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Reply #60 posted 08/17/19 10:05pm

PeteSilas

violetcrush said:

Miitch said:
As someone who (kinda) plays piano, and who loves to listen to it, I thoroughly appreciate his ballad interludes. Hearing him play Little Red Corvette was what got me hooked. And, yes, the lounge singer thing isn't exactly a classic Prince style, but I have to say I kinda liked it. Besides, let a man try different things. He wrote his own rules, I guess he was allowed to break them from time to time.
Could’ve been an ode to his Father? He was a lounge singer/piano player.

i was going to say that but it's really all too obvious. His dad whom he idolized in many ways and probably hated in others was the guy he would spend time listening too and sneaking into the strip joints that John Nelson played in to watch him play, it had to be an early if not very first influence on the man. I've said all along too that Prince's harmonics come from Jazz primarily with some churchy chords sneaking in where you'd never expect them to.

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Reply #61 posted 08/18/19 1:51pm

Miitch

PeteSilas said:



violetcrush said:


Miitch said:
As someone who (kinda) plays piano, and who loves to listen to it, I thoroughly appreciate his ballad interludes. Hearing him play Little Red Corvette was what got me hooked. And, yes, the lounge singer thing isn't exactly a classic Prince style, but I have to say I kinda liked it. Besides, let a man try different things. He wrote his own rules, I guess he was allowed to break them from time to time.

Could’ve been an ode to his Father? He was a lounge singer/piano player.

i was going to say that but it's really all too obvious. His dad whom he idolized in many ways and probably hated in others was the guy he would spend time listening too and sneaking into the strip joints that John Nelson played in to watch him play, it had to be an early if not very first influence on the man. I've said all along too that Prince's harmonics come from Jazz primarily with some churchy chords sneaking in where you'd never expect them to.




I didn't know that. But that's sweet.
And yes, I've always loved those gospel chords of him. How Come U Don't Call Me Anymore is a good example of that.
I'll die, but I won't go away~
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Reply #62 posted 08/19/19 8:13am

violetcrush

PeteSilas said:

violetcrush said:

Miitch said: Could’ve been an ode to his Father? He was a lounge singer/piano player.

i was going to say that but it's really all too obvious. His dad whom he idolized in many ways and probably hated in others was the guy he would spend time listening too and sneaking into the strip joints that John Nelson played in to watch him play, it had to be an early if not very first influence on the man. I've said all along too that Prince's harmonics come from Jazz primarily with some churchy chords sneaking in where you'd never expect them to.

Yes, most of his associates and friends have stated he revered his Father, and emulated him to some degree. Any abusive incidents that occured during his childhood aside, he had much respect for his Dad, and wanted to make him proud. He confirmed this during several of his P&M shows.

*

The sad part is that they could/would have probably been closer had his Dad been more present and nurturing during his childhood years. Seems it wasn't until the mid 80's that they began to repair their strained relationship.

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Reply #63 posted 08/19/19 8:57am

Buttox

violetcrush said:

Miitch said:




As someone who (kinda) plays piano, and who loves to listen to it, I thoroughly appreciate his ballad interludes. Hearing him play Little Red Corvette was what got me hooked.
And, yes, the lounge singer thing isn't exactly a classic Prince style, but I have to say I kinda liked it. Besides, let a man try different things. He wrote his own rules, I guess he was allowed to break them from time to time.

Could’ve been an ode to his Father? He was a lounge singer/piano player.


You're probably spot on...it was an homage to his father. And obviously he did what he wanted to do but to me it just didn't work with the rock guitar genius persona of purple rain..I even really like the ladder and would have preferred a more acoustic version just with piano and no horns or strings...but the lounge singer thing...just doesn't feel right.
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Reply #64 posted 08/19/19 9:27am

violetcrush

Buttox said:

violetcrush said:
Could’ve been an ode to his Father? He was a lounge singer/piano player.
You're probably spot on...it was an homage to his father. And obviously he did what he wanted to do but to me it just didn't work with the rock guitar genius persona of purple rain..I even really like the ladder and would have preferred a more acoustic version just with piano and no horns or strings...but the lounge singer thing...just doesn't feel right.

I do think it was probably less an homage to his Father, and more of an "itch" he wanted to scratch with both his love of the old Hollywood films, and his consistent message that living for only money and sex is evil (the devil's work), and living your life for love (God's work) is good. This conflict became prevalent with him once Purple Rain exploded.

*

I appreciate both his 180 degree musical turn with ATWIAD - which we know was completed way before he ended the PR tour, and his artistic gamble with UTCM and Parade. He was certainly trying to expand his musical and theatrical repertoire. He just needed more skilled guidance with making the film. That was, and continued to be, his biggest downfall, and it got progressively worse with Graffiti Bridge. confused

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Reply #65 posted 08/21/19 12:10am

Buttox

violetcrush said:



Buttox said:


violetcrush said:
Could’ve been an ode to his Father? He was a lounge singer/piano player.

You're probably spot on...it was an homage to his father. And obviously he did what he wanted to do but to me it just didn't work with the rock guitar genius persona of purple rain..I even really like the ladder and would have preferred a more acoustic version just with piano and no horns or strings...but the lounge singer thing...just doesn't feel right.


I do think it was probably less an homage to his Father, and more of an "itch" he wanted to scratch with both his love of the old Hollywood films, and his consistent message that living for only money and sex is evil (the devil's work), and living your life for love (God's work) is good. This conflict became prevalent with him once Purple Rain exploded.


*


I appreciate both his 180 degree musical turn with ATWIAD - which we know was completed way before he ended the PR tour, and his artistic gamble with UTCM and Parade. He was certainly trying to expand his musical and theatrical repertoire. He just needed more skilled guidance with making the film. That was, and continued to be, his biggest downfall, and it got progressively worse with Graffiti Bridge. confused



Well now you really got me thinking. Parade is an excellent album, brimming with confidence, diverse colours and a taut jazzy European pulse -love the french accordion on Do You Lie! But aside from the song UTCM none of it says "lounge singer music" no way no how...so yes the film itself needed a better screenplay and direction etc but I still contend that the deepest flaw in this period was this lounge singer itch of his.

On ATWIAD...it is my most disliked album because we could have easily had an album called Pop Life that replaced the songs Tambourine, Temptation, America and ATWIAD with She's always in my hair, mutiny, desire and a Susannah M only vocal of nothing compares 2 U...as well as my aforementioned acoustic Y
The ladder...a pure pop album that would have given Purple Rain and 1999 a run for their money....what we got instead was "look ma..this ain't purple rain and i can use weird and new instruments too"
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Reply #66 posted 08/21/19 12:21am

PeteSilas

violetcrush said:

PeteSilas said:

i was going to say that but it's really all too obvious. His dad whom he idolized in many ways and probably hated in others was the guy he would spend time listening too and sneaking into the strip joints that John Nelson played in to watch him play, it had to be an early if not very first influence on the man. I've said all along too that Prince's harmonics come from Jazz primarily with some churchy chords sneaking in where you'd never expect them to.

Yes, most of his associates and friends have stated he revered his Father, and emulated him to some degree. Any abusive incidents that occured during his childhood aside, he had much respect for his Dad, and wanted to make him proud. He confirmed this during several of his P&M shows.

*

The sad part is that they could/would have probably been closer had his Dad been more present and nurturing during his childhood years. Seems it wasn't until the mid 80's that they began to repair their strained relationship.

prince was quite a contradiction, he didn't seem like the forgiving type in those years yet he was good to his father after he madesome money. I don't know If i could have done that, his dad was abusive and kicked him out on the streets, i'm not saying i wouldn't have forgiven that but not in my twenties, hell no.

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Reply #67 posted 08/21/19 2:31am

TheFman

Buttox said:

On ATWIAD...it is my most disliked album because we could have easily had an album called Pop Life that replaced the songs Tambourine, Temptation, America and ATWIAD with She's always in my hair, mutiny, desire and a Susannah M only vocal of nothing compares 2 U...as well as my aforementioned acoustic Y The ladder..

Oh that's wrong in so many ways, Idont know where to start. So i won't.

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Reply #68 posted 08/21/19 3:39am

Miitch

TheFman said:



Buttox said:


On ATWIAD...it is my most disliked album because we could have easily had an album called Pop Life that replaced the songs Tambourine, Temptation, America and ATWIAD with She's always in my hair, mutiny, desire and a Susannah M only vocal of nothing compares 2 U...as well as my aforementioned acoustic Y The ladder..

Oh that's wrong in so many ways, Idont know where to start. So i won't.




ATWIAD? I don't follow...
I'll die, but I won't go away~
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Reply #69 posted 08/21/19 7:14am

Buttox

TheFman said:



Buttox said:


On ATWIAD...it is my most disliked album because we could have easily had an album called Pop Life that replaced the songs Tambourine, Temptation, America and ATWIAD with She's always in my hair, mutiny, desire and a Susannah M only vocal of nothing compares 2 U...as well as my aforementioned acoustic Y The ladder..

Oh that's wrong in so many ways, Idont know where to start. So i won't.



Opinions are not wrong..they are just opinions...what are you doing on a discussion forum if only your perspective is right? I shouldn't have bothered responding but I did.
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Reply #70 posted 08/21/19 11:44am

violetcrush

Buttox said:

violetcrush said:

I do think it was probably less an homage to his Father, and more of an "itch" he wanted to scratch with both his love of the old Hollywood films, and his consistent message that living for only money and sex is evil (the devil's work), and living your life for love (God's work) is good. This conflict became prevalent with him once Purple Rain exploded.

*

I appreciate both his 180 degree musical turn with ATWIAD - which we know was completed way before he ended the PR tour, and his artistic gamble with UTCM and Parade. He was certainly trying to expand his musical and theatrical repertoire. He just needed more skilled guidance with making the film. That was, and continued to be, his biggest downfall, and it got progressively worse with Graffiti Bridge. confused

Well now you really got me thinking. Parade is an excellent album, brimming with confidence, diverse colours and a taut jazzy European pulse -love the french accordion on Do You Lie! But aside from the song UTCM none of it says "lounge singer music" no way no how...so yes the film itself needed a better screenplay and direction etc but I still contend that the deepest flaw in this period was this lounge singer itch of his. On ATWIAD...it is my most disliked album because we could have easily had an album called Pop Life that replaced the songs Tambourine, Temptation, America and ATWIAD with She's always in my hair, mutiny, desire and a Susannah M only vocal of nothing compares 2 U...as well as my aforementioned acoustic Y The ladder...a pure pop album that would have given Purple Rain and 1999 a run for their money....what we got instead was "look ma..this ain't purple rain and i can use weird and new instruments too"

But that is exactly it - Prince stated the same thing (I'll post his comments below) - he was DONE with the Purple Rain sound - WAY done with it by the time they began the US tour. He had recorded most of the music for PR in early to mid 1983, well over a year before the tour began, which is why he was recording so much new music during the months before the tour.

*

He was constantly looking and listening for new inspiration, and he did NOT want to be pigeonholed (his exact words) into being the "Purple Rain" guy. He was interested in new sounds and new instrumentation, and he loved what David Coleman and Jonathan Melvoin were doing. He wanted to show not only his fans, but also the masses, that he was capable of more than just the standard rock/pop sound, and I think he accomplished that. However, the "masses" just didn't get it, and he knew they wouldn't.

*

Prince, during his June 7 1986 interview with the DJ Electrifying Mojo when asked what inspired him to make ATWIAD:

*

"I sort of had an F-you attitude, meaning that I was making something for myself and my fans. And the people who supported me through the years - I wanted to give them something and it was like my mental letter."

*

Susan Rodgers on the above quote and her take on Prince's choice to do ATWIAD:

*

"I think that a "fuck you" attitude sounds way too harsh. I think he was at the happiest time in his life, and i think that was important. He was in power. He was determined that he wasn't going to make "Purple Rain II". He was smart enough to know what he had to do; ATWIAD was the record he absolutely had to make."

*

Prince, during his 1999 interview with Entertainment Weekly when asked about the success of Purple Rain:

*

"In some ways, Purple Rain was more detrimental than good. People's perception of me changed after that, and it pigeonholed me. I saw kids coming to concerts who screamed just because that's where the audience screamed in the movie. That's why I did ATWIAD, to totally change that. I wanted not to be pigeonhold."

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Reply #71 posted 08/21/19 2:44pm

Buttox

violetcrush said:



Buttox said:


violetcrush said:



I do think it was probably less an homage to his Father, and more of an "itch" he wanted to scratch with both his love of the old Hollywood films, and his consistent message that living for only money and sex is evil (the devil's work), and living your life for love (God's work) is good. This conflict became prevalent with him once Purple Rain exploded.


*


I appreciate both his 180 degree musical turn with ATWIAD - which we know was completed way before he ended the PR tour, and his artistic gamble with UTCM and Parade. He was certainly trying to expand his musical and theatrical repertoire. He just needed more skilled guidance with making the film. That was, and continued to be, his biggest downfall, and it got progressively worse with Graffiti Bridge. confused



Well now you really got me thinking. Parade is an excellent album, brimming with confidence, diverse colours and a taut jazzy European pulse -love the french accordion on Do You Lie! But aside from the song UTCM none of it says "lounge singer music" no way no how...so yes the film itself needed a better screenplay and direction etc but I still contend that the deepest flaw in this period was this lounge singer itch of his. On ATWIAD...it is my most disliked album because we could have easily had an album called Pop Life that replaced the songs Tambourine, Temptation, America and ATWIAD with She's always in my hair, mutiny, desire and a Susannah M only vocal of nothing compares 2 U...as well as my aforementioned acoustic Y The ladder...a pure pop album that would have given Purple Rain and 1999 a run for their money....what we got instead was "look ma..this ain't purple rain and i can use weird and new instruments too"


But that is exactly it - Prince stated the same thing (I'll post his comments below) - he was DONE with the Purple Rain sound - WAY done with it by the time they began the US tour. He had recorded most of the music for PR in early to mid 1983, well over a year before the tour began, which is why he was recording so much new music during the months before the tour.


