We all know that P worshipped women & gave them endless career opportunities. Outside of the sphere of music he opened doors for photographers, creatives, designers, P..Park staff & many others. In this respect the man was incredible & his legacy on this front is firmly in tact & very much in keeping on where we are now.

That said when I now look at the songs/images/videos from day 1 through to say 2002 in particular some of it makes me cringe! The list is endless from Vanity 6, treatment of Apollonia in P. Rain, the Sexy MF video, raping Lady Cab driver [!] & many, many others. The message in some cases is filled with his own purple logic...Sexy MF shows a woman being subservient BUT what she does with her mind is what makes her a Sexy MF !! I could write for pages on this but y'all get the gist!

I would love your honest perspectives on this especially from the ladies on here. Do you feel uncomfortable OR is it just a case of context of the time?

Over to you.

Do you find the current portrayal of women in the majority of hip-hop music 'dated'? Incidentally, I always interpreted 'Sexy MF' to be predominantly cerebral. And I'd say this was an age of moralistic policing, puritanism and shaming, rather than genuine equality.

Well you can, and people have, make an argument that Prince very much supported women throughout his entire career, more so than most of his contemporaries.

As it is I'd say his work is strong enough to stand up to criticism so if someone wants to try and #metoo his work with a surface level investigation let them. Decent criticism is about asking questions, not passing judgments.

Besides, what is the difference between dated and of its time? If his 80's stuff looks and sounds like it comes from the 1980's then good, it does.

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

We all know that P worshipped women & gave them endless career opportunities. Outside of the sphere of music he opened doors for photographers, creatives, designers, P..Park staff & many others. In this respect the man was incredible & his legacy on this front is firmly in tact & very much in keeping on where we are now.

That said when I now look at the songs/images/videos from day 1 through to say 2002 in particular some of it makes me cringe! The list is endless from Vanity 6, treatment of Apollonia in P. Rain, the Sexy MF video, raping Lady Cab driver [!] & many, many others. The message in some cases is filled with his own purple logic...Sexy MF shows a woman being subservient BUT what she does with her mind is what makes her a Sexy MF !! I could write for pages on this but y'all get the gist!

I would love your honest perspectives on this especially from the ladies on here. Do you feel uncomfortable OR is it just a case of context of the time?

Over to you.

Not at all. 3 things:

-

1. In his art/music, Prince portrayed himself as "powerless" with women waaaay more often than he portrayed himself as domineering.

-

2.

It was never okay to abuse/rape/lord over women. The early 80's may seem like a long time ago (depending on your age) but it was NOT okay to abuse/demean women. Prince is a child of the 60's...this was at the peak of the women's rights movement that was much more seismic and impactful than the current #metoo movement. You can look at many of his pro-women lyrics and (as you pointed out) his actual treatment of women. Think about all of the females that talk about how empowering he was.

-

3. Prince's music/narratives/lyrics are largely fiction. He DID take a hit a big criticism for misogynistic ideas in his lyrics, and scenes in Purple Rain. This happened throughout the 80's and 90's. Again, based on works of fiction. This is like criticizing George Lucas for having Darth Vader victimize and torture Princess Leia. Is George Lucas sexist for portraying someone domineering over a woman in a work of fiction.

[Edited 3/1/19 6:19am]

No it does not.

Prince has placed women in high positions of power in his companies and within his work. He was always respectul to them and wasnt a lech. Its important to seperate the man and the myth/product.Evn still, when Prince did change the direction of his output as a grown man, many of the online fans decried it, criticized him and his motivators for such, and wanted him to be slutty and dirty (read misogynisitc).

skywalker said:

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

We all know that P worshipped women & gave them endless career opportunities. Outside of the sphere of music he opened doors for photographers, creatives, designers, P..Park staff & many others. In this respect the man was incredible & his legacy on this front is firmly in tact & very much in keeping on where we are now.

That said when I now look at the songs/images/videos from day 1 through to say 2002 in particular some of it makes me cringe! The list is endless from Vanity 6, treatment of Apollonia in P. Rain, the Sexy MF video, raping Lady Cab driver [!] & many, many others. The message in some cases is filled with his own purple logic...Sexy MF shows a woman being subservient BUT what she does with her mind is what makes her a Sexy MF !! I could write for pages on this but y'all get the gist!

