Rehearsal tapes and all? Who had access to this stuff? I know I probably shouldn't care but for some reason I'm torn between being pissed off and not being able to look away.

Grog said:

Rehearsal tapes and all? Who had access to this stuff? I know I probably shouldn't care but for some reason I'm torn between being pissed off and not being able to look away.

Why on earth would you be pissed off about being able to hear/see this stuff?

Grog said:

Rehearsal tapes and all? Who had access to this stuff? I know I probably shouldn't care but for some reason I'm torn between being pissed off and not being able to look away.

Is there anything on YT that hasn't been circulating and/or bootlegged? I think people here would have noticed.

I see you joined the Org a decade ago, certainly you must know that for decades now, unreleased songs, rehearsals, soundchecks and live shows have been circulating among fans.

Lots of people.

Geezus

rdhull said:

Lots of people.

Geezus

SHUT UP ALREADY....DAYUM!

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

Grog said:

Rehearsal tapes and all? Who had access to this stuff? I know I probably shouldn't care but for some reason I'm torn between being pissed off and not being able to look away.

Why would you be pissed off? Are you wanting to be angry about something? Don't take up the self-righteous banner that some fans do about "I simply wil not listen to bootlegs". Puh-leeze, yes you will. We all do. For me, the ethics lay in not paying for bootlegs. You can trade them, listen to them, and if the estate puts out better copies then you buy them. otherwise, enjoy the music and stop with the "I'm torn" business. You're fighting to be upset and missing out on pleasure.

And who has access to them? Everyone who's ever given them to the bootleggers in the past 20+ years. We listen out of love of his music, not a desire to cheat him out of what's rightly his. Hell, as many tapes as band members and friends had that he gave them, it's really no surprise everything is out there. Plus, sound techs will record a show or whatever and keep it, and it gets out later. It happens. It's the nature of the beast.

Yaaas, let all the fanactics join together to feed the beast, perfectly normal to steal his art - and his privacy. That's why Prince spent millions trying to stop people from doing it when he was alive and talked about it in interviews. He hated it but who cares about his feelings?

poppys said:

Yaaas, let all the fanactics join together to feed the beast, perfectly normal to steal his art - and his privacy. That's why Prince spent millions trying to stop people from doing it when he was alive and talked about it in interviews. He hated it but who cares about his feelings?

Exhibit A.

Aww hell! Reading the title, I thought this thread was about something NEW happening.

TrivialPursuit said:

poppys said:

Yaaas, let all the fanactics join together to feed the beast, perfectly normal to steal his art - and his privacy. That's why Prince spent millions trying to stop people from doing it when he was alive and talked about it in interviews. He hated it but who cares about his feelings?

Exhibit A.

Folks are allowed to disagree - except in your I'm always right world. That is the point of discussion

And regarding Exhibit A, if this was a court of law, y'all would lose, because it is stealing.

poppys said:

Yaaas, let all the fanactics join together to feed the beast, perfectly normal to steal his art - and his privacy. That's why Prince spent millions trying to stop people from doing it when he was alive and talked about it in interviews. He hated it but who cares about his feelings?

Despite listening to, and in the CD age purchasing, bootlegs, I must admit that your argument was strong when Prince was alive.

But now Prince is gone and I must also admit that I cannot care about feelings that he, sadly, does not and cannot have anymore.

databank said:

poppys said:

Yaaas, let all the fanactics join together to feed the beast, perfectly normal to steal his art - and his privacy. That's why Prince spent millions trying to stop people from doing it when he was alive and talked about it in interviews. He hated it but who cares about his feelings?

Despite listening to, and in the CD age purchasing, bootlegs, I must admit that your argument was strong when Prince was alive.

But now Prince is gone and I must also admit that I cannot care about feelings that he, sadly, does not and cannot have anymore.

I see your point, databank. Yes, sadly, Prince is gone and is no longer able to monitor the distribution of his art, but let's say you have a relative, perhaps a close relative like a mother, father or sibling, and they told you countless times to never part with one of their prized possessions, even after their death and even if they never put it in writing. Would you a) keep the item after their death as a way of honoring their wishes, or b) part with the item at your earliest convenience after their death because, in death, their wishes no longer matter?

databank said:

poppys said:

Yaaas, let all the fanactics join together to feed the beast, perfectly normal to steal his art - and his privacy. That's why Prince spent millions trying to stop people from doing it when he was alive and talked about it in interviews. He hated it but who cares about his feelings?

Despite listening to, and in the CD age purchasing, bootlegs, I must admit that your argument was strong when Prince was alive.

But now Prince is gone and I must also admit that I cannot care about feelings that he, sadly, does not and cannot have anymore.

Yes, I've thought of that. The theft of his intellectual property against his wishes and core beliefs when he was alive could likely be why he did not leave a will. Why make it even easier for the takers to mine his privacy even in death? People were so greedy before he passed, and still complaining on the daily now.

It's easy to say he's dead so it doesn't matter. Some use it as an excuse for guilt free whining to get what they want. He was so prolific in what he did give compared to other artists. People are going to do what they want. But I am going to push back when told it was perfectly fine all along - the nature of the beast - we just want to exploit the music. Yeah, well that music came out of a particular human being, a single soul.

Grog said:

databank said:

Despite listening to, and in the CD age purchasing, bootlegs, I must admit that your argument was strong when Prince was alive.

But now Prince is gone and I must also admit that I cannot care about feelings that he, sadly, does not and cannot have anymore.

I see your point, databank. Yes, sadly, Prince is gone and is no longer able to monitor the distribution of his art, but let's say you have a relative, perhaps a close relative like a mother, father or sibling, and they told you countless times to never part with one of their prized possessions, even after their death and even if they never put it in writing. Would you a) keep the item after their death as a way of honoring their wishes, or b) part with the item at your earliest convenience after their death because, in death, their wishes no longer matter?

Well, we don't know that Prince ever said any such thing to any people he gave those tapes to, certainly not the "after his death" part since he himself acknowledged once in an interview that he'd leave the vault behind him for other people to release. There is nothing that was leaked that isn't at Iron Mountain for the Estate to release unless it is established at some point that some circulating recordings have been destroyed by Prince in his lifetime.

.

Now let's say he had. Well, I send you to the story of Franz Kafka and his best friend Max Brod, who was clearly instructed to destroy Kafka's unpublished work after his death. Can I be mad at Brod for realizeing that what Kafka had produced was the work of a genius that would be among the most impactful and influential pieces of literature in human history? Can I blame him for publishing a book as mindblowing as The Castle? Can I blame him for betraying his friend and making him one of the most revered writers of all times after his death? I must admit I can't. Was Brod right? I don't know, and don't know either what I'd have done had I been in his position, but I know that by betraying his friend, he did a great service to the humankind.

.

Of course, Prince did become a legend in his lifetime and no unreleazsed material is going to change our perception of his works too deeply, the situation is quite different, but you see what I mean

poppys said:

databank said:

Despite listening to, and in the CD age purchasing, bootlegs, I must admit that your argument was strong when Prince was alive.

But now Prince is gone and I must also admit that I cannot care about feelings that he, sadly, does not and cannot have anymore.

Yes, I've thought of that. The theft of his intellectual property against his wishes and core beliefs when he was alive could likely be why he did not leave a will. Why make it even easier for the takers to mine his privacy even in death? People were so greedy before he passed, and still complaining on the daily now.

It's easy to say he's dead so it doesn't matter. Some use it as an excuse for guilt free whining to get what they want. He was so prolific in what he did give compared to other artists. People are going to do what they want. But I am going to push back when told it was perfectly fine all along - the nature of the beast - we just want to exploit the music. Yeah, well that music came out of a particular human being, a single soul.

