skywalker said:

rdhull said:

I am interested but youre not hearing me and discounting whatever I say.

Sorry if I came off that way. I feel like I did acknowledge many of your points including:

-

-Irresistable Bitch "rapping" is way different than the rapping on .

-I acknowledged that Prince totally incorporated elements of early 90's rap/newjack/hip hop into his sound/style/stage show in the early 90's.

-I know the popular narrative is that Prince started "chasing trends" once hip/hop became really popular by incorporatiing it in his music. I don't deny this is true.

-

What I feel like you aren't responding to is the fact that Prince jumped on bandwagons of all sorts in the 80's as well. You said "he wore his influences on his sleeve." I agree if you are talking about Jimi/James/Sly etc.

-

However, you have yet to address the idea that he totally jumped on the following trendy bandwagons of the early 80's: Sounds/Styles of the New Romantic movement, Bowie's 1983 look/homage to 60's soul music, and his numerous Rockabilly songs/styles like that had already been made popular by groups like The Stray Cats.

I agree with you on that ultimately. It seems he did it better in the 80's. I think Im trying to say that it seemed like he gnerally was interested in the early 80's music movements of new wave, post punk, rockabilly etc. The results seemed natrual, like songs Delierious, Jack U Off, new wavers Automatic, All The Critics, Private Joy etc. The Symbol stuff seems way forced and way off track for his style. I think ot ws more Tony M and others influence on him rather than his own psyche being generally influenced like the 80's styles.

Certainly, the original Extralovable would not go over in these times. That's why I fear we'll never get to hear in pristine quality cuz the estate sho' ain't gonna release THAT.

rdhull said:

skywalker said:

Sorry if I came off that way. I feel like I did acknowledge many of your points including:

-

-Irresistable Bitch "rapping" is way different than the rapping on .

-I acknowledged that Prince totally incorporated elements of early 90's rap/newjack/hip hop into his sound/style/stage show in the early 90's.

-I know the popular narrative is that Prince started "chasing trends" once hip/hop became really popular by incorporatiing it in his music. I don't deny this is true.

-

What I feel like you aren't responding to is the fact that Prince jumped on bandwagons of all sorts in the 80's as well. You said "he wore his influences on his sleeve." I agree if you are talking about Jimi/James/Sly etc.

-

However, you have yet to address the idea that he totally jumped on the following trendy bandwagons of the early 80's: Sounds/Styles of the New Romantic movement, Bowie's 1983 look/homage to 60's soul music, and his numerous Rockabilly songs/styles like that had already been made popular by groups like The Stray Cats.

I agree with you on that ultimately. It seems he did it better in the 80's. I think Im trying to say that it seemed like he gnerally was interested in the early 80's music movements of new wave, post punk, rockabilly etc. The results seemed natrual, like songs Delierious, Jack U Off, new wavers Automatic, All The Critics, Private Joy etc. The Symbol stuff seems way forced and way off track for his style. I think ot ws more Tony M and others influence on him rather than his own psyche being generally influenced like the 80's styles.

You know what I think it was? It was more organic in the 80's. This is because hip/hop is/was SO MASCULINE in it's energy/imagery/content that it brought out a new side of Prince that hadn't been seen. I think some of his stuff was a miss (Tony M.), but I did like how he used a lot of 70's P-Funk, Glam Rock stuff to convey his message.

-

Some fans still say Prince couldn't "do rap" or hip hop, but at the end of the day nobody (especially hip hop artists) could fuck with something like "Gett Off" "Days of Wild" or "Pussy Control."

You know why? The roots of hiphop/rap is FUNK and to REALLY do funk you need some sort of actual musicianship.

No. Not really.

I agree with most of what I've read above. Prince may have had some lyrics here and there that could have been perceived as sexist but in the vast majority of his lyrics, women are empowered and Prince has some very explicit feminist lyrics.

.

Typically, Sexy MF was always to me a feminist track despite the dubious opening scene of the video.

.

The Time was def sexist but that was The Time and the Morris character was portrayed as a caricature, not as a role model.

.

