fabriziovenerandi said:

databank said:

I suggest you read the 1999 Deluxe thread and what I wrote there about Extraloveable.

It's not about sounding great. It's not about pleasing listeners. It's not about giving you a nice song to listen to. It's about Prince's work as part of human heritage, one of the most important musical artists of our time and his work being properly preserved and studied.

Every action on a work of art is an intervention that alters the work in question, which should only be the artist's prerogative. And this is actually worse in a way than Justin Timberlake remixing a Prince song because at least then we'd know, it'd be clear and straight. Here you have people fucking up with Prince's works for the sheer sake of making money and not telling us, trying to fool us into believing that this was his vision, his work, when it wasn't (and it doesn't even try hard, the way this mix does not try to imitate the original, superior Family mix shows how little they care and how little they know).

As someone who is an artist, love arts, respect great artists and above all believe Prince's works are important to preserve, I consider this a moral abomination and I'll denounce it at every opportunity.

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I do not agree. After Prince's death, every action taken on his work is a betrayal. We cannot know what was the idea behind every single song, we can try to deduce it from the documentation that Prince left, but he too lived his music as a continuous project in progress. It is not true that the preservation of the songs as they were recorded is * certainly * the most respectful method of dealing with those songs. It is simply the most archivally valid one. But - honestly - I don't think Prince wanted his music to be transmitted to archivists. I believe that Prince wanted his music to be used to the fullest. This * fullest * is not an objective value, it depends on who - in this moment - is in the condition of being able to betray the music of Prince, I mean, transforming it from an archive to an enjoyable product. I think everyone has to deal with this thing, the only one who could have given us Prince's music as Prince wanted was Prince.

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f.

To make myself clearer, I do not believe that what Prince wants is an element to consider anymore. Prince's prerogrative was to keep stuff for himself and/erase it when he was alive, but what he chose to leave behind either because he released it, gave a copy to someone or kept it in the vault now belongs to humankind. I mean of course legally it belongs to the Estate and they are free to release, remix or even burn every tape if they want to, but I'm trying to think at a more historic scale here.

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Maybe not every line of text written by Goethe or Kafka reflects what they wanted or their greatest talents as writers, but we ain't gonna ask Stephen King to rewrite them so they become more enjoyable or more "finished". Same way we probably have music sheets by Beethoven or Bach that may not be finished or extraordinary works, but we ain't gonna tell Philip Glass to "finish" them so the orchestra can play a nicer piece. And no, we ain't gonna draw sunglasses on an obscure DiVinci painting just because the girl would look better with sunglasses. What we have is what we have, as is. All of the above is public domain so technically everyone can remix or rewrite it, but the originals are carefully preserved, studied and transmitted to the next generation, who is free to enjoy it as such. You don't have a Wagner Estate who decides they can rewrite a music sheet and release it and that's all you'll ever get of it because the original is in their vault and no one has access to it.

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It's not about what Prince would have wanted. Prince is dead.

It's not about what we want. Everybody wants something different anyway.

All of this is irrelevant to me. It's about, as you said yourself, archives, it's about preserving and studying what we have as it is. All the better for it if we enjoy those little demos or soundchecks and as I said after all why not have someone remix them if you must, for commercial reasons since the sad reality of it is that the Estate is in this for the money, but if so the originals have to be released and it must be absolutely clear which is which. Not to say I want a fucking Justin Timberlake remix, but that as long as the original is there, I can live with it. Of course NC2U is out there in bootleg form, but it should not be in bootleg form. Worst case they should have released both original and Howe Mix and made it clear that the How Mix was posthumous.

databank said:

which is why with the rise of the digital age artists often chose to release a neat 30 to 45 minutes album over a longer but weaker one.

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Yeah, about that: https://pitchfork.com/the...pop-album/

stillwaiting said:

TrevorAyer said:

I think Dream FActory and Crystal Ball would be great "Record Store Day" releases. Camille as well.

Great idea, but you have to remember there is a lot of overlap.

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Still fucking better than the truncated 1999 from last year.

Romeoblu said:

Personally I think The from the vault disc on Purple Rain deluxe set was great. I never had any problems with the sound quality on any of the tracks. I agree that there were so many better choices than Piano and a Microphone 83 but I still think it's a great listen and was very well presented and was a worthy release. [Edited 5/1/19 7:01am]

Great minds think alike. Exactly my opinion as well...

Romeoblu said:

Personally I think The from the vault disc on Purple Rain deluxe set was great. I never had any problems with the sound quality on any of the tracks. I agree that there were so many better choices than Piano and a Microphone 83 but I still think it's a great listen and was very well presented and was a worthy release. [Edited 5/1/19 7:01am]

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I think there were problems in some songs (Our Destiny, Velvet Kitty Cat...) and a bad tracklist.