Well to be honest most of us didn't make any profit off P's bootlegs, and some collectors even chose to leak it for free once the internet aloowed it. We're not exploiting the music, we're merely enjoying it. I certainly don't feel like I exploited the music by listening to it, which is all I ever did.

.

Prince could perfectly have left a will legally binding his heirs to destroy everything in the vault after he died, Amélie Nothomb, one of the most successful French writers who has a lot of unpublished works, claims she did. But P didn't (at least most of it: one late engineer, I can't remember who, claimed Prince instructed him to erase certain songs, and those may be lost forever), and as I wrote above, Prince even once said in a recent interview that he was fine with people releasing it after his death.

.

So what does it matters if it comes from collectors' tapes or the Estate? Technically every Estate release is now a bootleg, not in the legal sense but in the sense that Prince has no say on what is released an how.

.

He's gone and he chose to allow the music to remain for listeners to enjoy and scholars to study.

.

+ I don't necessarily believe in the afterlife but if there is such a thing, I doubt concsiousness remains in a state comparable to that of a living being, let alone that people are haunting the earth observing us and raging at what we're doing with the things they left. When my dad dies I'm gonna sell every goddamn fucking thing he owns because I don't care about any of it and he accepts it: dismantling his precious collections of all sorts while he's alive would break his heart and I'd never do that to him even if I could, but what does it matter when he's gone?

databank said:

poppys said:

Yes, I've thought of that. The theft of his intellectual property against his wishes and core beliefs when he was alive could likely be why he did not leave a will. Why make it even easier for the takers to mine his privacy even in death? People were so greedy before he passed, and still complaining on the daily now.

It's easy to say he's dead so it doesn't matter. Some use it as an excuse for guilt free whining to get what they want. He was so prolific in what he did give compared to other artists. People are going to do what they want. But I am going to push back when told it was perfectly fine all along - the nature of the beast - we just want to exploit the music. Yeah, well that music came out of a particular human being, a single soul.

Well to be honest most of us didn't make any profit off P's bootlegs, and some collectors even chose to leak it for free once the internet aloowed it. We're not exploiting the music, we're merely enjoying it. I certainly don't feel like I exploited the music by listening to it, which is all I ever did.

.

Prince could perfectly have left a will legally binding his heirs to destroy everything in the vault after he died, Amélie Nothomb, one of the most successful French writers who has a lot of unpublished works, claims she did. But P didn't (at least most of it: one late engineer, I can't remember who, claimed Prince instructed him to erase certain songs, and those may be lost forever), and as I wrote above, Prince even once said in a recent interview that he was fine with people releasing it after his death.

.

So what does it matters if it comes from collectors' tapes or the Estate? Technically every Estate release is now a bootleg, not in the legal sense but in the sense that Prince has no say on what is released an how.

.

He's gone and he chose to allow the music to remain for listeners to enjoy and scholars to study.

.

+ I don't necessarily believe in the afterlife but if there is such a thing, I doubt concsiousness remains in a state comparable to that of a living being, let alone that people are haunting the earth observing us and raging at what we're doing with the things they left. When my dad dies I'm gonna sell every goddamn fucking thing he owns because I don't care about any of it and he accepts it: dismantling his precious collections of all sorts while he's alive would break his heart and I'd never do that to him even if I could, but what does it matter when he's gone?

Much of this is you arguing with yourself, go ahead on. Material was stolen from Prince so you could enjoy it - fine. That, or the fact that some didn't make a buck off of it has nothing to do with if it was right to steal from someone who clearly did not want to be stolen from. The fact that it's out there is secondary.

The stuff about your dad has nothing to do with my post, that was someone else.

I get that you are very cerebral. Maybe Prince was/is a conduit to you expressing the feelings side of yourself, I don't know. Maybe you can't live without needing all of it - every last drop. But that isn't healthy anyway.