V6 and A6 and even Carmen later on... at the time they were marketed as strong women composing their music and lyrics, not actresses playing in a Prince movie. V6 and A6 actually inspired many feminist acts from the electroclash era such as Peaches or Avenue D., who would appear in all sorts of outrageous outfits as a provocative act against men wanting to "cover" female bodies or tell women how to dress, and who would have extremely explicit sexual lyrics in order to say "women can be horny and sexually proactive, too".

.

As for Extraloveable I'm really sick of hearing that it should not or should but cannot be released. Songs are works of fiction. Fiction has a right to describe any sort of characters and situations. Typically, Prince was not advocating mass shootings and female abuse with Bob George, he was telling a story. Besides, rumor is that Extraloveable was intended for V6. IDK if Duane has verified this but if true, that would be quite a different story wouldn't it?

Sexy Motherfucker.. like with Cream Prince was singing about himself, afaik..



what a silly thread

If Martin Scorsese made a film that had misogynistic tones in it, no one baits an unlid .... Prince sings a song that tells a story that has potential misogynistic tones, that's sexist. Riiiiiiight.

You have to judge the man by what he actually did ... he gave women very prominent roles in his bands when it wasn't de rigour to do so.

thedance said:

TrivialPursuit said:

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

We all know that P worshipped women & gave them endless career opportunities. Outside of the sphere of music he opened doors for photographers, creatives, designers, P..Park staff & many others. In this respect the man was incredible & his legacy on this front is firmly in tact & very much in keeping on where we are now.

That said when I now look at the songs/images/videos from day 1 through to say 2002 in particular some of it makes me cringe! The list is endless from Vanity 6, treatment of Apollonia in P. Rain, the Sexy MF video, raping Lady Cab driver [!] & many, many others. The message in some cases is filled with his own purple logic...Sexy MF shows a woman being subservient BUT what she does with her mind is what makes her a Sexy MF !! I could write for pages on this but y'all get the gist!

I would love your honest perspectives on this especially from the ladies on here. Do you feel uncomfortable OR is it just a case of context of the time?

Over to you.

This post is absolutely clueless.

Prince has consistently, from the beginning, put women in positions of power. He's almost always submissive to them (minus maybe 1 or 2 instances). Even with something like "Bambi", where people see it as homophobic, he still leaves it up to her. He pleads with her, tries every catcall in the book, but we never hear that she gave into his lusty desires to bone her. "Automatic" - women in control. "Darling Nikki" - she was in control and left his ass. He's so in love he does care where she takes him, just "take me with u". His sister dominated him in another song, becoming his pimp and dominatrix. Prince often sidesteps the obvious 1-2 punch of fucking on the first date, often vying to just spend time with a woman to get to know her, "tonight we make love with only words, girls first", "we'll try to imagine what silence looks like" (one of his best lines ever, by the way). He pleads his way into a girl's life and most intimate soul, asking "If I was your girlfriend, would you tell me?". The list is endless.

As far as the way Vanity or Apollonia dressed, they opted for that gig. They could have protested. They could have done something else. They were women in power, holding their sexuality as their own weapon of choice. Hell "Nasty Girl" ends with "that's it? Wake me when you're done." DISS! Vanity continued her sexy vixen look well past that one album. You think "Pretty Mess" is about French onion dip?

This thread is a non-starter.

clueless? hmmm. is this not more worthy of debate than 'whats the next legacy release'?! Your whole response makes you sound like a blind apologist. NOte I have already CLEARLY highlighted where P has done great for women. There are arguements & counter-arguements for every example of lyrics, videos etc. Tell me this..are you 100% comfortable with the P.Rain scene with MD banging his stick & demanding "lets see those asses & titties wigging" [huge apologies if that's the wrong quote btw!] ....the point here being that there is zero female empoerment going on.

Likewise are you seriously going to argue about LadyCab driver being raped as a cure for all that P sees wrong with the world etc? Come on now!

sulls said:

Certainly, the original Extralovable would not go over in these times. That's why I fear we'll never get to hear in pristine quality cuz the estate sho' ain't gonna release THAT.

a very good point that opens a whole other debate about the earlier vault tracks.

