OnlyNDaUsa said:

databank said:

You're not the Estate, what you do in the privacy of your computer does not harm Prince's legacy nor does it affect other listeners.

I do agree my self edits have nothing to do with what the estate chooses to do... but I do think that they are free to do whatever they want and I SEE that is would be BEST to consider an edit. And I sumbit it would be pretty easy to do so. I think that if he would have released it (and I think he said he would) that we would have removed it...

Taking that out of the song for release will have a negable impact on his legacy... leaving it in could have a neagative impact...

What he said once after the original 2011 version only had been released was "there are 3 versions of it, eventually all will be released". At the time we all thought he spoke about the 1982 version and its 1988 remix on top of the 2011 remake, but then he released the instrumental remix and the horns version of the 2011 cut, so I suspect he meant "3 versions of the remake", entirely ignoring previous recordings, because then we have 5 versions not 3 altogether.

Also, it is interesting to note that the 2011 remake happened after 2 unauthorized "covers" (as much as you can cover an unreleased song) became popular on YT, one I can't remember the artist but it had a music video, the other was live on stage by the band !!!. I suspect Prince relaized that and decided he needed to reappropriate his song before others would make it more popular than himself.

OnlyNDaUsa said:

TheFman said:

If they'd left out/changed just 1 word, I'd never ever buy it. How it was made is how it was supposed to be heard. No discussion.

that is an odd standard as you have no idea if that was even his final version or if he decided to do another version without it....

By definition anything he did not release in his lifetime was not "supposed to be heard" anyway, and the versions of that one we were "supposed to hear" were the 3 versions from 2011-2013. But this can't be used as an argument to block that song anymore than to block everything unreleased from being released.

Typically, the Dance Electric on PR Deluxe was not even P's final unreleased version, it was an earlier mix before the one he sent to André , but even the final Prince version we were not supposed to hear: based on Duane's book Prince was very clear on the fact that TDE was "not for him", so the version we were supposed to hear was André's, period. Same can be said about Computer Blue, We Can Fuck and everything on Originals, not to mention all the songs he chose not to release at all in any form whatsoever.

So this not a valid argument, all we know is that if it's in the vault in any form or shape, or if he gave away cassettes at some point in his life, he tacitely admitted the material was to survive him.

databank said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

I do agree my self edits have nothing to do with what the estate chooses to do... but I do think that they are free to do whatever they want and I SEE that is would be BEST to consider an edit. And I sumbit it would be pretty easy to do so. I think that if he would have released it (and I think he said he would) that we would have removed it...

Taking that out of the song for release will have a negable impact on his legacy... leaving it in could have a neagative impact...

What he said once after the original 2011 version only had been released was "there are 3 versions of it, eventually all will be released". At the time we all thought he spoke about the 1982 version and its 1988 remix on top of the 2011 remake, but then he released the instrumental remix and the horns version of the 2011 cut, so I suspect he meant "3 versions of the remake", entirely ignoring previous recordings, because then we have 5 versions not 3 altogether.

Also, it is interesting to note that the 2011 remake happened after 2 unauthorized "covers" (as much as you can cover an unreleased song) became popular on YT, one I can't remember the artist but it had a music video, the other was live on stage by the band !!!. I suspect Prince relaized that and decided he needed to reappropriate his song before others would make it more popular than himself.

The artist with the video is Yes! Yes! That video was HAAAAWT! IIRC, they filmed it with a cell phone. Their cover was great, but they fudged some of the lyrics they were not able to decipher.

[Edited 5/10/19 5:12am]

sulls said:

databank said:

What he said once after the original 2011 version only had been released was "there are 3 versions of it, eventually all will be released". At the time we all thought he spoke about the 1982 version and its 1988 remix on top of the 2011 remake, but then he released the instrumental remix and the horns version of the 2011 cut, so I suspect he meant "3 versions of the remake", entirely ignoring previous recordings, because then we have 5 versions not 3 altogether.

Also, it is interesting to note that the 2011 remake happened after 2 unauthorized "covers" (as much as you can cover an unreleased song) became popular on YT, one I can't remember the artist but it had a music video, the other was live on stage by the band !!!. I suspect Prince relaized that and decided he needed to reappropriate his song before others would make it more popular than himself.

The artist with the video is Yes! Yes! That video was HAAAAWT! IIRC, they filmed it with a cell phone. Their cover was great, but they fudged some of the lyrics they were not able to decipher.

[Edited 5/10/19 5:12am]

Yes! Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/w...IP8voBjqdE

I also think it was quite a decent "cover". I wonder who those people are, I'm not aware of them releasing anything else.

