Hi,

.

Something I been wondering for a while: on Originals and 1999 Deluxe, the songs' mixes only existed on regular cassettes, and had to be recreated by Niko Bolas. This was done with much, debatable artistic license on Originals and, apparently, much more faithfully on 1999 Deluxe (possibly because some of us made a fuss about Originals here on the Org).

.

I can only hope that these cassettes were archived properly, because it'd love to see these original mixes released one day for reference. The estate released P&AM83, as well as the entirety of PR Deluxe's outtakes and Bold Generation from cassettes, so the notion isn't as foolish as it sounds, and if they ever one day set-up some kind of online store or service, they could easily capitalize on releasing both clean modern mixes for audiophiles and the original cassette mixes for hardcore fans.

.

Anyway, I guess no matter how hard Mr. Bolas or anyone tries, modern mixes can never be exactly what the original mixes were. Ideally, using genuine mixes made by P's engineers at the time is the best option if sound quality allows it. And it appears that from a certain point onwards, this is the case (which, BTW, saves costs for the estate).

.

Indeed, Love Thy Will Be Done is the only mix that wasn't made posthumously, because, as reported back then, the "half-inch 2-track tape" featuring Michael Kopplemann's original mix was usable.

.

So here's my question for you engineers here: is it known exactly from which point onward most, if not all Prince mixes were saved on a format that can be used as such for release instead of cassettes? I'd assume somewhere between 1988 and 1990, but IDK.

.

Thx for your help

[Edited 6/12/20 4:39am]

databank said:

Hi,

.

Something I been wondering for a while: on Originals and 1999 Deluxe, the songs' mixes only existed on regular cassettes, and had to be recreated by Niko Bolas. This was done with much, debatable artistic license on Originals and, apparently, much more faithfully on 1999 Deluxe (possibly because some of us made a fuss about Originals here on the Org).

.

I can only hope that these cassettes were archived properly, because it'd love to see these original mixes released one day for reference. The estate released P&AM83, as well as the entirety of PR Deluxe's outtakes and Bold Generation from cassettes, so the notion isn't as foolish as it sounds, and if they ever one day set-up some kind of online store or service, they could easily capitalize on releasing both clean modern mixes for audiophiles and the original cassette mixes for hardcore fans.

.

Anyway, I guess no matter how hard Mr. Bolas or anyone tries, modern mixes can never be exactly what the original mixes were. Ideally, using genuine mixes made by P's engineers at the time is the best option if sound quality allows it. And it appears that from a certain point onwards, this is the case (which, BTW, saves costs for the estate).

.

Indeed, Love Thy Will Be Done is the only mix that wasn't made posthumously, because, as reported back then, the "half-inch 2-track tape" featuring Michael Kopplemann's original mix was usable.

.

So here's my question for you engineers here: is it known exactly from which point onward most, if not all Prince mixes were saved on a format that can be used as such for release instead of cassettes? I'd assume somewhere between 1988 and 1990, but IDK.

.

Thx for your help

[Edited 6/12/20 4:39am]

.
I don't think there is such a cut-off point. The open-reel tape format pre-existed long before P was born. It really was just a question of whether he had the patience and interest to create a professionally taped mix of a song or not.

.
Frankly I'm still amazed that he would ever opt to mix directly to compact cassette instead of running a proper tape reel to record the mix – he could certainly afford the price difference of the tapes – and I still have doubts whether Mike Howe and the others involved are fully transparent in regards to these technical details. I suspect that some songs they claim to only have a cassette mix of do exist on 1/2" tape too, perhaps they just haven't been able to find them yet.
Either way, sadly it's obvious that they are NOT transferring everything – at Iron Mountain's prices that would make the Estate go bankrupt in no time, I'm afraid.

whomever is mixing these likes the bass up higher than prince would put in the mix .. the less they tinker the better

Kares said:

Frankly I'm still amazed that he would ever opt to mix directly to compact cassette instead of running a proper tape reel to record the mix – he could certainly afford the price difference of the tapes – and I still have doubts whether Mike Howe and the others involved are fully transparent in regards to these technical details. I suspect that some songs they claim to only have a cassette mix of do exist on 1/2" tape too, perhaps they just haven't been able to find them yet.