McD said:

Harvey Weinstein’s Lawyer said:

they opted for that gig. They could have protested. They could have done something else. They were women in power, holding their sexuality as their own weapon of choice.

ouch!

OperatingThetan said:

thedance said:

Sexy Motherfucker.. like with Cream Prince was singing about himself, afaik..



what a silly thread

Exactly. But that's what happens when people emotionally react to songs without actually bothering to closely listen to them or study the lyrics. Also, there's a tenuous attempt here to lump Prince in with other unsavoury characters by association and insinuation and link that to a wider social media movement. I'm not suggesting there are not injustices that need to be addressed, but outrage culture is simply too reactive and agenda focused to sensibly assess art. Some of these people are simply the new church ladies leading modern day witch- hunts on social media. * [Edited 3/2/19 3:05am]

really not too sure what relevance your point has? Listen, i've been on the purple train since 1983 & been through all the teiwsts & turns. Therefore as someone older & wiser I am now able to take a far more considered view of P's older material vs the new age we live in. My arguement I think still holds firm ie that much of his early output looks & sounds incredibly dated, as does the material of many other artists. The grooves remian funky as hell....but the lyrics / images are dated IMHO.

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

TrivialPursuit said:

This post is absolutely clueless.

Prince has consistently, from the beginning, put women in positions of power. He's almost always submissive to them (minus maybe 1 or 2 instances). Even with something like "Bambi", where people see it as homophobic, he still leaves it up to her. He pleads with her, tries every catcall in the book, but we never hear that she gave into his lusty desires to bone her. "Automatic" - women in control. "Darling Nikki" - she was in control and left his ass. He's so in love he does care where she takes him, just "take me with u". His sister dominated him in another song, becoming his pimp and dominatrix. Prince often sidesteps the obvious 1-2 punch of fucking on the first date, often vying to just spend time with a woman to get to know her, "tonight we make love with only words, girls first", "we'll try to imagine what silence looks like" (one of his best lines ever, by the way). He pleads his way into a girl's life and most intimate soul, asking "If I was your girlfriend, would you tell me?". The list is endless.

As far as the way Vanity or Apollonia dressed, they opted for that gig. They could have protested. They could have done something else. They were women in power, holding their sexuality as their own weapon of choice. Hell "Nasty Girl" ends with "that's it? Wake me when you're done." DISS! Vanity continued her sexy vixen look well past that one album. You think "Pretty Mess" is about French onion dip?

This thread is a non-starter.

clueless? hmmm. is this not more worthy of debate than 'whats the next legacy release'?! Your whole response makes you sound like a blind apologist. NOte I have already CLEARLY highlighted where P has done great for women. There are arguements & counter-arguements for every example of lyrics, videos etc. Tell me this..are you 100% comfortable with the P.Rain scene with MD banging his stick & demanding "lets see those asses & titties wigging" [huge apologies if that's the wrong quote btw!] ....the point here being that there is zero female empoerment going on.

Likewise are you seriously going to argue about LadyCab driver being raped as a cure for all that P sees wrong with the world etc? Come on now!

I've already answered the Morris Day situation above: there's no point to be made with Morris when he plays the villain in both movies (and in the purple world in general).

I find the scene where the Kid hits Apollonia much more disturbing and I found it disturbing the first time I saw the movie back in 1991, because The Kid is the role model there. But is he really? After all it's a work of fiction and no one ever said that Prince endorsed every aspect of the lead character. I myself always found The Kid to be quite an ass of a character in PR (he's somewhat nicer in GB), certainly not an attempt at a role model.

.

As for Lady Cab Driver, she only gets raped in your sick imagination. I've just checked the lyrics again and there's no such thing as rape.

OperatingThetan said:

There is no rape in 'Lady Cab Driver'. The woman is a willing participant that takes the narrator back to her mansion for sex. Prince then dedicates each thrust to various parties. The most this could be considered is aggressive or 'rough' sex, and there's no evidence the female isn't enjoying or requesting it.

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

TrivialPursuit said:

This post is absolutely clueless.