And here's !!!'s live version: https://www.youtube.com/w...jbWckL_UkQ

They also "covered" the unreleased original version of IB: https://www.youtube.com/w...XGJ5RFcdEA

databank said:

sulls said:

The artist with the video is Yes! Yes! That video was HAAAAWT! IIRC, they filmed it with a cell phone. Their cover was great, but they fudged some of the lyrics they were not able to decipher.

[Edited 5/10/19 5:12am]

Yes! Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/w...IP8voBjqdE

I also think it was quite a decent "cover". I wonder who those people are, I'm not aware of them releasing anything else.

Sulls sez, "YES! YES!"

JorisE73 said:

Really?!
I guess all these people who want the rape lyrics in Extra Loveable removed weren't around when Prince's whole carreer was based on 'Shock and awe' tactics and 'light version dark' thoughts.
And all these no brain and weak people who get all whiny and offended by everything nowadays should just go away.
What's next ? Removing Sexy MF from becuase it might offend millenial mothers??

databank said:

mediumdry said:

Thanks for taking the time of this lengthy reply

.

The enjoyment of the art is a two way street to me. Sure, it's nice to have an artist's vision (although, in Prince's case, it was a shared vision by Prince and Warner Brothers, if it was just Prince we'd have seen much more music and in a different form. Does that make WB bad? I think it's a double edged sword.

.

.

Now to the 2 things I strongly disagree with:

.

1/Prince did not "butcher" JIR, he made an artistic choice that was his to make. IDK about you and I'm not saying it concerns you because we haven't discussed the matter thoroughly, but many people who are not artists themselves do not understand the creative process at all, I've realized this my whole life when

.

It's pretty much a fact around here that Prince butchered the start of Joy In Repetition. To cut and paste the segue from Eye No/Alphabet St and ruin the start of JIR was among many of his post Purple Rain follies. Since the seque was on Lovesexy, did it really need to be there too? Why not put the seque on all of his future albums? Tony M was also an "Artistic Choice," but you won't find too many on here submitting the "Mr Money Minder" speech to anyone at the Library of Congress. That cold errie Linn Drum intro is amazing, and for me, one of the few Holy Grails of outtakes I'd like in great quality.

Prince would do things he thought were mind blowing brilliance that were simple ordinary things. I believe The Fixx and Nirvana were among the first to put a "hidden" track on a cd, by the time Prince got around to it, nothing but a lame fad that made it tougher to put the track on a mix cd. But he continued to do it like a child that is unaware the same temper tantrum won't continue to work. But that was Prince. Absolute Genius with some really dumb decisions.

stillwaiting said:

databank said:

It's pretty much a fact around here that Prince butchered the start of Joy In Repetition.

.

OK, so now if many people believe something it becomes a fact? Er.... no! I'm sorry but it's a fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/...ad_populum

.

To cut and paste the segue from Eye No/Alphabet St and ruin the start of JIR was among many of his post Purple Rain follies. Since the seque was on Lovesexy, did it really need to be there too? Why not put the seque on all of his future albums?

.

Yet another fallacy: why would Prince put it on all his future albums? Prince recycled many things many times, just because you didn't like that one does not make the whole process wrong. But OK, he could have recorded another crowd noise in 1989, if that'd have been enough to make you happy... But IDK, it does not appear to be your problem in the first place with that intro, is it? I thought it was the cold eerie linn drum?

.

Tony M was also an "Artistic Choice," but you won't find too many on here submitting the "Mr Money Minder" speech to anyone at the Library of Congress.

.

More appeal to popularity and nonsense (you don't submit parts of songs to the Library of Congress, and the LOC selects work because they are historically and culturally significant, not only because they are deemed good or bad).

.

That cold errie Linn Drum intro is amazing, and for me, one of the few Holy Grails of outtakes I'd like in great quality.

.

Yes, cool, I hope the Estate releases it. I want the version of Can't Stop This Feeling I got that is 5 seconds longer because those 5 seconds drive me crazy, we all want stuff. So what do we do? Each of us gets mad at Prince for not giving us the 5 seconds we'd have liked to have?

.

Prince would do things he thought were mind blowing brilliance that were simple ordinary things. I believe The Fixx and Nirvana were among the first to put a "hidden" track on a cd, by the time Prince got around to it, nothing but a lame fad that made it tougher to put the track on a mix cd.

.

May I have a link to the interview where Prince said he was innovating and mind blowing with his first hidden track (on NPS I believe)? I mean IDK, maybe he said it and I forgot or never read that interview and if so you have a point because he made a fool of himself, but if not I fear we're having another fallacy here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man). + if any artist that does any thing that's been done before is a fool then we can stop listening to music altogether.

.

But he continued to do it like a child that is unaware the same temper tantrum won't continue to work. But that was Prince. Absolute Genius with some really dumb decisions.

.

Sure, you certainly know better than he did. OK, what can I say? Maybe you should work as a producer, it's likely many labels would be happy to hire you if you're a better producer than Prince. (that was a straw man too, BTW, because you didn't make any such claim, but you see my point I guess)

.