I would love your honest perspectives on this especially from the ladies on here. Do you feel uncomfortable OR is it just a case of context of the time?

Over to you.

Not at all. 3 things:

-

1. In his art/music, Prince portrayed himself as "powerless" with women waaaay more often than he portrayed himself as domineering.

-

2.

It was never okay to abuse/rape/lord over women. The early 80's may seem like a long time ago (depending on your age) but it was NOT okay to abuse/demean women. Prince is a child of the 60's...this was at the peak of the women's rights movement that was much more seismic and impactful than the current #metoo movement. You can look at many of his pro-women lyrics and (as you pointed out) his actual treatment of women. Think about all of the females that talk about how empowering he was.

-

3. Prince's music/narratives/lyrics are largely fiction. He DID take a hit a big criticism for misogynistic ideas in his lyrics, and scenes in Purple Rain. This happened throughout the 80's and 90's. Again, based on works of fiction. This is like criticizing George Lucas for having Darth Vader victimize and torture Princess Leia. Is George Lucas sexist for portraying someone domineering over a woman in a work of fiction.

[Edited 3/1/19 6:19am]

About your third point: I did read some discussions ponting out on why, being that Princess Leia is at the beginning of the story one of the most powerful on the resistance; yet she's the one who has to act as damsel in distress asking for Luke Skywalker's help; and then she shows up scandily-clad in the third film before getting her groove back... just sayin'...

[Edited 3/2/19 10:05am]

Matthaus said:

skywalker said:

Not at all. 3 things:

-

1. In his art/music, Prince portrayed himself as "powerless" with women waaaay more often than he portrayed himself as domineering.

-

2.

It was never okay to abuse/rape/lord over women. The early 80's may seem like a long time ago (depending on your age) but it was NOT okay to abuse/demean women. Prince is a child of the 60's...this was at the peak of the women's rights movement that was much more seismic and impactful than the current #metoo movement. You can look at many of his pro-women lyrics and (as you pointed out) his actual treatment of women. Think about all of the females that talk about how empowering he was.

-

3. Prince's music/narratives/lyrics are largely fiction. He DID take a hit a big criticism for misogynistic ideas in his lyrics, and scenes in Purple Rain. This happened throughout the 80's and 90's. Again, based on works of fiction. This is like criticizing George Lucas for having Darth Vader victimize and torture Princess Leia. Is George Lucas sexist for portraying someone domineering over a woman in a work of fiction.

[Edited 3/1/19 6:19am]

About your third point: I did read some discussions ponting out on why, being that Princess Leia is at the beginning of the story one of the most powerfl on the resistance; yet she's the one who has to act as damsel in distress asking for Luke Skywalker's help; and then she shows up scandily-clad in the third film before getting her groove back... just sayin'...

But she never asked for Lukes help. She asked for Kenobis and it wasnt for strength reasons. She was also strong enough to give in to the black probes torture. And she was scantily clad because of Jabbas lechery, which was part of his character. She also choked his ass out.

OperatingThetan said:

Do you find the current portrayal of women in the majority of hip-hop music 'dated'? Incidentally, I always interpreted 'Sexy MF' to be predominantly cerebral. And I'd say this was an age of moralistic policing, puritanism and shaming, rather than genuine equality.

100% yes.

Even in 1984, his treatment of women was questioned. See the dumpster scene in PR. Wendy's BJ act. and even the "Gangsta Glam" era "You, you and you get in the car!" etc...

As he got older, you can see he got much better. (see Better with Time, work with 3rd Eye Girl)

[Edited 3/1/19 7:24am]

emesem said:

Even in 1984, his treatment of women was questioned. See the dumpster scene in PR. Wendy's BJ act. and even the "Gangsta Glam" era "You, you and you get in the car!" etc...

As he got older, you can see he got much better. (see Better with Time, work with 3rd Eye Girl)

[Edited 3/1/19 7:24am]

I think Gangsta Glam era was his trend following period of the rap scene era - D&P / Love symbol.

