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Thread started 04/11/19 1:58pm

Mikado

The 1999/LRC segue has been destroyed :(

On Spotify (and Tidal, so I'm assuming most streaming services) after the second "Mommy, Why Does Everyone Have a Bomb"? it fades out before LRC - destroying the old segue that used to connect the two.

How fucking awful, right? At least I still have my CD....

A certain kind of mellow.
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Reply #1 posted 04/11/19 10:47pm

erik319

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Same thing happens on Google Play music when you play Girls & Boys on Parade. It's annoying.
blah blah blah
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Reply #2 posted 04/12/19 1:39am

olb99

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And this is why I stream my music from my own server and have multiple backups of my collection (both offline and online). I want to know exactly what I'm listening to. Am I listening to the imperfect 1998 remix of "Bitches Brew", the horrible noise-reduced version of 1990, or the perfect-sounding, non-remixed Japanese version of 2006? #rambling

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Reply #3 posted 04/12/19 6:20am

jaawwnn

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They also have the Kiss single version on Parade so no segue there either lol


Good thing we have our CD's and vinyl eh?

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Reply #4 posted 04/13/19 12:30am

databank

avatar

Those idiots have used the single "long edit" of 1999 instead of the real album version, that's why. I think it goes back to WB uploading the albums on iTunes over a decade ago, and it's never been corrected since. I wasn't aware of the Kiss situation. I find this really outrageous, this kind of disrespect for the original material, it's literally labels selling "fanmade" versions of albums to the audience and destroying the artist's legacy.

.

Not sure I understand the problem with G&B though: is it the single edit?

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Reply #5 posted 04/13/19 1:22am

Mikado

databank said:

Those idiots have used the single "long edit" of 1999 instead of the real album version, that's why. I think it goes back to WB uploading the albums on iTunes over a decade ago, and it's never been corrected since. I wasn't aware of the Kiss situation. I find this really outrageous, this kind of disrespect for the original material, it's literally labels selling "fanmade" versions of albums to the audience and destroying the artist's legacy.


.


Not sure I understand the problem with G&B though: is it the single edit?



I'd have to compare, but I'm pretty sure the streamed 1999 is identical to the original released version until the problematic fade. I wasn't even aware there was a formal edit that removed the fade.

I'm not even sure how someone could complain about this. Sad.
[Edited 4/13/19 1:22am]
A certain kind of mellow.
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Reply #6 posted 04/13/19 1:50am

databank

avatar

Mikado said:

databank said:

Those idiots have used the single "long edit" of 1999 instead of the real album version, that's why. I think it goes back to WB uploading the albums on iTunes over a decade ago, and it's never been corrected since. I wasn't aware of the Kiss situation. I find this really outrageous, this kind of disrespect for the original material, it's literally labels selling "fanmade" versions of albums to the audience and destroying the artist's legacy.

.

Not sure I understand the problem with G&B though: is it the single edit?

I'd have to compare, but I'm pretty sure the streamed 1999 is identical to the original released version until the problematic fade. I wasn't even aware there was a formal edit that removed the fade. I'm not even sure how someone could complain about this. Sad. [Edited 4/13/19 1:22am]

Last time I checked, Princevault missed it but it is in fact the version that was on the original 12'': it was dubbed "1999 (Album Version)" and was indeed similar to the album version except that it was, of course, edited at the end so to have a fade out instead of a brutal cut (since there is no break between it and LRC on the album).

I also have no idea how to signal this to either WB or the Estate. Both have email addresses of course but I suspect WB wouldn't give a fuck so maybe someone can write to the Estate and signal all three problems (once G&B has been solved).

[Edited 4/13/19 1:51am]

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Reply #7 posted 04/13/19 8:37am

Germanegro

I'm not surprised to hear about the messed-up endings and segues. I'mma say it again--these streaming services mainly suuuck, if you are a music fan. They dont make any music at all; don't help artists create music and pay them crap; they don't even really curate the stuff, as evidenced by the suuucky edits that they broadcast.

>

Streaming services buy and sell the stuff to allow maximum profit to themselves. The best that they can do for the musicians and music industry is to serve 'em as an advertising medium, so hurray for that, at least--talent gets get paid pennies per stream-rate while being given their public exposure.

>

I imagine that the Tidal service wouldn't mess with the editing crap that the other services do to Prince's songs.

>

At any rate, I wait for the day that most of those services turn into 'zines. Perhaps they already have!

crysball

[Edited 4/13/19 14:29pm]

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Reply #8 posted 04/13/19 12:10pm

databank

avatar

Germanegro said:

I'm not surprised to hear about the messed-up endings and segues. I'mma say it again--these streaming services mainly suuuck, if you are a music fan. They dont make any music at all; don't help artists create music and pay them crap; they don't even really curate the stuff, as evidenced by the suuucky edits that they broadcast.


>


Streaming services buy and sell the stuff to allow maximum profit to themselves. The best that they can do for the musicians and music industry is to serve 'em as an advertising medium, so hurray for that, at least--talent gets get paid pennies per stream-rate while being given their public exposure.