So, well, I'm sorry, please understand that I'm not attacking you, but what you said, we're cool and just arguing about ideas. And it so happens that what you said was everything but solid arguments. It was mostly fallacies and it's not my fault.

.

To this I'll add one thing, that everyone here seems to have forgotten, which is that as far as we know Prince only considered releasing JIR once before GB, and it was on CB in 1986. And there where is everyone's beloved linn drum intro? Oh, crossfading from The Ball and fucked-up by a party crowd that so happens to be, oh, wow, wait, the same party crowd as on Lovesexy. That's funny, why did Prince use that sample again in 1986 after he used it in 1988? That's time travel! Then why not put that segue on all his previous albums?

.

See? I kept that last one for the end because, well...

.

But OK, let's get serious and forget about Lovesexy, what can we learn from this except that Prince could time travel? We can learn that less than 5 months after recording it, when considering to put it on a record, Prince already segued it off a party song ending with a crowd noise, so it appears that very early on if not from the very beginning Prince decided that this song made more sense narratively, I guess, obviously, in connection to its lyrics, if segued from a party song, with the character entering the noisy club and suddenly being alone in his "bubble" with the "love me" girl in the middle of a noisy crowd that we can see but cannot hear anymore. Very cinematic. Now was it the right artistic decision? I don't fucking know. Personally I find this to be a pretty smart narrative move and I find the linn opening to be a complete downer by comparison but maybe it's just me. However, from a "Prince in 1986/1989" perpective, I find this waaaay more interesting than yet another linn intro à la 1999/Purple Rain. See? It's not just about what you like, it's first and foremost about why did he do it? Prince was not waking in the morning wondering "what would Stillwaiting want me to do and how could I please him?", he woke up wondering "what kind of story can I tell and what do I think is the best way to tell it?". That does not mean every choice he made was good or the best, but given his achievements and skills overall, it calls for, IDK, at least some humility?

.

.

Peace

[Edited 5/10/19 14:26pm]

stillwaiting said:

databank said:

It's pretty much a fact around here that Prince butchered the start of Joy In Repetition. To cut and paste the segue from Eye No/Alphabet St and ruin the start of JIR was among many of his post Purple Rain follies. Since the seque was on Lovesexy, did it really need to be there too? Why not put the seque on all of his future albums? Tony M was also an "Artistic Choice," but you won't find too many on here submitting the "Mr Money Minder" speech to anyone at the Library of Congress. That cold errie Linn Drum intro is amazing, and for me, one of the few Holy Grails of outtakes I'd like in great quality.

Prince would do things he thought were mind blowing brilliance that were simple ordinary things. I believe The Fixx and Nirvana were among the first to put a "hidden" track on a cd, by the time Prince got around to it, nothing but a lame fad that made it tougher to put the track on a mix cd. But he continued to do it like a child that is unaware the same temper tantrum won't continue to work. But that was Prince. Absolute Genius with some really dumb decisions.

"Joy In Repetition" was recorded WAY BEFORE the LoveSexy album & was a WIDELY circulated bootleg before it appeared on the "Graffiti Bridge" soundtrack.

pricetag said:

This thread: 1 page of news, 5 pages of bullshit.

10000 times AGREE with U !

pricetag said:

This thread: 1 page of news, 5 pages of bullshit.

It's too bad you feel that way. I actually see it the other way round: the news may well be bullshit while the discussion thus far has been fascinating. This is one of the best threads I've read in ages.

databank said:

And here's !!!'s live version: https://www.youtube.com/w...jbWckL_UkQ

They also "covered" the unreleased original version of IB: https://www.youtube.com/w...XGJ5RFcdEA

so basically ANYONE can cover an unreleased tune???

jfenster said:

databank said:

And here's !!!'s live version: https://www.youtube.com/w...jbWckL_UkQ

They also "covered" the unreleased original version of IB: https://www.youtube.com/w...XGJ5RFcdEA

so basically ANYONE can cover an unreleased tune???

In concert? Probably... and that IB cover was indeed the unreleased version as it starts with "All my partners ask me..."

But others have posted clips of people doing unreleased Prince songs live.


But in this case the songs had been published so a lyrical variation or a new arraignment (in a live song) is not something you could really do much about.

jfenster said:

databank said:

And here's !!!'s live version: https://www.youtube.com/w...jbWckL_UkQ

They also "covered" the unreleased original version of IB: https://www.youtube.com/w...XGJ5RFcdEA

so basically ANYONE can cover an unreleased tune???

Theorically no, IIRC you need a "right of first performance" or something like that (I forgot the exact legal term), i.e. the writer(s)' authorization to first release the song. Then only, once properly released once, can a song be covered by anyone.