.

That's my thought as well. Why mix to cassette, causing the need to re-create that mix when you include the song on an album? If you're spending untold amounts of time in Sunset Sound, why suddenly become frugal when it comes to tape?

BartVanHemelen said:

Kares said:

Frankly I'm still amazed that he would ever opt to mix directly to compact cassette instead of running a proper tape reel to record the mix – he could certainly afford the price difference of the tapes – and I still have doubts whether Mike Howe and the others involved are fully transparent in regards to these technical details. I suspect that some songs they claim to only have a cassette mix of do exist on 1/2" tape too, perhaps they just haven't been able to find them yet.

.

That's my thought as well. Why mix to cassette, causing the need to re-create that mix when you include the song on an album? If you're spending untold amounts of time in Sunset Sound, why suddenly become frugal when it comes to tape?

.

It just doesn't make sense at all, for several reasons:
They weren't using board automation even when the technology was already there, because he was too impatient for that. He preferred hands-on, live mixing. So he supposedly just does a quick mix to compact cassette that he can listen to in the car. If he likes the mix as it is, there's no way they can recreate it exactly the next day – they can copy all the outboard gear settings of course, but they can't match the fader movements 100%. So even if the mix turned out great for the first time, it'll have to be recreated for professional use, and that means extra time, additional studio costs, engineering costs and additional tape costs.
If he wants to hand out cassette copies for band members to learn the songs, copying from compact cassette (especially after it has been abused by a car stereo) will give even worse results. So I'm sorry, but I have a hard time accepting that he regularily mixed directly to compact cassette. I understand he was impatient, but I don't think saving 5-10 minutes could've been worth it for him to be putting up with all the extra costs and hassle described above.

It doesn't make sense. Some of those Originals were released, and exist in higher quality, and they obviously had flexibility in the studio to do it, to change those tracks, and to take Prince's voice out or bury it in the backing vocals or get some kind of separation so the new vocals didn't sound like karaoke.

Even with something like Glamorous Life which is pretty identical and she was probably whisper singing, right over a completed track, they still also did 12" versions and stuff. And the master for Sheila's record can't be a cassette, the label wouldn't have allowed it.

I think they're doing it this way to cut corners and because the real tapes aren't located or logged yet.

I think the original mixes are what we've heard on bootlegs, right?

lavendardrummachine said:

It doesn't make sense. Some of those Originals were released, and exist in higher quality, and they obviously had flexibility in the studio to do it, to change those tracks, and to take Prince's voice out or bury it in the backing vocals or get some kind of separation so the new vocals didn't sound like karaoke.

Even with something like Glamorous Life which is pretty identical and she was probably whisper singing, right over a completed track, they still also did 12" versions and stuff. And the master for Sheila's record can't be a cassette, the label wouldn't have allowed it.

I think they're doing it this way to cut corners and because the real tapes aren't located or logged yet.

I think the original mixes are what we've heard on bootlegs, right?

.
I'm afraid you're mistaking multitrack tapes with mixdown tapes – we were talking about the latter. Of course most multitracks still exist and they can be used to create new mixes. And of course released albums have professional stereo master tapes.

.
What we know from bootlegs are in many cases draft mixes. They can be considered "original" but that doesn't necessarily mean Prince would've released them in that form.
.

Kares said:

. Of course most multitracks still exist and they can be used to create new mixes. And of course released albums have professional stereo master tapes.

.

Then why didn't they do that?

They clearly worked off the cassettes, and not just as reference points to rebuild the mixes (which wouldn't be abnormal, using the vinyl as a model is an industry standard).

We have a unique idea how the Originals were created, and it would require that he had more than a cassette mixdown.

lavendardrummachine said:

Kares said:

. Of course most multitracks still exist and they can be used to create new mixes. And of course released albums have professional stereo master tapes.

.

Then why didn't they do that?

They clearly worked off the cassettes, and not just as reference points to rebuild the mixes (which wouldn't be abnormal, using the vinyl as a model is an industry standard).

We have a unique idea how the Originals were created, and it would require that he had more than a cassette mixdown.

