jcurley said:

NouveauDance said:

I don't understand the snobbery towards MJ, especially in a thread about an album that contains Jughead and Daddy Pop.

Well its perfectly consistent. Prince fans in the main-including me- slag off D&P. I've only ever been conscious of MJ because of that 80's comparison nonsense. Even Thriller passed me by coz I was too young. However it wouod have been too juvenile for me anyway. MJ sales were at the time were very much targeted to the dusposable income of children. Prince brcame a superstar on a 15 certificate movie etc. For a 12 yr old that was far more intriguing. MJ fans have never allowed me to enjoy his music at the level its meant to be enjoyed due to this ludicrous comparison. It makes you scrutinise it too much and it wasn't made for such analysis. It's pure pop and very targeted as a product. So I end up dismissing it instead of letting it wash over me as intended. Simply because of that comparison which is desperately unfair to Prince's mysical capabilities.

No

Blame the music press in the 80s for feeling the need to compare them simply because they're two black men who were adrogynous, both great singers and dancers and were successful. Blame the fanbases for falling for the bait keeping the BS alive all these years

That has nothing to do with you constantly dismissing Jackson's own skills and talents in every post you make in reference to him.

Every time I've seen you comment on MJ, it's "He wasn't a real artist", "He had minimum input", and other criticisms. It's bullshit especially when it's well known Jackson had way more than "minimal" input in his work and while he wasn't the instrumentalist that Prince was (Let's be honest, who was?"), to say he wasn't a real artist dismisses the fact that he wrote many of his songs, produced or co-produced a lot of his work and for others, and knew how to craft a song without the assistance of others along with his other skills invalidates such statements.

You don't have to like the man or his work, but to constantly diminish his talent just over a stupid comparison from 35 years ago?

bboy87 said:

jcurley said:

bboy87 said:

No

Blame the music press in the 80s for feeling the need to compare them simply because they're two black men who were adrogynous, both great singers and dancers and were successful. Blame the fanbases for falling for the bait keeping the BS alive all these years

That has nothing to do with you constantly dismissing Jackson's own skills and talents in every post you make in reference to him.

Every time I've seen you comment on MJ, it's "He wasn't a real artist", "He had minimum input", and other criticisms. It's bullshit especially when it's well known Jackson had way more than "minimal" input in his work and while he wasn't the instrumentalist that Prince was (Let's be honest, who was?"), to say he wasn't a real artist dismisses the fact that he wrote many of his songs, produced or co-produced a lot of his work and for others, and knew how to craft a song without the assistance of others along with his other skills invalidates such statements.

You don't have to like the man or his work, but to constantly diminish his talent just over a stupid comparison from 35 years ago?

Its true about the media but it gets cinstantly reinforced on here. Hence this conversation. Why aren't we goung on about Madonna or cyndi lauper etc if it's not because of the comparisons people in the org make. In terms of MJ input even if it were true it doesn't bear comparison. Alsi U don't believe it either. He didn't come from a background where it would be even consudered to write. Also with his fame his accreditation woukdnt have been si gradyal. If he coukd do it he would have been given bigger scope far sooner. Copyright prices nothing. Madonna gets producer credits...the spice girls and elvis get writing credits. Its all nonsense and even if it wasn't talking of Prince dies not require any or cinsrant references to MJ. I go on Mozart.org to do that. I worship MJ on there!!

It's not about believing, it's about knowing. Knowing surface level about MJ's work and assuming he had minimal input is why we've having this discussion. This is not me just being a fan blindly defending the guy. I know what I'm talking about.

It doesn't take much to look into Jackson's work and see how involved he was after he left Motown with his brothers when he was 17. Nobody's comparing or should compare as Prince was essentially a one man band. That was and still is a rarity in music. Jackson thrived and encouraged collaboration with others. Just because he didn't "do it all" doesn' invalidate or negate his talent or creative input. Not everyone is a one man band or even wants to be.

After the age of 17, he wasn't just some singer who stood in a recording booth and sang what was given to him. Anything to the contrary is absolute bullshit.

You say it's all nonsense but you make assumptions that are based on opinion and surface level knowledge. You're not a fan of the guy, cool.... but making inaccurate statements just out of annoyance is problematic

Prince is a genius and will be one without people dismissing others's work while propping him up.