>


I imagine that the Tidal service wouldn't mess with the editing crap that the other services do to Prince's songs.


>


At any rate, I wait for the day that most of those services turn into 'zines. Perhaps they already have!


crysball


Read the OP again?
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Reply #9 posted 04/13/19 2:28pm

Germanegro

databank said:

Germanegro said:

I'm not surprised to hear about the messed-up endings and segues. I'mma say it again--these streaming services mainly suuuck, if you are a music fan. They dont make any music at all; don't help artists create music and pay them crap; they don't even really curate the stuff, as evidenced by the suuucky edits that they broadcast.

>

Streaming services buy and sell the stuff to allow maximum profit to themselves. The best that they can do for the musicians and music industry is to serve 'em as an advertising medium, so hurray for that, at least--talent gets get paid pennies per stream-rate while being given their public exposure.

>

I imagine that the Tidal service wouldn't mess with the editing crap that the other services do to Prince's songs.

>

At any rate, I wait for the day that most of those services turn into 'zines. Perhaps they already have!

crysball

Read the OP again?

>

>

>

>

Striking the inattentive comment.

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Reply #10 posted 04/13/19 11:56pm

databank

avatar

Germanegro said:

databank said:

Germanegro said: Read the OP again?

>

>

>

>

Striking the inattentive comment.

wink yes

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Reply #11 posted 04/14/19 8:50am

Germanegro

databank said:

Germanegro said:

>

>

>

>

Striking the inattentive comment.

wink yes

^^^Thanks, databank, for noticing my glaringly wrong assumption.

BTW, I have DOWNLOADED Prince stufff from Tidal--some of the NPG digital albums that were distributed by the MPG Music Club--and hooray for that option. I didn't know anything at all about the TIDAL streaming content before this thread came onto the scene.

>

If more previously unrleased Prince music manages to find its way to this distribution source, I'm all for downloading that stuff, too, where you don't need to buy a subscription to anything to buy album content. Thanks to the other Prince.org folks who had earlier broadcasted the news of the TIDAL non-subscription download purchase option!

wave

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Reply #12 posted 04/14/19 9:01am

databank

avatar

Germanegro said:

databank said:

wink yes

^^^Thanks, databank, for noticing my glaringly wrong assumption.

BTW, I have DOWNLOADED Prince stufff from Tidal--some of the NPG digital albums that were distributed by the MPG Music Club--and hooray for that option. I didn't know anything at all about the TIDAL streaming content before this thread came onto the scene.

>

If more previously unrleased Prince music manages to find its way to this distribution source, I'm all for downloading that stuff, too, where you don't need to buy a subscription to anything to buy album content. Thanks to the other Prince.org folks who had earlier broadcasted the news of the TIDAL non-subscription download purchase option!

wave

I still would like to know what happened with TCI being the original unreleased config instead of the released one: Prince changing his mind or the intern at Paisley sending the wrong master?

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Reply #13 posted 04/14/19 9:08am

Germanegro

^^^The knowledge that some people on the org have about released vs unreleased material content is amazing to me! Like, how....? Degrees of separation from the source, I suppose. Somebody may pipe-up some day.

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Reply #14 posted 04/14/19 9:40am

databank

avatar

Germanegro said:

^^^The knowledge that some people on the org have about released vs unreleased material content is amazing to me! Like, how....? Degrees of separation from the source, I suppose. Somebody may pipe-up some day.


In my case it's just been a passion for 30 years. Lots of reading, listening to podcasts, talking with other fans, internet searches, collecting the music itself, spending a lot of time reading Princevault and spending even more time on the Org which is in itself a great source of info. Collectively, we are an encyclopedia.
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Reply #15 posted 04/14/19 12:47pm

lurker316

avatar

Mikado said:

On Spotify (and Tidal, so I'm assuming most streaming services) after the second "Mommy, Why Does Everyone Have a Bomb"? it fades out before LRC - destroying the old segue that used to connect the two.

How fucking awful, right? At least I still have my CD....

I started a similar thread about the incorrect version of Girls & Boys on iTunes -- it fades out insteading segueing into Life Can Be So Nice. It's the same exact problem you're describing with 1999/LRC. This thread prompted me to check the iTunes' versions of 1999 and Kiss and they have the same problem as the ones you descibe with Tidal. Which means the problem must be with the content provider, not the streaming service. Anway, I recommend you check the Tidal version of Girls & Boys.

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Reply #16 posted 04/14/19 3:18pm

Mikado

lurker316 said:

Mikado said:

On Spotify (and Tidal, so I'm assuming most streaming services) after the second "Mommy, Why Does Everyone Have a Bomb"? it fades out before LRC - destroying the old segue that used to connect the two.

How fucking awful, right? At least I still have my CD....

I started a similar thread about the incorrect version of Girls & Boys on iTunes -- it fades out insteading segueing into Life Can Be So Nice. It's the same exact problem you're describing with 1999/LRC. This thread prompted me to check the iTunes' versions of 1999 and Kiss and they have the same problem as the ones you descibe with Tidal. Which means the problem must be with the content provider, not the streaming service. Anway, I recommend you check the Tidal version of Girls & Boys.


Weirdly enough Spotify has the right segue for G&B and LCBSN. What a mess, right?

A certain kind of mellow.
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Reply #17 posted 04/14/19 5:13pm

lurker316

avatar

I just went back and listened again and noticed something else. The segue between 199 and LCR is destroy in two ways. As you pointed out, 1999 incorrectly fades. But as I just discovered, LCR is also not the correct version.

When the true album/CD version of LRC starts up you hear the final "P'ssshhhh..." from 1999. In other words, the songs literally overlap.

But on the iTunes version the "P'ssshhhh.." is missing from the begining of the LRC. It's a clean intro. There's no overlap.

It's not the 45 / single edit of LRC. It's definitely album length. So it must be a clean "album version" created for one of the greatest hits compilations.

Take a listen to Spotify and/or Tidal and see if LRC is also missing the 1999's P'ssshhhh overlap in the first few second.

[Edited 4/14/19 17:33pm]

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Reply #18 posted 04/14/19 10:45pm

databank

avatar

lurker316 said:

I just went back and listened again and noticed something else. The segue between 199 and LCR is destroy in two ways. As you pointed out, 1999 incorrectly fades. But as I just discovered, LCR is also not the correct version.



When the true album/CD version of LRC starts up you hear the final "P'ssshhhh..." from 1999. In other words, the songs literally overlap.



But on the iTunes version the "P'ssshhhh.." is missing from the begining of the LRC. It's a clean intro. There's no overlap.



It's not the 45 / single edit of LRC. It's definitely album length. So it must be a clean "album version" created for one of the greatest hits compilations.



Take a listen to Spotify and/or Tidal and see if LRC is also missing the 1999's P'ssshhhh overlap in the first few second.

[Edited 4/14/19 17:33pm]


I'm not home to check but it makes sense, the LRC 12'' would also have had to do something about the intro. Could it be that we've missed that for all these years? I'm gonna check it out when at home.
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Reply #19 posted 04/15/19 3:56am

databank

avatar

lurker316 said:

I just went back and listened again and noticed something else. The segue between 199 and LCR is destroy in two ways. As you pointed out, 1999 incorrectly fades. But as I just discovered, LCR is also not the correct version.

When the true album/CD version of LRC starts up you hear the final "P'ssshhhh..." from 1999. In other words, the songs literally overlap.

But on the iTunes version the "P'ssshhhh.." is missing from the begining of the LRC. It's a clean intro. There's no overlap.

It's not the 45 / single edit of LRC. It's definitely album length. So it must be a clean "album version" created for one of the greatest hits compilations.

Take a listen to Spotify and/or Tidal and see if LRC is also missing the 1999's P'ssshhhh overlap in the first few second.

[Edited 4/14/19 17:33pm]

OK so I'm back home. I don't have the 12'' LRC because I never bothered to look for it since I believed it to be the album version, but I compared the album version (HD Tracks sourced) with the 7'' (from the greatest hits comps), assuming they began similarly, and it's a bit confusing. Technically they are different but only in the sense that the edit appears to be starting a few seconds into the album version. Not sure though if it should be considered an alternate because I can't hear any other difference and since the placement of the cut between 1999 and LRC on CD or files is somewhat arbitrary (originally it was LP and there was no clear cut), I would say it could be considered that the first few seconds of LRC are the end of the album version of 1999. I can't hear any other difference but maybe someone with ears like Kares could say whether the ouverture has been slightly remixed or not at all.

Opinions?

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Reply #20 posted 04/15/19 4:40am

lurker316

avatar

databank said:

lurker316 said:

I just went back and listened again and noticed something else. The segue between 199 and LCR is destroy in two ways. As you pointed out, 1999 incorrectly fades. But as I just discovered, LCR is also not the correct version.

When the true album/CD version of LRC starts up you hear the final "P'ssshhhh..." from 1999. In other words, the songs literally overlap.

But on the iTunes version the "P'ssshhhh.." is missing from the begining of the LRC. It's a clean intro. There's no overlap.

It's not the 45 / single edit of LRC. It's definitely album length. So it must be a clean "album version" created for one of the greatest hits compilations.

Take a listen to Spotify and/or Tidal and see if LRC is also missing the 1999's P'ssshhhh overlap in the first few second.

[Edited 4/14/19 17:33pm]

OK so I'm back home. I don't have the 12'' LRC because I never bothered to look for it since I believed it to be the album version, but I compared the album version (HD Tracks sourced) with the 7'' (from the greatest hits comps), assuming they began similarly, and it's a bit confusing. Technically they are different but only in the sense that the edit appears to be starting a few seconds into the album version. Not sure though if it should be considered an alternate because I can't hear any other difference and since the placement of the cut between 1999 and LRC on CD or files is somewhat arbitrary (originally it was LP and there was no clear cut), I would say it could be considered that the first few seconds of LRC are the end of the album version of 1999. I can't hear any other difference but maybe someone with ears like Kares could say whether the ouverture has been slightly remixed or not at all.

