.

[Edited 6/28/20 9:52am]

love2thenines2003 said:

That doesn't sound right. Not saying you're wrong, as per my post to Databank, I have lost touch with the intricacies of the estate/contracts stuff.

But...

The rights to an artists work returns to the artist after 35 years. That was why WB (and Prince) did the 2014 deal (35 years after For You was released). That deal returned the masters to each Prince album to Prince at the 35 year mark and then licensed the, back to WB for the defined period of the 2014 contract.

I cannot understand how any contractual law would mean that vault material would still be owned by WB but the officially released material would no longer be under rights to them (barring the OSTs which we know have a different arrangement but that would not extend to vault tracks as nobody could legally argue if they were part of the the album if not on final configuration).

Neversin said:

Why did you delete that??!?? That was golden insight.

LoveGalore said:

Dammit! What did I miss???

Mindbells9 said:

LoveGalore said:

Why did you delete that??!?? That was golden insight.

Dammit! What did I miss???

There's 4 known version of Rebirth. #1 the full thing, #2 full thing with "Welcome to..." over it, #3 the version circulating...and then another one. Remains to be seen if it's version #1 or #2 on SOTT SDE.

For me at least, it doesn't make any sense that WB will keep the rights to release any vault material after 2020, unless the new contract they signed with Prince in 2014(?) says so. All vault material was Prince's, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to release vault songs in the album Crystall Ball in 1998 on his own.

I don't know the details of his original 1970s contract with WB, but it's the released masters that are usually covered by that contract, vault songs can not even be called "masters" because they weren't part of any album. So, my opinion is that the Estate is the owner of all unreleased stuff and they license the rights to whoever they want, in this case it would be Sony, who will also have the rights to release all non-soundtrack albums.

Mindbells9 said:

We often know that Neversin sightings are very interesting (respect to him) but how do u know in this specific case this is the case?

love2thenines2003 said:

Mindbells9 said:

Dammit! What did I miss???

We often know that Neversin sightings are very interesting (respect to him) but how do u know in this specific case this is the case?

He saw Neversin's message before he deleted it. I read it as well. Once I refreshed the page, it was gone.

Yes, it's the kind of information we need: Neversin listed the 4 versions of ROTF and the differences between them.

[Edited 6/29/20 1:15am]

Mindbells9 said:

LoveGalore said:

Why did you delete that??!?? That was golden insight.

Dammit! What did I miss???

Please tell me someone copied the info, whatever it was.

parker said:

Mindbells9 said:

LoveGalore said: Dammit! What did I miss???

There's 4 known version of Rebirth. #1 the full thing, #2 full thing with "Welcome to..." over it, #3 the version circulating...and then another one. Remains to be seen if it's version #1 or #2 on SOTT SDE.

What that what he posted or does someone have a copy of the post??

olb99 said:

love2thenines2003 said:

Mindbells9 said: We often know that Neversin sightings are very interesting (respect to him) but how do u know in this specific case this is the case?

He saw Neversin's message before he deleted it. I read it as well. Once I refreshed the page, it was gone.

Yes, it's the kind of information we need: Neversin listed the 4 versions of ROTF and the differences between them.

[Edited 6/29/20 1:15am]

Damn! Now that's info we need! Hopefully someone copied it.
from the edit of ihis post it the info was online for 30 minutes.

So, just to sum up Neversin's deleted message:

• we still don't know for sure which version will end up on SOTT SDE
• version #1 = full version without "Welcome to the Crystal Ball" outro
• version #2 = work in progress = version #1 + "Welcome..." outro added to the track
• version #3 = edit of version #1 (without "Welcome..." outro)
• version #4 = version #3 with "Welcome..." outro
• version #4 is the version we've all heard that ended up on "Crystal Ball"
• version #4 is *not* on the "Camille" test pressing
• he thinks either version #1 or #2 will end up on SOTT SDE
• we're still not able to sequence "Crystal Ball", "Camille", and "Dream Factory" from what is (and will be) released
• "Camille" has slightly different mixes of the tracks compared to the released versions

This is what I remember. If I remember incorrectly, then I'm sorry, and I'll let Neversin correct me...