Love me some MJ as a kid... Still love his old stuff... But damn, after getting into Prince, MJ's songwriting is cringeworthy Thank God he has a voice that can make any word he sings into a hit

bboy87 said:

feeluupp said:

Love me some MJ as a kid... Still love his old stuff... But damn, after getting into Prince, MJ's songwriting is cringeworthy Thank God he has a voice that can make any word he sings into a hit

Different approaches to the craft IMO I think he was a great writer and got better as time went on but I respect that others feel like you do. Songs like That's What You Get For Being Polite, Stranger In Moscow, Money and others are good examples

I enjoy reading lyrics and learning how people approach them. Brian Wilson has become a favorite of mine

Prince was a master, especially with ballads

[Edited 12/29/18 17:00pm]

bboy87 said:

feeluupp said:

Love me some MJ as a kid... Still love his old stuff... But damn, after getting into Prince, MJ's songwriting is cringeworthy Thank God he has a voice that can make any word he sings into a hit

Different approaches to the craft IMO I think he was a great writer and got better as time went on but I respect that others feel like you do. Songs like That's What You Get For Being Polite, Stranger In Moscow, Money and others are good examples

Actually with all due respect I think those songs are terrible examples of "good songwriting" especially from MJ... Those songs are extremely corny... Not as corny as Heal The World... But anyway, MJ was always great at the delivery, hell look at a song like Smooth Criminal, the whole song is Annie r u ok?

My favorite songs of MJ were the ones he didn't write... So much imagery in Human Nature... If this town is just an apple, then let me take a bite... Love that song.

feeluupp said:

bboy87 said:

Different approaches to the craft IMO I think he was a great writer and got better as time went on but I respect that others feel like you do. Songs like That's What You Get For Being Polite, Stranger In Moscow, Money and others are good examples

Actually with all due respect I think those songs are terrible examples of "good songwriting" especially from MJ... Those songs are extremely corny... Not as corny as Heal The World... But anyway, MJ was always great at the delivery, hell look at a song like Smooth Criminal, the whole song is Annie r u ok?

My favorite songs of MJ were the ones he didn't write... So much imagery in Human Nature... If this town is just an apple, then let me take a bite... Love that song.

I'll disagree as well I don't want to derail this thread any more than it has but....yeah, those are just a few I like so I disagree

respectfully of course

bboy87 said:

feeluupp said:

Actually with all due respect I think those songs are terrible examples of "good songwriting" especially from MJ... Those songs are extremely corny... Not as corny as Heal The World... But anyway, MJ was always great at the delivery, hell look at a song like Smooth Criminal, the whole song is Annie r u ok?

My favorite songs of MJ were the ones he didn't write... So much imagery in Human Nature... If this town is just an apple, then let me take a bite... Love that song.

I'll disagree as well I don't want to derail this thread any more than it has but....yeah, those are just a few I like so I disagree

respectfully of course

MJ is still my SECOND favorite artist...

[Edited 12/29/18 17:38pm]

feeluupp said:

bboy87 said:

I'll disagree as well I don't want to derail this thread any more than it has but....yeah, those are just a few I like so I disagree

respectfully of course

MJ is still my SECOND favorite artist...

[Edited 12/29/18 17:38pm]

I wasn't arguing that

Just saying we respectfully disagree

feeluupp said:

michael was a potent package of artistry case closed, no need to hate one or the other.

Prince hired Frank because he was tired of seeing his albums have one successfu first single,while the subsequent singles flopped (this happened with Lovesexy and GB).He wanted an album with four or five big hit singles and he achieved that with D&P,largely thanks to Dileo.

SoulAlive said:

Prince hired Frank because he was tired of seeing his albums have one successfu first single,while the subsequent singles flopped (this happened with Lovesexy and GB).He wanted an album with four or five big hit singles and he achieved that with D&P,largely thanks to Dileo.

wasn't he the guy who picked the singles to release on his albums? I heard Prince disasterously chose the singles from SOTT for radio. It'll never make sense how he did a lot of things. I know he was an artist and once a project was completed he was ready to move on but that's not how the business works. WB had their hands full with the guy.

PeteSilas said:

SoulAlive said:

Prince hired Frank because he was tired of seeing his albums have one successfu first single,while the subsequent singles flopped (this happened with Lovesexy and GB).He wanted an album with four or five big hit singles and he achieved that with D&P,largely thanks to Dileo.

wasn't he the guy who picked the singles to release on his albums? I heard Prince disasterously chose the singles from SOTT for radio. It'll never make sense how he did a lot of things. I know he was an artist and once a project was completed he was ready to move on but that's not how the business works. WB had their hands full with the guy.

