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Reply #390 posted 02/28/19 12:42pm

ISaidLifeIsJus
tAGame

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nelcp777 said:

ISaidLifeIsJustAGame said:



We don't know whether Kirk was permitted into P's private quarters, and Kirk may have just cleaned the common areas.

True. I may be reading more into Manuela's statement to law enforcement. But Her saying Kirk looked in the bag and did not find the bottles made me think Kirk was in the private quarters.

Kirk would have had to access it when Prince was not around and the day of the 20th. I say the 20th, cos we know that dialud was in his system.



Well, M2 also said she had the name of P's drug dealer and that didnt pan out.

I have found several articles that discusses hydrocodone metabolizing to hydromorphone in urine. So it may vey well be P didnt take dilaudid.

Here are links to two articles:



https://academic.oup.com/jat/article/36/4/257/806349

https://www.practicalpainmanagement.com/treatments/pharmacological/opioids/why-there-hydromorphone-patient-urine

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Reply #391 posted 02/28/19 1:45pm

rednblue

peggyon said:

A story about tolerance. The other day, while rounding with one of the MD's, we met with a patient who was in withdrawal from alcohol though his blood alcohol level was 4 x the legal limit!

His body was used to such large amounts of alcohol that he would withdraw while at a really high blood alcohol level. Withdrawal is relative to what the body is used to.

I sense Prince was really limping along taking way less than his usual doses until his blood test 4/20, though we are aghast at the levels. He was likely doing 'damage control' here as well. Did the best he could; really needed medical assistance.

The recent interview with Gayle Chapman (towards the end of the second interview) is enlightening.

She seemed very down- to- earth and somewhat detached from the 'whole Prince thing', so I tended to believe her. She talks about his decision to do it 'his way' without the usual controls that most of us mere mortals have.


In withdrawal at 4x the legal limit. What a story! Hope that person's story gets easier, and thank you for noting this: "Withdrawal is relative to what the body is used to."

Enjoy hearing from Gayle Chapman. Agree that she seems down to earth, and like her sense of humor. She can be so funny!

Hope to get time soon to listen to her "Truth in Rhythm" interviews from Funknstuff.net. Peggy -- Are those the ones that you describe above?

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Reply #392 posted 02/28/19 1:49pm

peggyon

ISaidLifeIsJustAGame said:

nelcp777 said:

True. I may be reading more into Manuela's statement to law enforcement. But Her saying Kirk looked in the bag and did not find the bottles made me think Kirk was in the private quarters.

Kirk would have had to access it when Prince was not around and the day of the 20th. I say the 20th, cos we know that dialud was in his system.



Well, M2 also said she had the name of P's drug dealer and that didnt pan out.

I have found several articles that discusses hydrocodone metabolizing to hydromorphone in urine. So it may vey well be P didnt take dilaudid.

Here are links to two articles:



https://academic.oup.com/jat/article/36/4/257/806349

https://www.practicalpainmanagement.com/treatments/pharmacological/opioids/why-there-hydromorphone-patient-urine

I forget, did he undergo a urine or blood test on 4/20?

A blood test should delineate which type of opiate was present.

My concern about Vicodin alone is that it is fairly weak and I think Prince needed stronger opiates at that time, especially if he required that much Narcan for reversal.

Also, Vicodin has acetomeniphen which addicts shy away from as it is toxic to the liver

[Edited 2/28/19 13:57pm]

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Reply #393 posted 02/28/19 1:51pm

peggyon

rednblue said:

peggyon said:

A story about tolerance. The other day, while rounding with one of the MD's, we met with a patient who was in withdrawal from alcohol though his blood alcohol level was 4 x the legal limit!

His body was used to such large amounts of alcohol that he would withdraw while at a really high blood alcohol level. Withdrawal is relative to what the body is used to.

I sense Prince was really limping along taking way less than his usual doses until his blood test 4/20, though we are aghast at the levels. He was likely doing 'damage control' here as well. Did the best he could; really needed medical assistance.

The recent interview with Gayle Chapman (towards the end of the second interview) is enlightening.