[Edited 6/29/20 1:33am]

olb99 said:

So, just to sum up Neversin's deleted message:

• we still don't know for sure which version will end up on SOTT SDE
• version #1 = full version without "Welcome to the Crystal Ball" outro
• version #2 = work in progress = version #1 + "Welcome..." outro added to the track
• version #3 = edit of version #1 (without "Welcome..." outro)
• version #4 = version #3 with "Welcome..." outro
• version #4 is the version we've all heard that ended up on "Crystal Ball"
• version #4 is *not* on the "Camille" test pressing
• he thinks either version #1 or #2 will end up on SOTT SDE
• we're still not able to sequence "Crystal Ball", "Camille", and "Dream Factory" from what is (and will be) released
• "Camille" has slightly different mixes of the tracks compared to the released versions

This is what I remember. If I remember incorrectly, then I'm sorry, and I'll let Neversin correct me...

[Edited 6/29/20 1:33am]

Wow, thanks!!! That's indeed great info we need.
Now I'm wondering which of these versions is the Camille album version, did he specify that? My guess would be either version #1 or #3.
It's sad that Howe is spreading misinformation about fans being able to create the unreleased albums with the tracks on SOTT SDE.
From what I know the masters of each of these album are all there in the Vault and could be sent to Bernie Grundmann and pressed asap. Easy money if you ask me.

[Edited 6/29/20 2:01am]

JorisE73 said:

olb99 said:

So, just to sum up Neversin's deleted message:

• we still don't know for sure which version will end up on SOTT SDE
• version #1 = full version without "Welcome to the Crystal Ball" outro
• version #2 = work in progress = version #1 + "Welcome..." outro added to the track
• version #3 = edit of version #1 (without "Welcome..." outro)
• version #4 = version #3 with "Welcome..." outro
• version #4 is the version we've all heard that ended up on "Crystal Ball"
• version #4 is *not* on the "Camille" test pressing
• he thinks either version #1 or #2 will end up on SOTT SDE
• we're still not able to sequence "Crystal Ball", "Camille", and "Dream Factory" from what is (and will be) released
• "Camille" has slightly different mixes of the tracks compared to the released versions

This is what I remember. If I remember incorrectly, then I'm sorry, and I'll let Neversin correct me...

[Edited 6/29/20 1:33am]

Wow, thanks!!! That's indeed great info we need.
Now I'm wondering which of these versions is the Camille album version, did he specify that? My guess would be either version #1 or #3.
It's sad that Howe is spreading misinformation about fans being able to create the unreleased albums with the tracks on SOTT SDE.
From what I know the masters of each of these album are all there in the Vault and could be sent to Bernie Grundmann and pressed asap. Easy money if you ask me.

[Edited 6/29/20 2:01am]

Oops, yes, you're right: he did mention that version #1 was the version on "Camille".

olb99 said:

JorisE73 said:

Wow, thanks!!! That's indeed great info we need.
Now I'm wondering which of these versions is the Camille album version, did he specify that? My guess would be either version #1 or #3.
It's sad that Howe is spreading misinformation about fans being able to create the unreleased albums with the tracks on SOTT SDE.
From what I know the masters of each of these album are all there in the Vault and could be sent to Bernie Grundmann and pressed asap. Easy money if you ask me.

[Edited 6/29/20 2:01am]

Oops, yes, you're right: he did mention that version #1 was the version on "Camille".

Great thanks!
Now I'm hoping that version #1 in on SOTT SDE and not version #2.
But, given the estate's track record in releasing 'work-in-progres versions instead of proper finished tracks, I think it's highly likely it could be version #2 on there because they probbaly think it's more 'complete' (like with the verrsion of Nothing Compares 2 U with parts on it that don;t belong there)

Nice info about Rebirth of the Flesh.

Also, there’s meant to be another Michael Howe interview with Matt Everitt, being aired on Shaun Keaveny’s radio show this afternoon on BBC 6 Music.

No details (currently) on the website, but a snippet of it was played during Mary Anne Hobbs show on Friday, followed by playing Witness 4 the Prosecution.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/pro...s/m000kh2h - this link might allow UK listeners to hear it (not sure about rest of the world)

Seems like they held it back for another day.
[Edited 6/29/20 8:17am]

LoveGalore said:

Because it was meant to be an orgnote for someone and since I typed it out on my phone I pressed the wrong button and instead sadly replied in this thread...

Neversin.

Neversin said:

LoveGalore said:

Why did you delete that??!?? That was golden insight.

Because it was meant to be an orgnote for someone and since I typed it out on my phone I pressed the wrong button and instead sadly replied in this thread... Neversin.

Why 'sadly'? Everbody in here wants to hear this kind of stuff.
Please feel free to post any and all info on tracks on the SDE we would love to hear that. It will be a while before Duane Tudahl's book is out so any info until the album and the book comes out is welcome.

solraccat said:

For me at least, it doesn't make any sense that WB will keep the rights to release any vault material after 2020, unless the new contract they signed with Prince in 2014(?) says so. All vault material was Prince's, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to release vault songs in the album Crystall Ball in 1998 on his own.

I don't know the details of his original 1970s contract with WB, but it's the released masters that are usually covered by that contract, vault songs can not even be called "masters" because they weren't part of any album. So, my opinion is that the Estate is the owner of all unreleased stuff and they license the rights to whoever they want, in this case it would be Sony, who will also have the rights to release all non-soundtrack albums.

Prince did whatever he wanted while he was alive. Now that he's dead, everything that wasn't published while he was alive belongs to Warner, at least when he was under contract to them...78-94 and this detail is important...without agreement from Warner or Cooperation...Sony will not be able to release the unreleased stuff recorded during this period!

[Edited 6/29/20 8:38am]

olb99 said:

I'm genuinely sorry about this...

https://youtu.be/09hT9LaOx4M

An interview in which Questlove recounts the story of the original Wally as it was told to him. Story starts at 18:30. Here he says that after the master was wiped he destroyed his demo cassette.

love2thenines2003 said:

solraccat said:

For me at least, it doesn't make any sense that WB will keep the rights to release any vault material after 2020, unless the new contract they signed with Prince in 2014(?) says so. All vault material was Prince's, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to release vault songs in the album Crystall Ball in 1998 on his own.

I don't know the details of his original 1970s contract with WB, but it's the released masters that are usually covered by that contract, vault songs can not even be called "masters" because they weren't part of any album. So, my opinion is that the Estate is the owner of all unreleased stuff and they license the rights to whoever they want, in this case it would be Sony, who will also have the rights to release all non-soundtrack albums.

Prince did whatever he wanted while he was alive. Now that he's dead, everything that wasn't published while he was alive belongs to Warner, at least when he was under contract to them...78-94 and this detail is important...without agreement from Warner or Cooperation...Sony will not be able to release the unreleased stuff recorded during this period!

[Edited 6/29/20 8:38am]

So, you've seen the 2014 deal he made with WB?? You know that deal where he would get all his masters (including the unreleased material)?

love2thenines2003 said:

Can you link or quote a source for this please? As I said above that just doesn't sound right.

That would mean that in 2021 the rights to all of Prince's released material (albums, single and b-sides) would revert to the estate (except the 4 OSTs) but all the unreleased material in the vault recorded between 78-96 would be owned by WB in perpetuity?

How does that square with the 35 years rule? The very reason for the 2014 deal?

olb99 said:

So, just to sum up Neversin's deleted message:

• we still don't know for sure which version will end up on SOTT SDE
• version #1 = full version without "Welcome to the Crystal Ball" outro
• version #2 = work in progress = version #1 + "Welcome..." outro added to the track
• version #3 = edit of version #1 (without "Welcome..." outro)
• version #4 = version #3 with "Welcome..." outro
• version #4 is the version we've all heard that ended up on "Crystal Ball"
• version #4 is *not* on the "Camille" test pressing
• he thinks either version #1 or #2 will end up on SOTT SDE
• we're still not able to sequence "Crystal Ball", "Camille", and "Dream Factory" from what is (and will be) released
• "Camille" has slightly different mixes of the tracks compared to the released versions

This is what I remember. If I remember incorrectly, then I'm sorry, and I'll let Neversin correct me...

[Edited 6/29/20 1:33am]

As I posted in the first SOTT SDE thread, there is one other ROTF version to consider!

The earliest boot version I know of was from the double Camille's Crystal Ball boot in 1988 when it was labelled Souly-A-Colia. I bought it that year.

This version has a short sound (some kind of whistle sound or horn or something) after the "Come To the Crystal Ball" spoken bit. It is NOT part of the segue to Play In the Sunshine. And the sound doesn't match any other Prince song I've ever heard.

And yes, I am very familiar with the other circulating versions.

Here is a snippet of just the ending:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/u657r3dcq3futbf/Rebirth%20Of%20The%20Flesh%20%28Souly-A-Colia%20Bootleg%20Ending%201988%29.aif?dl=0

Now, the question is:
Is this a version of ROTF that continues AFTER the spoken bit?
Or (probably more likely) is this a weird bootlegger mistake/glitch?

I do think that odd little sound does sound Prince-y though - so if it's not from ROTF could be something else - but it's so short.

Let me know what you think. I know some orgers will remember this version.

At least part of the mystery may be solved by the forthcoming Outro version!

VaultCurator said:

I'm always skeptical of how much Q really knows about what prince specifically did or did not do, though this may just be my extremely wishful thinking

There is not a line where u have the clue to Sony releasing what they want from the back catalogue except for Parade, PR , GB... I got some info about someone who knows the details about the different deals....so next year u will see....if iam wrong or something else!

love2thenines2003 said:

I think I get what you are saying. Not doubting you or that you have a source but from a legal/contract law standpoint WB having perpetual rights to vault tracks while losing the licensed rights to all but the OSTs just doesn't stack up. If that IS the case then whoever sorted that contract was astounding (from WB POV) and a crook (from Prince and his estates POV).

Now I could understand if the Sony deal ONLY covered released material except OSTs and didn't cover vault/unreleased material but if so it doesn't then automatically follow that Warners do have rights over that material. It would make more sense that the estate retain those rights and can license them to whoever they choose - ergo OST related vault material on Warner releases and the rest on Sony releases (if big IF both record companies were prepared to pay).

And again what about the 35 year rule?

And why would the 2014 Warner deal have been for a limited period and expire in 2021? Wouldn't that deal have also covered unreleased material? I cannot see the logic of Prince signing a deal with Warner to cover 2014-2020 for released material and another deal for unreleased material for perpetuity?

Also just saying that in this thread...

https://prince.org/msg/7/460745?&pg=4

About halfway down page 4 you say that Parade Super Deluxe was the next release in 2020 "from those in the know" so your sources are perhaps not as reliable as you think/hope?

[Edited 6/29/20 11:24am]
[Edited 6/29/20 11:37am]

love2thenines2003 said:

There is not a line where u have the clue to Sony releasing what they want from the back catalogue except for Parade, PR , GB... I got some info about someone who knows the details about the different deals....so next year u will see....if iam wrong or something else!

Well thank you for at long last explaining what your source is. Next time please begin with this, it would save everyone a great amount of time arguing

As with others I am perplexed by this information as I don't see the logic in it, and as with others I would have simply assumed that in 2021 the estate gets the distribution rights to WB era vault material as well as the rest, to licence to whomever they pleased, but who knows what sort of bizarre arrangement Prince had to make with WB in order to get his catalogue back in 2014. I must admit, for example, that I didn't originally expect WB to keep the distribution rights to the OSTs undefinitely, and that I also expected Prince to put his hands back on the WB-owned side projects while he did not.

So I'm going to wait until we have an official statement from the estate next year or so, but I have no reason to call you or your source liars either, so I'm gonna give you guys the benefit of doubt and we'll see what happens

glamlife2 said:

olb99 said:

So, just to sum up Neversin's deleted message:

• we still don't know for sure which version will end up on SOTT SDE
• version #1 = full version without "Welcome to the Crystal Ball" outro
• version #2 = work in progress = version #1 + "Welcome..." outro added to the track
• version #3 = edit of version #1 (without "Welcome..." outro)
• version #4 = version #3 with "Welcome..." outro
• version #4 is the version we've all heard that ended up on "Crystal Ball"
• version #4 is *not* on the "Camille" test pressing
• he thinks either version #1 or #2 will end up on SOTT SDE
• we're still not able to sequence "Crystal Ball", "Camille", and "Dream Factory" from what is (and will be) released
• "Camille" has slightly different mixes of the tracks compared to the released versions

This is what I remember. If I remember incorrectly, then I'm sorry, and I'll let Neversin correct me...

[Edited 6/29/20 1:33am]

As I posted in the first SOTT SDE thread, there is one other ROTF version to consider!

The earliest boot version I know of was from the double Camille's Crystal Ball boot in 1988 when it was labelled Souly-A-Colia. I bought it that year.

This version has a short sound (some kind of whistle sound or horn or something) after the "Come To the Crystal Ball" spoken bit. It is NOT part of the segue to Play In the Sunshine. And the sound doesn't match any other Prince song I've ever heard.

And yes, I am very familiar with the other circulating versions.