Again - I am never going to agree that it was a-okay to thief the man for his work - be it for cash or pleasure - we are just going to have to disagree on that. That is why this is a discussion, not a book with one author.

poppys said:

databank said:

Well to be honest most of us didn't make any profit off P's bootlegs, and some collectors even chose to leak it for free once the internet aloowed it. We're not exploiting the music, we're merely enjoying it. I certainly don't feel like I exploited the music by listening to it, which is all I ever did.

.

Prince could perfectly have left a will legally binding his heirs to destroy everything in the vault after he died, Amélie Nothomb, one of the most successful French writers who has a lot of unpublished works, claims she did. But P didn't (at least most of it: one late engineer, I can't remember who, claimed Prince instructed him to erase certain songs, and those may be lost forever), and as I wrote above, Prince even once said in a recent interview that he was fine with people releasing it after his death.

.

So what does it matters if it comes from collectors' tapes or the Estate? Technically every Estate release is now a bootleg, not in the legal sense but in the sense that Prince has no say on what is released an how.

.

He's gone and he chose to allow the music to remain for listeners to enjoy and scholars to study.

.

+ I don't necessarily believe in the afterlife but if there is such a thing, I doubt concsiousness remains in a state comparable to that of a living being, let alone that people are haunting the earth observing us and raging at what we're doing with the things they left. When my dad dies I'm gonna sell every goddamn fucking thing he owns because I don't care about any of it and he accepts it: dismantling his precious collections of all sorts while he's alive would break his heart and I'd never do that to him even if I could, but what does it matter when he's gone?

Much of this is you arguing with yourself, go ahead on. Material was stolen from Prince so you could enjoy it - fine. That, or the fact that some didn't make a buck off of it has nothing to do with if it was right to steal from someone who clearly did not want to be stolen from. The fact that it's out there is secondary.

The stuff about your dad has nothing to do with my post, that was someone else.

I get that you are very cerebral. Maybe Prince was/is a conduit to you expressing the feelings side of yourself, I don't know. Maybe you can't live without needing all of it - every last drop. But that isn't healthy anyway.

Again - I am never going to agree that it was a-okay to thief the man for his work - be it for cash or pleasure - we are just going to have to disagree on that. That is why this is a discussion, not a book with one author.

I'm not arguing with myself I'm having a conversation with you, thank you. And I'm having some solid points about the post-mortem context, which was part of the argument.

.

Now when it comes to live artists we can argue about the ethics of bootlegging and leaking. I didn't say it was right, or to put it another way I do not believe it's ethical to release a living artist's work without their consent, whether legally or illegally. I just said that most of us didn't steal anything or make profit from anything, which is true. Now was it right to purchase illegal records? IDK, maybe not. Sometimes you feel like it's OK to break the rules, and IDK that it's right but I know tribunals do make a difference between manufacturer/seller and buyer when it comes to bootlegs. Is it right to listen to or download bootlegs for free online? IDK either. But I don't feel guilty about it, there, I said it. Now if you ask me whether I would have publicly leaked, let alone sold a tape Prince or an associate would have given me, I guess probably not, at least certainly not in his lifetime.

.

Now IDK: haven't you ever listened to any bootleg? If you have, do you feel bad about it?

.

The stuff about my dad has everything to do with what we're talking about which is should we act towards the dead and their property as if they were alive. Just because you take another, different but comparable example does not mean it's off-topic. I wouldn't have brought that up in a bootlegs thread when P was alive. Dude, c'mon

.

Now when it comes to needing every drop, honestly that may sound surprising but I don't care that much anymore on a personal level. I'd be very happy to have more Prince releases, I'm not gonna lie, but am I gonna listen to them as much as I used to? No. I didn't listen to any release or bootleg from the last few years a tenth as many times as I would have 15 years ago. Not that I like P's music less than I did, I still love it, but I've had and listened to so much of it, for 30 years... I also need to listen to a lot of other things, there's a lot of great music out there. But yeah, of course I want the stuff out, and as much as can be, it's a matter of principle because P is an important artist and even if I don't listen to it over and over, I'll still be very happy to discover it and listen to it every once in a while.

