Kares said:

databank said:

Kares said: Apparently, NC2U was a new remix made off both the Prince and Family versions multitracks. So it came from the vault alright, but its a posthumous remix and, as such, is of no historical interest. The bootleg Prince version is the real deal.

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I know that's what they say, but I don't believe NC2U came directly from the original tapes. I trust my ears more than to believe that.
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I wish we would definitely ban the "ears" argument from the Org. This is the argument that's been used to claim Prince had composed and produced Pharrell's Blurred Lines ( ), or that he had nothing to do with the recent Valerie Carter collab ( again). Nothing against your ears in particular, maybe they're great, but as a method it's pseudo science, it cannot be used as an argument in a debate. I'll add that the ears argument is the one used by all those people who claim they can hear the difference between Flac and mp3 when in fact, for the vast majority of them at least, they can't (various blind tests experiments have proven it). The power of cognitive bias and auto-suggestion is huge...

.

Now...

There's no way background vocals and orchestra might have been mixed into Prince's mix posthumously without the multitracks.

But have they? Most likely, because...

There is little reason to believe Prince had such a mix made in his lifetime because it is known that Paul's, Susannah's and Clare's parts were recorded after Prince's version was completed, and since the song was intended for the Family album from the start, it would have made little sense for Prince to bother making such retroactive mixes of the album's tracks. We have his demo in bootleg form, and we can see for ourselves.

Another element in favor of that theory is that if you compare the mix of the Family demo to the mix of the 2018 version, they are remarkably different: the strings in particular are ridiculously low in the 2018 mix by comparison to how Prince had them mixed in the demo or any of his early Fischer collabs. This suggests the Family demo reflects Prince's intentions and the second did not.

It would also be interested to compare the Prince demo's mix with the 2018 version, but I haven't.

And while I can't elaborate on this because that person hasn't gone on record, someone I believe is well informed have corroborated that theory.

.

Now that's a lot of circumstantial evidence and one witness whose testimony we can't verify, I'll give you that, but putting all this together, there is little reason to believe the mix wasn't posthumous. Very little. It's possible, but extremely unlikely.

[Edited 2/9/19 2:37am]

Kares said:

Warners is obviously fighting for the rights of the unreleased masters made during the period Prince was signed to them

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With who(m)?

Does the Estate not want to receive their ca$h?

Do they have better offers?

Why do unreleased masters belong to WB? The released masters were in a process to return to Prince.

Why then would this process be only for the released materials?

Why then would WB only pay for the released albums? (he was not on an allowance from them)

antonb said:

langebleu said:

If you were hardcore, you'd buy two copies, and leave one sealed

No, thats called , having more money than sense!

Or as prince said:"Ways of the pharaoh".

databank said:

Kares said:

.
I know that's what they say, but I don't believe NC2U came directly from the original tapes. I trust my ears more than to believe that.
.

I wish we would definitely ban the "ears" argument from the Org. This is the argument that's been used to claim Prince had composed and produced Pharrell's Blurred Lines ( ), or that he had nothing to do with the recent Valerie Carter collab ( again). Nothing against your ears in particular, maybe they're great, but as a method it's pseudo science, it cannot be used as an argument in a debate. I'll add that the ears argument is the one used by all those people who claim they can hear the difference between Flac and mp3 when in fact, for the vast majority of them at least, they can't (various blind tests experiments have proven it). The power of cognitive bias and auto-suggestion is huge...

.

Now...

There's no way background vocals and orchestra might have been mixed into Prince's mix posthumously without the multitracks.

But have they? Most likely, because...

There is little reason to believe Prince had such a mix made in his lifetime because it is known that Paul's, Susannah's and Clare's parts were recorded after Prince's version was completed, and since the song was intended for the Family album from the start, it would have made little sense for Prince to bother making such retroactive mixes of the album's tracks. We have his demo in bootleg form, and we can see for ourselves.

Another element in favor of that theory is that if you compare the mix of the Family demo to the mix of the 2018 version, they are remarkably different: the strings in particular are ridiculously low in the 2018 mix by comparison to how Prince had them mixed in the demo or any of his early Fischer collabs. This suggests the Family demo reflects Prince's intentions and the second did not.