He tried to put his purple twist on this - using the gold microphone shaped like a gun.

He was a confusing soul!

I wonder whether his plan was to get back in to the rap fans hearts through his new musical style & send out a more positive message...in his unique way?

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

emesem said:

Even in 1984, his treatment of women was questioned. See the dumpster scene in PR. Wendy's BJ act. and even the "Gangsta Glam" era "You, you and you get in the car!" etc...

As he got older, you can see he got much better. (see Better with Time, work with 3rd Eye Girl)

[Edited 3/1/19 7:24am]

I think Gangsta Glam era was his trend following period of the rap scene era - D&P / Love symbol.

He tried to put his purple twist on this - using the gold microphone shaped like a gun.

He was a confusing soul!

I wonder whether his plan was to get back in to the rap fans hearts through his new musical style & send out a more positive message...in his unique way?

He was not a confusing soul lol. He was chasing trends. Getting back into rap fans hearts? lol.. Damn, got me sounding/acting like Bart now smh.

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

emesem said:

Even in 1984, his treatment of women was questioned. See the dumpster scene in PR. Wendy's BJ act. and even the "Gangsta Glam" era "You, you and you get in the car!" etc...

As he got older, you can see he got much better. (see Better with Time, work with 3rd Eye Girl)

[Edited 3/1/19 7:24am]

I think Gangsta Glam era was his trend following period of the rap scene era - D&P / Love symbol.

He tried to put his purple twist on this - using the gold microphone shaped like a gun.

He was a confusing soul!

I wonder whether his plan was to get back in to the rap fans hearts through his new musical style & send out a more positive message...in his unique way?

The microphone gun was artistic symbolism - words of love and power, creativity and inspiration as a weapon.

Prince was incorporating (then) current trends and sounds into his music and had massive chart success as a result.

rdhull said:

Matthaus said:

About your third point: I did read some discussions ponting out on why, being that Princess Leia is at the beginning of the story one of the most powerfl on the resistance; yet she's the one who has to act as damsel in distress asking for Luke Skywalker's help; and then she shows up scandily-clad in the third film before getting her groove back... just sayin'...

But she never asked for Lukes help. She asked for Kenobis and it wasnt for strength reasons. She was also strong enough to give in to the black probes torture. And she was scantily clad because of Jabbas lechery, which was part of his character. She also choked his ass out.

Yes.

OperatingThetan said:

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

I think Gangsta Glam era was his trend following period of the rap scene era - D&P / Love symbol.

He tried to put his purple twist on this - using the gold microphone shaped like a gun.

He was a confusing soul!

I wonder whether his plan was to get back in to the rap fans hearts through his new musical style & send out a more positive message...in his unique way?

The microphone gun was artistic symbolism - words of love and power, creativity and inspiration as a weapon.

Prince was incorporating (then) current trends and sounds into his music and had massive chart success as a result.

I got a Tec-9 too and it's called my brain

rdhull said:

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

I think Gangsta Glam era was his trend following period of the rap scene era - D&P / Love symbol.

He tried to put his purple twist on this - using the gold microphone shaped like a gun.

He was a confusing soul!

I wonder whether his plan was to get back in to the rap fans hearts through his new musical style & send out a more positive message...in his unique way?

He was not a confusing soul lol. He was chasing trends. Getting back into rap fans hearts? lol.. Damn, got me sounding/acting like Bart now smh.

I get it, but didn't Prince always show his influences? I mean he often took what was "hot" and "current" and did his own version. Even in the 80's.

-

You call it, "chasing trends" but check it out: He didn't invent new wave or the Adam Ant thing, he certainly did his own version of it. The Stray Cats headed up the early 80's Rockabilly movement, and Prince jumped on this trend with "Delirious" "Horny Toad" etc.

-

In 1986 's he actually kinda copied Bowie's "Let's Dance" mojo/style which in itself was a throwback to James Brown, 60's soul, etc. Point being, Bowie did it 2-3 years before Prince.

-

This is not a knock on Prince...it's one of my favorite things about him. The fact that he drew from all kinds of music styles/sounds/looks and combined them, made them purple, and uniquely and singularly Prince. His take on rap/hip hop was NOT like everyone else and it was his own thing. "Chasing trends" and making them sound like Prince was nothing new.

[Edited 3/1/19 8:43am]

He tended to love women. He wasn't sexist the way metal and rap guys are. He did like those cookie cutter gals and gave their skank asses records that truly sucked, while bailing on people with talent like Mavis.

skywalker said:

rdhull said:

He was not a confusing soul lol. He was chasing trends. Getting back into rap fans hearts? lol.. Damn, got me sounding/acting like Bart now smh.

I get it, but didn't Prince always show his influences? I mean he often took what was "hot" and "current" and did his own version. Even in the 80's.

-

You call it, "chasing trends" but check it out: He didn't invent new wave or the Adam Ant thing, he certainly did his own version of it. The Stray Cats headed up the early 80's Rockabilly movement, and Prince jumped on this trend with "Delirious" "Horny Toad" etc.

-

In 1986 's he actually kinda copied Bowie's "Let's Dance" mojo/style which in itself was a throwback to James Brown, 60's soul, etc. Point being, Bowie did it 2-3 years before Prince.

-

This is not a knock on Prince...it's one of my favorite things about him. The fact that he drew from all kinds of music styles/sounds/looks and combined them, made them purple, and uniquely and singularly Prince. His take on rap/hip hop was NOT like everyone else and it was his own thing. "Chasing trends" and making them sound like Prince was nothing new.

[Edited 3/1/19 8:43am]

In the 80s he wore his 'influences' on his sleeve and made them his in his own way...with rap, he 'chased'. Early rap influence showed up in I Bitch etc but the gangster shit n the 90's were more forced in style, look, presentation. To me there's a huge difference between I Bitch and The Symbol album material. All imho.

rdhull said:

skywalker said:

I get it, but didn't Prince always show his influences? I mean he often took what was "hot" and "current" and did his own version. Even in the 80's.

-

You call it, "chasing trends" but check it out: He didn't invent new wave or the Adam Ant thing, he certainly did his own version of it. The Stray Cats headed up the early 80's Rockabilly movement, and Prince jumped on this trend with "Delirious" "Horny Toad" etc.

-

In 1986 's he actually kinda copied Bowie's "Let's Dance" mojo/style which in itself was a throwback to James Brown, 60's soul, etc. Point being, Bowie did it 2-3 years before Prince.

-

This is not a knock on Prince...it's one of my favorite things about him. The fact that he drew from all kinds of music styles/sounds/looks and combined them, made them purple, and uniquely and singularly Prince. His take on rap/hip hop was NOT like everyone else and it was his own thing. "Chasing trends" and making them sound like Prince was nothing new.

[Edited 3/1/19 8:43am]

In the 80s he wore his 'influences' on his sleeve and made them his in his own way...with rap, he 'chased'. Early rap influence showed up in I Bitch etc but the gangster shit n the 90's were more forced in style, look, presentation. To me there's a huge difference between I Bitch and The Symbol album material. All imho.

"In the 80s he wore his 'influences' on his sleeve and made them his in his own way...with rap, he 'chased'."

-

What's the difference?

-

Again, the argument has been made: Prince copied A LOT of the trends that were going on in the 80's. New Romantic styles, Rockabilly, new wave, etc. He WAS chasing trends and doing them the Prince way. You are calling it wearing his influences on his sleeve?

-

In the 90's he's incorporating elements of "current" trends...rap and hip hop and new jack....but in a Prince way. "Gett Off" was very much like a lot of hip/hop and house music of the time....but it was also VERY and UNIQUELY Prince.

-

Bottom line: You can say that there is a big difference between Irresistable Bitch and the material on ....this is largely true. However, NOBODY in 1992 sounded like the album. That whole thing is totally and uniquley Prince. It's not just rap, it's rock opera, jazz, pop, etc. Sure, it borrows elements from music that was going on at the time, but it definitely didn't sound or look like anyone other than Prince.

[Edited 3/1/19 10:04am]

[Edited 3/1/19 10:05am]

skywalker said:

rdhull said:

In the 80s he wore his 'influences' on his sleeve and made them his in his own way...with rap, he 'chased'. Early rap influence showed up in I Bitch etc but the gangster shit n the 90's were more forced in style, look, presentation. To me there's a huge difference between I Bitch and The Symbol album material. All imho.