Frank basically chose and planned everything during the D&P era... Everything but the assless pants

But yes he chose all the singles in addition to choosing 7 as the first single for Love Symbol but Prince refused and fired Frank, and Love Symbol never lived up to the 5 million or more sales that his infamous WB contract required...

feeluupp said:

PeteSilas said:

wasn't he the guy who picked the singles to release on his albums? I heard Prince disasterously chose the singles from SOTT for radio. It'll never make sense how he did a lot of things. I know he was an artist and once a project was completed he was ready to move on but that's not how the business works. WB had their hands full with the guy.

Frank basically chose and planned everything during the D&P era... Everything but the assless pants

But yes he chose all the singles in addition to choosing 7 as the first single for Love Symbol but Prince refused and fired Frank, and Love Symbol never lived up to the 5 million or more sales that his infamous WB contract required...

i'm not arguing, i'm saying i thought Prince usually picked the singles pre-frank, he did a shitty job. and 7 was a damn sight better than my name is prince which is still near the top of my least favorite prince songs. tommy barbarella spoke of his dissapointment with prince using that over the stuff the whole band had labored over.

feeluupp said:

PeteSilas said:

wasn't he the guy who picked the singles to release on his albums? I heard Prince disasterously chose the singles from SOTT for radio. It'll never make sense how he did a lot of things. I know he was an artist and once a project was completed he was ready to move on but that's not how the business works. WB had their hands full with the guy.

Frank basically chose and planned everything during the D&P era... Everything but the assless pants

But yes he chose all the singles in addition to choosing 7 as the first single for Love Symbol but Prince refused and fired Frank, and Love Symbol never lived up to the 5 million or more sales that his infamous WB contract required...

wow....Love Symbol might have been just as big as D&P if Prince had listened to Frank.Throughout his career,Prince had a "artist knows best" mentality and it often worked against him.

SoulAlive said:

feeluupp said:

Frank basically chose and planned everything during the D&P era... Everything but the assless pants

But yes he chose all the singles in addition to choosing 7 as the first single for Love Symbol but Prince refused and fired Frank, and Love Symbol never lived up to the 5 million or more sales that his infamous WB contract required...

wow....Love Symbol might have been just as big as D&P if Prince had listened to Frank.Throughout his career,Prince had a "artist knows best" mentality and it often worked against him.

Do I think it would've been just as big as D&P... Not really... However I do believe if Frank was not fired by Prince, it would've sold at least 5 million... WB would be pleased... Next album, no changing your name to a symbol and contract fued... Oh who am I to be kidding...

feeluupp said:

SoulAlive said:

wow....Love Symbol might have been just as big as D&P if Prince had listened to Frank.Throughout his career,Prince had a "artist knows best" mentality and it often worked against him.

Do I think it would've been just as big as D&P... Not really... However I do believe if Frank was not fired by Prince, it would've sold at least 5 million... WB would be pleased... Next album, no changing your name to a symbol and contract fued... Oh who am I to be kidding...

i don't know either way, the album was full of songs that I liked and the one song I never liked was the lead single. Prince did a lot of things that just didn't make sense to anyone.

feeluupp said:

SoulAlive said:

wow....Love Symbol might have been just as big as D&P if Prince had listened to Frank.Throughout his career,Prince had a "artist knows best" mentality and it often worked against him.

Do I think it would've been just as big as D&P... Not really... However I do believe if Frank was not fired by Prince, it would've sold at least 5 million... WB would be pleased... Next album, no changing your name to a symbol and contract fued... Oh who am I to be kidding...

it's interesting to wonder what would have happened if Love Symbol had sold 5 million or more and the singles had done better.Would Prince had gone to war with Warners?

SoulAlive said:

feeluupp said:

Do I think it would've been just as big as D&P... Not really... However I do believe if Frank was not fired by Prince, it would've sold at least 5 million... WB would be pleased... Next album, no changing your name to a symbol and contract fued... Oh who am I to be kidding...

it's interesting to wonder what would have happened if Love Symbol had sold 5 million or more and the singles had done better.Would Prince had gone to war with Warners?

so hard to say, it wasn't a good idea in that unpredictable a business to think anyone but MJ would sell that much, especially consecutively, in those days. Warners sold prince a bill of goods and they knew he couldn't pull it off. even if he had sold five million on it, the next one probably wouldn't have. Prince learned a lot about what he called playing "hide the ball" all in all, inspite of how some people say he was never the same, businesswise, he came out a lot smarter.

It's highly likely that this could be, for no other reason then for all the MJ/ squabbles that went to press back then, and up until they both passed on.

Quincy Jones said that MJ was pissed that Prince created Camille as shade to Michael. What's the connection, you ask? He said Camille is Michael backwards. So ... why not?

PeteSilas said:

^ it's Gett Off.. not Get Off (that's the 1990 b-side - from the New Power Generation maxisingle)

wow u are soooo amateurish..

[Edited 1/7/19 15:23pm]

RODSERLING said:

PeteSilas said:

i'm not arguing, i'm saying i thought Prince usually picked the singles pre-frank, he did a shitty job. and 7 was a damn sight better than my name is prince which is still near the top of my least favorite prince songs. tommy barbarella spoke of his dissapointment with prince using that over the stuff the whole band had labored over.

Dileo Didn t chose the singles for God sake. It was an amateur job to release Get Off 4 months before the album, to release Insatiable, to fuck up the promotion by releasing Sexy MF only 7 months after D&P, and 4 months before LOVESYMBOL. . 7 was never supposed to be the lead single. By the way it would have been a very bad idea, since 7 was a huge flop outside the US, in the contrary of MNIP and Sexy MF. . If D&P s singles were so successful, it was because they were good and radio friendly. Nothing on Lovesexy or GB was radio friendly beside the lead single. . Dileo couldn't have made Lovesexy or GB more successful than it was with this material. But D&P contained more friendly material, more easy to sell and to put on heavy rotations with Payolas.

We can argue this all day long, but the fact is, me or you don't know the exact details if Frank chose this or that. All we know is Prince hired Dileo and the end result is it was Prince's second bigges selling album with over 7.1 Million copies sold to date.

feeluupp said:

RODSERLING said:

feeluupp said:

We can argue this all day long, but the fact is, me or you don't know the exact details if Frank chose this or that. All we know is Prince hired Dileo and the end result is it was Prince's second bigges selling album with over 7.1 Million copies sold to date.

Everybody in 1991 with 7 singles, payola, million dollar music video, could sell 7 millions. . Hell, Sinead O conorr sold 7 millions albums with just Nothing Compares 2 U and it's music video that cost what ? A hundred bucks? LOL . Just like Dileo didn't chose MJ singles, he sure wasn't in charge of the selection of the Prince singles. . He surely advised Prince though. But we saw how Prince received his advices and opinions lol. . Clearly, Dileo was not the type of guy : -Releasing a lead single 4 months before the album, -7 singles in 7 months, - giving up promotion so abruptly to begin a new one - by launching another single 4 months before another album; repeating the same mistake two times in a raw. . He was rather the kind of guy that : - released the lead single only one month before the album to maximize hype and sales - thrown a single at a pace of every 3 or 4 months - making 2 years of promotion for an album . To perform in TV other songs than the current singles was also something that had to piss Dileo off, and that prevented D&P, single and album, from being #1 in the US .

Rod you are missing the point, I already explained it by averaging his album sales from 86-90 with the exception of Batman because the movie and brand promoted the album by itself...

It has nothing to do with everybody in 91 was selling, no, because don't forget how poorly GB sold in 1990. If you're talking about D&P being radio friendly that's why it sold so well... Then what are you going to say about his GENIUS albums in the 80's which not only had radio friendly songs, but spawned iconic hits and songs... Those albums didn't sell as well as D&P. Don't forget SOTT not only was critically claimed as one of the best albums of all times and best albums of the 80's, it had a movie attached to it as well, it still didn't sell as good as D&P.

W&B and Prince wouldn't hire Frank if they stuck to your logic, in 91 everybody is selling well. No. Prince is not everybody, he was an artistic and musical genius which we all know overshadowed his business and promotion logic, hence why he was never consistant in commercial sales like his peers at the time.

Frank is the reason that D&P sold so well period. Right after Frank got fired how many albums did Love Symbol sell, ah more than 5 million less than D&P.

June7 said:

It's highly likely that this could be, for no other reason then for all the MJ/ squabbles that went to press back then, and up until they both passed on.

Quincy Jones said that MJ was pissed that Prince created Camille as shade to Michael. What's the connection, you ask? He said Camille is Michael backwards. So ... why not?

feeluupp said:

Thanks OP, obviously Prince was way better than Michael Jackson, but that's an interesting link. Yeah, I do agree Frank Dil-e-o was a huge reason for those sales, album promotion wasn't one of P's strongest skills.