It would also be interested to compare the Prince demo's mix with the 2018 version, but I haven't.

And while I can't elaborate on this because that person hasn't gone on record, someone I believe is well informed have corroborated that theory.

.

Now that's a lot of circumstantial evidence and one witness whose testimony we can't verify, I'll give you that, but putting all this together, there is little reason to believe the mix wasn't posthumous. Very little. It's possible, but extremely unlikely.

[Edited 2/9/19 2:37am]

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I did not say the mix wasn't posthumus... I said it's not sourced directly from the original tapes, or at least the majority of it wasn't. There could be cassette copies of different rough mixes that were made during back in the '80s, with and without the strings or other elements. Brent Fischer most probably had a copy of the recording of only the strings for the song. Peterson or the others could've had copies of their parts. I don't know. But the final result does NOT sound like it was mixed from a pristine sounding original multitrack. It shows the effects of way too much noise-reduction for me to believe it was sourced from the originals.
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As for your comments about hearing (or not hearing) the difference between a lossless file and a lossy compression algorithm such as mp3-encoding, I don't really know what to add. Some people hear it clearly, some people don't. Believe or not, I do hear it but feel free to ridicule me for that statement, I don't care. But I've met some people who can't even tell the difference between two different musical notes, so...
.

Kares said:

databank said:

I wish we would definitely ban the "ears" argument from the Org. This is the argument that's been used to claim Prince had composed and produced Pharrell's Blurred Lines ( ), or that he had nothing to do with the recent Valerie Carter collab ( again). Nothing against your ears in particular, maybe they're great, but as a method it's pseudo science, it cannot be used as an argument in a debate. I'll add that the ears argument is the one used by all those people who claim they can hear the difference between Flac and mp3 when in fact, for the vast majority of them at least, they can't (various blind tests experiments have proven it). The power of cognitive bias and auto-suggestion is huge...

.

Now...

There's no way background vocals and orchestra might have been mixed into Prince's mix posthumously without the multitracks.

But have they? Most likely, because...

There is little reason to believe Prince had such a mix made in his lifetime because it is known that Paul's, Susannah's and Clare's parts were recorded after Prince's version was completed, and since the song was intended for the Family album from the start, it would have made little sense for Prince to bother making such retroactive mixes of the album's tracks. We have his demo in bootleg form, and we can see for ourselves.

Another element in favor of that theory is that if you compare the mix of the Family demo to the mix of the 2018 version, they are remarkably different: the strings in particular are ridiculously low in the 2018 mix by comparison to how Prince had them mixed in the demo or any of his early Fischer collabs. This suggests the Family demo reflects Prince's intentions and the second did not.

It would also be interested to compare the Prince demo's mix with the 2018 version, but I haven't.

And while I can't elaborate on this because that person hasn't gone on record, someone I believe is well informed have corroborated that theory.

.

Now that's a lot of circumstantial evidence and one witness whose testimony we can't verify, I'll give you that, but putting all this together, there is little reason to believe the mix wasn't posthumous. Very little. It's possible, but extremely unlikely.

[Edited 2/9/19 2:37am]

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I did not say the mix wasn't posthumus... I said it's not sourced directly from the original tapes, or at least the majority of it wasn't. There could be cassette copies of different rough mixes that were made during back in the '80s, with and without the strings or other elements. Brent Fischer most probably had a copy of the recording of only the strings for the song. Peterson or the others could've had copies of their parts. I don't know. But the final result does NOT sound like it was mixed from a pristine sounding original multitrack. It shows the effects of way too much noise-reduction for me to believe it was sourced from the originals.
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One answer to that: Ockham's razor. Your explaination implies lots of unlikely what if's and many technical complications with the Estate having to track down all sorts of unlikely sources from unlikely people, while Michael Owe's explaination of finding the multi-tracks in the vault does not. If the sound quality is disappointing, it's probably because proper restoration hasn't been made: I was also told by someone presumably in the know that the Estate and WB did not wish to spend money on those Prince reissues, and went for the cheapest possible way at the cost of sound quality (for Piano 83, too). However, we agree on the fact that it was posthumously tampered with, which is the most important regardless of where the tracks used came from.

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As for your comments about hearing (or not hearing) the difference between a lossless file and a lossy compression algorithm such as mp3-encoding, I don't really know what to add. Some people hear it clearly, some people don't. Believe or not, I do hear it but feel free to ridicule me for that statement, I don't care. But I've met some people who can't even tell the difference between two different musical notes, so...

.

It's not about you. Why is it people always believe everything is about them? I have no reason to doubt you and given that blindtests show that some people can hear the difference, I don't see why you would not.

This being said, everytime you say "Most people [can/are/can't/aren't X] but a few people [the more flattering opposite]" on a public forum, everyone involved in the conversation feels obliged to say they are part of [the more flattering opposite]. My policy is to trust people's statements until I have reason to believe otherwise, so I believe you. But when 50 more people will come and say in the thread that they, too, can hear the difference between mp3 and Flac, we'll have to assume most of them are lying. Or most likely they won't be lying, they will believe they can hear the difference because they will never have done a blind test, and cognitive bias will have made them believe they could hear the difference because they always knew what format they were listening to when trying to check if they could. I encourage anyone who believe they can make the difference to do a few blindtests online (there are several available) and to accept the results of the experiments even if it does not flatter their ego. I for one can't hear the difference, but it's OK, I don't feel I'm a lesser human being because of it.
.

[Edited 2/9/19 3:37am]

antonb said:

I have bought 3121 and planet earth this morning on record. But at nearly 35 pound each, I couldn't justify buying the 3rd just yet. Not on my bank balance. It is a bad joke how much they are here in the UK, but I'm hardcore, and play records so I'm going to buy them. [Edited 2/8/19 4:33am]

Yeah, the prices are eyewatering. Given some of my other expenses at the minute, I've reduced myself to just gazing longingly at them in HMV for now.

I'd love the Musicology vinyl in an ideal world, and would've snapped up all three on release day if I was still living my former, much wealthier single life (like I did with the monster Donna Summer vinyl box set that came out some years back), but that's just the way it is.

how's the sound on these???? ANY improvement over CDs???? ...not that thats what was needed

luvsexy4all said:

how's the sound on these???? ANY improvement over CDs???? ...not that thats what was needed

I just posted in the other thread about this... Musicology at least sounds fantastic on vinyl... it beats the hell out of the original, distorted CD.

Have only listening to portions of 3121 and Planet Earth thus far, but what I've heard sounds very good - at least on the vinyl editions.

Kares said:

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

no extras = no cash! a truly pathetic missed opportunity form the estate. Even 1 new track on each would have been a step in the right direction.

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I believe there's still a legal fight over the vault stuff, that's why almost 3 years after Prince's passing we still don't have s single, genuine vault release. Not even one song that comes straight from the Paisley Park Vault mastertapes. Yes, I'm saying that not even 'Nothing Compares 2 U' was sourced directly from the master. 'Moonbeam Levels' was sourced from a cassette copy. All the Purple Rain Deluxe outtakes were sourced from cassette copies. P&AM83 is just a rehearsal cassette, so even though it was found inside the vault, it's not a professional recording so I personally don't consider it a true vault release.

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Warners is obviously fighting for the rights of the unreleased masters made during the period Prince was signed to them, and they do have a legal ground for this claim. So I have a bad feeling we're in for a long wait.

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is this in a court somewhere??? can we verify this??

luvsexy4all said:

IstenSzek said:

FunkyStrange said:

paddypurple said:

If any were to re-enter the BH200, I would want it to be 3121. Keep buying all of them so they re-enter the BH200. Peace

Please explain : for What purpose? Who cares about the obsolete billboard charts in 2019?

It's my favourite. That's just my opinion though.

TrivialPursuit said:

How about you buy more copies, because those of us who know schtick from a real cash-worthy release are saving our pennies for bills, and LIFE in general. It's a ridiculous idea to buy copies of stuff over and over just for the sake of it.

Just buy one of each if you don't already own them. I'm not asking you to buy 10 copies of each or something crazy like that.