Prince has consistently, from the beginning, put women in positions of power. He's almost always submissive to them (minus maybe 1 or 2 instances). Even with something like "Bambi", where people see it as homophobic, he still leaves it up to her. He pleads with her, tries every catcall in the book, but we never hear that she gave into his lusty desires to bone her. "Automatic" - women in control. "Darling Nikki" - she was in control and left his ass. He's so in love he does care where she takes him, just "take me with u". His sister dominated him in another song, becoming his pimp and dominatrix. Prince often sidesteps the obvious 1-2 punch of fucking on the first date, often vying to just spend time with a woman to get to know her, "tonight we make love with only words, girls first", "we'll try to imagine what silence looks like" (one of his best lines ever, by the way). He pleads his way into a girl's life and most intimate soul, asking "If I was your girlfriend, would you tell me?". The list is endless.

As far as the way Vanity or Apollonia dressed, they opted for that gig. They could have protested. They could have done something else. They were women in power, holding their sexuality as their own weapon of choice. Hell "Nasty Girl" ends with "that's it? Wake me when you're done." DISS! Vanity continued her sexy vixen look well past that one album. You think "Pretty Mess" is about French onion dip?

This thread is a non-starter.

clueless? hmmm. is this not more worthy of debate than 'whats the next legacy release'?! Your whole response makes you sound like a blind apologist. NOte I have already CLEARLY highlighted where P has done great for women. There are arguements & counter-arguements for every example of lyrics, videos etc. Tell me this..are you 100% comfortable with the P.Rain scene with MD banging his stick & demanding "lets see those asses & titties wigging" [huge apologies if that's the wrong quote btw!] ....the point here being that there is zero female empoerment going on.

Likewise are you seriously going to argue about LadyCab driver being raped as a cure for all that P sees wrong with the world etc? Come on now!

That idea is why people need to have 'REAL TALK' about sex

.

Like the idea, unless it's soft whispers, flowers, quiet love songs playing and cute moans and slow rhythm that it equals 'making love' and a quick hot fuck cannot be 'making love'. I've done the form with people I cared nothing about, and the latter with people I deeply loved.

.

Sex is rough, it's weird the sounds we make and things we say, the its fast it's slow, its wet sloppy

.

Lad Cab Driver is nothing about anyone being raped. How in the world did you walk away with that? Most likely how I started this post.

sulls said:

Certainly, the original Extralovable would not go over in these times. That's why I fear we'll never get to hear in pristine quality cuz the estate sho' ain't gonna release THAT.

Well to equal it out 'Purple Music' includes a scene where a man he has to bathe wants more

It's time for your morning bath, sir
What would you like to bathe in this morning?
With all due respect sir, I think that...
I think that it might...
Oh, oh no
I don't want to play anymore
I don't want to play anymore

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

TrivialPursuit said:

This post is absolutely clueless.

Prince has consistently, from the beginning, put women in positions of power. He's almost always submissive to them (minus maybe 1 or 2 instances). Even with something like "Bambi", where people see it as homophobic, he still leaves it up to her. He pleads with her, tries every catcall in the book, but we never hear that she gave into his lusty desires to bone her. "Automatic" - women in control. "Darling Nikki" - she was in control and left his ass. He's so in love he does care where she takes him, just "take me with u". His sister dominated him in another song, becoming his pimp and dominatrix. Prince often sidesteps the obvious 1-2 punch of fucking on the first date, often vying to just spend time with a woman to get to know her, "tonight we make love with only words, girls first", "we'll try to imagine what silence looks like" (one of his best lines ever, by the way). He pleads his way into a girl's life and most intimate soul, asking "If I was your girlfriend, would you tell me?". The list is endless.

As far as the way Vanity or Apollonia dressed, they opted for that gig. They could have protested. They could have done something else. They were women in power, holding their sexuality as their own weapon of choice. Hell "Nasty Girl" ends with "that's it? Wake me when you're done." DISS! Vanity continued her sexy vixen look well past that one album. You think "Pretty Mess" is about French onion dip?