She seemed very down- to- earth and somewhat detached from the 'whole Prince thing', so I tended to believe her. She talks about his decision to do it 'his way' without the usual controls that most of us mere mortals have.


In withdrawal at 4x the legal limit. What a story! Hope that person's story gets easier, and thank you for noting this: "Withdrawal is relative to what the body is used to."

Enjoy hearing from Gayle Chapman. Agree that she seems down to earth, and like her sense of humor. She can be so funny!

Hope to get time soon to listen to her "Truth in Rhythm" interviews from Funknstuff.net. Peggy -- Are those the ones that you describe above?

The interview is present in the Associated Artists forum. It seems to be fairly recent.

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Reply #394 posted 02/28/19 2:03pm

rednblue

peggyon said:

rednblue said:


In withdrawal at 4x the legal limit. What a story! Hope that person's story gets easier, and thank you for noting this: "Withdrawal is relative to what the body is used to."

Enjoy hearing from Gayle Chapman. Agree that she seems down to earth, and like her sense of humor. She can be so funny!

Hope to get time soon to listen to her "Truth in Rhythm" interviews from Funknstuff.net. Peggy -- Are those the ones that you describe above?

The interview is present in the Associated Artists forum. It seems to be fairly recent.


Hope to listen in next day or two. Thanks!

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Reply #395 posted 02/28/19 4:10pm

PennyPurple

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He had both tests done on the 20th. The UA Dr S had the results for the next morning that he was taking to PP, the bloodwork hadn't came back yet, at the time Dr. S was at PP.

peggyon said:

ISaidLifeIsJustAGame said:



Well, M2 also said she had the name of P's drug dealer and that didnt pan out.

I have found several articles that discusses hydrocodone metabolizing to hydromorphone in urine. So it may vey well be P didnt take dilaudid.

Here are links to two articles:



https://academic.oup.com/jat/article/36/4/257/806349

https://www.practicalpainmanagement.com/treatments/pharmacological/opioids/why-there-hydromorphone-patient-urine

I forget, did he undergo a urine or blood test on 4/20?

A blood test should delineate which type of opiate was present.

My concern about Vicodin alone is that it is fairly weak and I think Prince needed stronger opiates at that time, especially if he required that much Narcan for reversal.

Also, Vicodin has acetomeniphen which addicts shy away from as it is toxic to the liver

[Edited 2/28/19 13:57pm]

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Reply #396 posted 02/28/19 4:36pm

peggyon

PennyPurple said:

He had both tests done on the 20th. The UA Dr S had the results for the next morning that he was taking to PP, the bloodwork hadn't came back yet, at the time Dr. S was at PP.

peggyon said:

I forget, did he undergo a urine or blood test on 4/20?

A blood test should delineate which type of opiate was present.

My concern about Vicodin alone is that it is fairly weak and I think Prince needed stronger opiates at that time, especially if he required that much Narcan for reversal.

Also, Vicodin has acetomeniphen which addicts shy away from as it is toxic to the liver

[Edited 2/28/19 13:57pm]

But the blood test results eventually did come back showing both Hydrocodone/Hydromophone?

Or was it the UA? And was it confirmed by the bloodwork? I am asking because blood tests are much more accurate.

Sorry, Penny, I did not save the files.

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Reply #397 posted 02/28/19 5:32pm

PennyPurple

avatar

peggyon said:

PennyPurple said:

He had both tests done on the 20th. The UA Dr S had the results for the next morning that he was taking to PP, the bloodwork hadn't came back yet, at the time Dr. S was at PP.

But the blood test results eventually did come back showing both Hydrocodone/Hydromophone?

Or was it the UA? And was it confirmed by the bloodwork? I am asking because blood tests are much more accurate.

Sorry, Penny, I did not save the files.

I think the UA showed both. I don't know about the bloodwork if it is in the files or not. When I have some time I'll have to check.

A MASK ISN'T TOO MUCH TO ASK!!
JJPOPPYSBOMBSQUAD #OPINIONSMATTER
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Reply #398 posted 02/28/19 6:28pm

peggyon

PennyPurple said:

peggyon said:

But the blood test results eventually did come back showing both Hydrocodone/Hydromophone?