Here is a snippet of just the ending:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/u657r3dcq3futbf/Rebirth%20Of%20The%20Flesh%20%28Souly-A-Colia%20Bootleg%20Ending%201988%29.aif?dl=0

Now, the question is:
Is this a version of ROTF that continues AFTER the spoken bit?
Or (probably more likely) is this a weird bootlegger mistake/glitch?

I do think that odd little sound does sound Prince-y though - so if it's not from ROTF could be something else - but it's so short.

Let me know what you think. I know some orgers will remember this version.

At least part of the mystery may be solved by the forthcoming Outro version!

It sounds like a glitch to me.

LoveGalore said:

VaultCurator said:

I'm genuinely sorry about this... https://youtu.be/09hT9LaOx4M An interview in which Questlove recounts the story of the original Wally as it was told to him. Story starts at 18:30. Here he says that after the master was wiped he destroyed his demo cassette.

I'm always skeptical of how much Q really knows about what prince specifically did or did not do, though this may just be my extremely wishful thinking

Thanks for the link, VaultCurator!

So we have one interview with Questlove from 2013 (?) where he says the "demo tape" was erased/destroyed and one interview with Susan Rogers from late 2016-early 2017 where she mentions that a "cassette tape" was made, that the multitrack was erased, but she doesn't mention what happened to that cassette tape.

So I guess we still don't really know what happened. Questlove could only know what he knows from Susan, right?

solraccat said:

For me at least, it doesn't make any sense that WB will keep the rights to release any vault material after 2020, unless the new contract they signed with Prince in 2014(?) says so. All vault material was Prince's, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to release vault songs in the album Crystall Ball in 1998 on his own.

I don't know the details of his original 1970s contract with WB, but it's the released masters that are usually covered by that contract, vault songs can not even be called "masters" because they weren't part of any album. So, my opinion is that the Estate is the owner of all unreleased stuff and they license the rights to whoever they want, in this case it would be Sony, who will also have the rights to release all non-soundtrack albums.

To be fair, here's what we (think) we know so far:

- As far as I've heard many recording contracts cover anything the artist records while under contract, studio or live.

- Regarding Prince, it was long thought he could do as he pleased with the vault and that WB held the rights to the released material only. The reason why this was believed is that, between 1998 and 2001, Prince released a great amount of previously unreleased WB-era material, both studio and live, on CB, Rave then NPGMC.

- Then what happened is that at some point in the mid-2000's, Alan Leeds gave an interview (to HQ IIRC) where he explained that to release any live material recorded during teh WB years, Prince was contractually obliged to find an arrangement with WB. If he had to do so with live recordings, it was fair to assume it was the same with studio recordings. It was, of course, possible that Alan Leeds was mistaken, but arguably Alan Leeds is usually a reliable source when it comes to such things.

- Then, after that, the lot of us realized that, as I said, between 1998 and 2001 Prince demonstrated a clear desire to open the gates to the vault, with the aforementioned projects as well as by announcing later shelved projects such as RG, CB2 and the sampler set. Then, suddenly, in 2002, Prince closed the door to the vault and never, ever, released a single note of WB era material in any format whatsoever. We simply assumed it was a change of mind in a typical Prince fashion, but...

- We also remembered that he didn't seem to care much about contractual obligations anyway, because CB contains at least 2 tracks that were already released on WB records, thus undeniably owned by them (Good Love, Tell Me How U Wanna Be Done), Interactive that was (at least according to the copyright on the CD-Rom) also owned by WB, and a bunch of remixes from Come and TGE that certainly were in a grey area (we didn't know at the time that P had gotten the right to TGE back). He also didn't hesitate to release a whole lot of WB owned material on the NPG Ahdio shows and, more blantantly, full files for Horny Pony and Thieves Extended, that were undeniably WB property.

- So from this point onwards it's all pure speculation, but this led some of us to wonder if it's not possible that WB tolerated Prince's little games with "their" material up to a certain point, because they'd had enough bad publicity with P in 93-96 and didn't want another public "free the slave" war, then at some point saw that he was pushing it a little too far and sent him a couple of cease and desists (possibly about the CB2 announcement, and/or later with NPGMC releasing WB songs for download). This would explain why Prince suddenly abruptly, changed his mind about releasing vault material.

So as you can see there is very little we know for sure. But, at least until some other source contradict this, we can fairly assume Alan Leeds can be trusted with WB owning vault material from 77-96. Now this tells us nothing about what was negociated in 2014.