.

The official story is that for most of Originals they've recreated the mixes using the multitracks as sources and using the cassette mixes as references because allegedly there aren't any professional (1/2") mixdown tapes for those songs.

.

And 'Wouldn't You Love To Love Me' was transferred from cassette due to the lack of a multitrack.

Kares said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

That's my thought as well. Why mix to cassette, causing the need to re-create that mix when you include the song on an album? If you're spending untold amounts of time in Sunset Sound, why suddenly become frugal when it comes to tape?

.

It just doesn't make sense at all, for several reasons:
They weren't using board automation even when the technology was already there, because he was too impatient for that. He preferred hands-on, live mixing. So he supposedly just does a quick mix to compact cassette that he can listen to in the car. If he likes the mix as it is, there's no way they can recreate it exactly the next day – they can copy all the outboard gear settings of course, but they can't match the fader movements 100%. So even if the mix turned out great for the first time, it'll have to be recreated for professional use, and that means extra time, additional studio costs, engineering costs and additional tape costs.
If he wants to hand out cassette copies for band members to learn the songs, copying from compact cassette (especially after it has been abused by a car stereo) will give even worse results. So I'm sorry, but I have a hard time accepting that he regularily mixed directly to compact cassette. I understand he was impatient, but I don't think saving 5-10 minutes could've been worth it for him to be putting up with all the extra costs and hassle described above.

Thx Kares and Bart for your replies.

.

Now that I understand the format thing better, I must admit I find it as puzzling as you do. Why oh why indeed??

.

Now I find it equally hard to believe that Michael Howe would be able to locate multitracks and cassettes for each track they released, but wouldn't be able to locate 1/2'' tapes, and instead spend big bucks on hiring a top industry engineer to painstakefully remix everything.

.

Also, doesnt Duane keep saying mixes were put down to cassette in his book?

.

Another odd thing is that in his interview with Militant, HM Buff explains that he had to go to the vault and mix the tracks on Crystal Ball. Did he mean only the 80's tracks, were there 1/2'' mixes for the Come/Gold era tracks already ready for use? He didn't say and it'd be interesting to know. But that made me realized that then, the old bootlegs we had of some of the 80's tracks are actually, technically different mixes than the ones on CB!! It'd be interesting for someone with a really good ear like you, Kares, to compare the bootleg and CB mixes of, say, Sexual Suicide or Dream Factory with the previously circulating bootlegs, and tell us if you can spot a different mix.

.

But Buff's claims seem to corroborate the fact that the 80's mixes (at least) were not available either. Now I find it hard to believe that these early DF, Camille and Crystal Ball configs would only exist on cassette.

Typically the mixes on the Japanese CB86 leak seem to be exactly the same as the ones on SOTT, aren't they? It would actually be interesting to compare:

- The cassette mixes on old bootlegs with the CB98 tracks;

- The CB86 mixes with the SOTT ones;

- The CB86 CB (the track) with the CB98 CB (the track).

I could give it a shot but I think I simply don't have the ears to be able to come-up with anything conclusive.

Kares, if you ever get around trying this, please let us know, it could be very revealing

databank said:

Kares said:

.

It just doesn't make sense at all, for several reasons:
They weren't using board automation even when the technology was already there, because he was too impatient for that. He preferred hands-on, live mixing. So he supposedly just does a quick mix to compact cassette that he can listen to in the car. If he likes the mix as it is, there's no way they can recreate it exactly the next day – they can copy all the outboard gear settings of course, but they can't match the fader movements 100%. So even if the mix turned out great for the first time, it'll have to be recreated for professional use, and that means extra time, additional studio costs, engineering costs and additional tape costs.
If he wants to hand out cassette copies for band members to learn the songs, copying from compact cassette (especially after it has been abused by a car stereo) will give even worse results. So I'm sorry, but I have a hard time accepting that he regularily mixed directly to compact cassette. I understand he was impatient, but I don't think saving 5-10 minutes could've been worth it for him to be putting up with all the extra costs and hassle described above.

Thx Kares and Bart for your replies.

.

Now that I understand the format thing better, I must admit I find it as puzzling as you do. Why oh why indeed??