Or was it the UA? And was it confirmed by the bloodwork? I am asking because blood tests are much more accurate.

Sorry, Penny, I did not save the files.

I think the UA showed both. I don't know about the bloodwork if it is in the files or not. When I have some time I'll have to check.

I just read most of the files in the NY Times version. Hopefully, it is complete. (eyes are blurry)

UA does mention being + for hydromorphone/hydrocodone (levels verified on 4/25)

-4/20 bloodwork returned. ME only stated there was no Fentanyl. Did not mention other opiates.

- ME stated that her bloodwork showed no Vicodin on 4/21. UA was positive though.

-Had 1-2 IV's with Dr S. May have flushed things.

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Reply #399 posted 02/28/19 6:36pm

PennyPurple

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peggyon said:

PennyPurple said:

I think the UA showed both. I don't know about the bloodwork if it is in the files or not. When I have some time I'll have to check.

I just read most of the files in the NY Times version. Hopefully, it is complete. (eyes are blurry)

UA does mention being + for hydromorphone/hydrocodone (levels verified on 4/25)

-4/20 bloodwork returned. ME only stated there was no Fentanyl. Did not mention other opiates.

- ME stated that her bloodwork showed no Vicodin on 4/21. UA was positive though.

-Had 1-2 IV's with Dr S. May have flushed things.

So would that mean that the pill was all fentanyl then no codene?

A MASK ISN'T TOO MUCH TO ASK!!
JJPOPPYSBOMBSQUAD #OPINIONSMATTER
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Reply #400 posted 02/28/19 6:53pm

peggyon

PennyPurple said:

peggyon said:

I just read most of the files in the NY Times version. Hopefully, it is complete. (eyes are blurry)

UA does mention being + for hydromorphone/hydrocodone (levels verified on 4/25)

-4/20 bloodwork returned. ME only stated there was no Fentanyl. Did not mention other opiates.

- ME stated that her bloodwork showed no Vicodin on 4/21. UA was positive though.

-Had 1-2 IV's with Dr S. May have flushed things.

So would that mean that the pill was all fentanyl then no codene?

Not sure.

I am thinking now about what LIJAG said about hydrocodone metabolizing into hydromorphone?

I only skimmed it but it does seem feasible. Maybe he did not take Dilaudid (post-Moline)

I just can't get my head around him only taking Vicodin (post-Moline) which is a wimpy drug.

If it was only Vicodin, the blood levels were high, so he seems to have taken alot. And, how did his bloodwork show no Vicodin for the ME on 4/21?? + UA though.

Also, maybe this was his way of proving to us that he could have taken a "Vicodin" by mistake. (The one that killed him) . I have to be honest, I feel he was in complete control of all of it.

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Reply #401 posted 02/28/19 7:37pm

peggyon

i'm going to call it a night. I will look for the ME notes re: No Hydrocodone (vicodin) in his blood.

May take a day or two.

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Reply #402 posted 02/28/19 7:45pm

rednblue

peggyon said:

PennyPurple said:

So would that mean that the pill was all fentanyl then no codene?

Not sure.

I am thinking now about what LIJAG said about hydrocodone metabolizing into hydromorphone?

I only skimmed it but it does seem feasible. Maybe he did not take Dilaudid (post-Moline)

I just can't get my head around him only taking Vicodin (post-Moline) which is a wimpy drug.

If it was only Vicodin, the blood levels were high, so he seems to have taken alot. And, how did his bloodwork show no Vicodin for the ME on 4/21?? + UA though.

Also, maybe this was his way of proving to us that he could have taken a "Vicodin" by mistake. (The one that killed him) . I have to be honest, I feel he was in complete control of all of it.

dupe

[Edited 2/28/19 20:00pm]

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Reply #403 posted 02/28/19 7:59pm

rednblue

rednblue said:

peggyon said:

Not sure.

I am thinking now about what LIJAG said about hydrocodone metabolizing into hydromorphone?

I only skimmed it but it does seem feasible. Maybe he did not take Dilaudid (post-Moline)

I just can't get my head around him only taking Vicodin (post-Moline) which is a wimpy drug.

If it was only Vicodin, the blood levels were high, so he seems to have taken alot. And, how did his bloodwork show no Vicodin for the ME on 4/21?? + UA though.

Also, maybe this was his way of proving to us that he could have taken a "Vicodin" by mistake. (The one that killed him) . I have to be honest, I feel he was in complete control of all of it.

Interesting. Others have mentioned great control over all of it, or everything. My response is to ask if people mean he seemed to have precise control over the way opiate use played out over the whole of the last decade or so? That he may have considered his pattern of use over years to be his best option, and that he executed that option as a controlled regime of targeted doses over that time? So that he controlled things to happen so that he was always where he "targeted " to be in life?

Or by "complete control" of all of it, were you thinking of a much shorter period of time?

[Edited 2/28/19 20:01pm]

[Edited 2/28/19 20:11pm]

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Reply #404 posted 02/28/19 8:09pm

peggyon

rednblue said:

peggyon said:

Not sure.

I am thinking now about what LIJAG said about hydrocodone metabolizing into hydromorphone?

I only skimmed it but it does seem feasible. Maybe he did not take Dilaudid (post-Moline)

I just can't get my head around him only taking Vicodin (post-Moline) which is a wimpy drug.

If it was only Vicodin, the blood levels were high, so he seems to have taken alot. And, how did his bloodwork show no Vicodin for the ME on 4/21?? + UA though.

Also, maybe this was his way of proving to us that he could have taken a "Vicodin" by mistake. (The one that killed him) . I have to be honest, I feel he was in complete control of all of it.

Interesting. Others have mentioned great control over all of it, or everything. My response is to ask if people mean he seemed to have precise control over the way opiate use played out over the whole of the last decade? That he may have considered his pattern of use over years to be his best option, and that he executed that option as a controlled regime of targeted doses over that time?

Or by "complete control" of all of it, were you thinking of a much shorter period of time?

Gosh, not sure. I just don't think Prince left things to chance.

I am only speaking of his last year. He did not want us to know about his drug use and perhaps he felt ashamed and also did not want his legacy tarnished after all he had put into it. Personally, I also thought he was ill.

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Reply #405 posted 02/28/19 8:18pm

PennyPurple

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I'm still undecided on the, he meant to do it thing.

Of course, as I'm finding out, I'm not a very good judge on character anymore. sad

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Reply #406 posted 02/28/19 8:25pm

peggyon

PennyPurple said:

I'm still undecided on the, he meant to do it thing.

Of course, as I'm finding out, I'm not a very good judge on character anymore. sad

Who's character? Oh, I think I know

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Reply #407 posted 02/28/19 8:33pm

rednblue

peggyon said:



rednblue said:




peggyon said:




Not sure.



I am thinking now about what LIJAG said about hydrocodone metabolizing into hydromorphone?


I only skimmed it but it does seem feasible. Maybe he did not take Dilaudid (post-Moline)



I just can't get my head around him only taking Vicodin (post-Moline) which is a wimpy drug.


If it was only Vicodin, the blood levels were high, so he seems to have taken alot. And, how did his bloodwork show no Vicodin for the ME on 4/21?? + UA though.



Also, maybe this was his way of proving to us that he could have taken a "Vicodin" by mistake. (The one that killed him) . I have to be honest, I feel he was in complete control of all of it.








Interesting. Others have mentioned great control over all of it, or everything. My response is to ask if people mean he seemed to have precise control over the way opiate use played out over the whole of the last decade? That he may have considered his pattern of use over years to be his best option, and that he executed that option as a controlled regime of targeted doses over that time?

Or by "complete control" of all of it, were you thinking of a much shorter period of time?






Gosh, not sure. I just don't think Prince left things to chance.


I am only speaking of his last year. He did not want us to know about his drug use and perhaps he felt ashamed and also did not want his legacy tarnished after all he had put into it. Personally, I also thought he was ill.