*


He was constantly looking and listening for new inspiration, and he did NOT want to be pigeonholed (his exact words) into being the "Purple Rain" guy. He was interested in new sounds and new instrumentation, and he loved what David Coleman and Jonathan Melvoin were doing. He wanted to show not only his fans, but also the masses, that he was capable of more than just the standard rock/pop sound, and I think he accomplished that. However, the "masses" just didn't get it, and he knew they wouldn't.


*


Prince, during his June 7 1986 interview with the DJ Electrifying Mojo when asked what inspired him to make ATWIAD:


*


"I sort of had an F-you attitude, meaning that I was making something for myself and my fans. And the people who supported me through the years - I wanted to give them something and it was like my mental letter."


*


Susan Rodgers on the above quote and her take on Prince's choice to do ATWIAD:


*


"I think that a "fuck you" attitude sounds way too harsh. I think he was at the happiest time in his life, and i think that was important. He was in power. He was determined that he wasn't going to make "Purple Rain II". He was smart enough to know what he had to do; ATWIAD was the record he absolutely had to make."



*


Prince, during his 1999 interview with Entertainment Weekly when asked about the success of Purple Rain:


*


"In some ways, Purple Rain was more detrimental than good. People's perception of me changed after that, and it pigeonholed me. I saw kids coming to concerts who screamed just because that's where the audience screamed in the movie. That's why I did ATWIAD, to totally change that. I wanted not to be pigeonhold."



I don't think an album with the track listing:

Nothing Compares 2 U (sparse Susannah only vocal)
Paisley Park
Mutiny
Raspberry Beret
Condition of the Heart
She"s Always in my Hair
Desire
The Ladder (sparse piano only)
Pop Life

Would have pigeon holed him any more than if he had followed up Purple Rain with Parade. My point is exactly what you are quoting about...that ATWIAD was much less about "the songs he made in our ears" being his goal and too much about being different and departing from the past for its own sake- to the detriment of his song craft.

Interestingly Wendy M in an interview also hints on his obsession with churning out as much material as possible and credits the supreme quality of Purple Rain with him being forced to spend more time crafting and honing its songs.

My track listing is from songs of the ATWIAD era that came out around the same time...the Pop Life album could have happened if he hadnt felt so burdened by Purple Rain and for me would have been an excellent evolution and significant departure. ATWIAD and the other throw away songs I've listed are b side quality...interesting but not memorable or strong enough melodies and hooks for a broad audience and he never got close to that purple rain audience back.
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Reply #72 posted 08/21/19 4:48pm

herb4

avatar

TheFman said:

Buttox said:

On ATWIAD...it is my most disliked album because we could have easily had an album called Pop Life that replaced the songs Tambourine, Temptation, America and ATWIAD with She's always in my hair, mutiny, desire and a Susannah M only vocal of nothing compares 2 U...as well as my aforementioned acoustic Y The ladder..

Oh that's wrong in so many ways, Idont know where to start. So i won't.


I think Fman was simply saying "the album could have been better". I happen to agree TBH but we're a bit off topic now.

I appreciate ATWIAD for what it was and enjoyed it when it came out but, all along (and even now), it felt like it was trying a bit too hard to be "Not Purple Rain" and he left some of his strongest material of the tiem off of it, starting with SAIMH for reasons of his own.

Parade was a clearer realization of his own psychadelic aspirations, IMO, and the far superior album. It felt like Prince doing psychadelia HIS WAY as opposed to "this is going to be a psychadelic album" and "fuck you if I'm gonna be trapped in the Purple Rain sound". Overall, I think it was a wise move but the attitude alone doesn't make it a great album. Or one that was as good as it might have been anyway.

[Edited 8/21/19 16:53pm]

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Reply #73 posted 08/21/19 5:52pm

violetcrush

Buttox said:

violetcrush said:



Buttox said:


violetcrush said:



I do think it was probably less an homage to his Father, and more of an "itch" he wanted to scratch with both his love of the old Hollywood films, and his consistent message that living for only money and sex is evil (the devil's work), and living your life for love (God's work) is good. This conflict became prevalent with him once Purple Rain exploded.


