mind, DF was the Revolution masterpiece that never happened (we had no clue there was do much SOTT in it) and CB was P's best record, SOTT, only longer and better. The bootlegs of course gave us music to feed our fantasies. And now, even after 20 years of having known the real tracklists, these projects kept their mythical status. IDK, I might be wrong in my analysis, but that's how it feels to me.

Thanks for this, very interesting! What about the track Train? Wasn't that intended to be on Dream Factory in the July configuration? This is coming on the Sign release and should be included here.

Interesting thread!

.

This impleis that the Estate people should haev included all mentioned songs on the SOTT SDE set plus a nice table showing the order of the songs to play for each configuration.

That would have been a nice archeological feat in this historic music thing we call SOTT SDE.

But of course they did not...

.

Perhaps after APrade SDE we have slightly more complete set of songs/versions?

udo said:

Interesting thread!

.

This impleis that the Estate people should haev included all mentioned songs on the SOTT SDE set plus a nice table showing the order of the songs to play for each configuration.

That would have been a nice archeological feat in this historic music thing we call SOTT SDE.

But of course they did not...

.

Perhaps after APrade SDE we have slightly more complete set of songs/versions?

To be perfectly rigorous, not even this would work because the sequencing of an album includes a certain amount of silence between each track that, unnoticed as it usually is by the listener, plays a very important part in the record's pacing and dynamics. It's bad enough that on LP records later made into CDs the amount of silence between the last track on side 1 and the first on side 2 is probably chosen very arbitrarily by the technician that made the transfer. Unless the original master made by the artist is one sided anyway? Kares would have to tell us about that.

For all those early albums configs Prince made, in case no proper master was kept, the estate needs to check the tape that was made, whatever they can find, and recreate the album based on what is found. Then make it some limited edition RSD release, or sell it on a Prince online store for hardcore fans only.

xemplify08 said:

VaultCurator said:

xemplify08 said:

Thanks for this, very interesting! What about the track Train? Wasn't that intended to be on Dream Factory in the July configuration? This is coming on the Sign release and should be included here.

Hi there. Thanks for pointing this out. I can't believe I missed that. I've just corrected the post. Thanks again