"In the 80s he wore his 'influences' on his sleeve and made them his in his own way...with rap, he 'chased'."

-

What's the difference?

-

Again, the argument has been made: Prince copied A LOT of the trends that were going on in the 80's. New Romantic styles, Rockabilly, new wave, etc. He WAS chasing trends and doing them the Prince way. You are calling it wearing his influences on his sleeve?

-

In the 90's he's incorporating elements of "current" trends...rap and hip hop and new jack....but in a Prince way. "Gett Off" was very much like a lot of hip/hop and house music of the time....but it was also VERY and UNIQUELY Prince.

-

Bottom line: You can say that there is a big difference between Irresistable Bitch and the material on ....this is largely true. However, NOBODY in 1992 sounded like the album. That whole thing is totally and uniquley Prince. It's not just rap, it's rock opera, jazz, pop, etc. Sure, it borrows elements from music that was going on at the time, but it definitely didn't sound or look like anyone other than Prince.

[Edited 3/1/19 10:04am]

[Edited 3/1/19 10:05am]

1. I said what the difference was without even having to be asked

2. Im talking about the rap elements of the Symbol album, notnthe whole thing. C'mon now.

3. I stand by my stance that the 80s early influence were worn on his sleeve and a natrual part of him to include it in his music and at his attempts at it and the 90's bs was bs because it wasnt an authentic influence but 'chasing trends' which is why IB is better than the rap elements of The Symbol Album.

4. The End

rdhull said:

1. I said what the difference was without even having to be asked

2. Im talking about the rap elements of the Symbol album, notnthe whole thing. C'mon now.

3. I stand by my stance that the 80s early influence were worn on his sleeve and a natrual part of him to include it in his music and at his attempts at it and the 90's bs was bs because it wasnt an authentic influence but 'chasing trends' which is why IB is better than the rap elements of The Symbol Album.

4. The End

Cool. I definitely don't think this as cut and dry as you make it out to be, but it point #4 makes it clear that you aren't interested in it. Thanks for the chat, though.

NM

[Edited 3/1/19 11:02am]

skywalker said:

rdhull said:

1. I said what the difference was without even having to be asked

2. Im talking about the rap elements of the Symbol album, notnthe whole thing. C'mon now.

3. I stand by my stance that the 80s early influence were worn on his sleeve and a natrual part of him to include it in his music and at his attempts at it and the 90's bs was bs because it wasnt an authentic influence but 'chasing trends' which is why IB is better than the rap elements of The Symbol Album.

4. The End

Cool. I definitely don't think this as cut and dry as you make it out to be, but it point #4 makes it clear that you aren't interested in it. Thanks for the chat, though.

I am interested but youre not hearing me and discounting whatever I say.

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

We all know that P worshipped women & gave them endless career opportunities. Outside of the sphere of music he opened doors for photographers, creatives, designers, P..Park staff & many others. In this respect the man was incredible & his legacy on this front is firmly in tact & very much in keeping on where we are now.

That said when I now look at the songs/images/videos from day 1 through to say 2002 in particular some of it makes me cringe! The list is endless from Vanity 6, treatment of Apollonia in P. Rain, the Sexy MF video, raping Lady Cab driver [!] & many, many others. The message in some cases is filled with his own purple logic...Sexy MF shows a woman being subservient BUT what she does with her mind is what makes her a Sexy MF !! I could write for pages on this but y'all get the gist!

I would love your honest perspectives on this especially from the ladies on here. Do you feel uncomfortable OR is it just a case of context of the time?

Over to you.

This post is absolutely clueless.

Prince has consistently, from the beginning, put women in positions of power. He's almost always submissive to them (minus maybe 1 or 2 instances). Even with something like "Bambi", where people see it as homophobic, he still leaves it up to her. He pleads with her, tries every catcall in the book, but we never hear that she gave into his lusty desires to bone her. "Automatic" - women in control. "Darling Nikki" - she was in control and left his ass. He's so in love he does care where she takes him, just "take me with u". His sister dominated him in another song, becoming his pimp and dominatrix. Prince often sidesteps the obvious 1-2 punch of fucking on the first date, often vying to just spend time with a woman to get to know her, "tonight we make love with only words, girls first", "we'll try to imagine what silence looks like" (one of his best lines ever, by the way). He pleads his way into a girl's life and most intimate soul, asking "If I was your girlfriend, would you tell me?". The list is endless.