I’m not sure either. I don’t get the sense that people here would be thrown by the idea of P not always able to control things in life well, but some fans seem to love marveling at, and adoring the idea of, P as an absolute control master. I hope people like P know it’s OK and human to struggle a lot to control things at times, and that it’s not the end of the world if others detect a lack of control.

It's complicated though, as some seem to really crave control over every aspect of their lives.

Also, for people in situations like this...hope they can let go of shame that isn’t making anything better.

As you noted above, wish he and his circumstances had allowed for continuing guidance of skilled medical people.
[Edited 3/1/19 6:26am]
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Reply #408 posted 02/28/19 8:46pm

ISaidLifeIsJus
tAGame

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peggyon said:

PennyPurple said:

I think the UA showed both. I don't know about the bloodwork if it is in the files or not. When I have some time I'll have to check.

I just read most of the files in the NY Times version. Hopefully, it is complete. (eyes are blurry)

UA does mention being + for hydromorphone/hydrocodone (levels verified on 4/25)

-4/20 bloodwork returned. ME only stated there was no Fentanyl. Did not mention other opiates.

- ME stated that her bloodwork showed no Vicodin on 4/21. UA was positive though.

-Had 1-2 IV's with Dr S. May have flushed things.





-We saw his actual medical records from Moline but the investigative file didnt include the actual blood test printout from Dr. S. Hmmm.......



[Edited 3/1/19 11:45am]

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Reply #409 posted 02/28/19 9:14pm

peggyon

ISaidLifeIsJustAGame said:

peggyon said:

I just read most of the files in the NY Times version. Hopefully, it is complete. (eyes are blurry)

UA does mention being + for hydromorphone/hydrocodone (levels verified on 4/25)

-4/20 bloodwork returned. ME only stated there was no Fentanyl. Did not mention other opiates.

- ME stated that her bloodwork showed no Vicodin on 4/21. UA was positive though.

-Had 1-2 IV's with Dr S. May have flushed things.



-The records show the autopsy urine contained both Oxycodone (Percocet) and Hydrocodone (Vicodin.) P's Blood tested positive for Fentanyl only.

-We saw his actual medical records from Moline but the investigative file didnt include the actual blood test printout from Dr. S. Hmmm.......

Hmmm, as well.

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Reply #410 posted 02/28/19 11:22pm

peggyon

ISaidLifeIsJustAGame said:

peggyon said:

I just read most of the files in the NY Times version. Hopefully, it is complete. (eyes are blurry)

UA does mention being + for hydromorphone/hydrocodone (levels verified on 4/25)

-4/20 bloodwork returned. ME only stated there was no Fentanyl. Did not mention other opiates.

- ME stated that her bloodwork showed no Vicodin on 4/21. UA was positive though.

-Had 1-2 IV's with Dr S. May have flushed things.



-The records show the autopsy urine contained both Oxycodone (Percocet) and Hydrocodone (Vicodin.) P's Blood tested positive for Fentanyl only.

-We saw his actual medical records from Moline but the investigative file didnt include the actual blood test printout from Dr. S. Hmmm.......

As I was perusing the NYTimes Death Investigation files again tonight, on page 31,it stated per Dr Strobel, urine autopsy results showed Hydrocodone. No mention of Oxycodone. Also, interestingly, no Hydrocodone in the blood.

Did I miss something?

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Reply #411 posted 03/01/19 10:05am

ISaidLifeIsJus
tAGame

avatar

peggyon said:

As I was perusing the NYTimes Death Investigation files again tonight, on page 31,it stated per Dr Strobel, urine autopsy results showed Hydrocodone. No mention of Oxycodone. Also, interestingly, no Hydrocodone in the blood.

Did I miss something?



You are right, I was looking at the wrong section. It was Dr. S who said the blood results came back as positive for Percs and Vicodin. I should edit my post. I dont want to mislead.