.

Now I find it equally hard to believe that Michael Howe would be able to locate multitracks and cassettes for each track they released, but wouldn't be able to locate 1/2'' tapes, and instead spend big bucks on hiring a top industry engineer to painstakefully remix everything.

.

Also, doesnt Duane keep saying mixes were put down to cassette in his book?

.

Another odd thing is that in his interview with Militant, HM Buff explains that he had to go to the vault and mix the tracks on Crystal Ball. Did he mean only the 80's tracks, were there 1/2'' mixes for the Come/Gold era tracks already ready for use? He didn't say and it'd be interesting to know. But that made me realized that then, the old bootlegs we had of some of the 80's tracks are actually, technically different mixes than the ones on CB!! It'd be interesting for someone with a really good ear like you, Kares, to compare the bootleg and CB mixes of, say, Sexual Suicide or Dream Factory with the previously circulating bootlegs, and tell us if you can spot a different mix.

.

But Buff's claims seem to corroborate the fact that the 80's mixes (at least) were not available either. Now I find it hard to believe that these early DF, Camille and Crystal Ball configs would only exist on cassette.

Typically the mixes on the Japanese CB86 leak seem to be exactly the same as the ones on SOTT, aren't they? It would actually be interesting to compare:

- The cassette mixes on old bootlegs with the CB98 tracks;

- The CB86 mixes with the SOTT ones;

- The CB86 CB (the track) with the CB98 CB (the track).

I could give it a shot but I think I simply don't have the ears to be able to come-up with anything conclusive.

Kares, if you ever get around trying this, please let us know, it could be very revealing

.

Whenever Duane's book states that a session ended by "a mix was created and a cassette was made" I interpret it as they created a mix onto professional 1/2" tape and that mixdown tape was copied onto a compact cassette, because that would be the normal way of doing things. Ending up with a professional mixdown tape that can be released and a cassette copy you can listen to in the car or share it with a friend.
.
Opting to skipping the professional mixdown tape and mixing directly to compact cassette is strange to me – unless you know for sure that is just a draft because you'll either continue to work on the multitrack (by adding horns or strings) or will spend a lot more time on mixing it later. It can happen, but I find it unlikely that this would be anyone's modus operandi. Especially when P was working on material he intended to release as soon as possible.
.
Regarding the H.M. Buff interview: perhaps him and P decided to create new mixes even if there were professional mixdown tapes available, in order to have consistency to the different tracks on CB98. But I'm just guessing. I'll try to ask him.
.
Probably many of the bootlegs we know are draft mixes (except for some of the already assembled and mastered unreleased albums, such as DF), originating from work-in-progress cassettes, while others can be considered final, such as copies submitted to Warners.
.
I'll try to check out some of the examples you mention, but what is the "Japanese CB86 leak" leak you're referring to? Do I have that? I'm not sure...
.

[Edited 6/13/20 7:31am]

Kares said:

databank said:

Thx Kares and Bart for your replies.

.

Now that I understand the format thing better, I must admit I find it as puzzling as you do. Why oh why indeed??

.

Now I find it equally hard to believe that Michael Howe would be able to locate multitracks and cassettes for each track they released, but wouldn't be able to locate 1/2'' tapes, and instead spend big bucks on hiring a top industry engineer to painstakefully remix everything.

.

Also, doesnt Duane keep saying mixes were put down to cassette in his book?

.

Another odd thing is that in his interview with Militant, HM Buff explains that he had to go to the vault and mix the tracks on Crystal Ball. Did he mean only the 80's tracks, were there 1/2'' mixes for the Come/Gold era tracks already ready for use? He didn't say and it'd be interesting to know. But that made me realized that then, the old bootlegs we had of some of the 80's tracks are actually, technically different mixes than the ones on CB!! It'd be interesting for someone with a really good ear like you, Kares, to compare the bootleg and CB mixes of, say, Sexual Suicide or Dream Factory with the previously circulating bootlegs, and tell us if you can spot a different mix.

.

But Buff's claims seem to corroborate the fact that the 80's mixes (at least) were not available either. Now I find it hard to believe that these early DF, Camille and Crystal Ball configs would only exist on cassette.