[Edited 2/9/19 19:17pm]

paddypurple said:

TrivialPursuit said:

How about you buy more copies, because those of us who know schtick from a real cash-worthy release are saving our pennies for bills, and LIFE in general. It's a ridiculous idea to buy copies of stuff over and over just for the sake of it.

Just buy one of each if you don't already own them. I'm not asking you to buy 10 copies of each or something crazy like that.

OK but you said, "Keep buying all of them so they re-enter the BH200". The selling point wasn't to own Prince music, it was to have it chart. I'm saying most of us don't care about a chart. Prince didn't, but even before he started dismissing the charts, most of us knew it was largely bullshit. The purple vinyl is not a selling point, it's a gimmick.

Purple Rain deluxe had extras. The vinyl was 180g and remastered (albeit badly we found out), the CD had a couple of configurations with the bonus disk and the concert DVD. That is worth my money. Another copy of something I have is insane. Even the upcoming Rave Un2 set isn't worth it, for me. Now, for those who don't own the In2 Remix album, it would be worth the cost because it was very hard to find (it was never in stores other than if it were a used item somewhere). If they simply re-released Rave Un2 on blue vinyl or something, nope. I already own it on CD & LP. I'm good.

So that's my argument for these three LPs. I don't care about charts, and I refuse to rebuy something I own, especially for the sake of it charting on some arbitrary chart. Rihanna is on those charts, too. And Bieber. So - there's the worthiness of it in general.

TrivialPursuit said:

paddypurple said:

Just buy one of each if you don't already own them. I'm not asking you to buy 10 copies of each or something crazy like that.

OK but you said, "Keep buying all of them so they re-enter the BH200". The selling point wasn't to own Prince music, it was to have it chart. I'm saying most of us don't care about a chart. Prince didn't, but even before he started dismissing the charts, most of us knew it was largely bullshit. The purple vinyl is not a selling point, it's a gimmick.

Purple Rain deluxe had extras. The vinyl was 180g and remastered (albeit badly we found out), the CD had a couple of configurations with the bonus disk and the concert DVD. That is worth my money. Another copy of something I have is insane. Even the upcoming Rave Un2 set isn't worth it, for me. Now, for those who don't own the In2 Remix album, it would be worth the cost because it was very hard to find (it was never in stores other than if it were a used item somewhere). If they simply re-released Rave Un2 on blue vinyl or something, nope. I already own it on CD & LP. I'm good.

So that's my argument for these three LPs. I don't care about charts, and I refuse to rebuy something I own, especially for the sake of it charting on some arbitrary chart. Rihanna is on those charts, too. And Bieber. So - there's the worthiness of it in general.

Prince(r.i.p.) DID care about the charts. He was VERY upset and SO WAS I! When 'Lotusflow3r/MPLSOUND debut @ Number #2 on the Billboard charts in March 2009. When it was set to debut @ Number#1. That is until Keith Urban's record company Capital Records stepped in and made sure Prince didn't get that number 1 spot. Because he was an independent artist with ONE retailer Target. Prince(r.i.p.)still OUTSOLD Keith's album that had MULTIPLE retailers.

It really showed how corrupt the music industry is.

[Edited 2/10/19 22:39pm]

ChocolateBox3121 said:

TrivialPursuit said:

OK but you said, "Keep buying all of them so they re-enter the BH200". The selling point wasn't to own Prince music, it was to have it chart. I'm saying most of us don't care about a chart. Prince didn't, but even before he started dismissing the charts, most of us knew it was largely bullshit. The purple vinyl is not a selling point, it's a gimmick.

Purple Rain deluxe had extras. The vinyl was 180g and remastered (albeit badly we found out), the CD had a couple of configurations with the bonus disk and the concert DVD. That is worth my money. Another copy of something I have is insane. Even the upcoming Rave Un2 set isn't worth it, for me. Now, for those who don't own the In2 Remix album, it would be worth the cost because it was very hard to find (it was never in stores other than if it were a used item somewhere). If they simply re-released Rave Un2 on blue vinyl or something, nope. I already own it on CD & LP. I'm good.