[Edited 3/1/19 10:12am]

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Reply #412 posted 03/01/19 4:56pm

peggyon

ISaidLifeIsJustAGame said:

peggyon said:

As I was perusing the NYTimes Death Investigation files again tonight, on page 31,it stated per Dr Strobel, urine autopsy results showed Hydrocodone. No mention of Oxycodone. Also, interestingly, no Hydrocodone in the blood.

Did I miss something?



You are right, I was looking at the wrong section. It was Dr. S who said the blood results came back as positive for Percs and Vicodin. I should edit my post. I dont want to mislead.




[Edited 3/1/19 10:12am]

No worries, there is so much to keep track of.

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Reply #413 posted 03/01/19 6:07pm

peggyon

Is someone paying us for this? JK...

[Edited 3/1/19 18:09pm]

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Reply #414 posted 03/01/19 8:04pm

PennyPurple

avatar

peggyon said:

Is someone paying us for this? JK...

[Edited 3/1/19 18:09pm]

lol

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Reply #415 posted 03/02/19 9:19am

peggyon

As LIJAG mentioned, we don't have complete results from Dr. S's labwork 4/20.

(blood); just no Fentanyl. Does not mention presence/no presence of other opiates.

-4/21, ME states no sign of Vicodin in blood, though pos for urine. High dose of Fentanyl

-ME stated that P took Fent orally but I don't get the sense it was many pills. Wouldn't they have shown in gastric fluid as they would not have had time to digest?? (Please fee free to jump in here, anyone, as this is only surmising on my part)

- ME said, no Vicodin in blood (4/21) so likely he only took Fentanyl on 4/21

(once again no mention of other opiates in blood, which was either another incomplete report or there was only Vicodin present)

-I would imagine that ME blood tests would be top-of-the-line.

-In summary, I am wondering if he did only take Vicodin post-Moline (no Dilaudid)?

-He seems to have taken alot re: urine test 4/20., No discussion of blood-work findings 4/20 (just no Fent)

Perhaps, he stopped taking anything for 1-3 days pre-4/20 blood test? (just don't have Dr S blood result, but no Vic in blood 4/21)

Only wanted Vicodin to show in blood, not anything stronger like Oxy/Fent?

Could he then, after setting stage with the above, felt that, he could now take Fent (big dose) and make it seem accidental? ("He only reached for a Vicodin")

I also find it interesting that much stronger drugs are made to look like the much weaker Vicodin.

I think his addiction had surpassed the Vicodin stage.

PennyPurple said:

peggyon said:

I just read most of the files in the NY Times version. Hopefully, it is complete. (eyes are blurry)

UA does mention being + for hydromorphone/hydrocodone (levels verified on 4/25)

-4/20 bloodwork returned. ME only stated there was no Fentanyl. Did not mention other opiates.

- ME stated that her bloodwork showed no Vicodin on 4/21. UA was positive though.

-Had 1-2 IV's with Dr S. May have flushed things.

So would that mean that the pill was all fentanyl then no codene?

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Reply #416 posted 03/02/19 9:38am

peggyon

On the other hand, if he did this intentionally, why leave so many pills (+ for Fentanyl ) in plain view?

Also, after being in mod withdrawal that day (4/20) would he have reached for 1 Vicodin? I think he would have gone for something stronger like Oxy or ?

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Reply #417 posted 03/02/19 10:03am

luvsexy4all

with all the cover ups ..how can u believe even this info? what they want u to know is being furnished

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Reply #418 posted 03/02/19 1:13pm

peggyon

luvsexy4all said:

with all the cover ups ..how can u believe even this info? what they want u to know is being furnished

Could be very true...I do feel quasi- confident about the urine test on 4/20, though. Don't think Fentanyl OD is untrue; that and the amount he took could have been covered-up with something less alarming.

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Reply #419 posted 03/03/19 10:59am

simm0061

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PennyPurple said:

I think if Prince set himself on this path, he would have been on the hardcore stuff. Oxycontin.

Percocets and Vicodins are childs play compared to Oxycontin.

Percocet is stronger than oxy. Percocet is basically oxy plus tylenol. If you are allegic to tylenol then a pain dr. will usually perscribe Oxycontin and extra strength ibuprofen instead of percocet.

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