Why no Single yet ???

Romeoblu said:

Personally I think The from the vault disc on Purple Rain deluxe set was great. I never had any problems with the sound quality on any of the tracks. I agree that there were so many better choices than Piano and a Microphone 83 but I still think it's a great listen and was very well presented and was a worthy release. [Edited 5/1/19 7:01am]

I'm not an audiophile so I was fine with the sound quality on PR Deluxe. When it comes to the From The Vault & Previously Unreleased CD I had no problem with content, that was great but:

- Sequencing was poor, but OK let's admit it was just filling a CD with random songs and not trying to make it a great, album-like listeninge xperience as a whole. I can live with that.

- The drop-out on one channel of Computer Blue, while barely noticeable, is a pity.

- Someone whom I trust who has access to uncirculating material told me that based on what they had prior to the release, the segue between OD and RG is wrong. No definite proof of it, it could have been a later mix, but there are strong suspicions that WB had that mash-up from Jill's OD to P's RG and/or the separate Lisa OD and Prince RG and mishmashed both of those to make an attempt at recreating the original transition. If this is the case this is ridiculous, I'd rather have had Jill's version with the right segue, or both tracks separate.

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As for P&M83 I think it's great but it could be that more effort could have made to restoring the tape and improving its sound quality. But I'm totally happy with what we have: at least it's a cohesive listeninge xperience and it's been released as it was without any alteration.

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Then again of course there were other problems on PR Deluxe (the glitch on EC which is unacceptable, missing single edits and music videos, wrong recording dates on the booklet and liner notes), and 4ever has a major fuck-up which is that the single edit of Let's Work isn't the real one but a poor reconstruction. Add to that the NC2U fiasco and... well... It's not to say that it's all bad, but of course you can't help thinking that if it had all been curated proberly, none of this nonsense should have happened.

databank said:

Romeoblu said:

Personally I think The from the vault disc on Purple Rain deluxe set was great. I never had any problems with the sound quality on any of the tracks. I agree that there were so many better choices than Piano and a Microphone 83 but I still think it's a great listen and was very well presented and was a worthy release. [Edited 5/1/19 7:01am]

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As for P&M83 I think it's great but it could be that more effort could have made to restoring the tape and improving its sound quality. But I'm totally happy with what we have: at least it's a cohesive listeninge xperience and it's been released as it was without any alteration.

.

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The person in charge told me that they didn't want to perform any manipulation at all, their aim was to present the tape as it is. I don't necessarily agree with this but it is certainly one of the ethical approaches I can support.

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But what that approach ignored is the fact that Prince's tape recorder wasn't properly calibrated, it was running a bit slow – therefore the cassette, when played back on a properly calibrated machine will play a bit fast and higher in pitch. This is definitely something they should have fixed as the music on 'Pianon & A Microphone 1983' now sounds different (fast and higher in pitch) to how Prince played/sang and heard it back then. So in this case ignoring the fault of the original recording became a manipulation, while playing it back at the exact speed it was recorded with would've led to reaching the goal of "no manipulations".
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BartVanHemelen said:

stillwaiting said:

Great idea, but you have to remember there is a lot of overlap.

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Still fucking better than the truncated 1999 from last year.

I agree... now the original from back then is interesting...but why Now? And if I had bought that "Versace Experiencee" years ago... (I am not saying I could have but I did see it up for auction I have no idea what it sold for) I would be mad. They put out a 'rare' single a year or 2 ago... that I have and I am like wow thanks! (I also bid on that Pop Life thing but I got out bid I was not that interesting in it...) I do still want a 10" Mountains!

Kares said:

databank said:

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As for P&M83 I think it's great but it could be that more effort could have made to restoring the tape and improving its sound quality. But I'm totally happy with what we have: at least it's a cohesive listeninge xperience and it's been released as it was without any alteration.

.

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The person in charge told me that they didn't want to perform any manipulation at all, their aim was to present the tape as it is. I don't necessarily agree with this but it is certainly one of the ethical approaches I can support.

.
But what that approach ignored is the fact that Prince's tape recorder wasn't properly calibrated, it was running a bit slow – therefore the cassette, when played back on a properly calibrated machine will play a bit fast and higher in pitch. This is definitely something they should have fixed as the music on 'Pianon & A Microphone 1983' now sounds different (fast and higher in pitch) to how Prince played/sang and heard it back then. So in this case ignoring the fault of the original recording became a manipulation, while playing it back at the exact speed it was recorded with would've led to reaching the goal of "no manipulations".
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Interesting. Thx. I was told something else (that does not contradict what you said, more like complement it) but I am not at liberty to say it, just that it could have been better technically speaking.