This thread is a non-starter.

clueless? hmmm. is this not more worthy of debate than 'whats the next legacy release'?! Your whole response makes you sound like a blind apologist. NOte I have already CLEARLY highlighted where P has done great for women. There are arguements & counter-arguements for every example of lyrics, videos etc. Tell me this..are you 100% comfortable with the P.Rain scene with MD banging his stick & demanding "lets see those asses & titties wigging" [huge apologies if that's the wrong quote btw!] ....the point here being that there is zero female empoerment going on.

Likewise are you seriously going to argue about LadyCab driver being raped as a cure for all that P sees wrong with the world etc? Come on now!

Does there have to be 'female empowerment' going on in that scene? The fact is it is a gig. They can take it over leave it. Just like a man. In some ways Billy treated the Kid the same way.
But from the scene Morris empowered Susan and Brenda to come up with the dance routine.
It obviously wasn't good.

And no he did not say 'titties'

MORRIS
One, two, three, kick! One,
two, three, kick! Four,
five...Oh, Lord. Cut! Cut!

The MUSIC stops, the girls come to a
halt -- Morris regards them evenly--

MORRIS
You ladies don't seem to
realize how valuable my time
is. You're going to make my
boys look bad.

BRENDA
Why don't you let us come up
with our own steps?

Morris glares at her--

MORRIS
We tried that...
(sweetly)
... remember?

The Girls fidget--

MORRIS
Now you're in the best
possible position you can be
in, so what' s the matter --
your shoes on too tight or
something?
(claps his hands)
Let's have some action, let's
have some asses wiggling, I
want some perfection. Whawhak!

"A girl with guitar is twelve times better than another crazy band of boys

Tryna be a star in a misogynistic wall of noise"

rdhull said:

Matthaus said:

About your third point: I did read some discussions ponting out on why, being that Princess Leia is at the beginning of the story one of the most powerfl on the resistance; yet she's the one who has to act as damsel in distress asking for Luke Skywalker's help; and then she shows up scandily-clad in the third film before getting her groove back... just sayin'...

But she never asked for Lukes help. She asked for Kenobis and it wasnt for strength reasons. She was also strong enough to give in to the black probes torture. And she was scantily clad because of Jabbas lechery, which was part of his character. She also choked his ass out.

Yeah, she asked for Kenobi's help, my bad. I still stand by my point, even though it's been some years since I've seen Episode IV

.

And I know the logic to the story about it meaning to make her look frail and then it gets broken and all, but honestly there's a million other ways that George Lucas could've thought of doing that, instead of putting a bikini on one of the female main characters of a beloved movie franchise whose main audience (at the time) were male. Princess Leia in a bikini was the masturbatory stimulation to many pre-teen kids back in the 80s, and all the creative team from Star Wars knew that very well

[Edited 3/4/19 13:03pm]

now u will seehow important it is to see Prince as a work-in-progress....look how he matured spiritually and sexually thru his life (as we know it)

I don't know if dated is the word I would use, but the answer to your question is YES. Last Heart is particularly sad. If someone is bad for you, then you leave them. You don't threaten them. HIS heart wasn't meant to break? Hahaha. He's broken more than his fair share. I guess those hearts where not as good as his.

steakfinger said:

sulls said:

Certainly, the original Extralovable would not go over in these times. That's why I fear we'll never get to hear in pristine quality cuz the estate sho' ain't gonna release THAT.

if it's not included on the 1999 Deluxe Edition,I'm gonna be pissed

Matthaus said:

rdhull said:

But she never asked for Lukes help. She asked for Kenobis and it wasnt for strength reasons. She was also strong enough to give in to the black probes torture. And she was scantily clad because of Jabbas lechery, which was part of his character. She also choked his ass out.

Yeah, she asked for Kenobi's help, my bad. I still stand by my point, even though it's been some years since I've seen Episode IV

.

And I know the logic to the story about it meaning to make her look frail and then it gets broken and all, but honestly there's a million other ways that George Lucas could've thought of doing that, instead of putting one of the female main characters of a beloved movie franchise whose main audience (at the time) were male. Princess Leia in a bikini was the masturbatory stimulation to many pre-teen kids back in the 80s, and all the creative team from Star Wars knew that very well

[Edited 3/2/19 10:11am]

It was not gratuitous.

OperatingThetan said: