I don't think this interview has surfaced before on here, because googling the phrase didn't get me any results, but this review of 1999 Super Deluxe comes with an interview with Michael Howe in which he outlines the reasons not to include those two tracks: https://recordcollectorma...xe-edition

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Were there any instances of leaving things off due to lyrical content?

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The only things I wish [we could have included], just for the sake of completeness, were Lust U Always and Extraloveable. It was just a non-starter, unfortunately. They’re obviously two tracks that are resolutely in the era, but both have very unfortunate rape references in them. I think the follow-up question is: Why didn’t you just do a fade? Edit it? That goes back to the guiding principle of dealing with this stuff with as much completeness and respect as possible, taking as few creative liberties as possible. Messing with the art, basically, is not something we want to do. We were left with the best bad choice possible…

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"Completeness", eh?

That's not great for those of us that bought into the vault mythology. Between that, and the books detailing his recording logs, it's seeming more and more the majority is circulating already. Maybe the period after the Vault is set up is when the real secrets begin.

As for leaving off tracks...a lot of them sound dated of their time too, if you're giving 2020 audiences credit they can figure that out, you should do the same for the content of the lyrics.

[Edited 5/1/20 14:37pm]

i continue to maintain that there would have been extremely minimal "damage" from releasing these on the set. there may have been a small handful of articles from nobody journalists and websites looking to get attention, but that would've fizzeled out very quickly. anyone who thinks it would've caused a "massive shitstorm" is overestimating the situation, in my opinion.

of course this has already been discussed ad nauseam but it's still fun to get angry about it.

I am not sure when he said that...but he said something very similar months ago and it was discussed here...

https://prince.org/msg/7/461909


“Even though those two tracks are resolutely of the era, both tracks contain somewhat lamentable rape references. Given the egregiously insensitive candour of the lyrics and our lack of wanting to take creative license by editing or manipulating the tracks, we decided not to include them. Even though we want to shed light on the entire creative period, we certainly don’t want to be inflammatory or insensitive. We didn’t think it was right to include them.”



it is odd that would not removed a word that he did not include in the recent remake...



But they could have and released it: edited or not! Disney + plays all kinds of shows with things that would not fly now... and all they do is put little disclaimer of old cultural references.

[Edited 5/1/20 16:18pm]

Honestly, I hope they just release the Vanity 6 version, and then the demo can be released on another Originals release; it's so obvious to me listening to the demo which parts Prince intended for Vanity and Brenda, as he uses different "voices" on those parts. First releasing the V6 version would take the sting out of any "rape" line in the V6 version. Furthermore, who the hell knows if the rape lyrics are from the original demo(s) or the later overdubs? Access to the multis would probably yield plenty of options. The fact is simply they didn't want to remaster and release the known circulating version for whatever reasons, and that's that.

OnlyNDaUsa said:

I am not sure when he said that...but he said something very similar months ago and it was discussed here...

https://prince.org/msg/7/461909


“Even though those two tracks are resolutely of the era, both tracks contain somewhat lamentable rape references. Given the egregiously insensitive candour of the lyrics and our lack of wanting to take creative license by editing or manipulating the tracks, we decided not to include them. Even though we want to shed light on the entire creative period, we certainly don’t want to be inflammatory or insensitive. We didn’t think it was right to include them.”

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Source of that quote: https://www.ilikeyourolds...ince-vault

SantanaMaitreya said:

They just didn't want to cause any trouble. All it takes is one nitwit on Twitter saying: Prince was a rapist! And you have a shitstorm. And the Estate (understandably) wants to present the late great Prince as a good person who always helped others. That said, I agree with everybody who says these songs should be released. Every fan understands that this is fantasy.

I agree with all you've said until the last part. Not every fan believes this is a fantasy.

Because he didn't want.

BartVanHemelen said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

I am not sure when he said that...but he said something very similar months ago and it was discussed here...

https://prince.org/msg/7/461909


“Even though those two tracks are resolutely of the era, both tracks contain somewhat lamentable rape references. Given the egregiously insensitive candour of the lyrics and our lack of wanting to take creative license by editing or manipulating the tracks, we decided not to include them. Even though we want to shed light on the entire creative period, we certainly don’t want to be inflammatory or insensitive. We didn’t think it was right to include them.”

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Source of that quote: https://www.ilikeyourolds...ince-vault

My point was you made this topic suggesting the reason why they were excluded had never been posted here when I was covered ages ago. In fact we all knew why they were as soon as the list was known and before that it was debated if they would be included as is, edited, or excluded.