Typically the mixes on the Japanese CB86 leak seem to be exactly the same as the ones on SOTT, aren't they? It would actually be interesting to compare:

- The cassette mixes on old bootlegs with the CB98 tracks;

- The CB86 mixes with the SOTT ones;

- The CB86 CB (the track) with the CB98 CB (the track).

I could give it a shot but I think I simply don't have the ears to be able to come-up with anything conclusive.

Kares, if you ever get around trying this, please let us know, it could be very revealing

.

Whenever Duane's book states that a session ended by "a mix was created and a cassette was made" I interpret it as they created a mix onto professional 1/2" tape and that mixdown tape was copied onto a compact cassette, because that would be the normal way of doing things. Ending up with a professional mixdown tape that can be released and a cassette copy you can listen to in the car or share it with a friend.
.
Opting to skipping the professional mixdown tape and mixing directly to compact cassette is strange to me – unless you know for sure that is just a draft because you'll either continue to work on the multitrack (by adding horns or strings) or will spend a lot more time on mixing it later. It can happen, but I find it unlikely that this would be anyone's modus operandi. Especially when P was working on material he intended to release as soon as possible.
.
Regarding the H.M. Buff interview: perhaps him and P decided to create new mixes even if there were professional mixdown tapes available, in order to have consistency to the different tracks on CB98. But I'm just guessing. I'll try to ask him.
.
Probably many of the bootlegs we know are draft mixes (except for some of the already assembled and mastered unreleased albums, such as DF), originating from work-in-progress cassettes, while others can be considered final, such as copies submitted to Warners.
.
I'll try to check out some of the examples you mention, but what is the "Japanese CB86 leak" leak you're referring to? Do I have that? I'm not sure...
.

[Edited 6/13/20 7:31am]

Thx for your reply. It'd be awesome if u can ask Buff about this.

Thx also for checking the examples I've mentioned. The CB leak is this: https://www.discogs.com/P...se/6720328, if you don't have a copy just tell me. It's said to be from a real cassette with a config, not some fans reconstruction. It sure sounds like it's genuine. AFAIK there is a genuine DF#3 config in circulation among traders, but those that are widely circulating are reconstructions from other bootlegs and official material, so any DF you have should be treated as "old bootlegs" not a genuine config.

I'd be VERY interested to know which differences you can catch between these different versions of tracks I hope you can find some time to try it

Kares said:

> because allegedly there aren't any professional (1/2") mixdown tapes for those songs.

.

Right, but I don't think that's possible nor do I buy that they went into the multitracks based on the sound quality of the Originals. They sound exactly like audio that's tried to filter out heavy tape hiss to me, and it strikes me more like a way to avoid a complicated project sorting out a puzzle of reference tracks, partial mixdowns, figuring out what he kept, etc. There are tracks that should sound as good as if you remastered Sheila e., The Time, or The Bangles, and they don't. They also don't sound like a replicated mix.

lavendardrummachine said:

Kares said:

> because allegedly there aren't any professional (1/2") mixdown tapes for those songs.

.

Right, but I don't think that's possible nor do I buy that they went into the multitracks based on the sound quality of the Originals. They sound exactly like audio that's tried to filter out heavy tape hiss to me, and it strikes me more like a way to avoid a complicated project sorting out a puzzle of reference tracks, partial mixdowns, figuring out what he kept, etc. There are tracks that should sound as good as if you remastered Sheila e., The Time, or The Bangles, and they don't. They also don't sound like a replicated mix.

.
While I think the 'Originals' mixes could've been created with far more respect to the sound of Prince's early releases, in my opinion they do originate from the multitracks (with the exception of WYLTLM) and it's proven by the fact of the different effects you can hear on certain instruments on 'Originals'.
.
(The outtakes of 'Purple Rain Deluxe', however, were sourced from cassette copies and do exhibit the side-effects of noise-reduction you are describing.)