*


I appreciate both his 180 degree musical turn with ATWIAD - which we know was completed way before he ended the PR tour, and his artistic gamble with UTCM and Parade. He was certainly trying to expand his musical and theatrical repertoire. He just needed more skilled guidance with making the film. That was, and continued to be, his biggest downfall, and it got progressively worse with Graffiti Bridge. confused



Well now you really got me thinking. Parade is an excellent album, brimming with confidence, diverse colours and a taut jazzy European pulse -love the french accordion on Do You Lie! But aside from the song UTCM none of it says "lounge singer music" no way no how...so yes the film itself needed a better screenplay and direction etc but I still contend that the deepest flaw in this period was this lounge singer itch of his. On ATWIAD...it is my most disliked album because we could have easily had an album called Pop Life that replaced the songs Tambourine, Temptation, America and ATWIAD with She's always in my hair, mutiny, desire and a Susannah M only vocal of nothing compares 2 U...as well as my aforementioned acoustic Y The ladder...a pure pop album that would have given Purple Rain and 1999 a run for their money....what we got instead was "look ma..this ain't purple rain and i can use weird and new instruments too"


But that is exactly it - Prince stated the same thing (I'll post his comments below) - he was DONE with the Purple Rain sound - WAY done with it by the time they began the US tour. He had recorded most of the music for PR in early to mid 1983, well over a year before the tour began, which is why he was recording so much new music during the months before the tour.


*


He was constantly looking and listening for new inspiration, and he did NOT want to be pigeonholed (his exact words) into being the "Purple Rain" guy. He was interested in new sounds and new instrumentation, and he loved what David Coleman and Jonathan Melvoin were doing. He wanted to show not only his fans, but also the masses, that he was capable of more than just the standard rock/pop sound, and I think he accomplished that. However, the "masses" just didn't get it, and he knew they wouldn't.


*


Prince, during his June 7 1986 interview with the DJ Electrifying Mojo when asked what inspired him to make ATWIAD:


*


"I sort of had an F-you attitude, meaning that I was making something for myself and my fans. And the people who supported me through the years - I wanted to give them something and it was like my mental letter."


*


Susan Rodgers on the above quote and her take on Prince's choice to do ATWIAD:


*


"I think that a "fuck you" attitude sounds way too harsh. I think he was at the happiest time in his life, and i think that was important. He was in power. He was determined that he wasn't going to make "Purple Rain II". He was smart enough to know what he had to do; ATWIAD was the record he absolutely had to make."



*


Prince, during his 1999 interview with Entertainment Weekly when asked about the success of Purple Rain:


*


"In some ways, Purple Rain was more detrimental than good. People's perception of me changed after that, and it pigeonholed me. I saw kids coming to concerts who screamed just because that's where the audience screamed in the movie. That's why I did ATWIAD, to totally change that. I wanted not to be pigeonhold."



I don't think an album with the track listing:

Nothing Compares 2 U (sparse Susannah only vocal)
Paisley Park
Mutiny
Raspberry Beret
Condition of the Heart
She"s Always in my Hair
Desire
The Ladder (sparse piano only)
Pop Life

Would have pigeon holed him any more than if he had followed up Purple Rain with Parade. My point is exactly what you are quoting about...that ATWIAD was much less about "the songs he made in our ears" being his goal and too much about being different and departing from the past for its own sake- to the detriment of his song craft.

Interestingly Wendy M in an interview also hints on his obsession with churning out as much material as possible and credits the supreme quality of Purple Rain with him being forced to spend more time crafting and honing its songs.

My track listing is from songs of the ATWIAD era that came out around the same time...the Pop Life album could have happened if he hadnt felt so burdened by Purple Rain and for me would have been an excellent evolution and significant departure. ATWIAD and the other throw away songs I've listed are b side quality...interesting but not memorable or strong enough melodies and hooks for a broad audience and he never got close to that purple rain audience back.


Most of the PR album was also done in a short period of time - Spring/Sumner of 1983. The reason it took so long to release the album was because they had to wait until the film was done and ready to be released. If there were no film the album could have been released in the Fall of ‘83 instead of the Sumner of ‘84.
*
The songs Desire, Mutiny and NC2U were already slotted for The Family album and contain the specific sound and mood for that group, so they would not have been included on his next album. SAIMH is more of the PR sound and mood which would not fit on a “new sound” record.
*
Prince chose the title song, because he really liked it - not just because it was so “different” sounding. As much as he may have wanted to move away from the PR sound he would not choose songs for that reason only.
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