And given your history of being quick to jump all over people for not googling or knowing basic facts and the like... I would say you messed up here... By your OWN standard.

OnlyNDaUsa said:

BartVanHemelen said:

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Source of that quote: https://www.ilikeyourolds...ince-vault

My point was you made this topic suggesting the reason why they were excluded had never been posted here

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No, I did not so.

BartVanHemelen said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

My point was you made this topic suggesting the reason why they were excluded had never been posted here

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No, I did not so.

sure you did you said as if it was never posted here "he outlines the reasons not to include those two tracks."


yeah we know we've known for Months... the fact that THIS one of several interviews Howe did on this matter is not the same as other interviews where he said the same thing is not worthy of a new topic. but it is a cool interview: wholly repeative and with no new info but good...

In fact I suspect that the article you posted was a paraphrase of the one I quoted that was posted here months ago. But then again a few very basic questions with well formulated answers that were crafted in anticipation of being asked.

Milty2 said:

Not every fan believes this is a fantasy.

I mean, maybe there are fans that watched him get tied to a bed by Lisa and Jill and thought that looked sincere too. Is it possible to know Prince wasn't playing with being provocative?

Liner notes could have cleared things up. They could have even benefitted from the conroversial press and made a point of conveying the intent. A trigger warning with a well worded note from one of Prince's ex's confirming that Prince believed in consent, and that the song wasn't reflected on how he conducted his private life, along with why it was important to include the music, would have gone a long way.

but both have very unfortunate rape references in them.

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Why did they `invent` parental advisory stickers ages ago?

Mr. Howe is just trying to be politically correct.

He is more concerned about shape than about content.

This means he has no backbone to `defend` publishing these songs.

lustmealways said:

i continue to maintain that there would have been extremely minimal "damage" from releasing these on the set. there may have been a small handful of articles from nobody journalists and websites looking to get attention, but that would've fizzeled out very quickly. anyone who thinks it would've caused a "massive shitstorm" is overestimating the situation, in my opinion.

of course this has already been discussed ad nauseam but it's still fun to get angry about it.

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Howe says in that interview :

" and our lack of wanting to take creative license by editing or manipulating the tracks"

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First at lustmealways, I absolutely agree on overestimating the situation.

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For instance, they could've released them as b-side downloads or something like that.

Especially now in covid-19 times, when there is much less attention spend.

Bizarre idea, but why not releasing them as official downloads & the money used for a #metoo organisation, or any other platform taking care of abused women in need etc..

It could help justify this whole thing.

And wy not have Lisa or Wendy or Jill write a explanatory (art) statement with it... something like that.

A creative solution.

Sounds strange, but could be possible (but only in Europe i guess).

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[Edited 5/3/20 21:58pm]

[Edited 5/3/20 21:58pm]

lavendardrummachine said:

Milty2 said:

Not every fan believes this is a fantasy.

I mean, maybe there are fans that watched him get tied to a bed by Lisa and Jill and thought that looked sincere too. Is it possible to know Prince wasn't playing with being provocative?

Liner notes could have cleared things up. They could have even benefitted from the conroversial press and made a point of conveying the intent. A trigger warning with a well worded note from one of Prince's ex's confirming that Prince believed in consent, and that the song wasn't reflected on how he conducted his private life, along with why it was important to include the music, would have gone a long way.

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Exactly.

As i come to think of it, I thing we're forgetting one important and very possible thing here;

a pack of lawyer wolves smelling a shitload of easy earned money in post-metoo times.

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lustmealways said:

i continue to maintain that there would have been extremely minimal "damage" from releasing these on the set. there may have been a small handful of articles from nobody journalists and websites looking to get attention, but that would've fizzled out very quickly. anyone who thinks it would've caused a "massive shitstorm" is overestimating the situation, in my opinion.

I totally agree.I don't think we would have seen a big media firestorm if these two songs had been included on the set.Look at the song "Vagina",where Prince is singing about meeting a "boy/girl" in a gay bar.It hardly raised any eyebrows

It was only due to this mild 'controversy' that I came to know about used such references. These two tracks seem to get more publicity than the entire box set.

Like many, I have listened to these tracks for years but never noticed.

These references are so very minor they are easily misssed.

The Estate should standby Prince for being Prince and that should include everything - the good, the bad and the ugly.

Personally I would have added these two tracks. In fact they are the two best tracks from this era!

I would have even compromised with have the word 'rape' reversed, just like the word 'shit' was masked on My Name Is Prince.