If the "person in charge" is still in charge (not sure if you're talking Michael Howe or some uncredited engineer, and of course you don't have to name names publicly) is still involved and you're still in touch, maybe you could suggest they start paying attention to what some of us die-hard fans suggest in terms of quality control and curating

It could all be so much better...

This being said I listened to Make Up yesterday and I think a version with Prince on vocals could become an instant cult classic

Regardless, the tracklist of the collection could have been handled so much better by someone with a deep understanding of Prince's works and how to organize them to come-up with a cohesive listening experience. But I'll suspend my jusgement and wait until I hear it to decide, I certainly would never have believed the CB tracklist could have worked until I heard the final product.

shouldnt it be about what one wants to hear in their car?

I feel like in terms of track sequencing if we're arguing for a more "archival" and academic approach strictly chronological-order by recording date would be best, no? First thing I'll do when I get Originals is re-sequence chronologically with reference to PrinceVault.

love2thenines2003 said:

Why no Single yet ???

probably because tidal get the 14 day exclusive, so if there were to be a single,
it would probably show up on tidal?

i don't know.

databank said:

To make myself clearer, I do not believe that what Prince wants is an element to consider anymore. Prince's prerogrative was to keep stuff for himself and/erase it when he was alive, but what he chose to leave behind either because he released it, gave a copy to someone or kept it in the vault now belongs to humankind. I mean of course legally it belongs to the Estate and they are free to release, remix or even burn every tape if they want to, but I'm trying to think at a more historic scale here.

.

Maybe not every line of text written by Goethe or Kafka reflects what they wanted or their greatest talents as writers, but we ain't gonna ask Stephen King to rewrite them so they become more enjoyable or more "finished". Same way we probably have music sheets by Beethoven or Bach that may not be finished or extraordinary works, but we ain't gonna tell Philip Glass to "finish" them so the orchestra can play a nicer piece. And no, we ain't gonna draw sunglasses on an obscure DiVinci painting just because the girl would look better with sunglasses. What we have is what we have, as is. All of the above is public domain so technically everyone can remix or rewrite it, but the originals are carefully preserved, studied and transmitted to the next generation, who is free to enjoy it as such. You don't have a Wagner Estate who decides they can rewrite a music sheet and release it and that's all you'll ever get of it because the original is in their vault and no one has access to it.

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It's not about what Prince would have wanted. Prince is dead.

It's not about what we want. Everybody wants something different anyway.

All of this is irrelevant to me. It's about, as you said yourself, archives, it's about preserving and studying what we have as it is. All the better for it if we enjoy those little demos or soundchecks and as I said after all why not have someone remix them if you must, for commercial reasons since the sad reality of it is that the Estate is in this for the money, but if so the originals have to be released and it must be absolutely clear which is which. Not to say I want a fucking Justin Timberlake remix, but that as long as the original is there, I can live with it. Of course NC2U is out there in bootleg form, but it should not be in bootleg form. Worst case they should have released both original and Howe Mix and made it clear that the How Mix was posthumous.

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I understand your point of view. I think those are two different things: a) keep releasing Prince's album for fans and casual listeners, b) release the Vault archives for historical reasons. I think now Estates needs the a) : because it is more lucrative and because it is closer to Prince's spirit. Even when Prince released his parody of bootlegs, the Crystal Ball, he made 3 albums that are not a sterile archive, but 3 enjoing albums (editing, altering the tracks, and using a low-timing for each album <50)

There is a second thing I disagree with: the concept of "original". I think in Prince's archive we do not have originals: we have works, materials, variations. How many versions we have of the same song? How many different edit, fade out Prince made with his own tracks?

I make a simple example: where a track ends? If I have a 20 minutes version of a song, with 3 minutes of song and 17 very boring minutes of Prince playing with instrument for research reasons, where, now, I could decide to stop and release the song? Is the 20 minutes the "original", or not?
I don't think the longest choice is the right one anyway.

For this reason I used the "betrayal" term.

I hope Estate could find the right edge between a) and b): release "new" album of Prince music for the world, and release archives for long-term fans.

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f.

fabriziovenerandi said:

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There is a second thing I disagree with: the concept of "original". I think in Prince's archive we do not have originals: we have works, materials, variations. How many versions we have of the same song? How many different edit, fade out Prince made with his own tracks?

I make a simple example: where a track ends? If I have a 20 minutes version of a song, with 3 minutes of song and 17 very boring minutes of Prince playing with instrument for research reasons, where, now, I could decide to stop and release the song? Is the 20 minutes the "original", or not?

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I think it's very simple:
release the core (edited) version on albums aimed at the general public, but make Collectors' Editions with the full, unedited recordings. We certainly need the full versions and for the record: no "17 minutes of Prince playing instrumends for research reasons" are ever boring to me as a musician and as a Prince fan who studies his works.

databank said:

Kares said:

.