Opinions?

.

I *think* you are hearing the same thing. On the true album version of LRC there is a "shhhh" sound that lasts for a mere second or two, and then the song proper starts. However, on the iTunes/streaming version that one second "shhhhh" is missing.

.

It may sound trival, but that second-long "shhhh" (which is actually the end of 1999) makes a huge difference. It's what ties the songs together. It you listen to the segue with and without the "shhh" it's not anywhere near as smooth. And I'm used to the "shhh" being there because I've spent 25+ years listening to it that way.

.

I'm pretty sure this is from a so-called "album version" on the greatest hits. I assume the producer of the complitation thought the second-long "shhhh" shounds weird when LRC is played as a stand-alone, so he cut it off. That makes perfect sense for a greatest hits, but on the actual album I want them to blend together as originally intended.

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Reply #21 posted 04/15/19 5:13am

databank

avatar

lurker316 said:

databank said:

OK so I'm back home. I don't have the 12'' LRC because I never bothered to look for it since I believed it to be the album version, but I compared the album version (HD Tracks sourced) with the 7'' (from the greatest hits comps), assuming they began similarly, and it's a bit confusing. Technically they are different but only in the sense that the edit appears to be starting a few seconds into the album version. Not sure though if it should be considered an alternate because I can't hear any other difference and since the placement of the cut between 1999 and LRC on CD or files is somewhat arbitrary (originally it was LP and there was no clear cut), I would say it could be considered that the first few seconds of LRC are the end of the album version of 1999. I can't hear any other difference but maybe someone with ears like Kares could say whether the ouverture has been slightly remixed or not at all.

Opinions?

.

I *think* you are hearing the same thing. On the true album version of LRC there is a "shhhh" sound that lasts for a mere second or two, and then the song proper starts. However, on the iTunes/streaming version that one second "shhhhh" is missing.

.

It may sound trival, but that second-long "shhhh" (which is actually the end of 1999) makes a huge difference. It's what ties the songs together. It you listen to the segue with and without the "shhh" it's not anywhere near as smooth. And I'm used to the "shhh" being there because I've spent 25+ years listening to it that way.

.

I'm pretty sure this is from a so-called "album version" on the greatest hits. I assume the producer of the complitation thought the second-long "shhhh" shounds weird when LRC is played as a stand-alone, so he cut it off. That makes perfect sense for a greatest hits, but on the actual album I want them to blend together as originally intended.

It has to be the 12'', which was never on any compilation I think (was it?), but WB had that master nevertheless. The fact that they put that on the album, as well as the 1999 12'', is outrageous, I think we all agree on that. My question was more about whether LRC 12'' constitues an alternate version like 1999, or not.

And still wondering whether the fade out G&B from G6 was already on the original 12''

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Reply #22 posted 04/15/19 6:14am

Mikado

If they're going to destroy the segue and just have it fade, they should put the 8 minute dance mix on it. I mean, why stop changing the album at just the segue?
A certain kind of mellow.
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Reply #23 posted 04/15/19 6:19am

Kares

avatar

databank said:

lurker316 said:

I just went back and listened again and noticed something else. The segue between 199 and LCR is destroy in two ways. As you pointed out, 1999 incorrectly fades. But as I just discovered, LCR is also not the correct version.

When the true album/CD version of LRC starts up you hear the final "P'ssshhhh..." from 1999. In other words, the songs literally overlap.

But on the iTunes version the "P'ssshhhh.." is missing from the begining of the LRC. It's a clean intro. There's no overlap.

It's not the 45 / single edit of LRC. It's definitely album length. So it must be a clean "album version" created for one of the greatest hits compilations.

Take a listen to Spotify and/or Tidal and see if LRC is also missing the 1999's P'ssshhhh overlap in the first few second.

[Edited 4/14/19 17:33pm]

OK so I'm back home. I don't have the 12'' LRC because I never bothered to look for it since I believed it to be the album version, but I compared the album version (HD Tracks sourced) with the 7'' (from the greatest hits comps), assuming they began similarly, and it's a bit confusing. Technically they are different but only in the sense that the edit appears to be starting a few seconds into the album version. Not sure though if it should be considered an alternate because I can't hear any other difference and since the placement of the cut between 1999 and LRC on CD or files is somewhat arbitrary (originally it was LP and there was no clear cut), I would say it could be considered that the first few seconds of LRC are the end of the album version of 1999. I can't hear any other difference but maybe someone with ears like Kares could say whether the ouverture has been slightly remixed or not at all.

Opinions?

.
I'm unable to check what's on the streaming sites as I don't use them. But on the original master the songs '1999' and 'Little Red Corvette' crossfade, or in other words: they overlap each other, hence there is no clearly identifiable point that could be considered as the start of LRC.
.