So that's my argument for these three LPs. I don't care about charts, and I refuse to rebuy something I own, especially for the sake of it charting on some arbitrary chart. Rihanna is on those charts, too. And Bieber. So - there's the worthiness of it in general.

Prince(r.i.p.) DID care about the charts. He was VERY upset and SO WAS I. When 'Lotusflow3r/MPLSOUND debut @ Number #2 on the Billboard charts in March 2009. When it was set to debut @ Number#1. That is until Keith Urban's record company Capital Records stepped in and made sure Prince didn't get that number 1 spot. Because he was an independent artist with ONE retailer. Target.

I'm going to argue that Prince didn't care enough about chart position, other wise he would've played "nicer" all across the board.

Wouldn't have released certain projects.

And definitely would've capitalized more on the success of Purprle Rain.

Like Camille Paglia stated he seemed to have lost interest. Definitely lost interest on making an impact on the charts.

I ain't buying what I already own...

CynicKill said:

NorthC said:

If you're upset because an album you like didn't chart as high as you thought it would, then you might need help (psychologically.)

So your calling Prince(r.i.p.) PSYCHO?!

MIRvmn said:

CynicKill said:

I'm going to argue that Prince didn't care enough about chart position, other wise he would've played "nicer" all across the board.

Wouldn't have released certain projects.

And definitely would've capitalized more on the success of Purprle Rain.

Like Camille Paglia stated he seemed to have lost interest. Definitely lost interest on making an impact on the charts.

Yes I don't think Prince cared enough about the charts positions after Musicology and 3121. Especially not with all the wierd distribution methods and lack of promotion.

ChocolateBox3121 said:

TrivialPursuit said:

OK but you said, "Keep buying all of them so they re-enter the BH200". The selling point wasn't to own Prince music, it was to have it chart. I'm saying most of us don't care about a chart. Prince didn't, but even before he started dismissing the charts, most of us knew it was largely bullshit. The purple vinyl is not a selling point, it's a gimmick.

Purple Rain deluxe had extras. The vinyl was 180g and remastered (albeit badly we found out), the CD had a couple of configurations with the bonus disk and the concert DVD. That is worth my money. Another copy of something I have is insane. Even the upcoming Rave Un2 set isn't worth it, for me. Now, for those who don't own the In2 Remix album, it would be worth the cost because it was very hard to find (it was never in stores other than if it were a used item somewhere). If they simply re-released Rave Un2 on blue vinyl or something, nope. I already own it on CD & LP. I'm good.

So that's my argument for these three LPs. I don't care about charts, and I refuse to rebuy something I own, especially for the sake of it charting on some arbitrary chart. Rihanna is on those charts, too. And Bieber. So - there's the worthiness of it in general.

Prince(r.i.p.) DID care about the charts. He was VERY upset and SO WAS I. When 'Lotusflow3r/MPLSOUND debut @ Number #2 on the Billboard charts in March 2009. When it was set to debut @ Number#1. That is until Keith Urban's record company Capital Records stepped in and made sure Prince didn't get that number 1 spot. Because he was an independent artist with ONE retailer. Target.

I agree with you

Instead of buying meaningless reissues I'd invest the money in Revolution and/or NPG concert tickets.

.

If, on the other hand, something different/new is on them CD's...

udo said:

Instead of buying meaningless reissues I'd invest the money in Revolution and/or NPG concert tickets.

.

If, on the other hand, something different/new is on them CD's...

hell no...give it to charity

I'll buy them again since I don't have the vinyls. And all the others that get a vinyl pressing that I don't have. And I'll buy them all again when we finally get expanded versions. He's gone, damn it, this is all I have now!

Kares said:

coldasice said:

databank said:

coldasice said:

I agree. None of that was sourced from a master.

Vault tapes are not "masters".

.

We would require at least a non-cassette source (on wider, thicker studio tape) at certain tape speeds.

You're not the boss of me.

ChocolateBox3121 said:

NorthC said:

If you're upset because an album you like didn't chart as high as you thought it would, then you might need help (psychologically.)

So your calling Prince(r.i.p.) PSYCHO?!

Yup. And a few of his fans are.