The person in charge told me that they didn't want to perform any manipulation at all, their aim was to present the tape as it is. I don't necessarily agree with this but it is certainly one of the ethical approaches I can support.

.
But what that approach ignored is the fact that Prince's tape recorder wasn't properly calibrated, it was running a bit slow – therefore the cassette, when played back on a properly calibrated machine will play a bit fast and higher in pitch. This is definitely something they should have fixed as the music on 'Pianon & A Microphone 1983' now sounds different (fast and higher in pitch) to how Prince played/sang and heard it back then. So in this case ignoring the fault of the original recording became a manipulation, while playing it back at the exact speed it was recorded with would've led to reaching the goal of "no manipulations".
.

Interesting. Thx. I was told something else (that does not contradict what you said, more like complement it) but I am not at liberty to say it, just that it could have been better technically speaking.

If the "person in charge" is still in charge (not sure if you're talking Michael Howe or some uncredited engineer, and of course you don't have to name names publicly) is still involved and you're still in touch, maybe you could suggest they start paying attention to what some of us die-hard fans suggest in terms of quality control and curating

It could all be so much better...

This being said I listened to Make Up yesterday and I think a version with Prince on vocals could become an instant cult classic

Regardless, the tracklist of the collection could have been handled so much better by someone with a deep understanding of Prince's works and how to organize them to come-up with a cohesive listening experience. But I'll suspend my jusgement and wait until I hear it to decide, I certainly would never have believed the CB tracklist could have worked until I heard the final product.

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Sure, P&AM83 could have been better technically (and as we have a 24bit version, it can still be improved for ourselves).
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And for the rest of what you wrote: Yes.

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TrevorAyer said:

I think Dream FActory and Crystal Ball would be great "Record Store Day" releases. Camille as well.

YES, definitely! Just look at the craze over the latest Bob Dylan lp on RSD, which was about 99% overlap with historical AND recently released material.

"Novelty" releases are perfect, and these projects deserve to be presented on their own.

Opps!

I oedered "The BeautfulOnes" and the CD at the same time. And now both have the same delivery day! What?! October 29th! But as I got the book for $22.87 that is okay...I will just go buy the CD on the 21...

Romeoblu said:

Amazon now have a picture of the inner gatefold for deluxe set.

Interesting, and yet more purple on every release!

Kares said:

darkroman said:

Even Prince knew Kate was way out of his league! !

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Don't be ridiculous. I love Kate Bush but that is a really ignorant statement.

It really is, since the original demo for "Why Should I Love U" is much different.
Prince's inputs as an arranger and performer are undeniable in the end result, like it or not.
It's Kate that was way up her ass, like Madonna: you can't guest Prince on your album.
Because you end up with a Prince song on your album, singing a background lead part.

darkroman said:

Romeoblu said:

Amazon now have a picture of the inner gatefold for deluxe set.

Interesting, and yet more purple on every release!

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Apparently the Estate's idea of a deluxe set is a "hardback"-version with the same content as the regular release.
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darkroman said:

Romeoblu said:

Amazon now have a picture of the inner gatefold for deluxe set.

Interesting, and yet more purple on every release!

Correct me if I'm wrong but none of the 3 non-WB songs appear on the pictures. If so, there was probably indeed a copyright problem with publishing pix of the Bangles, Rogers and Martika records

[Edited 5/2/19 4:44am]

databank said:

darkroman said:

Interesting, and yet more purple on every release!

Correct me if I'm wrong but none of the 3 non-WB songs appear on the pictures. If so, there was probably indeed a copyright problem with publishing pix of the Bangles, Rogers and Martika records

[Edited 5/2/19 4:44am]

Well in fairness there could be additional artwork on the inner bags or booklet if there is one.

I'd be interested to see if any cover shot, for an associated artist release, has made it onto the artwork that isn't featured on the album - that would be very expected by the Estate to make such an error!

Am I the only one who seems excited for this release? I know this is basically bare bones compared to all of us who have bootlegs, but I wanna give this a chance. I liked Piano and A Microphone so, i'm ready for this

GottaHaveFaith said:

Am I the only one who seems excited for this release? I know this is basically bare bones compared to all of us who have bootlegs, but I wanna give this a chance. I liked Piano and A Microphone so, i'm ready for this

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I'm very much looking forward to it, but can't say I'm excited. I'm hoping it will be the first step in the right direction, because we really do need that first step by now.

databank said:

GottaHaveFaith said:

I hope these times r wrong. I just reassociated myself w/ Sheila's Noon Rendezvous n it's a minute longer than it says for this release. Forget an extended version, the whole song at least would suffice, who knows. Still anxious 2 hear these (putting it milding ), but .