.

And IDK what being "cerebral" means. Sometimes it's OK to digress a little or elaborate, even if it's just for fun on a message board

.

[Edited 5/9/19 10:53am]

If Prince cared about any of the things y'all are going back and forth about, he'd have left a Will or a Trust...he supposedly didn't. So I don't give a flying fig newton how I get to see and hear the stuff that I've wanted to see and hear for years. I just want to see and hear them. sooner rather than later because I'm not aging in reverse. If that's not where you are, good for you but do not stand in the way of happiness for the rest of us.

I'm not arguing with myself I'm having a conversation with you, thank you. And I'm having some solid points about the post-mortem context, which was part of the argument.

.

Now when it comes to live artists we can argue about the ethics of bootlegging and leaking. I didn't say it was right, or to put it another way I do not believe it's ethical to release a living artist's work without their consent, whether legally or illegally. I just said that most of us didn't steal anything or make profit from anything, which is true. Now was it right to purchase illegal records? IDK, maybe not. Sometimes you feel like it's OK to break the rules, and IDK that it's right but I know tribunals do make a difference between manufacturer/seller and buyer when it comes to bootlegs. Is it right to listen to or download bootlegs for free online? IDK either. But I don't feel guilty about it, there, I said it. Now if you ask me whether I would have publicly leaked, let alone sold a tape Prince or an associate would have given me, I guess probably not, at least certainly not in his lifetime.

.

Now IDK: haven't you ever listened to any bootleg? If you have, do you feel bad about it?

.

The stuff about my dad has everything to do with what we're talking about which is should we act towards the dead and their property as if they were alive. Just because you take another, different but comparable example does not mean it's off-topic. I wouldn't have brought that up in a bootlegs thread when P was alive. Dude, c'mon

.

Now when it comes to needing every drop, honestly that may sound surprising but I don't care that much anymore on a personal level. I'd be very happy to have more Prince releases, I'm not gonna lie, but am I gonna listen to them as much as I used to? No. I didn't listen to any release or bootleg from the last few years a tenth as many times as I would have 15 years ago. Not that I like P's music less than I did, I still love it, but I've had and listened to so much of it, for 30 years... I also need to listen to a lot of other things, there's a lot of great music out there. But yeah, of course I want the stuff out, and as much as can be, it's a matter of principle because P is an important artist and even if I don't listen to it over and over, I'll still be very happy to discover it and listen to it every once in a while.

.

And IDK what being "cerebral" means. Sometimes it's OK to digress a little or elaborate, even if it's just for fun on a message board

Agree. Cerebral means you live in your head a lot. Your ID of databank is an example and I've read many of your posts, you are a very intelligent person who loves Prince. That was not a diss, just an observation. As someone who is very cerebral myself sometimes, I can relate.

But some of your arguments are personal deal making. Thieving from Prince hurt him for whatever reasons of the heart, and I have no doubt his feelings about that were valid. It's not an unusual reaction for a human being to not like being stolen from. Especially one who was SO generous with his gift in the first place. There is no CEO on the planet that tolerates being stolen from well. Why should Artists be any different? I really already said what I thought about this topic so maybe we should just hug it out.

&

[Edited 5/9/19 12:45pm]

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

If Prince cared about any of the things y'all are going back and forth about, he'd have left a Will or a Trust...he supposedly didn't. So I don't give a flying fig newton how I get to see and hear the stuff that I've wanted to see and hear for years. I just want to see and hear them. sooner rather than later because I'm not aging in reverse. If that's not where you are, good for you but do not stand in the way of happiness for the rest of us.

Um, okay. NONE of us know some of that stuff and if you don't like the discussion, don't worry about it.

poppys said:

I'm not arguing with myself I'm having a conversation with you, thank you. And I'm having some solid points about the post-mortem context, which was part of the argument.