'1999' ends with a drum/crash cymbal hit with that whoosh effect AND with Prince singing three notes: c-a-g. (These notes clearly belong to '1999' as LRC is in a different key: G♭) Simultaneously, the drum sequence of LRC fades in. The exact location of the track marker is up to the mastering engineer's (technical AND musical) judgement, therefore it can vary from release to release, and in case of this album it certainly does vary quite a bit.
.
If I remember correctly, my first CD copy of the album had the track ID right before that last drum hit of '1999', so it was that hit that 'LRC' started with. In my opinion that was a wrong decision.
The HDTracks release placed the cut on the 'c' note Prince is singing, after the drum hit. I prefer this, but it's still not perfect, nor it could ever be, as the songs overlap.
.
Please also note that CDs can almost never be absolutely trusted with where exactly they start playing a track, especially in case there's a crossfade between songs or it's a continuous recording. This is a result of technical details: first of all: audio (red book standard) CDs use frames (75 frames per second), that is the smallest chunk of data they can handle, therefore track IDs can only be placed at the exact boundaries of these frames, not in between them. Second: the program on each CD is one continuous data block, therefore there are no gaps or any physical markings between songs – the CD player simply reads out the table of contents (the PQ codes) to know where it will have to move the laser head to start reading a certain song you want to jump to. Now of course CD players can vary greatly and the cheap ones have rather cheap mechanics, therefore it is important to make sure that the CD is mastered in a way to make sure that when you use the skip button, even the crappiest players will start playing the new song from the very beginning, without losing even just a fraction of the first sounds. And this is done by placing the track IDs slightly (usually by 2-300ms) before the actual start of the song, to provide this safety buffer zone for cheap players. This of course results in sometimes hearing the end of the previous track before your chosen song starts to play. This particularly bugged me on the Parade CD where the song 'Under The Cherry Moon' had its track ID placed way before the song actually starts.
So to make it short: don't trust the CDs, trust your ears in deciding where songs end or start.
.

[Edited 4/15/19 10:54am]

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Reply #24 posted 04/15/19 6:47am

databank

avatar

Mikado said:

If they're going to destroy the segue and just have it fade, they should put the 8 minute dance mix on it. I mean, why stop changing the album at just the segue?

I don't think it was done on purpose for artistic or any other reason. I think they just fucked up.

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Reply #25 posted 04/15/19 6:51am

databank

avatar

Kares said:

databank said:

OK so I'm back home. I don't have the 12'' LRC because I never bothered to look for it since I believed it to be the album version, but I compared the album version (HD Tracks sourced) with the 7'' (from the greatest hits comps), assuming they began similarly, and it's a bit confusing. Technically they are different but only in the sense that the edit appears to be starting a few seconds into the album version. Not sure though if it should be considered an alternate because I can't hear any other difference and since the placement of the cut between 1999 and LRC on CD or files is somewhat arbitrary (originally it was LP and there was no clear cut), I would say it could be considered that the first few seconds of LRC are the end of the album version of 1999. I can't hear any other difference but maybe someone with ears like Kares could say whether the ouverture has been slightly remixed or not at all.

Opinions?

.
I'm unable to check what's on the streaming sites as I don't use them. But on the original master the songs '1999' and 'Little Red Corvette' crossfade, or in other words: they overlap each other, hence there is no clearly identifiable point that could be considered as the start of LRC.
.

'1999' ends with a drum/crash cymbal hit with that whoosh effect AND with Prince singing three notes: c-a-g. (These notes clearly belong to '1999' as LRC is in a different key: F#.) Simultaneously, the drum sequence of LRC fades in. The exact location of the track marker is up to the mastering engineer's (technical AND musical) judgement, therefore it can vary from release to release, and in case of this album it certainly does vary quite a bit.
.
If I remember correctly, my first CD copy of the album had the track ID right before that last drum hit of '1999', so it was that hit that 'LRC' started with. In my opinion that was a wrong decision.
The HDTracks release placed the cut on the 'c' note Prince is singing, after the drum hit. I prefer this, but it's still not perfect, nor it could ever be, as the songs overlap.
.
Please also note that CDs can almost never be absolutely trusted with where exactly they start playing a track, especially in case there's a crossfade between songs or it's a continuous recording. This is a result of technical details: first of all: audio (red book standard) CDs use frames (75 frames per second), that is the smallest chunk of data they can handle, therefore track IDs can only be placed at the exact boundaries of these frames, not in between them. Second: the program on each CD is one continuous data block, therefore there are no gaps or any physical markings between songs – the CD player simply reads out the table of contents (the PQ codes) to know where it will have to move the laser head to start reading a certain song you want to jump to. Now of course CD players can vary greatly and the cheap ones have rather cheap mechanics, therefore it is important to make sure that the CD is mastered in a way to make sure that when you use the skip button, even the crappiest players will start playing the new song from the very beginning, without losing even just a fraction of the first sounds. And this is done by placing the track IDs slightly (usually by 2-300ms) before the actual start of the song, to provide this safety buffer zone for cheap players. This of course results in sometimes hearing the end of the previous track before your chosen song starts to play. This particularly bugged me on the Parade CD where the song 'Under The Cherry Moon' had its track ID placed way before the song actually starts.
So to make it short: don't trust the CDs, trust your ears in deciding where songs end or start.
.