Kares said:

lavendardrummachine said:

Right, but I don't think that's possible nor do I buy that they went into the multitracks based on the sound quality of the Originals. They sound exactly like audio that's tried to filter out heavy tape hiss to me, and it strikes me more like a way to avoid a complicated project sorting out a puzzle of reference tracks, partial mixdowns, figuring out what he kept, etc. There are tracks that should sound as good as if you remastered Sheila e., The Time, or The Bangles, and they don't. They also don't sound like a replicated mix.

.
While I think the 'Originals' mixes could've been created with far more respect to the sound of Prince's early releases, in my opinion they do originate from the multitracks (with the exception of WYLTLM) and it's proven by the fact of the different effects you can hear on certain instruments on 'Originals'.
.
(The outtakes of 'Purple Rain Deluxe', however, were sourced from cassette copies and do exhibit the side-effects of noise-reduction you are describing.)

That, and the fact that some mixes clearly are mash-ups of various versions that do not reflect any version ever mixed by Prince at any given time. Besides, Niko Bolas gave a long interview to the Peach and Black podcast where he explained the (erratic) manner in which he and Michael Howe worked on this project. There is no doubt about these songs being mixed from the multitracks, and it's precisely the reason why the whole project ended-up being the disaster it was. Thanks God it seems they renounced this revisionnist approach with 1999 Deluxe, but Bolas said he mixed many more tracks for the Originals projects, so unless he gets back to work and "fixes" the tracks, future volumes will be as "fake" as vol. 1.

BartVanHemelen said:

Kares said:

Frankly I'm still amazed that he would ever opt to mix directly to compact cassette instead of running a proper tape reel to record the mix – he could certainly afford the price difference of the tapes – and I still have doubts whether Mike Howe and the others involved are fully transparent in regards to these technical details. I suspect that some songs they claim to only have a cassette mix of do exist on 1/2" tape too, perhaps they just haven't been able to find them yet.

.

That's my thought as well. Why mix to cassette, causing the need to re-create that mix when you include the song on an album? If you're spending untold amounts of time in Sunset Sound, why suddenly become frugal when it comes to tape?

These were probably not considered proper mixdowns, but more portable iterations of the evolving multitrack song in the works, for mulling over in the car, or at home, or for friend's reactions.

Later I bet he did this with CDrs and DATs

Prince seemed to be in the habit of recording mutliple tracks of ideas to (over)layer a song, and then pare it back. This creation of rough cassette mixdowns was probably a way to quickly take the idea and just check it out in context of different listening situations. I'm guessing they weren't mastered or "sweetened" in any way either.

Kares said:

lavendardrummachine said:

Right, but I don't think that's possible nor do I buy that they went into the multitracks based on the sound quality of the Originals. They sound exactly like audio that's tried to filter out heavy tape hiss to me, and it strikes me more like a way to avoid a complicated project sorting out a puzzle of reference tracks, partial mixdowns, figuring out what he kept, etc. There are tracks that should sound as good as if you remastered Sheila e., The Time, or The Bangles, and they don't. They also don't sound like a replicated mix.

.
While I think the 'Originals' mixes could've been created with far more respect to the sound of Prince's early releases, in my opinion they do originate from the multitracks (with the exception of WYLTLM) and it's proven by the fact of the different effects you can hear on certain instruments on 'Originals'.
.
(The outtakes of 'Purple Rain Deluxe', however, were sourced from cassette copies and do exhibit the side-effects of noise-reduction you are describing.)

.

And "Love... Thy Will Be Done" was the Prince mix, so supposedly from an actual mixdown.

PurpleMusic7689 said:

By 1987, Prince had Paisley Park

.

PP opened on 11 September 1987.

This does seem odd. But Prince did a lot of odd things.


Plus, one recurring theme that each of his engineers hits on is that Prince was notoriously not a perfectionist. He took short cuts in the studio all the time.

my guess would be that prince only made masters when he felt the song was close to completion ... the audio cassette could have a rough mix or just a mix with all his overdubs up so he could hear what he laid down and decide what to keep .. the originals tunes were likely songs he wasn't finished with or happy with enough to do a master mix and that is why the rough cassettes were made to share with other artists with guide vocals that prince likely never intended for public consumption .. i would imagine if a song was hot right off the press he might make a master .. but if he was still feeling it needed more overdubs or wasnt quite feeling the take or performance it might never make it to the master mix phase .. consicer also that he may do several takes of a song and take home a rough tape to decide which "take" was worth finishing .. plus it was the 80s and cassettes were super convenient

databank said:

Kares said:

.