As far as the way Vanity or Apollonia dressed, they opted for that gig. They could have protested. They could have done something else. They were women in power, holding their sexuality as their own weapon of choice. Hell "Nasty Girl" ends with "that's it? Wake me when you're done." DISS! Vanity continued her sexy vixen look well past that one album. You think "Pretty Mess" is about French onion dip?

This thread is a non-starter.

Not at all. MeToo is questionable in many ways. And looking back into history with current ideas is not expedient.

What did Prince do that portrayed women wrong?

rdhull said:

skywalker said:

Cool. I definitely don't think this as cut and dry as you make it out to be, but it point #4 makes it clear that you aren't interested in it. Thanks for the chat, though.

I am interested but youre not hearing me and discounting whatever I say.

Sorry if I came off that way. I feel like I did acknowledge many of your points including:

-

-Irresistable Bitch "rapping" is way different than the rapping on .

-I acknowledged that Prince totally incorporated elements of early 90's rap/newjack/hip hop into his sound/style/stage show in the early 90's.

-I know the popular narrative is that Prince started "chasing trends" once hip/hop became really popular by incorporatiing it in his music. I don't deny this is true.

-

What I feel like you aren't responding to is the fact that Prince jumped on bandwagons of all sorts in the 80's as well. You said "he wore his influences on his sleeve." I agree if you are talking about Jimi/James/Sly etc.

-

However, you have yet to address the idea that he totally jumped on the following trendy bandwagons of the early 80's: Sounds/Styles of the New Romantic movement, Bowie's 1983 look/homage to 60's soul music, and his numerous Rockabilly songs/styles like that had already been made popular by groups like The Stray Cats.

TrivialPursuit said:

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

We all know that P worshipped women & gave them endless career opportunities. Outside of the sphere of music he opened doors for photographers, creatives, designers, P..Park staff & many others. In this respect the man was incredible & his legacy on this front is firmly in tact & very much in keeping on where we are now.

That said when I now look at the songs/images/videos from day 1 through to say 2002 in particular some of it makes me cringe! The list is endless from Vanity 6, treatment of Apollonia in P. Rain, the Sexy MF video, raping Lady Cab driver [!] & many, many others. The message in some cases is filled with his own purple logic...Sexy MF shows a woman being subservient BUT what she does with her mind is what makes her a Sexy MF !! I could write for pages on this but y'all get the gist!

I would love your honest perspectives on this especially from the ladies on here. Do you feel uncomfortable OR is it just a case of context of the time?

Over to you.

This post is absolutely clueless.

Prince has consistently, from the beginning, put women in positions of power. He's almost always submissive to them (minus maybe 1 or 2 instances). Even with something like "Bambi", where people see it as homophobic, he still leaves it up to her. He pleads with her, tries every catcall in the book, but we never hear that she gave into his lusty desires to bone her. "Automatic" - women in control. "Darling Nikki" - she was in control and left his ass. He's so in love he does care where she takes him, just "take me with u". His sister dominated him in another song, becoming his pimp and dominatrix. Prince often sidesteps the obvious 1-2 punch of fucking on the first date, often vying to just spend time with a woman to get to know her, "tonight we make love with only words, girls first", "we'll try to imagine what silence looks like" (one of his best lines ever, by the way). He pleads his way into a girl's life and most intimate soul, asking "If I was your girlfriend, would you tell me?". The list is endless.

As far as the way Vanity or Apollonia dressed, they opted for that gig. They could have protested. They could have done something else. They were women in power, holding their sexuality as their own weapon of choice. Hell "Nasty Girl" ends with "that's it? Wake me when you're done." DISS! Vanity continued her sexy vixen look well past that one album. You think "Pretty Mess" is about French onion dip?

This thread is a non-starter.

Yes to all this.