Thx for those explainations.

In the end, assuming the edit of LRC has a similar beginning to the 12''/streaming version, and since you certainly have it on the various greatest hits packages, I'd be interested to know if you feel it has been altered in any way (to make a clearer beginning on the drum beat) or if it's exactly the same version than the album, minus the few seconds overlapped with 1999.

Basically, as you certainly understood, my concern is whether to consider it an alternate version to add on my site (as 1999 or G&B that have a clear difference in ending with the fade out) or just the same as on the CD but without the overlapped part (considering, as we agreed, that the CD/files tracking cannot be considered a variation in versions).

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #26 posted 04/15/19 7:22am

Kares

avatar

databank said:

Kares said:

.
I'm unable to check what's on the streaming sites as I don't use them. But on the original master the songs '1999' and 'Little Red Corvette' crossfade, or in other words: they overlap each other, hence there is no clearly identifiable point that could be considered as the start of LRC.
.

'1999' ends with a drum/crash cymbal hit with that whoosh effect AND with Prince singing three notes: c-a-g. (These notes clearly belong to '1999' as LRC is in a different key: F#.) Simultaneously, the drum sequence of LRC fades in. The exact location of the track marker is up to the mastering engineer's (technical AND musical) judgement, therefore it can vary from release to release, and in case of this album it certainly does vary quite a bit.
.
If I remember correctly, my first CD copy of the album had the track ID right before that last drum hit of '1999', so it was that hit that 'LRC' started with. In my opinion that was a wrong decision.
The HDTracks release placed the cut on the 'c' note Prince is singing, after the drum hit. I prefer this, but it's still not perfect, nor it could ever be, as the songs overlap.
.
Please also note that CDs can almost never be absolutely trusted with where exactly they start playing a track, especially in case there's a crossfade between songs or it's a continuous recording. This is a result of technical details: first of all: audio (red book standard) CDs use frames (75 frames per second), that is the smallest chunk of data they can handle, therefore track IDs can only be placed at the exact boundaries of these frames, not in between them. Second: the program on each CD is one continuous data block, therefore there are no gaps or any physical markings between songs – the CD player simply reads out the table of contents (the PQ codes) to know where it will have to move the laser head to start reading a certain song you want to jump to. Now of course CD players can vary greatly and the cheap ones have rather cheap mechanics, therefore it is important to make sure that the CD is mastered in a way to make sure that when you use the skip button, even the crappiest players will start playing the new song from the very beginning, without losing even just a fraction of the first sounds. And this is done by placing the track IDs slightly (usually by 2-300ms) before the actual start of the song, to provide this safety buffer zone for cheap players. This of course results in sometimes hearing the end of the previous track before your chosen song starts to play. This particularly bugged me on the Parade CD where the song 'Under The Cherry Moon' had its track ID placed way before the song actually starts.
So to make it short: don't trust the CDs, trust your ears in deciding where songs end or start.
.

Thx for those explainations.

In the end, assuming the edit of LRC has a similar beginning to the 12''/streaming version, and since you certainly have it on the various greatest hits packages, I'd be interested to know if you feel it has been altered in any way (to make a clearer beginning on the drum beat) or if it's exactly the same version than the album, minus the few seconds overlapped with 1999.

Basically, as you certainly understood, my concern is whether to consider it an alternate version to add on my site (as 1999 or G&B that have a clear difference in ending with the fade out) or just the same as on the CD but without the overlapped part (considering, as we agreed, that the CD/files tracking cannot be considered a variation in versions).

.
I wouldn't consider it an alternate version. It's just different decisions by different mastering engineers. On '4Ever' and 'TheHits', they just cut off a bit more so it starts right before the first beat where the keyboards come in. On the '1999' digital album releases it starts earlier but I guess it's the same version.
.
There are slight differences though but again, these are technical errors in my eyes: there's a slight speed difference between 'LRC' on 'TheHits', on 'Ultimate' and on '4Ever' releases. '4Ever' sounds correct (and it sounds the same speed as the '1999' HDTracks master), but 'TheHits' is slightly higher pitched (and faster), and the full version on 'Ultimate' is even higher and faster.
Also: 'LRC' on 'TheHits' sounds almost like it's slightly out of phase or it was sourced from a different mixdown tape, probably a higher generation copy. It's not a different mix, it just sounds worse, it's not as clear as the '4Ever' master and it has more distortion too (but of course the original vocal track was also distorted to begin with so I'm not referring to that).
.

Friends don't let friends clap on 1 and 3.

The Paisley Park Vault spreadsheet: https://goo.gl/zzWHrU
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Reply #27 posted 04/15/19 8:29am

databank

avatar

Kares said:

databank said:

Thx for those explainations.

In the end, assuming the edit of LRC has a similar beginning to the 12''/streaming version, and since you certainly have it on the various greatest hits packages, I'd be interested to know if you feel it has been altered in any way (to make a clearer beginning on the drum beat) or if it's exactly the same version than the album, minus the few seconds overlapped with 1999.