It just doesn't make sense at all, for several reasons:
They weren't using board automation even when the technology was already there, because he was too impatient for that. He preferred hands-on, live mixing. So he supposedly just does a quick mix to compact cassette that he can listen to in the car. If he likes the mix as it is, there's no way they can recreate it exactly the next day – they can copy all the outboard gear settings of course, but they can't match the fader movements 100%. So even if the mix turned out great for the first time, it'll have to be recreated for professional use, and that means extra time, additional studio costs, engineering costs and additional tape costs.
If he wants to hand out cassette copies for band members to learn the songs, copying from compact cassette (especially after it has been abused by a car stereo) will give even worse results. So I'm sorry, but I have a hard time accepting that he regularily mixed directly to compact cassette. I understand he was impatient, but I don't think saving 5-10 minutes could've been worth it for him to be putting up with all the extra costs and hassle described above.

Thx Kares and Bart for your replies.

.

Now that I understand the format thing better, I must admit I find it as puzzling as you do. Why oh why indeed??

.

Now I find it equally hard to believe that Michael Howe would be able to locate multitracks and cassettes for each track they released, but wouldn't be able to locate 1/2'' tapes, and instead spend big bucks on hiring a top industry engineer to painstakefully remix everything.

.

Also, doesnt Duane keep saying mixes were put down to cassette in his book?

.

Another odd thing is that in his interview with Militant, HM Buff explains that he had to go to the vault and mix the tracks on Crystal Ball. Did he mean only the 80's tracks, were there 1/2'' mixes for the Come/Gold era tracks already ready for use? He didn't say and it'd be interesting to know. But that made me realized that then, the old bootlegs we had of some of the 80's tracks are actually, technically different mixes than the ones on CB!! It'd be interesting for someone with a really good ear like you, Kares, to compare the bootleg and CB mixes of, say, Sexual Suicide or Dream Factory with the previously circulating bootlegs, and tell us if you can spot a different mix.

.

But Buff's claims seem to corroborate the fact that the 80's mixes (at least) were not available either. Now I find it hard to believe that these early DF, Camille and Crystal Ball configs would only exist on cassette.

Typically the mixes on the Japanese CB86 leak seem to be exactly the same as the ones on SOTT, aren't they? It would actually be interesting to compare:

- The cassette mixes on old bootlegs with the CB98 tracks;

- The CB86 mixes with the SOTT ones;

- The CB86 CB (the track) with the CB98 CB (the track).

I could give it a shot but I think I simply don't have the ears to be able to come-up with anything conclusive.

Kares, if you ever get around trying this, please let us know, it could be very revealing

It's funny you mention Sexual Suicide because on the original bootleg that I got, there was only one Prince voice singing everything on the bootleg song. On the official Crystal Ball 1997 release, Prince doubled up his voice on the released version of Sexual Suicide, if I remember correctly.

PurpleMusic7689 said:

As Kares pointed out, it's not so time-dependent as much as it's just dependent on storage conditions and really, the playing conditions. Prince would make his mixes to cassettes depending on what their intentions were and who his engineer was at the time and what they could do. For example, not a lot of the Peggy McCreary-recorded material was initially mixed to any 1/4" or 1/2" tape unless it was something really good or Prince himself wanted to spend a lot of time mixing it for something and didn't NEED to hear it in his pumping stereo system in his Camaro. IMO, her mixes are great, and if I had to guess, that's probably due to the amount of time she had to spend on any mix she'd make to pass her own sort of "quality-control" (even though Prince didn't like her mixes). Now, in the case of someone like Susan Rogers and who was surrounding Prince at the time of her employment, it's quite simple to figure out why so much of the stuff from her time is on professional mixdown tape... Where and who it was going to. From what I've seen and can personally deduct myself, a lot of of the one-off protege tracks he made with her are on professional tape. Not so much Sheila E. but say "Neon Telephone". Another thing is his consideration for the tracks recorded during her employment. He considered probably 75% of their output for a release. Everything from "The Flesh" to alt. mixes of the "Around The World In A Day" album that have yet to surface, to even the soon-to-be-released majority of "Dream Factory" and "Crystal Ball" tracks. To more generally answer your question, "Sign Of The Times Super Deluxe" should see a overwhelming amount of original mixes compared to "1999 Super Deluxe" plainly because a lot of it was considered for release multiple times over to the point of tapes being sent to Bernie Grundman for mastering. By 1987, Prince had Paisley Park and it's pretty much smooth sailing for original mixes from there forward whether it be half-inch, DAT, CD, or the occasional 1/4" tape... Give it time and the original mixes of stuff like the 1982 "Yah You Know" will get released and the life will be brought back into them instead of being sucked out by Reverbolas.

I really hope you're right

I'm a little confused about the part where you say P didn't like Peggy's mixes. First time I hear such a thing. Could you elaborate??

williamb610 said:

databank said:

Thx Kares and Bart for your replies.

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Now that I understand the format thing better, I must admit I find it as puzzling as you do. Why oh why indeed??

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Now I find it equally hard to believe that Michael Howe would be able to locate multitracks and cassettes for each track they released, but wouldn't be able to locate 1/2'' tapes, and instead spend big bucks on hiring a top industry engineer to painstakefully remix everything.

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Also, doesnt Duane keep saying mixes were put down to cassette in his book?

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Another odd thing is that in his interview with Militant, HM Buff explains that he had to go to the vault and mix the tracks on Crystal Ball. Did he mean only the 80's tracks, were there 1/2'' mixes for the Come/Gold era tracks already ready for use? He didn't say and it'd be interesting to know. But that made me realized that then, the old bootlegs we had of some of the 80's tracks are actually, technically different mixes than the ones on CB!! It'd be interesting for someone with a really good ear like you, Kares, to compare the bootleg and CB mixes of, say, Sexual Suicide or Dream Factory with the previously circulating bootlegs, and tell us if you can spot a different mix.

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But Buff's claims seem to corroborate the fact that the 80's mixes (at least) were not available either. Now I find it hard to believe that these early DF, Camille and Crystal Ball configs would only exist on cassette.

Typically the mixes on the Japanese CB86 leak seem to be exactly the same as the ones on SOTT, aren't they? It would actually be interesting to compare:

- The cassette mixes on old bootlegs with the CB98 tracks;

- The CB86 mixes with the SOTT ones;

- The CB86 CB (the track) with the CB98 CB (the track).

I could give it a shot but I think I simply don't have the ears to be able to come-up with anything conclusive.

Kares, if you ever get around trying this, please let us know, it could be very revealing

It's funny you mention Sexual Suicide because on the original bootleg that I got, there was only one Prince voice singing everything on the bootleg song. On the official Crystal Ball 1997 release, Prince doubled up his voice on the released version of Sexual Suicide, if I remember correctly.

At least one circulating bootleg of SS is indeed a slightly different mix than the CB98 one. According to Pvault this was the version intended for DF. I'm not certain whether the mix on CB98 is different because Prince had HM Buff create a different mix or if this version, at least an early mix of it, also existed in 85/86. Does anyone know whether the CB98 version (or a close approximation) circulated before or if it was totally new to us?

TrevorAyer said:

my guess would be that prince only made masters when he felt the song was close to completion ... the audio cassette could have a rough mix or just a mix with all his overdubs up so he could hear what he laid down and decide what to keep .. the originals tunes were likely songs he wasn't finished with or happy with enough to do a master mix and that is why the rough cassettes were made to share with other artists with guide vocals that prince likely never intended for public consumption .. i would imagine if a song was hot right off the press he might make a master .. but if he was still feeling it needed more overdubs or wasnt quite feeling the take or performance it might never make it to the master mix phase .. consicer also that he may do several takes of a song and take home a rough tape to decide which "take" was worth finishing .. plus it was the 80s and cassettes were super convenient

If nothing else, this makes me realize how much we still don't know and still have to learn. Hopefully some day one of P's pas engineers, or Duane maybe, can clear this all for us