.

But it is to be noted that both those "covers" remain unreleased: one was recorded and posted on YT but not sold (and eventually removed by YT at the request of P's publishing company at the time I remember), and the other was a low quality fanmade video recording of a live show by an established band. Neither were sold on CD or online stores.

.

But I think Prince for once realized that prosecuting some obscure unknown artist (no one knows who Yes Yes! is and they didn't do anything else AFAIK) or a well respected, world famous indie band mayby was not the best strategy in terms of publicity.

.

Electric Intercourse was also "covered" at least thrice before release, but again on YT only.

.

However there was some obscure European band signed on WB who "covered" In A Large Room With No Light on their album in 1994 (as "Welcome 2 The Rat Race IIRC, I'm sure someone here can point us towards which band it was) and somehow got away with it (most likely by literally stealing the song from P, i.e. no credits nor royalties, P probably did not notice back then). But given how Prince promptly reacted to Extaloveable being "stolen" from him by rerecording it, I've always wondered if he didn't eventually learn about Large Room 15 years later and released his own rerecording in 2009 to "fix" it. Similarly, it seems he began playing Mutiny/Ice Cream Castles as well as Cool in 2011/2012 as a reaction to fDeluxe and The Original 7ven, sort of as to say "this is my shit".

[Edited 5/11/19 12:26pm]

^I also vaguely remember reading about a band rerecording the whole Black Album before it was finally released, but I'm not sure if true or me imagining this, and if true if that was officially released or just some tape circulating among fans

databank said:

^I also vaguely remember reading about a band rerecording the whole Black Album before it was finally released, but I'm not sure if true or me imagining this, and if true if that was officially released or just some tape circulating among fans

yeah yeah I used to have a copy... (digital) it was nothing worth tracking down. But I do not know if it was official released or not. They may have had a loop hole since it was published but never sold?

OnlyNDaUsa said:

databank said:

^I also vaguely remember reading about a band rerecording the whole Black Album before it was finally released, but I'm not sure if true or me imagining this, and if true if that was officially released or just some tape circulating among fans

yeah yeah I used to have a copy... (digital) it was nothing worth tracking down. But I do not know if it was official released or not. They may have had a loop hole since it was published but never sold?

I'm pretty sure they'd have lost in a court of law

You 'member the name of the band, or what it sounded like? I'm curious now.

databank said:

airth said:

pricetag said:

This thread: 1 page of news, 5 pages of bullshit.

It's too bad you feel that way. I actually see it the other way round: the news may well be bullshit while the discussion thus far has been fascinating. This is one of the best threads I've read in ages.

...there's always one.

OnlyNDaUsa said:

jfenster said:

so basically ANYONE can cover an unreleased tune???

In concert? Probably... and that IB cover was indeed the unreleased version as it starts with "All my partners ask me..."

But others have posted clips of people doing unreleased Prince songs live.


But in this case the songs had been published so a lyrical variation or a new arraignment (in a live song) is not something you could really do much about.

Didn't Elvis Costello cover Moonbeam Levels before it was released? I wonder if Prince had to give permission for that.

SchlomoThaHomo said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

In concert? Probably... and that IB cover was indeed the unreleased version as it starts with "All my partners ask me..."

But others have posted clips of people doing unreleased Prince songs live.


But in this case the songs had been published so a lyrical variation or a new arraignment (in a live song) is not something you could really do much about.

Didn't Elvis Costello cover Moonbeam Levels before it was released? I wonder if Prince had to give permission for that.

I just checked and he just performed it twice live, no big deal, same as !!!

databank said:

SchlomoThaHomo said:

Didn't Elvis Costello cover Moonbeam Levels before it was released? I wonder if Prince had to give permission for that.

I just checked and he just performed it twice live, no big deal, same as !!!

.
Perhaps Costello stopped playing it as he didn't get Prince's permission or he was stopped by Prince's lawyers. You cannot legally cover an unreleased song without the composer's permission.

Kares said:

databank said:

I just checked and he just performed it twice live, no big deal, same as !!!

.
Perhaps Costello stopped playing it as he didn't get Prince's permission or he was stopped by Prince's lawyers. You cannot legally cover an unreleased song without the composer's permission.

Maybe. I think it went unnoticed, + it was during his short stint with The Roots, so I guess ?uestlove was behind it.

soladeo1 said:

If it’ll make u happy is one of my Holy Grail Tracjs!!!

me too!

JorisE73 said:

Really?!
I guess all these people who want the rape lyrics in Extra Loveable removed weren't around when Prince's whole career was based on 'Shock and awe' tactics and 'light version dark' thoughts.
And all these no brain and weak people who get all whiny and offended by everything nowadays should just go away.
What's next ? Removing Sexy MF from becuase it might offend millenial mothers??

Exactly!