Basically, as you certainly understood, my concern is whether to consider it an alternate version to add on my site (as 1999 or G&B that have a clear difference in ending with the fade out) or just the same as on the CD but without the overlapped part (considering, as we agreed, that the CD/files tracking cannot be considered a variation in versions).

.
I wouldn't consider it an alternate version. It's just different decisions by different mastering engineers. On '4Ever' and 'TheHits', they just cut off a bit more so it starts right before the first beat where the keyboards come in. On the '1999' digital album releases it starts earlier but I guess it's the same version.
.
There are slight differences though but again, these are technical errors in my eyes: there's a slight speed difference between 'LRC' on 'TheHits', on 'Ultimate' and on '4Ever' releases. '4Ever' sounds correct (and it sounds the same speed as the '1999' HDTracks master), but 'TheHits' is slightly higher pitched (and faster), and the full version on 'Ultimate' is even higher and faster.
Also: 'LRC' on 'TheHits' sounds almost like it's slightly out of phase or it was sourced from a different mixdown tape, probably a higher generation copy. It's not a different mix, it just sounds worse, it's not as clear as the '4Ever' master and it has more distortion too (but of course the original vocal track was also distorted to begin with so I'm not referring to that).
.

Interesting, thank you smile

Yes, I do not consider differences in mastering/source or accidental technical errors (such a the glitch on EC on PR Deluxe) as alternate versions.

.
If something is changed, such as the clear cut with additional reverb of the IWD4U edit, the fade vs non fade such as W2RIL on TBA vs Lovesexy, or a fade out, I consider it alternate, but only because it's intentional.

.

Interestingly, the version of Erotic City that was added to iTunes over a decade ago fades out from something, def not a Prince track, so I assume it came from some authorized mixed compilation and added it on my website in lack of the original source/release date. I wonder if this version is still online.

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #28 posted 04/15/19 10:08am

lurker316

avatar

Kares said:

databank said:

OK so I'm back home. I don't have the 12'' LRC because I never bothered to look for it since I believed it to be the album version, but I compared the album version (HD Tracks sourced) with the 7'' (from the greatest hits comps), assuming they began similarly, and it's a bit confusing. Technically they are different but only in the sense that the edit appears to be starting a few seconds into the album version. Not sure though if it should be considered an alternate because I can't hear any other difference and since the placement of the cut between 1999 and LRC on CD or files is somewhat arbitrary (originally it was LP and there was no clear cut), I would say it could be considered that the first few seconds of LRC are the end of the album version of 1999. I can't hear any other difference but maybe someone with ears like Kares could say whether the ouverture has been slightly remixed or not at all.

Opinions?

.
I'm unable to check what's on the streaming sites as I don't use them. But on the original master the songs '1999' and 'Little Red Corvette' crossfade, or in other words: they overlap each other, hence there is no clearly identifiable point that could be considered as the start of LRC.
.

'1999' ends with a drum/crash cymbal hit with that whoosh effect AND with Prince singing three notes: c-a-g. (These notes clearly belong to '1999' as LRC is in a different key: F#.) Simultaneously, the drum sequence of LRC fades in. The exact location of the track marker is up to the mastering engineer's (technical AND musical) judgement, therefore it can vary from release to release, and in case of this album it certainly does vary quite a bit.
.
If I remember correctly, my first CD copy of the album had the track ID right before that last drum hit of '1999', so it was that hit that 'LRC' started with. In my opinion that was a wrong decision.
The HDTracks release placed the cut on the 'c' note Prince is singing, after the drum hit. I prefer this, but it's still not perfect, nor it could ever be, as the songs overlap.
.
Please also note that CDs can almost never be absolutely trusted with where exactly they start playing a track, especially in case there's a crossfade between songs or it's a continuous recording. This is a result of technical details: first of all: audio (red book standard) CDs use frames (75 frames per second), that is the smallest chunk of data they can handle, therefore track IDs can only be placed at the exact boundaries of these frames, not in between them. Second: the program on each CD is one continuous data block, therefore there are no gaps or any physical markings between songs – the CD player simply reads out the table of contents (the PQ codes) to know where it will have to move the laser head to start reading a certain song you want to jump to. Now of course CD players can vary greatly and the cheap ones have rather cheap mechanics, therefore it is important to make sure that the CD is mastered in a way to make sure that when you use the skip button, even the crappiest players will start playing the new song from the very beginning, without losing even just a fraction of the first sounds. And this is done by placing the track IDs slightly (usually by 2-300ms) before the actual start of the song, to provide this safety buffer zone for cheap players. This of course results in sometimes hearing the end of the previous track before your chosen song starts to play. This particularly bugged me on the Parade CD where the song 'Under The Cherry Moon' had its track ID placed way before the song actually starts.
So to make it short: don't trust the CDs, trust your ears in deciding where songs end or start.
.

.

Yes, I understand that when two songs have an overlap there isn't necessarily a right or wrong place to make the cut (you could cut before the overlap, after it, or somewhere in the middle). It's an artisitic decision.