If the Estate are so worried about these two tracks, they will have spinning heads when they look at '90s material!

Considering the enormous problem the USA has with gun crime, the Estate are still happy to 'celebrate' Prince having a gun shaped microphone. That to me is far more irresponsible.

So awesome to see another thread on this topic, which hasn't been discussd to death, doesn't provoke bad faith arguments on all sides, and brings out the absolute best in everyone involved.

the egregiously insensitive candour of the lyrics

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That statement of course denies any context which means Michael is a weak debater.

- Fiction

- Lust

- Young adult

- etc

But nothing of that.

SoulAlive said:

I totally agree.I don't think we would have seen a big media firestorm if these two songs had been included on the set.Look at the song "Vagina",where Prince is singing about meeting a "boy/girl" in a gay bar.It hardly raised any eyebrows

Gender-fluidity is not equivalent to sexual violence.

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There is some weird aggressiveness (not your post SoulAlive) in this thread directed at Michael Howe that is totally uncalled for. This has been discussed before and whilst I agree that the lyrics aren't pro-rape in any way - he's using the word in an immature way for sure, to get across a sense of strong attraction and lust (again, we discussed this before here). I think they made the right call in the current age of social media, cancel culture, post-#MeToo, Weinstein etc.

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This isn't the be all and end all of reissues and vault releases. It's perfect feasible that these two tracks could be released at a point in the future. Things change. Besides that, they're both out there for fans to hear if they want. The name calling and putting it all on the shoulders of Michael Howe is really unnecessary and I hope he and the estate aren't reading this thread.

NouveauDance said:

There is some weird aggressiveness (not your post SoulAlive) in this thread directed at Michael Howe that is totally uncalled for.

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Why is it uncalled?

His arguments are weak.

His decisions damage art.

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This has been discussed before and whilst I agree that the lyrics aren't pro-rape in any way - he's using the word in an immature way for sure, to get across a sense of strong attraction and lust (again, we discussed this before here). I think they made the right call in the current age of social media, cancel culture, post-#MeToo, Weinstein etc.

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I.e.: we should give in to the 'identity politics'?

Those are designed to draw away attantion from the real issues, to divide people.

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This isn't the be all and end all of reissues and vault releases.

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Dream on.

At this pace we will all be dead before 1999 is revisited with these songs.

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As I have stated before: the Estate thing does not know what is good for us nor what it should do in market conditions as they are right now.

They will never reach maximum profit in the given situation.

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It's perfect feasible that these two tracks could be released at a point in the future. Things change. Besides that, they're both out there for fans to hear if they want. The name calling and putting it all on the shoulders of Michael Howe is really unnecessary and I hope he and the estate aren't reading this thread.

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Putting the blame on the idendity-people is even weaker than Michael Howe denying any context for the lyrics, any context for the audience, any recognition for the art.

What amount of tyhe population is really interested in the idenity thing, what amount of the population needs the identity thing? (i.e.: the gays, trans people, bi, etc)

Why would that group object in a different manner than the 'normal' population?

I'd guess that the non-identity politics people group is bigger.

They have slightly more conservative norms, so they should object more.

But they're adults, they know Prince, they have been fans for ages.

They buy the box set instead of the single CD.

Michael failed us again.

Like I said, I think the aggressive tone is unnecessary and disproportionate to the topic.

Michael Howe wants his cake and eat it too. To be the face of the estate but take no responsibility for being a cowardly A&R snake in the grass.

Yes, people will be aggressive against a person like that. Most people don't like liars.

NouveauDance said:

NouveauDance said:

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Besides that, they're both out there for fans to hear if they want.

Dear Michael Howe,

Please DO NOT release any of the following material from the vault as it’s already out there for us to listen to…

The For You Demos
The Rebels Album
Live at First Anvenue '83 & '84
The Family Sessions with Prince's guide vocals
The Family Concret
The 1st Parade Configuration
Prince Birthday Gig '86
The Flesh Sessions
The Dream Factory Album
The Camille Album
4 Those of U on Valium
The Trojan Horse Aftershow
Half of Rave Unto The Joy Fantastic '89
Madhouse 24
The Beautiful Experience movie
The Unreleased Exodus Tracks
The Roadhouse Garden Album
Most of Crystal Ball II
The Montreux Jazz Festival

Plus any of the following studio tracks...
Strange Way
Empty Room
We Can Funk '86
In A Large Room With No Light
Wally
The Grand Progression
Dance With The Devil
Schoolyard
A 1,000 Hugs And Kisses
Days Of Wild (studio)