.

Now when it comes to live artists we can argue about the ethics of bootlegging and leaking. I didn't say it was right, or to put it another way I do not believe it's ethical to release a living artist's work without their consent, whether legally or illegally. I just said that most of us didn't steal anything or make profit from anything, which is true. Now was it right to purchase illegal records? IDK, maybe not. Sometimes you feel like it's OK to break the rules, and IDK that it's right but I know tribunals do make a difference between manufacturer/seller and buyer when it comes to bootlegs. Is it right to listen to or download bootlegs for free online? IDK either. But I don't feel guilty about it, there, I said it. Now if you ask me whether I would have publicly leaked, let alone sold a tape Prince or an associate would have given me, I guess probably not, at least certainly not in his lifetime.

.

Now IDK: haven't you ever listened to any bootleg? If you have, do you feel bad about it?

.

The stuff about my dad has everything to do with what we're talking about which is should we act towards the dead and their property as if they were alive. Just because you take another, different but comparable example does not mean it's off-topic. I wouldn't have brought that up in a bootlegs thread when P was alive. Dude, c'mon

.

Now when it comes to needing every drop, honestly that may sound surprising but I don't care that much anymore on a personal level. I'd be very happy to have more Prince releases, I'm not gonna lie, but am I gonna listen to them as much as I used to? No. I didn't listen to any release or bootleg from the last few years a tenth as many times as I would have 15 years ago. Not that I like P's music less than I did, I still love it, but I've had and listened to so much of it, for 30 years... I also need to listen to a lot of other things, there's a lot of great music out there. But yeah, of course I want the stuff out, and as much as can be, it's a matter of principle because P is an important artist and even if I don't listen to it over and over, I'll still be very happy to discover it and listen to it every once in a while.

.

And IDK what being "cerebral" means. Sometimes it's OK to digress a little or elaborate, even if it's just for fun on a message board

Agree. Cerebral means you live in your head a lot. Your ID of databank is an example and I've read many of your posts, you are a very intelligent person who loves Prince. That was not a diss, just an observation. As someone who is very cerebral myself sometimes, I can relate.

But some of your arguments are personal deal making. Thieving from Prince hurt him for whatever reasons of the heart, and I have no doubt his feelings about that were valid. It's not an unusual reaction for a human being to not like being stolen from. Especially one who was SO generous with his gift in the first place. There is no CEO on the planet that tolerates being stolen from well. Why shoud Artists be any different? I really already said what I thought about this topic so maybe we should just hug it out.

&

[Edited 5/9/19 11:21am]

Thx for defining what u meant by cerebral, we're cool

Deep down when it comes to the morality of stealing unreleased material and hurting the artist's feelings I think we agree, at least when it comes to a living artist. No argument here.

And yeah, I'm probably making deals with myself to justify things I do while knowing they're wrong to some extent, I won't argue with that either. I do the same when it comes to illegal downloads in general. I try not to do it with every wrong thing I do or feel like doing, but when it comes to music my greed is too high

databank said:

poppys said:

Agree. Cerebral means you live in your head a lot. Your ID of databank is an example and I've read many of your posts, you are a very intelligent person who loves Prince. That was not a diss, just an observation. As someone who is very cerebral myself sometimes, I can relate.

But some of your arguments are personal deal making. Thieving from Prince hurt him for whatever reasons of the heart, and I have no doubt his feelings about that were valid. It's not an unusual reaction for a human being to not like being stolen from. Especially one who was SO generous with his gift in the first place. There is no CEO on the planet that tolerates being stolen from well. Why shoud Artists be any different? I really already said what I thought about this topic so maybe we should just hug it out.

&

Thx for defining what u meant by cerebral, we're cool

Deep down when it comes to the morality of stealing unreleased material and hurting the artist's feelings I think we agree, at least when it comes to a living artist. No argument here.