.

The iTunes version of LCR starts *after* the cymbol crash/overlap. That would be absolutely fine in the iTunes version of 1999 included the cymbol crash/overlap. But it doesn't.
.

In other words, we could argue which song is a better home for the cymbol crash (the end of 1999 or the begining of LCR), but I'm condifent we'd both agree that it needs to be included on one them. (Well, it's needs to be on one if you're listening to the songs back-to-back, as is intended on the album. It doesn't matter if it's missing from a hits compilation because those songs are meant to be stand-alone.)

.

On the CD, the cut comes before the cymbol crash, so that the overlap is heard mostly on LCR. Thus, when I replaced the iTunes 1999 (which fades out) with my CD rip of 1999, I discovered the cymbol crash/segue was still missing. That's why I had to go back and also replace the iTunes LRC with the CD LRC.

[Edited 4/15/19 10:25am]

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Reply #29 posted 04/15/19 10:27am

Kares

avatar

lurker316 said:

Kares said:

.
I'm unable to check what's on the streaming sites as I don't use them. But on the original master the songs '1999' and 'Little Red Corvette' crossfade, or in other words: they overlap each other, hence there is no clearly identifiable point that could be considered as the start of LRC.
.

'1999' ends with a drum/crash cymbal hit with that whoosh effect AND with Prince singing three notes: c-a-g. (These notes clearly belong to '1999' as LRC is in a different key: F#.) Simultaneously, the drum sequence of LRC fades in. The exact location of the track marker is up to the mastering engineer's (technical AND musical) judgement, therefore it can vary from release to release, and in case of this album it certainly does vary quite a bit.
.
If I remember correctly, my first CD copy of the album had the track ID right before that last drum hit of '1999', so it was that hit that 'LRC' started with. In my opinion that was a wrong decision.
The HDTracks release placed the cut on the 'c' note Prince is singing, after the drum hit. I prefer this, but it's still not perfect, nor it could ever be, as the songs overlap.
.
Please also note that CDs can almost never be absolutely trusted with where exactly they start playing a track, especially in case there's a crossfade between songs or it's a continuous recording. This is a result of technical details: first of all: audio (red book standard) CDs use frames (75 frames per second), that is the smallest chunk of data they can handle, therefore track IDs can only be placed at the exact boundaries of these frames, not in between them. Second: the program on each CD is one continuous data block, therefore there are no gaps or any physical markings between songs – the CD player simply reads out the table of contents (the PQ codes) to know where it will have to move the laser head to start reading a certain song you want to jump to. Now of course CD players can vary greatly and the cheap ones have rather cheap mechanics, therefore it is important to make sure that the CD is mastered in a way to make sure that when you use the skip button, even the crappiest players will start playing the new song from the very beginning, without losing even just a fraction of the first sounds. And this is done by placing the track IDs slightly (usually by 2-300ms) before the actual start of the song, to provide this safety buffer zone for cheap players. This of course results in sometimes hearing the end of the previous track before your chosen song starts to play. This particularly bugged me on the Parade CD where the song 'Under The Cherry Moon' had its track ID placed way before the song actually starts.
So to make it short: don't trust the CDs, trust your ears in deciding where songs end or start.
.

.

Yes, I understand that when two songs have an overlap there isn't necessarily a right or wrong place to make the cut (you could cut before the overlap, after it, or somewhere in the middle). It's an artisitic decision.

.

The iTunes version of LCR starts *after* the cymbol crash/overlap. That would be absolutely fine in the iTunes version of 1999 included the cymbol crash/overlap. But it doesn't.
.

In other words, we could argue which song is a better home for the cymbol crash (the end of 1999 or the begining of LCR), but I'm condifent we'd both agree that it needs to be included on one them. On iTunes, it's not on either.

.

On the CD, the cut comes before the cymbol crash, so that the overlap is heard mostly on LCR. Thus, when I replaced the iTunes 1999 (which fades out) with my CD rip of 1999, I discovered the cymbol crash/segue was still missing. That's why I had to go back and also replace the iTunes LRC with the CD LRC.


.
Obviously one of the tracks should have the cymbal sound, but there's no argument over which song that crash cymbal sound and Prince's vocal line belongs to: that is clearly the song '1999'. I know some masters were made by sticking this bit to the beginning of 'LRC' but that doesn't make sense musically, it's wrong. That vocal line (c-a-g) fits '1999' (the key of F), it doesn't fit 'LRC' (the key of G♭). Besides, we know for a fact that the full mastertape of 'LRC' starts with just the drum beat, nothing else.
.
But as it's a crossfade, the best compromise, in my opinion, is to place the track ID on the 'a' note of the vocal line: at that point the vocal is faded enough and the drums of LRC still have a full bar of fade-in before the keyboard comes in. That's the point that makes sense to me musically.
.

[Edited 4/15/19 10:57am]

Friends don't let friends clap on 1 and 3.

The Paisley Park Vault spreadsheet: https://goo.gl/zzWHrU
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