And yeah, I'm probably making deals with myself to justify things I do while knowing they're wrong to some extent, I won't argue with that either. I do the same when it comes to illegal downloads in general. I try not to do it with every wrong thing I do or feel like doing, but when it comes to music my greed is too high

Proverbs 9:17 Stolen water is sweeter. Stolen bread tastes better.

I just looked up that saying, didn't know it was from the bible. I've always said it because of my pets coveting each other's food.

[Edited 5/9/19 14:21pm]

databank said:

Grog said:

I see your point, databank. Yes, sadly, Prince is gone and is no longer able to monitor the distribution of his art, but let's say you have a relative, perhaps a close relative like a mother, father or sibling, and they told you countless times to never part with one of their prized possessions, even after their death and even if they never put it in writing. Would you a) keep the item after their death as a way of honoring their wishes, or b) part with the item at your earliest convenience after their death because, in death, their wishes no longer matter?

Well, we don't know that Prince ever said any such thing to any people he gave those tapes to, certainly not the "after his death" part since he himself acknowledged once in an interview that he'd leave the vault behind him for other people to release. There is nothing that was leaked that isn't at Iron Mountain for the Estate to release unless it is established at some point that some circulating recordings have been destroyed by Prince in his lifetime.

.

Now let's say he had. Well, I send you to the story of Franz Kafka and his best friend Max Brod, who was clearly instructed to destroy Kafka's unpublished work after his death. Can I be mad at Brod for realizeing that what Kafka had produced was the work of a genius that would be among the most impactful and influential pieces of literature in human history? Can I blame him for publishing a book as mindblowing as The Castle? Can I blame him for betraying his friend and making him one of the most revered writers of all times after his death? I must admit I can't. Was Brod right? I don't know, and don't know either what I'd have done had I been in his position, but I know that by betraying his friend, he did a great service to the humankind.

.

Of course, Prince did become a legend in his lifetime and no unreleazsed material is going to change our perception of his works too deeply, the situation is quite different, but you see what I mean

Maybe I'm slow today (not enough coffee yet, perhaps), but did you answer either the "a" or "b" question I posed. Using Kafka as an evasive technique is clever but it is still nothing short of evasive. Nothing in your response comes close to answering a very simple hypothetical question. Besides, whether you realize it or not, Kafka is much better known for "The Metamorphosis" and The Trial today than The Castle. It's not his fault, of course, but that's just the way it is. Brod could have heeded his Kafka's wishes and Kafka's legacy would not have suffered. It's an apples to oranges comparison.

Grog said:

databank said:

Well, we don't know that Prince ever said any such thing to any people he gave those tapes to, certainly not the "after his death" part since he himself acknowledged once in an interview that he'd leave the vault behind him for other people to release. There is nothing that was leaked that isn't at Iron Mountain for the Estate to release unless it is established at some point that some circulating recordings have been destroyed by Prince in his lifetime.

.

Now let's say he had. Well, I send you to the story of Franz Kafka and his best friend Max Brod, who was clearly instructed to destroy Kafka's unpublished work after his death. Can I be mad at Brod for realizeing that what Kafka had produced was the work of a genius that would be among the most impactful and influential pieces of literature in human history? Can I blame him for publishing a book as mindblowing as The Castle? Can I blame him for betraying his friend and making him one of the most revered writers of all times after his death? I must admit I can't. Was Brod right? I don't know, and don't know either what I'd have done had I been in his position, but I know that by betraying his friend, he did a great service to the humankind.

.

Of course, Prince did become a legend in his lifetime and no unreleazsed material is going to change our perception of his works too deeply, the situation is quite different, but you see what I mean

Maybe I'm slow today (not enough coffee yet, perhaps), but did you answer either the "a" or "b" question I posed. Using Kafka as an evasive technique is clever but it is still nothing short of evasive. Nothing in your response comes close to answering a very simple hypothetical question. Besides, whether you realize it or not, Kafka is much better known for "The Metamorphosis" and The Trial today than The Castle. It's not his fault, of course, but that's just the way it is. Brod could have heeded his Kafka's wishes and Kafka's legacy would not have suffered. It's an apples to oranges comparison.

Why am I being accused of all sorts of things today?

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I named the Castle because it's my favorite of the three you mentioned and it's considered a masterpiece too, but anyway The Trial was also published by Brod after Kafka died, and as far as I know, Metamorphosis went pretty unnoticed when first published. By every account that I'm aware of, the works Kafka published in his lifetime would probably have faded into obscurity if not for Brod. Now IDK, I'm no Kafka specialist, but that's what I've always read and heard everywhere. I believe it is the consensus among scholars.

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So it was not an evasive technique, it was just me trying to address the topic at hand from a few other perspectives (which you did, too, by asking me your question), but you're right, I didn't directly answer your hypothetical question, sorry, so I will try to. Only I can't just pick a or b.

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Let's say I have a relative, perhaps a close relative like a mother, father or sibling, and they told me countless times to never part with one of their prized possessions, even after their death...

1/ Do I want to keep that thing in the first place? And can I do it easily? I mean it's not the same if it's a small thing like a ring or a bigger one like a car or a house. If so then I'd say yes and do it, if not I'd say I can't and I won't. That's what I did with my dad but he wasn't asking me to keep one thing, he wanted me to keep every goddamn thing he has, which makes no sense.

2/ Now if I say yes, I can and will, then at some point in my life, for any reason that appears important to me then, I may happen that I change my mind and part with the thing. IDK, if I must get to the bottom of it I believe the living are more important than the dead, if only because you can't hurt the dead but the living can definitely hurt.

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So I'm sorry I couldn't not answer your question with a or b, but I hope I've answered it

Grog said:

Rehearsal tapes and all? Who had access to this stuff? I know I probably shouldn't care but for some reason I'm torn between being pissed off and not being able to look away.

Who has access to this stuff? The stuff has been leaking since day one, and at one point that Thing Uh Mah Jigger called the Internet let people upload stuff. So if one person has a tape Prince let leak, which he did all the time, then it can be anywhere around the world with the advent of that Internet Thing.

databank said:

Grog said:

Rehearsal tapes and all? Who had access to this stuff? I know I probably shouldn't care but for some reason I'm torn between being pissed off and not being able to look away.

Is there anything on YT that hasn't been circulating and/or bootlegged? I think people here would have noticed.

I see you joined the Org a decade ago, certainly you must know that for decades now, unreleased songs, rehearsals, soundchecks and live shows have been circulating among fans.

The ten disc set of Jughead outtakes, and the Bambi Tapes with TC Ellis' 225 takes of Bambi have not yet leaked...stay tuned

TrivialPursuit said:

Grog said:

Rehearsal tapes and all? Who had access to this stuff? I know I probably shouldn't care but for some reason I'm torn between being pissed off and not being able to look away.

Why would you be pissed off? Are you wanting to be angry about something? Don't take up the self-righteous banner that some fans do about "I simply wil not listen to bootlegs". Puh-leeze, yes you will. We all do. For me, the ethics lay in not paying for bootlegs. You can trade them, listen to them, and if the estate puts out better copies then you buy them. otherwise, enjoy the music and stop with the "I'm torn" business. You're fighting to be upset and missing out on pleasure.

And who has access to them? Everyone who's ever given them to the bootleggers in the past 20+ years. We listen out of love of his music, not a desire to cheat him out of what's rightly his. Hell, as many tapes as band members and friends had that he gave them, it's really no surprise everything is out there. Plus, sound techs will record a show or whatever and keep it, and it gets out later. It happens. It's the nature of the beast.

Listen to Prince's interview with George Lopez in 2014 and see how the creator felt about the nature of the beast. Why was it Ok to pick a musician's pocket? At least when he was alive? Would you walk into someone's store and steal from them?